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Goju-Ryu
17th October 2002, 13:08
I'd like to know if any of the katas that Kanryo Higaonna brought from China (saifa, seiyunchin, shisochin, sanseru, sesan, sepai, kururunfa, suparinpei, sanchin)are done by people that practice Kung Fu...
And if so, what are their names and in which style are they done!

Steven Malanosk
17th October 2002, 13:36
Sanseiru, Shisochin, Seipai, Seisan, Sanchin, Suparenpei, are all names of forms used by certain schools in Fukien. The kanji are pronounced differently.

Crane dog and tiger styles have many of the same techniques.

Lohan too.

Are the forms the same? No.

Content and application? Yes.

Shimi for testing is O'simi.

Kakie = push hands also done.

Note:

Lots of what we know as Kung Fu, was taught by those of ill repute = outlaws or those of political disfavor. Because of this, many changed their styles names and history became mystery, as a means of covering their tracks.

Personalization of methodology, was also of course extant, both in China and by the Okinawans who came back with knowledge from there.

CEB
17th October 2002, 16:48
Originally posted by Goju-Ryu
I'd like to know if any of the katas that Kanryo Higaonna brought from China (saifa, seiyunchin, shisochin, sanseru, sesan, sepai, kururunfa, suparinpei, sanchin)are done by people that practice Kung Fu...
And if so, what are their names and in which style are they done!


No I don't think so. You will not find Goju forms done in China unless they were taken to China by a Goju Man and I don't think Manny has been to China recently. :)


I don't believe Higaonna was the man who brought those forms back from China and it doesn't look like Higaonna even taught all the forms mentioned above. From the conversations I've had and from the articles I've read it looks like Higaonna taught Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Suparinpei. Higaonna's teacher before he went to China was Aragaki Seisho. It is documented that Aragaki and his students demonstrated their boxing at a festival in March of 1867. This is before Higaonna went to China. The accounts mention that kata Seisan and Suparinpei were demonstrated.

Miyagi Chojun in his 'Historical Outline of Karate-do' discusses how the history of karate is full of mystery. However he states with conviction that the only thing that was known for sure was: "In 1828 , our ancestors inherited a Gung-fu style of Fujian province in China. They continued their studies and formed Goju-Ryu karate. Even today, there still exists an orthodox group which inherited genuine and authentic Goju-Ryu karate." 1828 is 4 or 5 decades before Higaonna would have been in China.


I wonder who Ryuryuko really was. Everybody seems to be saying that it was Xie Zhangxiang. Patrick McCarthy believes this to be the case so most people are assuming this to be fact but there are some things I can't reconcile. I guess I think about this stuff too much. HEre are some of my issues.

1) Xie Zhangxiang(1852-1930) was only a little older than Higaonna yet I've read accounts of Xie Zhangxiang being referred to by Higaonna as an old man. Now if the Gung-Fu inherited by the Okinawian people in 1828 was from Ryuryuko then this would make him an old man by the 1870's.

2) People are trying to sell things from Xie Zhangxiang lineage as being original Goju but IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE GOJU. There is a line of karate called Ryuei-Ryu. Ryuei-Ryu was founded by Norisato Nakaima. Norisato Nakaima was a student of Ryuryuko. Ryuei-Ryu LOOKS LIKE GOJU. Some of the forms really, really looks like To'on Ryu from Juhatsu Kiyoda who was a student of Higaonna. The Ryuei-Ryu syllabus includes Seisan, Sanseiru, Seiunchin and others forms not found in Goju.
Something that I am going to try to follow up on is some information that I got for a Ryuei-Ryu website it is as follows:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Norisato Nakaima was born on December 11th, 1819 at Kume village in Naha. He is the grand grandfather og 5th generation, Kenji Nakaima, and orginated Ryuei-ryu.
....

After one-year of preparation, Norisato went to China to practice Chinese martial arts at the age of 19.He went to Beijing via Fukushu, Fukuken-sho, which used to be the gateway to Okinawa. He became a student of Master Ru Ru Ko, the Shihan at the Military School of the Ching Dynasty with the introduction of the general.

.....

After Norisato practiced all day long for several years with Master Ru Ru Ko, he finally received a certificate of graduation and returned to Okinawa when he was 26.

After Norisato's death (1819-1879, 61 years old), Ryuei-ryu passed its skills to the third, Kenchu (1856-1953, 98 years old), the fourth, Kenko (1911-1989, 79 years old), and the fifth, Kenji (1934-). "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If he did get his menyo from Ryuryuko at age 26 and if his birth year is correct then this put us at 1845, which is 8 years before Xie was born. That a lot of ifs but it is something I have been thinking about.


At least knowing the existence of Ryuei Ryu and it similarities to Goju and its shared lineage makes me believe Ryuryuko exists. For a brief period I started to think he may have just been some sort of legend created for some who knows what kind of reason. Nonethelese I think the core forms of Goju Ryu were on Okinawa long before Higashionna went to China but I guess that still doesn't rule out Ryuryuko as the source but right now I don't think Xie Zhangxiang was the person taught Higashionna. Because if we have 2 independent lines of boxing from Ryuryuko that look a like and if Xie Zhangxiang is Ryuryuko why don't the traditons from Xie Zhangxiang look more like Naha Ti. But who knows I may change my mind on all of this as I learn more about it.


As far as the names of the Okinawian Boxing forms being the same as the names of Chinese Boxing forms, this doesn't mean anything. The shared names are number of signifigance across many dicisplines and are no indicators of the disciplines being related whatsoever.

Am I saying the forms never came from China? No I am not. I don't know. I don't think you are going to find a Kung-Fu tradition practicing these forms but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Steve make a good point regarding the boxers being not well recieved (ie outlaws, political enemy of the state ect...) Around 1900 many boxer were politically opposed to the Ching goverment. Ching goverment had a problem with foreign economic intrudings into China. The Ching decided 'hey lets blame the forgeiners for all the problems the boxers see in China. It worked and the boxer's revolted against foreign colonialism and attacked the foreigners. Well Kung-Fu didn't work well against guns and after the failure of the Boxers Rebellion kung-fu became unpopular. The traditions that did survive started referring to themselves as athletic associations, I guess in an effort to turn a new leaf in the eyes of the public. A lot of boxing traditions became extinct after 1900 I think. There also seems to have been an increase in Chinese boxing being taught outside of China after 1900 (Phillipines, Malaysia, Indo-China ect...) The boxers must have had to get out of town.

Sorry this if this is too long. A lot of this are cuts and pastes from other correspondences I have been having on this same subject with other people. So it isn't like I have wasted all day writing it. I hope it kick starts some good conversation. Maybe this would be better plced in the Ryukyu forum instead of the Karate Forum. Take care and have a good week.

Steven Malanosk
17th October 2002, 17:20
Hmmmmmmmmmm,

Yeah, this subj. matter is and has been discussed on numerous threads.

The info that I posted "in part," came from Morio Higaonna, who is depending on what your outlook is, famous for reinventing GoJu history, or the real deal, so I suppose its up for verification, just as ALL of what has been written on these threads.

Ryuei Ryu? A most impressive bunch, I agree, but in my 3 years on the rock, I never heard of or saw them once, although I did a tremendous amount of traveling and research around the island. May have missed some things of course, being that I was only in my early 20s at the time, in the very early 80s.

According to my Ryu Ryu Ko = my older brother dragon = Kow Loon "Kayo" Ong, who is a Chinese American, well versed in both the GoJu Ryu and the so called Kung Fu, our kata in GoJu, come from Southern Shaolin.

You know what, I tend to believe him, if you knew him, so would you.
:smilejapa

But still, it makes for interesting conversation, albeit at times a battle of oneupmanship.:rolleyes:

Steven Malanosk
17th October 2002, 20:03
Just so that anyone does not get the wrong idea:

CEB = Ed and I, are not opposing each other.

Just engaging in friendly historic freesparring.

His Ippon vs my Ippon = Aiuchi, for those who can dig it.

:toast:

Goju Man
17th October 2002, 22:35
No I don't think so. You will not find Goju forms done in China unless they were taken to China by a Goju Man and I don't think Manny has been to China recently
Too much Ed, too much!!:D

Steve, are you saying that e-budo members bash each other??:D

Guys, this is really interesting stuff. Have you noticed some similarities between some goju kata and uechi kata?

Steven Malanosk
17th October 2002, 23:53
Ueichi and GoJu as is ToOn Ryu are Naha Te which are Fukienese in origin.

Kyoda Juhatsu was a Higashionna student, as a matter of fact, he taught Miyagi a kata that he didnt know. "I will leave the name for the next guy who wants to join in.

The Ueichi Ryu Ryu Ko was ShuShiwa "the medicine wawker", who taught Ueichi in Foochow.

HanKo Ryu "The original moniqor of NahaTe means half hard, as does PanGaiNoon, which was the original moniqor of Ueichi style.

Ueichi still uses open hand SanChin, as did Higashionna.

Te, was more along the lines of what is now called ShoRin or Okinawa Kenpo = Shuri Te or TomariTe respectively.

RRK and SSW where both men of mystyrious backround who became more of common working class folk, probably because of political problems. As I said, the trails of many masters where covered because of their infamy for one reason or other.

Hear me now, and beleive me later.

CEB
18th October 2002, 00:03
Originally posted by Goju Man

...
Guys, this is really interesting stuff. Have you noticed some similarities between some goju kata and uechi kata?

They do Sanchin, Sanseiru, and Suparinpei. The forms have the same names but are different forms. My teacher has a 4th dan in Uechi I believe. His first job when he moved to US was teaching Uechi in Boston at Mr. Mattson's school in the late 60's.

Yamakura Sensei showed me some Uechi Ryu last June. Really nice forms. The approach in Sanchin has different principles. It does resemble Goju but the breathing is different and the posture is different. It is a very effective method. Chinese stylist I've talked too like Uechi better than Goju. The way Uechi rolls the shoulders forward in Sanchin seems to win them points over us.

What I saw that one afternoon this June is the all I know about Uechi Ryu.

Have a good weekend. See you on Monday.

18th October 2002, 00:14
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk


Te, was more along the lines of what is now called ShoRin or Okinawa Kenpo = Shuri Te or TomariTe respectively.



Actually "Te" is consider more closely related to Chinese Bagua, especially in it's performance and application, than any other arts and is quite different from Shorin/Shuri/Tomari styles. Okinawa Kempo has kata from Shorin, Shuri, Tomari as well as the katas Sesan, Anan, Seipa (similar to Seipai of Goju). Mr. Nakamura disliked "styles" in Karate. He thought karate should be one art and practiced kata from various different systems.

18th October 2002, 00:29
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk


Ryuei Ryu? A most impressive bunch, I agree, but in my 3 years on the rock, I never heard of or saw them once, although I did a tremendous amount of traveling and research around the island. May have missed some things of course, being that I was only in my early 20s at the time, in the very early 80s.



There was probably only one person teaching publicaly when you were there, Mr. Sukamoto.
Only recently has Ryuei Ryu become widely known outside Okinawa. I would imagine even inside Okinawa you won't find many people that can tell you about the style or it's linage.......at least not that many outside of the people actually in the system. I guess there are several systems on Okinawa like that.

Steven Malanosk
18th October 2002, 04:08
I agree,

I was speaking of Kempo of Odo, wich is not as deep as what Oyata or even Nakamura do. No dis to Odo, as I knew him well, but when my old Marine Corps bud Urso went to the rock just before Odo's passing, he was told by Odo that he would have to go to Nakamura or Uehara, wich he/ we will be doing next year, with the letter from Odo that he received, in order to get the deeper meat of what Urso is doing. We have an appointment with an audience of Uehara. Once again, not to slite Odo, as he was great. But not OLD OLD SCHOOL. I am not speaking of his Matayoshi KoBuDo.

The Te that was mentioned as circular......are you reffering to Motobu Ryu? If so, I concur, and after my next trip to the rock, will have better info.

18th October 2002, 04:17
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk
I agree,

The Te that was mentioned as circular......are you reffering to Motobu Ryu? If so, I concur, and after my next trip to the rock, will have better info.

Yes.

Are you going to swing by Tokyo on your way down there? If so look me up.

Steven Malanosk
18th October 2002, 04:24
I am not sure of our agenda, as I am going with Urso, who sety the whole thing up through Fedreal and USMC connections, but if we do wind up on the mainland, you can expect our visit.

Thanks Bro.

Jussi Häkkinen
18th October 2002, 06:02
A small correction about the name (sorry, Robert).

Ryuei-Ryu -teacher's name is Sakumoto Tsuguo. He became well known from his dynamic kata performances in competitions back in the days.

Steven Malanosk
18th October 2002, 06:06
Yup,

Annan, O'Han, SeiUnChin etc.

He rocks!

Not much on hairstyle, but MAN! His kata is like a safe door SLAMMIN!

18th October 2002, 06:59
Jussi,
Your right. My fat fingers have a hard time hitting the right keys sometimes.

I have him on video and as for his kata.....yeah it's sxxxt & smokin'........however I didn't care for the self-defense/sparring techniques he showed. Basically it was just grab and punch, not really what you would call technique.
I would be interested in seeing his teachers technique because I don't think Sakumoto's is indicative of the style he teaches.

Rob Alvelais
18th October 2002, 07:50
Seems like they all do that on video. The JKF Shito Kai has a kata video series where they show only the most basic applicaitons, however having spent some time with some of the Shito Ryu Seniors and, with Kenzo Mabuni, there's a bunch that they just don't reveal on the video.

Rob



Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Jussi,
Your right. My fat fingers have a hard time hitting the right keys sometimes.

I have him on video and as for his kata.....yeah it's sxxxt & smokin'........however I didn't care for the self-defense/sparring techniques he showed. Basically it was just grab and punch, not really what you would call technique.
I would be interested in seeing his teachers technique because I don't think Sakumoto's is indicative of the style he teaches.

18th October 2002, 08:02
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais
Seems like they all do that on video. The JKF Shito Kai has a kata video series where they show only the most basic applicaitons, however having spent some time with some of the Shito Ryu Seniors and, with Kenzo Mabuni, there's a bunch that they just don't reveal on the video.

Rob



I have seen JKF, JKA and Goju tapes and know what you are talking about but this was different.
Actually it was a home video and was taken at a demo with about 10 of the top Okinawan Masters, Shinjo, Nagamine, etc. Each person doing some sort of demo and application.

Sakumoto's application/self-defense/sparring was what most Karateka would not call basic. He just grabbed the guys lapel and started punching. He didn't do any locks, sweeps, throws, ........he just grabbed with his left hand and punched with the right.
It reminded me of the fights that used to break out in High school where the bully grabs some kid and pounds on him.

sean_stonehart
18th October 2002, 14:04
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot



Actually "Te" is consider more closely related to Chinese Bagua, especially in it's performance and application, than any other arts and is quite different from Shorin/Shuri/Tomari styles. Okinawa Kempo has kata from Shorin, Shuri, Tomari as well as the katas Sesan, Anan, Seipa (similar to Seipai of Goju). Mr. Nakamura disliked "styles" in Karate. He thought karate should be one art and practiced kata from various different systems.

Robert... that's an intersting statement. I'm a Chinese practitioner & I practice Jiang Rong-qiao Baugua Zhang. I'm almost totally ignorant of Okinawan system, especially Te. Could you please tell me how it's related? Ideas & Theory? Application & Technique? I'm really curious about that. I can see the relationship of Fujianese martial arts & even a little Xing-yi influences, but because of my limited Okinawan experience, I don't see the circular influence.

Thanks for the insights!! :D

18th October 2002, 14:15
Originally posted by sean_stonehart


Robert... that's an intersting statement. I'm a Chinese practitioner & I practice Jiang Rong-qiao Baugua Zhang. I'm almost totally ignorant of Okinawan system, especially Te. Could you please tell me how it's related? Ideas & Theory? Application & Technique? I'm really curious about that. I can see the relationship of Fujianese martial arts & even a little Xing-yi influences, but because of my limited Okinawan experience, I don't see the circular influence.

Thanks for the insights!! :D


A lot of the Te and Bagua concepts seem to be the same as far as engaging the enemy.
They both seem to engage in a non direct non linear fashion, or as the late Hung Yi Shyang said "like a spinning top". There is a guy on E-Budo by the name of IchiRikan1 (Matt Stone) that can probably explain it from a Bagua perspective better than me. He and I trained together on several occasion. Here is his email address that he uses on E-Budo wolfden68@hotmail.com

sean_stonehart
18th October 2002, 14:27
Gotcha!

Thanks!

Rob Alvelais
18th October 2002, 15:37
LOL

Oh, I see! I thought you were talking about the Champ Video series on Ryuei Ryu. Yes, the film you saw is a horse of a different color.

Rob


Originally posted by Robert Rousselot



I have seen JKF, JKA and Goju tapes and know what you are talking about but this was different.
Actually it was a home video and was taken at a demo with about 10 of the top Okinawan Masters, Shinjo, Nagamine, etc. Each person doing some sort of demo and application.

Sakumoto's application/self-defense/sparring was what most Karateka would not call basic. He just grabbed the guys lapel and started punching. He didn't do any locks, sweeps, throws, ........he just grabbed with his left hand and punched with the right.
It reminded me of the fights that used to break out in High school where the bully grabs some kid and pounds on him.

18th October 2002, 15:51
I haven't seen the Champ Videos........to expensive over here. Something like US $100 per tape.

Goju-Ryu
18th October 2002, 16:05
Why is the Kanryo Higaonna Sanchin performed with your hands closed if the kata he brought from China was open-handed like Uechi's one?

I don't know if all of you that practice Goju do it with your hands closed but I do it....

Goju-Ryu
18th October 2002, 16:09
I forgot to say one thing... I was not referring to the Chojun Miyagi's Sanchin...:rolleyes:

Goju Man
18th October 2002, 23:10
I have an old tape where Tsuogo winning the world kata championship I believe performing Suparunpei. He was excellent.

19th October 2002, 00:49
Originally posted by Goju Man
I have an old tape where Tsuogo winning the world kata championship I believe performing Suparunpei. He was excellent.

I am surprised he wasn't doing Anan since that is his trademark kata.......I think he has won 4 or 5 world titles with it.

Goju Man
19th October 2002, 02:09
This is a pretty old tape called Masters of Karate. The tape is excellent as well. I've seen some of the Champ series, they are well made, the performances are very good, but the content is very basic.

Steven Malanosk
19th October 2002, 02:36
AnNan is in fact trademark, but is not or was not part of the WUKO recognized curric. He used Anan in the open division, and SeiUnChin or perhaps SuparEnPei in the standard.

19th October 2002, 02:58
Originally posted by Goju Man
This is a pretty old tape called Masters of Karate. The tape is excellent as well. I've seen some of the Champ series, they are well made, the performances are very good, but the content is very basic.

A friend of mine has a couple of their tapes....they are good but I can't justify the bag of gold they want for them over here.

Rob Alvelais
19th October 2002, 05:57
Originally posted by Steven Malanosk
AnNan is in fact trademark, but is not or was not part of the WUKO recognized curric. He used Anan in the open division, and SeiUnChin or perhaps SuparEnPei in the standard.

There is no "Open Division" for kata in WUKO. During the time that Sakumoto was competing, there was a list of 18 kata (later, 92 or so, 21) kata that could be chosen from a "Shiteigata list" for the first two rounds of competition. During the third and final round, the competitors could do any traditional kata from the list of recognized kata from 4 major schools that are recognized by the WKF. Teruo Hayashi was influential in the WKF (then WUKO) and that's how Annan was allowed. He arranged for it to be included in the Shito Ryu list of Recognized kata. It's not part of Orthodox Shito Ryu, as Mabuni never did this kata as far as anyone knows. Clearly, his son's don't have Annan as part of their curriculum.

Sakumoto did Annan in the Finals, during the 88 World Cup and thereafter (Maybe before, I don't know. But, I do have the tape of the 88 World Cup, in Munich, where he's doing annan.) He may have done Suparinpei during the prelims, and/or Sei EN Chin ;-).

Rob

Steven Malanosk
19th October 2002, 13:26
Oh, ok, what I know about WUKO could fill one of my caveties.

I am limited to the little that was told to me by Tim Brooks a former Hayashi Ha Shihan, and a tape. So I'll take your word for it.

Kevin73
21st October 2002, 15:44
If I remember right (don't have the books handy). Seisan is based on the "taming the tiger" form and Seiuchin is based on the "tiger/crane" form from Hung Gar (which is probably based on something even earlier to).

I also know Ng Cho Kuen (sp?) has a sanchin form, and hung gar has the iron thread form. But, I don't know how connected they are to the okinawan derivatives.

sean_stonehart
21st October 2002, 16:42
I don't know how old the Seiuchin form is, but Wong Fei hung created the Tiger Crane Duet (Fu Hok Shueng Yin). It's a little over a hundred years old maybe. I don't know when he created it exactly.
Taming the Tiger (Gung Gi Fook Fu) was created by Hung Hei guan. It's probably 200 years old or so. Those are two of the pillar forms of Hung Gar gung fu.

Just interesting info for those who didn't have it... :)

CEB
21st October 2002, 16:51
Originally posted by Kevin73
...

I also know Ng Cho Kuen (sp?) has a sanchin form, and hung gar has the iron thread form. But, I don't know how connected they are to the okinawan derivatives.

The primary stance is similiar to some karate versions though the stepping is done differently. Ngo Cho Kun the right foot is kept forward through out the entire form, except in the opening when the feet are parallel. Also the form ends with some cat stance work. The hands tenchniques are totally different than any karate sanchin I have seen. The breathing approach is similiar to the way we breath in Goju Ryu, but other than that it is a different form.

Pavel Dolgachov
22nd October 2002, 09:35
As I know from one russian karate researcher Alexey Gorbylyov article, okinawan master Kinjo Akio tried to find roots of one Goju-ryu kata - Kururunfa - in China.
He found that "fa" means "method" (like quanfa in chineese - "fist method" of kempo in japaneese), "run" mean "dragon". He tried to find one of "Dragon method" kata (taolu) in China, but failed. But all techniques shows that kururunfa consist of dragon style techniques. One of "Dragon style" sounds similar to "Kurunfa" in okinawan dialect. Probably by the time it transformed to "Kururunfa" (in japaneese "kurukuru mawaru" means "to roll"). It means "Rolling dragon method". Kinjo found that Seipai also very similar to Dragon style.

As i know in China there are taolu which are translated to okinawan as Sanchin (Sam Chzan), Shisochin, Sanseiru.

yiyo
24th October 2002, 01:54
Hi there gentlemen. I do not know if I am off base here a little, but, whatever happened to George Chung doing kata to the Beethhoven theme. That was one of my favorites.

Peter
Yiyo

Steven Malanosk
24th October 2002, 03:15
Aksamio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What does the price of Kimshee in Seoul have to do with the price of Yakisoba in Naha??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Chung was one of Rhee Sabumnim's best Hyung men though.