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Kamiyama
16th October 2002, 06:16
Hello ninja people..
This question covers more of the mind set on what is true ninjutsu training to be?

If there was a world crisis and all monies, cell phones, phone, TV, etc.. were cut off and your world as we know it was turned upside down.. water shortage, food shortage, medical supplies were hard to come by.. how do your training help you in this crises.. are you training for the right thing or for art sake.. or just for fighting sake?

Do you have a close net of friends and family you can count on?

Are you training with them to be able to help them in this crisis..?

What do you feel as a student training.. are you getting the training to deal with these crisis..?


kamiyama, ralph severe

Oni
16th October 2002, 06:50
This is the 'end of the world' perception I mentioned in regards to your last question. Here is a counter question...how much time do you spend preparing for a reality that might occur vs. one that is occuring and surrounds you every day?

I do agree with you that a large percentage of folks probably are unprepared for this 'possible' reality. I think learning some basic concepts are important. Most people however only have a limited amount of time they can give to martial arts...or any other 'recreational' type activity. In the time they have to learn they have to choose what their focus is. It is my opinion a large percentage of that focus should be of the here and now variety as opposed to the infinite number of 'potential' reality shifts. By this I mean what kinds of things are they likely to encounter in their everyday lives. What potential situations might they find themselves in later this evening or tomorrow assuming there are no massive cultural/sociological shifts.

I also feel that by learning to succeed, and by learning how to accomplish your goals/dreams...you are learning abilities that will allow you to cope and adapt to any variety of scenarios you might find yourself in. Now perhaps you won't have the specific 'techniques' required...but you will have the ability, drive, and understanding of how to acquire/adapt to new required techniques.

You see the scenario you offered is one of many 'potential realities' that we could find ourselves in. Lets say you spend your entire life focusing on skills to adapt to this reality and it never happens? Or the one that does happen is so vastly different these skills do amount to anything of any value.

I think these days knowing how to sneak around and cover your tracks via computer networking is of far more potential value than knowing how to sneak around the forest at night, find edible plants, and scale tall buildings in a single bound ;) Should we therefore teach cyberninjutsu in the dojo? Who knows what potential cultural/sociological shifts may occur in the future? There is no way we could possibly train for them all so I think our best bet is to 'Be here Now'.

I guess in the end I do not believe the 'true ninjutsu' that you are speaking of would be the 'true ninjutsu' that the ninjas of old would be practicing if they found themselves in the here and now. They practiced skills and concepts that were relevent to their times, not the things that are relevent to most of us here in the year 2000.

Swinger
16th October 2002, 06:57
Bold is what you wrote, italics is my interpretation of what the hell it was supposed to mean and normal is my answer.

Hello ninja people..
This question covers more of the mind set on what is true ninjutsu training to be?

The questions I am putting to you are to do with the mind set of true ninjutsu rather than covering (something else?).

Okay

If there was a world crisis and all monies, cell phones, phone, TV, etc.. were cut off and your world as we know it was turned upside down.. water shortage, food shortage, medical supplies were hard to come by.. how do your training help you in this crises.. are you training for the right thing or for art sake.. or just for fighting sake?

How would your training help in a world crisis where all money became worthless, the phone, cell phone and TV were cut off and the world as we know it was turned upside down?

I think my training would help me in terms of mind set, leadership skills and the continuous feeling of keeping going no matter what the obstacle. In terms of practical skills concerned with this type of world crisis - no.

Are you training for this sort of situation (the right thing?), purely for the sake of the martial art or to be able to handle yourself in a fight.

To be able to handle myself in a fight and self development.

Do you have a close net of friends and family you can count on?

Yes I do

Are you training with them to be able to help them in this crisis..?

Not for the sort of major crisis that you are describing. They might think me a bit John Nash.

What do you feel as a student training.. are you getting the training to deal with these crisis..?

Do you feel that you are receiving the type of training to deal with these sorts of crisis

This was answered above.

Swinger
16th October 2002, 07:17
This thread has got me thinking about preparing for the end of civilisation though. I think I will start getting ready for it by building the right sort of car

How to Build Mad Max's Car (http://www.madmaxmovies.com/cars/Replica/Black/index.html)

kimq
16th October 2002, 23:02
Aaaagh!

Edward Norton is going to succed in his plot to destroy modern society from his Fight Club underground movement!

...what really puts me out is that I've just about got my car paid off. What a waste!

Kamiyama
17th October 2002, 08:02
These are some very good points, I would also like to place a few words on them too..ok

Oni, This is the 'end of the world' perception I mentioned in regards to your last question. Here is a counter question...how much time do you spend preparing for a reality that might occur vs. one that is occuring and surrounds you every day?

******ky, well we spend detailed special classes monthly on a few subjects like for example....... first aid, advanced medical skills, map reading, rappelling, water gathering skills, food gathering skills, entering locked or hard to reach places, compass, control of fear, breathing control in a stressful conflict, firearms, rope work, escaping skills, auto defense, home defense, family problems, dealing with work issues, health issues, gathering information skills, verbal skills, fire making, how to keep warm in cold temperatures, how to keep cool in very hot temperatures, stealth in the office or at work, teaching others the importance of rights, how to deal with police after a conflict, auto maintenance, home repair, how to deal with deaths, etc.. I feel these are very important skills in a crisis I spoke of. How can you say they are not or that you do not have time to train these skills? I find them far more important than who has good taijutsu or bad taijutsu. Who knows what kata or not. The simple question you asked, “how much time do you spend preparing for a reality that might occur vs. one that is occurring and surrounds you every day?” is what Hatsumi sensei has spoken and trained us for many years. I have 12 ninjutsu classes a month, they are two hours each, I feel time should be put aside for normal day skills like these. I do not see a ‘end of the world perception’ in any way, do you? I see normal everyday skills that are not trained.

Oni, I do agree with you that a large percentage of folks probably are unprepared for this 'possible' reality. I think learning some basic concepts are important. Most people however only have a limited amount of time they can give to martial arts...or any other 'recreational' type activity.

******ky, I believe this is why so many do not wish to address these skills. I feel their personal knowledge of these is very poor at best. So I agree with you Oni.
I feel if you do not have time for making your life a safer place to live then your skills, as a ninjutsu student is really poor. And if you have children or a wife to care for then it is more important to have these skills.


Oni, I think these days knowing how to sneak around and cover your tracks via computer networking is of far more potential value than knowing how to sneak around the forest at night, find edible plants, and scale tall buildings in a single bound.

******ky, I agree and this is what I’m saying too. Who said anything about “knowing how to sneak around the forest at night, find edible plants, and scale tall buildings in a single bound”? I feel this is a cop out. A way to escape the subject without any true statements on your training or lack of. It’s simple to admit, if you do not train these or do not have knowledge of these then why not admit it or just ask for help. I feel honesty is better than making fun at or redirecting the subject to a silly point. Some might like to here your comments. You own and run a dojo and are teaching living skills. Don’t you agree you should be a leader and make statements that are healthy and useful? You give the impression that these are useless skills and are not really skills of ninjutsu. The hachimon and juhachimon of the Bujinkan and historical ninjutsu cover these I believe. And Hatsumi sensei talks about them in almost ALL of his books.


Oni, I guess in the end I do not believe the 'true ninjutsu' that you are speaking of would be the 'true ninjutsu' that the ninjas of old would be practicing if they found themselves in the here and now. They practiced skills and concepts that were relevent to their times, not the things that are relevent to most of us here in the year 2000.

******ky, I disagree totally. I feel the skills I posted are totally useful and needed for our hateful and violent world we live in. And I feel the ninja living today are of true need of ANY special skills they can get their hands on.
Please let me know what skills if any would be useful that I didn’t post.
I see you put computer.
Very good skill I didn’t post.
But what others Oni?
Just for fun now... list a few others I didn't list..ok

peace

kamiyama, ralph severe

Budoist
18th October 2002, 02:02
Basic computer security
Defensive driving
Offensive driving
Basic home defense
Modern communication & communication security
Basic chemistry
Basic physics
Local government


Just a few

Kamiyama
18th October 2002, 06:06
These are all very good fields of study....

Basic computer security, covered in gathering information skills.
Defensive driving, covered in auto defense skills
Offensive driving, covered in auto defense skills
Basic home defense, covered in home defense skills
Modern communication & communication security, covered in verbal skills, stealth in the office or at work, breathing control in a stressful conflict, control of fear.
Basic chemistry, covered in first aid, advanced medical skills, health issues, gathering information skills.
Basic physics, covered in biomechanics thought taihenjutsu, gathering information skills.
Local government, covered in teaching others the importance of rights, how to deal with police after a conflict, gathering information skills.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Kamiyama
18th October 2002, 06:36
Dick Severance shihan is the only other trainer in the Bujinkan dojo that trains openly the skills or many of the skills I would say was true ninjutsu. As I stated true ninjutsu not that YOU would agree it is or is not true ninjutsu.

I would like to know if anyone else does or knows of anyone other than Dick Severance shihan and myself are teaching these special skills in their dojo training methods.

I've had friends who have trained with him in some of these skills and were very impressed with his knowledge.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Oni
18th October 2002, 10:02
Ok...first point Ralph. You started this thread asking about 'ninjutsu skills' without defining what your opinions of these skills are. In general when most people today speak of 'ninjutsu skills' they are speaking of things such as stealth and scaling castle walls...hence my playful comments above. I know you Ralph...you are as quick to make fun and humor as the rest of us so drop the serious act ;) It was an honest statement made in response to an open ended and unspecified question made by you. Now to specifically address some of the skills you mentioned as well as some of the overall points made.



first aid, advanced medical skills, map reading, rappelling, water gathering skills, food gathering skills, entering locked or hard to reach places, compass.

gathering information skills, verbal skills, fire making, how to keep warm in cold temperatures, how to keep cool in very hot temperatures



All excellent skills, some of which I would like to hold workshops on for students that are interested in the coming years. Most likely I will have to bring in outside assistance for some of this as I have to live in the same world as my students and have to make choices in the areas I have specialized in. This brings me to my next point however...in general if I wanted to learn many of these skills I would NOT go to a martial arts school to learn them. I would go to someone that has specialized and focused their lives on whatever particular skill it was that I wanted to learn. Yes, there are some martial artists that have a lot more time to become 'survivalists' than I have...but even then I think I would prefer to learn from someone that was more specialized in the particular area I wanted to learn. Advanced medical skills being an excellent example of what I am talking about. I would much rather take medical classes taught by folks that have actual hardcore medical training, than I would with a martial arts teacher that might dabble in medicine here or there. When I was in Japan some guy asked Nagato sensei what to do if someone was injured (trying to get some of the super secret ninjas stuff no doubt)...the answer? Go to the hospital or call the paramedics. Now in your proposed 'reality' above this might not be an option...however that proposed reality may never occur. Right now if you want medical training, go to med school. Take some courses from the local red cross or fire department.



control of fear, breathing control in a stressful conflict, firearms, rope work, escaping skills, auto defense, home defense, family problems, dealing with work issues, health issues, gathering information skills, verbal skills


Most of these things are touched upon or taught in some fashion in most of the dojos I have been associated with. Of course most of my study has been with Stephen Hayes affiliated school and he has some different stuff going on in his schools than some others.



auto maintenance, home repair


Heh...you must have a LOT more time than I do if you can teach this stuff in your dojo. Hats off to you. Personally I think most of the people I have met training really wouldn't want to be bothered with this stuff in the place they come to learn martial arts and success skills. Again...lots of different places to learn this stuff. When I want to learn more about network security I don't go to my mechanic...I go to network security specialists. Now my mechanic may be a computer wiz, and may have a great network running in his house...but as he has made the decision to open a garage as opposed to a computer school I feel that tells me something. If you have the training, time, and students that are interested in this and it is working for you I think that is fantastic. I don't think these qualifications (time, training, etc) would exist everywhere or for everyone...nor should they.

You made a point about how important it is to learn everything in your list, particularly if you have a wife and kid. I think if I not only spent all my time learning everything in your list, but tried to teach it through my school...I really wouldn't have much time for a wife and kid. If there is one thing I have learned that is important to me...its balance. You should give a lot of time to actually LIVE your life...not just prepare to live it...or prepare for eventual scenarios you may or may not one day live in. Sure...spend some time on this...and some time on that...but you only have so much time.

Where do you focus? You have yours and if that is what works for you than that is what works. However the attitude that if others don't live your specific opinion of what 'ninjutsu' should be, they are 'not training for the _right thing_' is something you should perhaps question in yourself.

Some skills _I_ feel are important:

1) Balancing your life.
2) Seeing the positive in things.
3) Remembering what your dreams and goals are and (re)learning to believe that you CAN accomplish them.
4) Taking people for what they are, not for what you want them to be.
5) Smiling.
6) Doing your best to build a strong community and encouraging others to do the same.

Please understand I do not mean any of this with any disrespect. I like you and am glad you have found things that work for you in your life. What I don't like are your insinuations that those that don't do things 'your' way are bad or insincere. Not everyone does things the same way or has the same focus...thank god...that would be BORING!

dirtyvicar
18th October 2002, 16:18
Kamiyama, these classes you have sound excellent! Do you teach these things yourself, or do you have guest instructors?

Kamiyama
18th October 2002, 17:20
Mike, I both teach them and other instructors..

thanks

kamiyama, ralph severe

Budoist
19th October 2002, 02:29
Originally posted by Kamiyama
I would like to know if anyone else does or knows of anyone other than Dick Severance shihan and myself are teaching these special skills in their dojo training methods.


Actually, I can think of several times that Kendall Sensei has taught many of these things. Some I missed out on 'cause I worked on the days that he did the field trips out into the Texas wildernesses. Heard it was great fun though.

Student creeping through woods. "Wow, this is creepy. Can't wait to get this on the Engei!" Takes out camera. FLASH! 3 ninjas fall from the trees.

They who were meant to get it got it. :)

Kamiyama
19th October 2002, 06:07
If there is one thing I have learned that is important to me...its balance. You should give a lot of time to actually LIVE your life...not just prepare to live it...or prepare for eventual scenarios you may or may not one day live in.

Oni, I couldn't have said it better myself..
One thing I would like to say, This training and the things that manifest from it is my life and is the way I live it this is my path to seeing beyond this conditioned world.
So with that...the sweet taste of life and the light has been awaken in the heart of the Buddha..Different warrior winds come from all directions.
I feel a smile coming on....

kamiyama, ralph severe

Oni
19th October 2002, 06:43
Originally posted by Kamiyama
If there is one thing I have learned that is important to me...its balance. You should give a lot of time to actually LIVE your life...not just prepare to live it...or prepare for eventual scenarios you may or may not one day live in.

Oni, I couldn't have said it better myself..
One thing I would like to say, This training and the things that manifest from it is my life and is the way I live it this is my path to seeing beyond this conditioned world.
So with that...the sweet taste of life and the light has been awaken in the heart of the Buddha..Different warrior winds come from all directions.
I feel a smile coming on....

kamiyama, ralph severe

Very nice reply Ralph :) I am glad we were able to have this discussion.