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47th ronin
15th October 2002, 02:35
In the Happiest Millionaire, written by Drexel-Biddle's daughter, she write that he spent a month in Hawaii taking a crash course in jiu jitsu and then went to Shanghai to train with Fairbairn. She does not give exact dates, but it appears to be late in WWI approx 1917-1919.

Any ideas who he would have trained in jiu jitsu with in Hawaii, and if he did train with Fairbairn in Shanghai?

kobukai
22nd October 2002, 14:11
The experts on this question would be at CloseCombat@ezboard.com. However, I do know that Biddle trained with John J. O'Brien while O'Brien was in Philadelphia. He trained for about a year and a half with him. The rest of the story about his daughter training may be just movie stuff. I am not sure he knew about Fairbairn at that early date - but I do know that a man named Sam Taxis was taught by Fairbairn, who in turn showed the system to Biddle. If any of the daughter story is true - she could have studied Judo in Hawaii, there were two dojo there. There were also a Yoshin-Ryu dojo and a Shibukawa-ryu dojo in Hawaii during the teens.

Hope this helps

Joseph Svinth
27th October 2002, 00:28
For some ideas on where to start looking for Biddle, see http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_Svinth_1201.htm .

During WWI, Risher Thornberry taught jujutsu to US soldiers assigned to Camp Lewis, while Captain Smith taught US soldiers assigned to Fort Myers and Camp Benning. Meanwhile, Tokugoro Ito taught judo to members of the Los Angeles Athletic Club. (This is NOT the Rafu Dojo, but a still-extant and still exclusive club, and Ito's replacement as wrestling coach ca. 1920 was Robert Friedrichs, also known as Ed "Strangler" Lewis.)

It would also be worth looking at the programs offered by the various police departments of 'tween wars era, as Seattle PD, New Jersey State Police, Jackson (Michigan) State Penitentiary, etc., all had jujutsu programs in place by the 1930s.

For Biddle in Hawaii, it would be worth following his wife's family, as Doris Duke had a large estate outside Honolulu. Anybody's dates of entry into Hawaii could be confirmed, however, by going through the immigrations forms at the National Archives in Honolulu.

47th ronin
9th November 2002, 17:27
Since asking this question, I have obtained both versions of Biddle's Book Do or Die, the 1937 version(reprinted by Paladin) and the 1944
new edition. In both books, he credits Sam Taxis with showing him Defendu from Fairbairn, but makes no claim to have studied directly with Fairbairn.

mt2k
17th November 2002, 02:53
I have the 1937 edition of DO OR DIE, but not the 1944 one.
Is there much of a difference between the two?

Matthew Temkin

47th ronin
17th November 2002, 03:17
From the introduction to New Edition:

"In this new edition, the basic text remains the same except for the changes necessitated in the use of the slash over the point system of fighting. we have attempte through more photographs to better show these movements.
The author now directs, in his extensive individual teaching of the bayonet and knife, to slash at the throat instead of thrusting with the point. The slash is most effective used left to right, directly following the the left parry, right step and hand cut."

More of the pictures show Biddle himself doing the techniques, and the jiu jitsu section is almost pure Defendu, edge of hand blows and tiger claw. The boxing section shows Biddle demonstrating the Fitzsimmons shift, makes it much clearer than the written description
(no pictures) in the 1937 edition. 108 pages vs 74 pages for the 1937
edition.

Have I piqued your interest, Matt?

mt2k
17th November 2002, 05:27
Oh yes, you have. Perhaps a trade will soon be in order?
Matthew Temkin

the Khazar Kid
4th December 2002, 04:56
I can't find either edition of the book on the Paladin Press website. Have they stopped publishing it?

Is the second edition better? Is either still reprinted by anyone? I love Steyer's "Cold Steel" and his Bowie Knife article, and have heard that what he does is mostly based on Biddle.

Biddle, based his skills, apparently, on what he learned in his childhood on the island of Madeira where knifefighting was a popular sport and recreation for small children, later on his travels through Europe, Russia, Latin America, and the American West where he studied with the greatest fencers, knifers, and bladesmen.

the Khazar Kid
4th December 2002, 05:07
Here's Steyers' Bowie Knife article:

www.gutterfighting.org/StyersBowie.html

Was the O'Brien who taught Biddle his jujitsu the same as O'Brien the boxing champion?

Jesse Peters

Joseph Svinth
4th December 2002, 07:29
You're thinking of Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, who was Biddle's boxing trainer. O'Brien was born with the last name Hagen, and is different from the O'Brien who got TR interested in jujutsu, and later served as George Bothner's trainer during his match with Higashi.

For Philadelphia Jack, see
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0202-tc.htm

47th ronin
4th December 2002, 11:38
I believe Paladin has discontinued printing the 1937 edition of Do or Die. To my knowledge, the wartime edition has never been reprinted.
It is hard to find,, but in my opinion, the better version for reasons stated in my post above.

the Khazar Kid
18th December 2002, 22:45
Any idea why Paladin discontinued the book?

I had heard that Biddle learned jujitsu from an old Irish-American champion fighter named O'Brien who had traveled to Japan in the 19th century. O'Brien not only mastered jujitsu there but even popularized the art among the Japanese, thereby beating Steven Seagal by more than a hundred years as the first Westerner to teach Japanese martial arts to Japanese in Japan! Sort of like the salesman selling refrigerators to Eskimos! Which O'Brien was this?

Jesse Peters

47th ronin
18th December 2002, 23:08
I would imagine that paladin discontinued printing the book due to declining popularity. Unless you are running a vanity press, doesn't make much sense to print books that don't sell.

The O'Brien that Biddle trained with was John O'Brien, formerly of Nagasaki. If you would like to buy yourselve a Christmas present, scroll down to the buy, sell or trade forum, and you will find that forum member Tom Christy is selling a copy of O'Brien's book.

Jonathan
19th December 2002, 09:39
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
You're thinking of Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, who was Biddle's boxing trainer. O'Brien was born with the last name Hagen, and is different from the O'Brien who got TR interested in jujutsu, and later served as George Bothner's trainer during his match with Higashi.

For Philadelphia Jack, see
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w0202-tc.htm

Darn, is there anything you DON'T know, Mr. Svinth?

How proficient would you say TR became with Jujutsu? Combined with his boxing and attitude he must have been a formidable fighter.

Joseph Svinth
22nd December 2002, 01:35
The trick is to only swing at the pitches that come straight across the plate. :)

However, to reassure you that there are vast holes in my knowledge of such things, some other pioneers of US judo that I'd like to know more about include:

Kiyose Nakae
Svend (S.J.) Jorgensen
Frederick Lowell
Edward Allen
Harry Skinner
Len Lanius
Allen Corstophin Smith
Francis Daugherty
Jim Sword
Pat Higgins

There are also big gaps in my knowledge about well-known judoka/wrestlers such as Rubberman Higami and Taro Miyake.

Kawaishi's adventures in the USA are another topic that has never, to my knowledge, been seriously documented.

So, anyway, a long way of saying that there is still much to be done.

Re TR, he was enthusiastic, but given his prominence, it's hard to say how good he really was. For my thoughts on TR's judo program, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth1_1000.htm .