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Bustillo, A.
16th October 2002, 13:12
There are some misconceptions and comfusion about the different Kyokushin groups. Most of it stems from the break-up into splinter organizations.

There were three main Kyokushin splinter groups formed after Mas oyama passed away in 1994;
IKo 1-Matsui
Iko 2-Nishida and Sampei
IKo 3-Y. Matsushima.
(note: since, the heads of these IKo groups have changed)

Nowadays, I understand that there are several more groups with some hosting major full-contact knockdown tournaments.--We should take into consideration most of the groups claiming the style of KK as long as they do practice Kyokushin.

The event in Rochester, NY hosted by Mike Monoco is well-known, yet, I am interested to learn about the current status of the different groups in the US and Canada and their events.

Thank you.

Amphinon
16th October 2002, 13:16
Is your question about this particular group, or e-budo members groups?

Bustillo, A.
16th October 2002, 13:21
Originally posted by Amphinon
Is your question about this particular group, or e-budo members groups?

I don't understand what you mean.
I was referring to the different KK events and groups.

Which e-budo menmbers do you mean?

Amphinon
16th October 2002, 13:38
I guess I interpreted the question as "I am intrested in finding out about other Kyokushin groups and their events..."

We were part of the original Kyokushin back in the 70's. Because of our club status, the annual and monthly dues to the Hombu made it difficult for the students to pay, so we dissassociated ourselves from the Hombu. We call ourselves the Inner Circle of American Kyokushinkai-Kan. As far as events, we have none on tap right now, however we run a seminar 3 - 4 times a year; Christmas Parties; a yearly open memorial tournament in the name of our Instructor; we judge and referee many sanctioned Full-Contact Fights for ISKA, KICK, PKC; - we basically have LOTS going on.

tamashi
16th October 2002, 15:01
Antonio and all:

Just to clarify: The event hosted by Shihan Monaco
is an IFK (International Federation of Karate) tournament.
the IFK was founded by *Steve Arneil, Kancho back before
Sosai Oyama passed away. Since he was based in England-
the IFK is well represented in England and parts of Europe
as well as other parts of the world. In the U.S. the organization
hosts Knockdown tournaments, and I think a summer camp too.
for more information on the US contingent, go to:
http://www.uskyokushin.com/

We went to their North American Championships, and found it
to have good competition and good officiating. Will be happy
to go back next year. I think that the IFK has their international
World tournament in Spain in the next week or so.

*Steve Arneil is one of the original legends in Kyokushin, and
one of the very few to successfully complete the 100 man Kumite.

Regards,

Paul

Amphinon
17th October 2002, 13:21
I never claimed that we are associated with Kyokushin. I teach it, I live it, I love it.

Bustillo, A.
17th October 2002, 14:21
Originally posted by Amphinon
I never claimed that we are associated with Kyokushin. I teach it, I live it, I love it.

David,

The original post was about sanctioned Kyokushin groups and events. They do not necessarily need to be an IKO group. You mentioned ISKA, KICK and PKC, those events have nothing to do with kyokushin.
Attributing those type of tournaments to KK will confuse some folks.

Kyokushin, you stated that you live and teach it, OK. Due to the fact that your schools enter events it would make sense that you'd enter them in KK tournaments.

If your school didn't place emphasis on competiotion and you didn't compete it would not matter, however, that is not the case. The training has a strong bearing on the type of tournaments a school will choose.

So, to clarify...does your school enter ANY type of kyokushin/knockdown type evnts?

Bustillo, A.
17th October 2002, 14:46
TOKON, Tamashi and or anyone else,


Please, it is hard to keep up with the major event. Looking for a list.

Momaco's Rochester event we mentioned.

Nowaday's, Gorai hosts a KK tournament.
There are different rules for individual tournaments, yet World Oyama, Shidokan and the Sabaki Challenge have the continuous fighting no pads, no gloves format.

Others?

tamashi
17th October 2002, 17:32
Antonio and all:

Most Kyokushin Knockdown tournaments are going to
have radically SIMILAR rules. The essence of fighting this
style of competition being "Full Contact": no pads, no
gloves, but no punches to the head. Kicks to the legs, body,
and head allowed, all punches to the torso allowed.

Rule variations are usually small within the major (and minor)
Kyokushin factions. For example: 2 minute rounds or 3 minutes?
Number of extensions - 1, 2, 3, etc... There may be differing
amount of latitude on grabbing, kicks to the joints and such,
but these are still illegal. Some will allow punches to the legs,
while others this is not really a consideration. Elbows are allowed
to the Body, knees are allowed to all areas where kicks are allowed.

So if you compete in IKO (1,2,3, or even 4) there should not be Huge
differences - at this time. The IFK is pretty similar, as is the group
I am in - the USKKO. If I took my guys to a IKO or IFK tournament
we would not have to make significant changes in training/preparation.
Fighting is continuous during the rounds, unless there is a call for a
point, or half point. Fighting will also stop for a foul/warning. Also:
half point (wazari) for a technique which momentarily stuns opponent
full point (ippon) for knocking out opponent (3 sec or 5 sec).

Once you leave Kyokushin, and talk about various offshoots there will
be more variations on the rules. To the best of my knowledge, World
Oyama Karate is pretty much the same, but the differences become
clearer (especially with grabs and throws) when you are talking
about Enshin/Ashihara, Shidokan, Seido Kai Kan, ShinSeiKai, SeishinKaiKan, etc.

If you are looking for results of various Kyokushin tournaments go to:
http://www.kyokushinresults.freeserve.co.uk/

If you just want to have a list of Knockdown tournaments, and have a
list specific to North America that includes those hosted by various orgs:
http://fightingkarate.cjb.net/ It gets updated fairly regularly too.
Not much coming up in the next few months in North America.
For November there is 1 in Texas I hear.

For "Semi Contact" the rules are essentially the same, but competitors
will have shin pads and gloves. Kicks to the head may be limited in
novice divisions.

Hope this is Helpful,

Amphinon
18th October 2002, 17:56
(This is for Fernando Aguilar)


No DISRESPECT but what you teach has nothing to do with KYOKUSHINKAI KARATE.Nothing?!?! Do I walk into you house and say "This isn't a house, it is a trailer home"? No. Sir, I don't know you from reputation, but I also, would not critisize you, your instructor, or your school. I consider you a bretheren of mine just because we share a commonality - Kyokushin. No disrespect?


Let me clarify a few things for you based upon your comments...

[list=1]

Do you pay dues to the hombu? IKO1, IKO2, IKO3, IFK? I stated in a previous post in this thread that we no longer pay the dues. This means we are not associated with the Hombu, IKO1, IKO2, etc. I also stated that we were associated with the Hombu years ago. Is there a time limit to calling yourself Kyokushin?


I'm sorry to say that you are just using a name and misleading your students and fellow martial artists.Since the untimely death of Mas Oyama, too many people bicker about who is and isn't Kyokushin. I've heard people call Kyokushin "Glorified Shotokan" and defended Kyokushin whole-heartedly. If you want to get technical, only the Founder is true Kyokushin. We do not decieve our students. We call ourselves Ro-Ken Karate. Our students come to us for instruction. That instruction is based upon Kyokushin. Sensei Kendall did recieve his Certificates from the Hombu. If your instructor died, would you still call your style Kyokushin if that was what you practiced and taught? Whether or not our rank certificates match is insignificant. Since we are not associated the Hombu use of their certificates is copyright infringment.


Your kihon,kata and kumite does not resemble original or modern KYOKUSHINKAI.I hope that you are not basing this upon the videos I downloaded from other site and posted to mine as evidence of the differences. I do not know any of the people in the videos. Since you have never witnessed any techniques, katas, or fighting associated with our school, where are you getting your mis-guided information from?


We don't wear blue dogi's and the KANKU over our chest. Our certificates and belts are completely different than what I see on your web site.As far as the Blue Gi, I wear that to some Open Tournaments. Gi color does not help or hinder anyone. What color Gi do you wear? White? That is tradional. Since you haven't been in my closet, I have 1 blue Gi and 6 White Gi. All Gi except the blue one is Heavyweight. Do you wear heavyweight like a good Kyokushin enthusiast? The Kanku that you are referring to has been adopted as our School Patch (which explains the location difference).When we stopped paying the dues to the Hombu, we changed our certificates, cards, belt colors, and that we call our style American Kyokushinkai-Kan. We did not change the katas that were being taught as part of Kyokushin in the region at the time, nor did we change the techniques. As time goes on, small changes occur. I wonder how much change there has been in the Hombu, IKO1, IKO2, etc., or any school since 1977. That instruction is based upon Kyokushin. Whether the certificates match or not is insignificant. If we used the Hombu certs, we can be held legally responsible for copyright infringment.(BTW, I am the webmaster of our site and I did not load any Rank certificates on the site. Where did you get that from?)


You do not fight knockdown/fullcontact but rather American style point tag.When I first replied to the thread, I read KK as "Kyokushin-Kai" not "Kyokushin Knockdown". It was my mistake. In my area, open tournaments is as close to KK, as I could get. Now I'm older. Just because I compete in Point Karate Tournaments doesn't mean I can't defend myself or that my techniques are ineffective. But it does show that even Kyokushin can compete with the showy versions of Karate you see in open tournaments.


To claim 4th dan you have to test under your Sensei, Branch Chief, Country Rep and/or President of the region. When Sosai was alive, you had to test in front of him for 4th dan.I "claim" nothing. I was promoted after 16 years of active workouts, competition, teaching, etc - just within our school. I was promoted by Chris Mahoney, Bill Pate, Raymond Jones, and Greg DeCrow. We all had the same Instructor and in addition, If you look on the IKO site, with the listing of Black Belts, you may see some of their names. I have never solicited promotion. What rank are you? Who are you associated with? How long did it take you to get there? Are you questioning my rank? Who do you think you are?


Listen, you do what you want it's a free country but Kyokushin, no way. Off shoot, sure why not. Ro-Ken Karate sounds pretty good in honor of your sensei. Leave it like that. You can always say we have our roots with Kyokushin.You need to do more homework if you want to use my site against me. In the "Ro-Ken History" we outline how Robert Kendall recieved his Black Belt in Kyokushin. Nothing has changed since Sensei Kendall was teaching us. Since you have ever come to our school to workout with us, you know don't know what we teach, how we teach, and by the same token, cannot make accuasations that we are not teaching the Kyokushin way. You seem intent on passing judgement by a website?!? We have have various representatives from other Kyokushin groups come in and workout with us. They also agree with our teaching of Kyokushin. Even then, a branch of a Dogwood tree is still a Dogwood tree. Ashihara changed everything, they are not Kyokushin. Neither is Enshin Karate.


One more thing,on your web site, under photo album, REF. Mas Oyama pictures, you have 10 nice pictures of Sosai. One problem, picture #10 IS NOT MAS OYAMA. Picture # 10 is of SO NEI CHU, Goju karate teacher of Mas Oyama.Thank you for pointing that out. I am still designing the site and stuck those pictures in a folder called Mas Oyama. I knew that was So Nei Chu already.

Some additional thoughts:
Kyokushin is based upon the beliefs and philosophy of Mas Oyama. You do not have to be associated with the Hombu to teach that same philosophy. We teach that philosophy.We believe in what Kyokushin teaches us.

Do you believe that fighting is how you gain respect? KK is great if you don't mind the bruises, swellings, and getting your butt kicked! Most of our students have professional jobs (they make a living doing something else) and don't need those injuries. We are very Self-Defense oriented. Kyokushin teachings are very much in line with self-defense. Personally, I have respect for people who can do that and not worry about their jobs. KK is rough, but last I checked (which was less than a month ago) it is not required in order to teach or be considered Kyokushin.

Maybe since Mas Oyama has passed the word Kyokushin should be changed. Or is everyone stuck on using the syle name to describe their belief in the teachings of Mas Oyama.
[/list=1]

Amphinon
18th October 2002, 18:03
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.


David,

The original post was about sanctioned Kyokushin groups and events. They do not necessarily need to be an IKO group. You mentioned ISKA, KICK and PKC, those events have nothing to do with kyokushin.
Attributing those type of tournaments to KK will confuse some folks.

Kyokushin, you stated that you live and teach it, OK. Due to the fact that your schools enter events it would make sense that you'd enter them in KK tournaments.

If your school didn't place emphasis on competiotion and you didn't compete it would not matter, however, that is not the case. The training has a strong bearing on the type of tournaments a school will choose.

So, to clarify...does your school enter ANY type of kyokushin/knockdown type evnts?

At the time I made that statement, I was thinking that the "KK" stood for Kyokushin-Kai".

I know that these orgs do not have anything to do with Kyokushin. I was replying to what I thought was a question about the organizations represented on E-Budo and their events.

Sorry for the confusion.

Amphinon
18th October 2002, 21:12
I said my peace. Just answer the questions. You're a 6th Dan?

tamashi
21st October 2002, 16:06
David, Fernando, (and anyone else):

Well. I have thought about this thread of discussion for a couple of days now.
Not sure how productive it will be at this point, but thought I would wade in.

I do not think it is about political affiliation, or what faction we belong to.
It seems to have more to do with content, or style. In some ways a kick is
a kick, a block is a block, and a punch is a punch. BUT in other ways, there
are noted stylistic variations. That is what makes up the countless styles. :-)

For example, there are differences in Kyokushin Kata from Shotokan.
Not better or worse, just differences. Just like there are differences from
what may be emphasized in Kumite. and so on, and so on.

David: One thing that is confusing is the style you teach. look at your
signature line. it says (I will paste below)
David Dyer 4th Dan – American Kyokushinkai-Kan
Ro-Ken Karate Association
This would indeed seem to be saying that you are a 4th Dan in Kyokushin,
and that your Association is called “Ro-Ken Karate Association”. While
in your response to Fernando you said you are doing Ro-Ken Karate

Okay, anyway, lets get on to the meat of the matter:
Kihon,
Kata,
Kumite. (as well as etiquette, philosophy, history, etc etc)

I do not know what your Kihon look like, so I cannot really comment.

Kata: based on a different thread of late, it looks like a large chunk of
your kata are either outdated Kyokushin such as the Tekki series,
Empi, Bassai Dai, or Shotokan kata such as Jion. So, approximately
25% of your Kata are not the kata practiced in current Kyokushin Dojo
across the world. You are also missing a few from your list. I do not
know how your run the kata, although based on the ones listed, I would
anticipate they are older versions, or possibly with a strong Shotokan flavor.
I have not seen the kata video on your website, but I did see the list
(At 56 K it takes a long time for me to download stuff like that). That
would be confusing if your have the MPG files on your website, but they
are not actual version ran in your Dojo. This may have caused some confusion
as; if I had Kata posted on my website, I think people would anticipate that
the video would be of me (or my students) doing the kata in our own dojo.
Also: David, you do have a certificate scanned and up on your website
but it looks like it may be a school cert, and not a student rank certificate.
Anyway, Kyokushin Kata should look fairly uniform, but there will always
be some differences. things to look for are a combination of fluidity and power.

Kumite: Kyokushin is famous for fighting at full power. This is one
of the things that differentiate us from other styles. For over 20 years
I think the rules have been pretty well standard due to the World
tournaments. No punches to the face, kicks to legs allowed etc as I
elaborated on before. Knockdown fighting is Kyokushin Kumite.
This may be where there are some huge differences. I have not seen
you spar David, but you make it clear the style of Kumite you practice
and what your dojo does. It doe not sound like “bad” fighting, but it
is not what the rest of the International Kyokushin community does.
To clarify, we practice many things in my dojo – we spar light to
work on technique, we do use light shin pads and light gloves to
attempt to reduce the chances of injury. But, we also do fight
at full power. This is what Kyokushin fighting is. Do people get
banged up? – of course they do. Without punching to the head though
the chances of a closed head injury goes way down. Have I ever been to
a point tournament? Sure, I just don’t see any purpose to it at this time.
The only real competition for Kyokushin fighters is Semi Contact, or
Knockdown. If others want to do Clicker, they sure can, but we do not
train specifically for it. Granted, Knockdown has some limitations and
is not the perfect test of skills, but it is the common way to do it in Kyokushin.
David, I am a few years older than you and I still fight under Kyokushin rules.
I may not be competing, but my students can represent the dojo well. In my mind,
and most Kyokushin practitioners – point sparring means absolutely nothing.
Have you had people from an IKO faction fight with your students? I know
you mention that you have had visitors, but was not sure what the representatives
from other Kyokushin based groups were. Personally, I do not get many visitors-
but I do get high kyu ranked students from other IKO. I teach in a University
so my proportion of International students is high. Anyway, If your fighting
is not radically similar to the way fighting is in an IKO dojo, then it is by
definition not really Kyokushin Kumite. I am not saying that all of us need
to be as good as Kazumi, Filho, Matsui etc. but we do need to be following
the same format for fighting. I break people in slowly. Most of my students do
not fight at all for the first few months. It is a gradual progression. Plus
as noted, Competition is not mandatory. But yes, Kyokushin does mean
“full contact” fighting. There may be great differences in amount, frequency,
etc. but all people in a Kyokushin Dojo need to be able to fight. This may go
down as they get older, and focusing on Self defense is fine, but for all intents . . .
Kyokushin is Fighting Karate.

I will assume your etiquette and philosophy has more similarities than differences.

For a nice write up detailing Kyokushin training, I would refer people to
“The Distinguishing Traits of Mas Oyama & Kyokushin Karate” by
Michael J Lorden. Journal of Asian Martial Arts Vol 6. No 3, 1997 p 60-79.


Regards,

Bustillo, A.
21st October 2002, 22:16
David,

I would like to clarify that Enshin and Ashihara do not claim to be Kyokushin, nor do they desire to be. Furthermore I think it is commendable that you teach students with special needs. However I just find it strange that you claim Kyokushin yet from what we can see you do not participate outside of your own group in any type of Kyokushin camps, seminars or tournaments.

CEB
22nd October 2002, 03:34
Originally posted by tamashi

....
Kata: based on a different thread of late, it looks like a large chunk of your kata are either outdated Kyokushin such as the Tekki series, Empi, Bassai Dai, or Shotokan kata such as Jion. So, approximately 25% of your Kata are not the kata practiced in current Kyokushin Dojo across the world.
....


I'm just curious , does the quote above mean that the kata I saw in the movie Fighting Black Kings are no longer performed in the Kyokushin-Kai the way they were done in the movie?

Amphinon
22nd October 2002, 13:19
You are right, we don't participate with the events of the Hombu, IKO1, IKO2. We participate with American Kyokushinkai-Kan events - particularly the Inner Circle.

Does the above post also mean that since the "Fighting Black Kings" katas are not current, that they are no longer Kyokushin?

Amphinon
22nd October 2002, 14:09
Exactly what makes Kyokushin?

The fighting? I believe so. There is no way to prepare yourself for real-life without fighting hard. We've had busted ribs, shoulders, wrist, ankles, briuses, cuts, knots, swellings, and even a knockout or two. We believe whole-hearedly in hard fighting. I sit here right now with a broken wrist from sparring. And yes, we (including me) have had IKO1 Black Belts in on occasion and have sparred. Don't judge the my school for my decisions in competition. I do not have the resources to travel to the events much less participated in them. What if I took Kyokushin from a Hombu related dojo and didn't participate in KK events?

The Kata? The katas change. Wether you learn the old or the the new, the katas teach us the basics behind the fighting. Just because we learn the older (out-of-date) katas does not mean we have no history. Sure, we are isolated in an area that gets few events and even less attention.

The Philosophy? The belief structure of Kyokushin is rooted in Mas Oyama's teachings since the beginning. Read some of the Interviews in Black Belt Magazine. (included here! (http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1963/summer63/masoyamaspeaks/masooyamaspeaks.html) ) As I recall, his philospy has never changed, therefore never outdated.

I can see that given the locale, isolation, and other factors, that we are considered not current. I agree. The entire episode of dissassociating from the Hombu was before I came in 1985. That is not my fault, and other than the dues, I don't know what was going on. What if I put this in my sig and webpage? (Note - we teach a pre-judged, practical self-defense based upon the philosophies of Mas Oyama and it is considered current-until-it-changes-kyokushin practitioners as a non-current version of un-associated Kyokushin) doesn't work. The problem with Kyokushin, it is about money. People pay big bucks to be with associated. Knowledge is not the exclusive domain of Kyokushin. It is to be disseminated to the students. That is how we propogate of style.

I am not hard headed, but considering that not one person on this board has ever visited our school, seen video, or even worked out with us, I don't think it is right calling me called a fraud. That should be discussed in the Baffling Budo section.

I am open with my discussions, I am not decietful, I have never been, I never will. People consider me the most hgonest person they know. I won't lie to you or anyone.

I have spoken with Paul on several occasions about the rank requirements and various other Kyokushin related subjects. I am trying to gear us more toward the current Kyokushin.

tamashi
22nd October 2002, 18:29
Ed:

The changes for the most part to Kyokushin Kata
are minor. I am sure some of them are capricious :-)

On the tape of the 1st World tournament, they show
part or all of: Kanku Dai, Sanchin, Pinan 5, Seienchin,
Bo Kata (Chion), as well as Sai and Nunchaku Kata.

Sanchin, Pinan 5, and the Bo kata all look basically the
same. I think there have been 1-2 small changes to Seienchin.
Kanku Dai – I am not sure as I can not remember the whole Kata,
but it looks essentially the same. I would say that most Kyokushin
practitioners do not know the Sai or Nunchuku kata, although the
“old timers” would and might teach at a summer camp or something.



Originally posted by CEB


I'm just curious , does the quote above mean that the kata I saw in the movie Fighting Black Kings are no longer performed in the Kyokushin-Kai the way they were done in the movie?

So I guess the short answer is that the kata are essentially the same.
the sai and Nunchuku kata are no longer widely known by most.

Paul

tamashi
22nd October 2002, 20:07
David:

Not to sure which direction to go with this thread of discussion.

First off; speedy recovery on the wrist, it’s a nasty place for an injury.

We do not really have resources to go to the Kyokushin Summer
Camps or competitions either. But that does not stop us from going
when we can. It is not uncommon for a few of us to go 4, 6, or 800
miles for quality training opportunities or competition. It is less than
optimal, but that is the way it goes for those of us that are isolated :-(

As you know, if you took Kyokushin from an IKO type organization
it would not be mandated that you compete. Although some of them
do dictate which competitions you would be allowed to fight in. None
of them would encourage you to fight in point sparring competitions.

Most people who are not doing Kyokushin anymore, call it some thing else;
Seido Juku, Mushin Do, Kokondo, U.S. Budokai, and so on and so forth.
Yes, there are financial issues involved with the big Kyokushin orgs.
Some (i.e., IKO 3) are not nearly as expensive. Others are quite cost prohibitive.

I would be happy to continue to discuss various other Kyokushin related subjects.
Maybe we could share tapes of ourselves, or our students engaged in Kumite.

take care,

Paul Out.

Amphinon
22nd October 2002, 20:35
Thanks Paul!

Amphinon
26th January 2004, 14:50
Update...

I know it has been a while since I have been on. I was reading some of my old posts and ran across this one.

I think I came off as very defensive, so I want to clarify a few things about our school.

1. When we were part of the Kyokushin organization, we paid dues, got certificates, gi, belts, patches and everything a card carrying member would get.

2. When we stopped paying dues. We changed the copyrighted and trademarked elements only. The kata stayed the same.

3. When I joined (Nov 22, 1985) We were already seperated from the Honbu. The kata has not been changed since we seperated.

4. It seems that Kyokushin is falls under the same problems that my school does because of the following elements: Their katas have changed since the original ones were taught by Oyama Sensei and the head of their organization had since passed away.

If we are passing judgement on others, do we not have to look at ourselves, too?

5. Can you honestly say that you practice only kata that is taught by Kyokushin (with no variations) and they have not changed since you started?

Things change. I understand that. I got upset because I was shown great disrespect. As a 4th Degree Black Belt (under any legitamate Kyokushin School or Off-shoot, cousin, etc.) that shares the values and teaching of Kyokushin (no matter if they are out-dated or not) I at least respect the rank until the man deserves it.

6th Dan should know that and live it.

6. Not paying dues to any Kyokushin Oganization has a downfall. You get no news of upcoming events, updates on Katas, advanced ranks, brotherhood of like minds and spirits. Instead we are treated as a bastard child. I have no disdain for the Honbu, though.

7. I test myself against all styles. I test myself in all situations. Point Tounaments - yes, Kickboxing - yes, NHB - yes, Brazilian Jujitsu matches - yes. And to clear up any confusion - we practice point sparing with novices, and hard kumite with all others. A visitor will not be thrown into the ring, and visiting Black Belts are not allowed to spar against students - only Black Belts. This is only for safety reasons. If a 'Black Belt' from another school visits, you can not know by looking at them how they spar, have control, etc.

8. We are now associated with the Inner Circle of American Kyokushinkai-Kan. This is a group of "old-school" Kyokushin dojo that are not associated with any other organization.

9. Every student we have knows the history of our school. None have been decieved, and all train hard.

10. The site you saw is also not the official site of Ro-Ken Karate Association. There is no official site. I create, administer, and promote, my site (myroken.com).

You are more than welcome to look me up when you are in Memphis, TN. I have never hidden from whom I am and will always welcome criticism and the like.

I hope this helps clear up any confusion, mis-understanding, and/or problems that might have arisen with the other posts.

Richard Horrowi
26th January 2004, 22:46
David wrote

"Things change. I understand that. I got upset because I was shown great disrespect. As a 4th Degree Black Belt (under any legitamate Kyokushin School or Off-shoot, cousin, etc.) that shares the values and teaching of Kyokushin (no matter if they are out-dated or not) I at least respect the rank until the man deserves it."


Thank you for bringing to our attention your rank in an American Kyokushin system. I would like to apologize on behalf of everyone who showed disrespect for this Yondan.

Everybody Kiotsuke

Sensei Ni Rei



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We're Not Worthy, We're Not Worthy

RH

Cinnabar
26th January 2004, 23:34
David Dyer
4th Dan Black Belt wrote
I got upset because I was shown great disrespect. As a 4th Degree Black Belt
You are more than welcome to look me up when you are in Memphis, TN. I have never hidden from whom I am and will always welcome criticism and the like.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Who's the cat that won't cop out
when there's danger all about
(Shaft!)
Right on the 4th dan.

You see this 4th dan cat Shaft is a bad mother--
(Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' about a 4th dan.

n2shotokai
27th January 2004, 01:52
I find often on sites such as this, way overblown egos. There are certain people on this site who in my mind have way over-inflated egos.

In my opinion, David Dyer looked back at an old thread and reflected upon what happened and sought to be clear regarding his communication and perhaps had second thoughts of how he reacted. I think an overblown ego would have let a 1.5 year old thread die a quiet death, not have resurrected it. As I am hyper sensitive to overblown egos, I can say I saw no hint of this in the post in question. I understand the point of disrespect, particularly when they are cheap shots from people hiding behind keyboards miles away.

I differ from most people in that I believe people do not earn respect. I believe all people are worthy of respect until they prove otherwise. Certainly a Yodan has been around the block a few times and is due my respect until proven otherwise.

Amphinon
27th January 2004, 02:40
Steve, that is exactly why I decided to post back in this thread.

It sounds like we give respect to people who are dedicated to the Martial Arts. To those that have earned their rank.

Now don't get me wrong! I know there are people that "claim" rank or stature. If I was doing that, I'd say I was a Grandmaster, and not provide true sources to verify. I won't even charge people to come work out with me.

The fact is, I teach what I was taught. I was taught Kyokushin. I teach Kyokushin. Just because I don't pay dues, they want to bust my chops?!?

(breathe)

Anyhoo, I take validity serious. My invitation to come workout (perhaps spar) is open to anyone willing to come to Memphis. Just PM me and I'll get you phone numbers, address, anything you need. Just don't be prejudice against me because I am no longer part of the IKO and others.

Excel Glenn
27th January 2004, 15:35
Quite frankly, most kyokushin people are horrible at kata. I have seen videos of Sosai Oyama correcting his yudansha, and the kata were simply awful, no flow, bad balance, etc. Kata is not what Kyokushin was known for, despite Sosai Oyama's interest in it. Although I am sure there are many fine exceptions to this.

My original Kyokushin instructor Masaru Miyagi of Nara, Japan told me flat out that his instructor only expected them to do kata during testing and to not waste their time with it before hand. He regularly competed in the all-Japan and was even featured in a few small articles in some fighting mags. (One in particular had him wired up to a few EEG and EKG type machines while performing techniques. It was in Japanese, so I don't know if it was focussing on him or the methodology of the machinery). This would have been around 1986 to 1992 time frame. He was a nidan when I met him.

He couldn't even show me a single kata, which disappointed me, as I was a TKD person who wanted to see karate kata. I feel the same about a lot of the kihon, robotic, and pretty useless. Now, on mitts and pads and in the ring, Kyokushin shines forth, the rest of the stuff is pretty much a waste of time and allows an instructor to fill up class time.

I know these are strong statements, but it reflects my experiences and observations of some people from very straight forward Japanese Kyokushin, Kyokushin offshoots, and an IKO3 group. In no way does it invalidate Kyokushin, I just think some Kyokushin people should just do what they do best, which is knockin' heads. I also feel many other styles of martial arts suffer from this sort of thing, particularly TKD and a lot of Americanized karate.

hectokan
27th January 2004, 16:20
Glenn,
I have a feeling this would be one of the reasons why Ashihara along with Enshin decided they would be better off without the traditional katas and opted instead for the creation of fighting katas.Don't know this for a fact,just guessing.

It would also explain why some offshoots abandom them altogether.I doubt they would be that well known for knocking heads,if they were to spend a large portion of their training time polishing,refininig and perfecting those older katas.

tamashi
27th January 2004, 19:26
Hi David:

I have quite mixed feelings RE: dredging up this old topic.
I pretty much said what I had to say at the time.

Personally, I feel I was not attacking you and not being
disrespectful. Maybe your current comments are not
directed at me, so I will move on. If you felt attacked,
I can see why you would respond defensively, its human nature.

It is odd to read the thread now, over a year later.

As I said back then, maybe we can exchange some tapes
of our students sparring. or of kata for that matter. or kihon.
or demonstrations. whatever. I am not talking about trading
with you for copyrighted stuff, I mean homegrown footage in
the dojo. I don’t have a lot, but I do have some of it. Not
having my own video camera makes this a rare occurrence. :)

I will not be in Memphis anytime in the foreseeable future.
If you are going to be anywhere near Northern Ohio in the
Spring, contact me and we can set something up to train.
Or simply bring your guys to some full contact tournaments.
If you want to, have your Nidan in MI get in touch w/ me-
maybe I could set up some cross-training with him as well.

For most recent things happening in my dojo, please feel free
to check out http://www.wcnet.org/~thorese/fallnews03.html
We get visitors at times, and we also go visit other Knockdown
oriented practitioners. I do not waste my time with point sparrers.

Take care, and welcome back to E-Budo
Best regards,

Excel Glenn
28th January 2004, 00:09
Here are the common kata found in most kyokushin syllabi that I know of this is "Northern" and "Southern" but it is also Shotokan and Goju corresponding, I guess to Northern and Southern.

Taikyoku 1-3 (also with kicks)
Pinan 1-5 (also done in ura)
Kanku dai
Sushiho
Tsuki no kata

Sanchin
Gekisai Dai
Gekisai Sho
Tensho
Saifa/saiha
Garyu
Seinchin Garyu
Sepai

tamashi
28th January 2004, 03:26
Originally posted by Guffaw
One mo' 'gain... Or are my questions unanswerable?


Guffaw:

To answer most of your questions on Kyokushin
Kata I would refer you to the following URL:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14492

Most people probably do not split them up by Southern and Northern.
Although it could be a convenient taxonomy to use with the kata.

Oyama studied Shotokan and Goju among a couple other styles.
The Shotokan kata tend to be taught earlier in the curriculum.
Notable exception is kanku Dai.

Yes, It is erroneous to classify Kyokushin as simplified
Shotokan with hard sparring.

I have never heard of Sensei John Farrell (Corpus Christi, Tx)
He has probably never heard of me either :)
No idea what his rank is.

tamashi
28th January 2004, 12:55
http://www.takemichikaikan.com
next event we are going to.
maybe some of you will want to come and play.

It is not a Kyokushin sponsored event, but
the rules are pretty similar. Includes some
Kickboxing and Submission events for those
who prefer to play under those rules too :D

Amphinon
28th January 2004, 18:08
Getting back to the original thread topic...

Is there any sanctioned Kyokushin events around?


Paul - Thank you for the invitation. If I am in that area, I'll let you know.

I also have no video camera (hence the reason I had to use videos that I could find online).

(Edit - Thanks Paul! Event question answered. Guess I should read all the posts before posting...)

tamashi
28th January 2004, 20:41
Originally posted by Amphinon
Getting back to the original thread topic...

Is there any sanctioned Kyokushin events around?


Paul - Thank you for the invitation. If I am in that area, I'll let you know.

I also have no video camera (hence the reason I had to use videos that I could find online).

(Edit - Thanks Paul! Event question answered. Guess I should read all the posts before posting...)


I just mentioned the next one i am taking fighters too.
This event is pretty similar; in that a Knockout will win
by Ippon, or two wazari will also get you the win.
the event we are going to though allows some grabbing
and in that respect is a bit more like SeidoKaikan.

for that list of events that i mentioned last year, check
http://fightingkarate.cjb.net
it is not updated for 2004 yet, but most of the events for
the last couple years are annual events and the same people
will have similar events at about the same time of year.
It is not an all inclusive list, but covers alot of territory.