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johan_frendin
13th October 2002, 06:48
Gassho!

I have practiced Shorinjikempo for many years and visited many different dojos and experienced several types of floor. I practiced on wooden floor, hard mat, soft judo mat, concrete and even grass. There are some advantages and some disadvantages to practicing Shorinjikempo on different material. The soft judo mat are good for beginners ukemi, wooden floor is good for proper footwork and proper stance, concrete are the one of the worst materials as it gives you no cushioning at all, so joints can be hurt. What is your opinion about floor material? What is a ideal Shorinjikempo dojofloor?

Johan Frendin

colin linz
13th October 2002, 09:18
Johan,

I like the wooden floors, probably because I learnt on them. However wooden floors with the interlocking mats are nice when doing a lot of nage waza. They are also good when training beginners in ukemi. Some people become worried about a hard floor when first learning ukemi, and their natural reaction is to become tense, this makes it hard to do a good ukemi, and when they hurt themselves they lose confidence and become more worried.

I have trained on concrete and I agree with you, it’s not good. Concrete floors feel dead, while a sprung wooden floor has some give in it, making it much easier on the bodies connective tissues. This is important when your training frequently as stress fractures, shin splints, tendonitus and other such injuries take along time to heal and can mean absolutely no training until they have.

johan_frendin
16th October 2002, 07:40
Gassho Colin!

I have been visiting and participated a taikai in Great Britain where the embu competition was carried out on concrete. I believe that this would have never happened in an established sports organization. In Shorinjikempo you are not allowed to wear, necklace, rings etc not to hurt yourself and your partner but you can compete on very harmful floors. That is very strange to me.
I believe that WSKO should not have competition in embu or randori on harmful floors like concrete.

Johan Frendin

Kimpatsu
16th October 2002, 08:02
By extension then, Johan, you don't think people should attack you in a bar or on the street unless the sidewalk is springboard, or paved with judo mats?

Kimpatsu
16th October 2002, 09:00
Gassho.
Just to set the record straight, springboard wooden floors such as those found in dance studios are the best. They supply both cushioning and resistance in the right proportions. Concrete and marble may be far from ideal, but as Shorinji Kenshi, we should rise to the challenge.
Kesshu.

johan_frendin
16th October 2002, 09:18
Gassho!
I believe it is very important for a kenshi to know proper nage no ukemi in practice or in embucompetition. It allows your partner to do nage wasa in full speed without hurting you and gives your embu a good flow. But if the dojo floor is concrete you can hurt yourself even if you have a very good nage no ukemi. For that reason I think it is necessary to take in consideration the safety of the kenshi and not compete on concrete in embu.

In self-defense in the street you can forget about doing proper nage no ukemi. Nage no ukemi has evolved trough years of practice not through years of self-defense is my personal opinion.

Johan Frendin

Kimpatsu
16th October 2002, 09:32
Gassho, Johan.
I remember a European training seminar in Paris where the party the night before was held in a lovely banqueting hall, and two French Kenshi performed the Hokei Embu on marble.
Itaso...

colin linz
16th October 2002, 09:46
Johan,

I believe WSKO has safety standards for Randori; these have come about because of injury and death in the past. These standards focus more on protective equipment, I believe that the case of death was caused by being knocked out and falling backwards, hitting the floor with the back of the skull. As for Embu I’m not aware of any.

I don’t necessarily believe that doing an Embu on concrete is that dangerous in it’s self, although I would like to be confident that those that participated had good ukemi skills. Where it would become bad is when you trained on this surface all the time. This could cause any number of overstress injuries.

One of Shorinji Kempo’s main noticeable differences is that we can do Embu on hard surfaces, where other forms of Budo use mats. This adds greatly to the impact of an Embu when shown during combined demonstrations. When people come out and take away the mats for our Embu the audience understands that something different is about to happen.

You’re quite correct with regard to training philosophy though. It is up to each Kenshi to decide their ability to partake in training. If you believe that you will be injured, or you have a condition that could react badly to the training it should be your right to decide against this action. This is where your teacher should respect your understanding of yourself. However they need to explain to you if this will make a negative impact on your progress, at least then you can make an informed decision based on information.

Sometimes it is possible to have the skills, but not the confidence. When this happens it can cause injury or failure. Sometimes a teacher needs to allow time for someone to be comfortable with an idea, or look at other ways to build the confidence.

I guess I’m trying to say that it is good for us to extend ourselves occasionally. In this case it can build confidence in our ukemi, but it is not necessary to risk your health by repeated practice on cement.

Kimpatsu
16th October 2002, 09:48
Gassho.
Colin, Johan,
Good point. Training commensurate to one's own ability is one of the eight points of training attitude, after all.
Kesshu.

m.virmasalo
16th October 2002, 12:01
Hi all

Also I have done Embu and other pracice too on several types of floor and I have to agree with Johan that concrete floor is not my favourite type... But even worse was when we had to practice once a week on wrestlingmat. It was too soft and dangerous to do umpoho because all the time you must move very carefully not to injure toes or ankles.

My personal favourite is wooden floor (with springboard if possible)

Kimpatsu
16th October 2002, 12:56
Originally posted by m.virmasalo
My personal favourite is wooden floor (with springboard if possible)
I agree 100%. (Look, everybody, this time I got it right!) :p
I once caught my little toe between judo mats and broke it while practicing embu. Give me concrete over that any day.
Kesshu.

Amphinon
16th October 2002, 13:52
Speaking as a non-Shorinjist :) I feel that it is best to workout on multiple types of surfaces. This helps out in the real world.

Kimpatsu
16th October 2002, 13:58
David,
Nit-Picker extraordinaire Tony Kehoe here:
Someone who practices any form of Kempo is called a Kenshi.
Kempo= Way of the fist.
Kenshi= Warrior of the fist.
HTH.

tony leith
17th October 2002, 15:05
My personal nomination for one of the most - ahem - interesting floor surfaces I've ever trained on was at the Teikyo School, where the BSKF Summer Camp was held this year (no criticism here is intended of the School's hospitality). What if recollection serves was a perfectly good sprung wooden floor had been covered in a felt like material which varied between a velcro like effect and frictionless tobogganing over the surface. Nice..

All time worst was performing an embu at a wedding for a friend who had assured us that there was a sprung wooden floor and plenty of space. There was - next door. Where we actually performed the embu there was marble clad concrete, which made for a textbook demonstration of Newtonian mechanics - every action has an equal and opposite reaction. We also had about a couple of telephone booths worth of space to do it in, what with the watching crowd of well wishers. And there was a low hanging chandelier for added difficulty points during nage waza. Oh, and Mizuno Sensei was officiating. No pressure, then.

In terms of preparing for real life condition, I hope it's not being too obvious to point out chances are we'd be wearing shoes, and whatever surface you're training on indoors chances are it'll be relatively even (like most urban environments). Having done an outdoor demo, I can attest that doing Kempo on an uneven slope does present its challenges.

Tony leith

Kimpatsu
17th October 2002, 15:29
Tony-san,
Forgive me, but I think I can go one better. I once performed Hokei Embu on a floor that was designed for aquaplaining, which is precisely what we did.
Good experience, though.
Kesshu.

Tripitaka of AA
19th October 2002, 06:53
Grass is nice, for the cushioned fall, but not too kind on the Dogi:( . Summer Camps at Canterbury (Kent University) and Crystal Palace left good old-fashioned grass-stains on the best Dogi. You could start a good thread on which is the best Washing Powder?.

I once saw Yamasaki Sensei slip on his arse on a wet canteen floor in Hombu. For once in my life, I managed to suppress the natural reaction to laugh. Of course, I rushed forward to help mop up the dangerous area of spilled water (or beer, or whatever it was). I did not attach great significance at the time but subsequent ponderings have led to a certain realisation of the fallibility of Man.

Even the highly refined physical co-ordination of the most adept Kenshi can be thrown by a poor surface. Anyone can be hit by a thrown brick. Anyone can be disabled by an airborne virus like the Common Cold.

We just try to be the best that we can be.

Kimpatsu
19th October 2002, 07:01
Originally posted by Tripitaka of AA
which is the best Washing Powder?
Biotex, hands down. Experience of the Canterbury Summer Camp (1986) taught me that.