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Matthew Banks
10th April 2001, 23:07
Hi there,

Does anyone know of any Tenshin Shin'yo ryu jujutsu schools in the UK?
I doubt there are. Do you know of any good websites which can give me lots of information on this style in particular?



thanks everyone



Matt Banks

tommysella
11th April 2001, 06:58
Perhaps you can find some information at http://www.goshinkan.org/

regards,

Tommy

Yamantaka
11th April 2001, 11:12
Originally posted by Matthew Banks
Hi there,
Does anyone know of any Tenshin Shin'yo ryu jujutsu schools in the UK?
I doubt there are. Do you know of any good websites which can give me lots of information on this style in particular?
thanks everyone
Matt Banks

YAMANTAKA : TSR is a small jujutsu style and apparently japan-based. It seems there's a group in Australia but I'm not sure.
Someone recommended the Goshinkan site. That site seems to be concerned just with the self-defense (Goshin) aspect of TSR.
There's another site that may be helpful (it has a telephone number in the USA) :
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/1276/tenjin.html
Sorry, that's all I got!
Best

johan smits
11th April 2001, 20:13
Hi Matthew,

There is a teacher named Derek Fairhurst I believe he lives in Chesham, Buckinghamshire.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

MarkF
12th April 2001, 09:36
You may want to send an email to the koryu.com people, Diane and Meik Sloss. mskoss@koryu.com.

Also, you could get in touch with "Rob" a guy who does something called Shoinji kan jujitsu. He posts on the board. I do know he has been looking for some type of Koryu or gendai elder aiki arts in the UK.

No, there isn'tmuch in the way of TSR on the web, but many do not want this type of contact. Ask around any of the koryu people in the UK. They mail be able to help

Warwick
16th April 2001, 02:38
There is a Tenjin Shinyo Ryu group in Australia, under George Marton, who holds a menkyo from Kubota Toshihiro. I have heard rumours of the existence of a group in England, but I have never had their existence confirmed.

Warwick Hooke

Ree
17th October 2002, 17:22
To all Koryu organisations

The Tenyokai U.K. are pleased to anounce that on the 7th May 2002 Paul Masters was bestowed the honour of being the second westerner to become Menkyo in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu,and the only westerner to be taught the Gokui Jodan Tachiai of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu, headed by Kubota Toshihiro Menkyo Kaiden Tenyokai (Japan).

Kind regards

Lee Masters (Tenyokai U.K.)

Óscar Recio
17th October 2002, 17:59
Years ago i tried to found someone in Europe to study with...unfortunately was impossible...i´m happy to know that someone have achieved Menkyo!!!!!!
Best Regards and congratulations. Sincerely.
Óscar Recio:smilejapa

CKohalyk
18th October 2002, 00:15
Congratulations to Paul.

I would have said so when I met you two at the Shimogamo Demo in Kyoto (http://www.kendo-world.com/events/taikaipics/index.htm) in May. Nice Tomoe-nage.

Ree
18th October 2002, 14:53
Thanks guys.
Nice to hear from you CK and thanks for the link.

kind regards
Lee

SteveJ
21st October 2002, 10:02
Lee


Congratulations to Mr Masters.

Is he (or are his representatives) currently teaching in the UK? If so, I suspect a number of UK based people, including me, would welcome further details of where & when.

Thanks in advance.

Steve John

Ree
22nd October 2002, 10:22
SteveJ

Yes he is teaching in the U.K.The Dojo is at Southend,Essex.The training is at various times.Surrey is along way to come but if you are interested the perhaps something can be arranged.

Do you currently train in any martial art,if so how long have you been training?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Lee Masters (Chudan Tenjin Shinyo Ryu)

SteveJ
23rd October 2002, 23:34
Lee

Many thanks for your reply.

I've attempted to e-mail you!

Steve

Ree
24th October 2002, 09:08
SteveJ

I am having problems with my e-mail at present,so if you can reply to this then please do so.

Kind regards

Lee

24th October 2002, 09:16
Most of the Gaijin there are the ones from the Annual Budo Seminar in Chiba.

Ree
24th October 2002, 14:05
Robert

We were the only 2 Gaijin Demonstrating at the Shimogama Temple and my father was invited to take part and perform techniques of TSR by invitation of Kubota Sensei.

Lee

24th October 2002, 14:19
I am talking about the people sitting in the Tea Room.......there are about 3 or 4 people in that photo that I met at the Budo Seminar in Chiba. The caption on the photo says: "After the 4 day taikai......tea time."

The Japanese guy on the far left, Alex Bennet in the center and the Chinese guy (forgot his name) who is 4th from the right.

Are you familiar with Tony Cundy........he used to be a student of Ten Jin Shinyo ryu.

Ree
24th October 2002, 15:04
Robert

Yes,I am familar with Tony Cundy.

regards

Lee

CKohalyk
25th October 2002, 00:10
In fact all except for two of us in that pic are regulars at the Budo Seminar. The other two (The two Germans sitting between Mike and me who I cannot for the life of me remember their names) will probably be there next year.

That's me 4th from the left, and second from the right (you can't really see his face) is Greg Robinson. Randy Channell is taking the pic. This is in his tearoom after the Kendo/Koryu fests that day.

Chad-

25th October 2002, 00:21
Originally posted by CKohalyk

That's me 4th from the left, and second from the right (you can't really see his face) is Greg Robinson. Randy Channell is taking the pic. This is in his tearoom after the Kendo/Koryu fests that day.

Chad-

I guess we have met then......you look familiar anyway.
Are you going next year?
I haven't been for 2 years. Got sick one year and wasn't interested in going the other.

CKohalyk
25th October 2002, 01:21
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot


I guess we have met then......you look familiar anyway.
Are you going next year?
I haven't been for 2 years. Got sick one year and wasn't interested in going the other.

You got sick when Otake-sensei came? Shame... Unfortunately I was in Canada at the time, so I share your pain. Last year wasn't so good, except for the Kobori Ryu. I was there three years ago, we may have met then. I will probably be there next year (unless a business trip has be off in Kyushu or Germany or something...). Many regulars aren't going to be coming next year. Tony and Derek won't be there, and there was even talk of Alex not making it! (We'll see) Me, Randy and Greg will all probably be there. Also Pat Kell, I am not sure about Hamish (new wife and all). That is pretty much our Kansai crew.

Hope to see you there!

25th October 2002, 01:44
The last couple of times I did go I was kind of hesitant about it since the quality has gone down since they first started having those seminars.

The lectures have pretty much turned into a big joke............very few lectures of interest or even worth have been given.
The "kyusho" was the biggest joke that comes to mind.
The guest demonstrators have been hit and miss. Otake was a definite "hit". Which sadly I missed because of the flu.......I heard you guys got sick on the oysters too.
There have been a few other "hit" ........some others have been a down right embarrassment.
Speaking as a Karateka I can safely say the karate instruction is down right crap.............let's practice gyakuzuki for an hour :rolleyes:
I hope they do bring Higaonna over next year to give them a badly needed shot in the arm.

If I go I have basically resigned my self to training with my friends by day and becoming a drunken mess a night.

(sorry for the thread drift guys......if you want to talk about htis more shoot me an email)

Barry Southam
1st January 2003, 22:40
Friends,

Would anyone know if their are any legitimate Kitoryu and Tenjin shinyoryu Jujutsu schools in the U.S.A. ? When I say legitimate I mean instructors who have ranks in these arts and registered with the appropriate hombu or organization in Japan...Not someone wh has Judo ranking and therefore claims these other titles..I have seen people list high dan ranks in both of these Jujutsu systems on the internet and have tried to contact them in the past but no reply...I also know someone in New York claiming or at least he did several years ago high dan rank in Tenjinshinyoryu Jujutsu( 5th dan...In my opinion very questionable...

Thank You


Barry E. Southam

tommysella
2nd January 2003, 08:30
Hi Barry!

As far as I know there is no legitimate Kito-ryu and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu ju-jutsu in USA...There could of course be some people that have learned some Tenjin Shinyo-ryu or Kito-ryu but not have any licenses to teach it...

Kito-ryu is suppossed to still exist in Japan in two branchs (how complete I don't really know).

Tenjin Shinyo-ryu exist only in Japan, England and Australia...There is a Calvin D. Lester that claims to have earned the required license to teach the entire system, but according to some people on the net he have only the lowest licens in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and therefore no right to teach it.

Regards,
Tommy

MarkF
2nd January 2003, 09:13
Barry,
How is it that I know where you are going with this?

I once trained in, what today would be called a "study group" but back in about 1970 and no one was graded with the dan-i system, but closed after a year, due to a lack of interest. In fact, no one in that school had anything more than the equivelent of mokuroku status. I believe that was the status of the highest ranking of the students. The others were not graded including myself. Apparently, it was allowed to gather by the honbu in Japan. I didn't ask many questions, but considering that no one claimed a grade except for the one who had lived in Japan, it was most likely legitimate. Never say never, but that's my story...and I'm sticking to it.;)

Our friend in NY claims higher rank these days in something he calls Shin Tenshin shinyo ryu. I believe it was 7-dan. He took his web site off-line when it was discovered, saying it was for students only.

I believe you know who the claimed teacher was (Horikawa?)


Mark

I forgot. It was kito-ryu.

tommysella
2nd January 2003, 09:49
Mark,

this sounds interresting...Could you tell us a little more about the training...? Were there techniques from the Koshiki no Kata? From what I have heard the techniques from Koshiki no Kata was the central Kata in Kito-ryu...According to Serge Mol's book the names of the techniques in Koshiki no Kata is identical to the Jin no Maki-scroll of Kito-ryu...

Regards,
Tommy

Ree
2nd January 2003, 12:32
Dear Barry

Tenjin Shinyo Ryu as followed by the Tenyokai (Japan) headed by Kubota Sensei has the following grades :-

Shoden,Chuden,Mokuroku,Menkyo,Menkyo Kaiden.

There are no Dan grades (ie 5th Dan) in Traditional Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
There are only two Menkyo's in the west George Marton in Australia and Paul Masters in England,the latter being the only westerner to be taught the Gokui Jodan of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

So beware of any school claiming to teach Tenjin Shinyo Ryu who are offering a Dan grade system.

Regards
Lee Masters (Tenjin Shinyo Ryu-Chuden).

P.S.
Happy New Year Tommy and everyone at E-Budo.

Barry Southam
2nd January 2003, 23:24
Friends,

Mark, I won't mention the man in New York that we know who claimed to be one of only 17 outside of Japan with 5 th dan or maybe with any rank in Tenjinshinyoryu Jujutsu.Under who he claimed to be the headmaster of the system and studied with in the early 1980's
" The Famous Okazaki "....Ha! Ha!
( Almost positive of the following name)
There is a man named Bruce Brethers and another who in the past had listed under their credentials as having high dan ranks in both Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenshin shinyoryu jujutsu...I think they are under the United States Jujutsu Assoc., if I remember correctly...In the past I tried to e mail him but received no response...Maybe he didn't get it...All I wanted to know is information on schools and instructors in the USA if any, and what legitimate Kitoryu and Tenshin shinyoryu Jujutsu organization he is connected to in Japan..
I'll look again under that website and I think I have the organization's title right but maybe it's Federation and not Association...Oh well, I don't think I was rude to inquire about information on arts they listed under credentials...
Not that important but since you don't see those listings in Kitoryu and Tenshin shinyoryu, it's a surprise...Resulting in wanting to inquire about things...
I did hear of a man and read his website who supposedly studied under Shihan Kubota and has a school at a college in Camden New Jersey....Forgot the name!!!!!!!!!
If he's credible, he should contact the man in New York and discuss who the true current headmaster of the system is...

Thanks for everyones reply, I appreciate it..

Take Care

Barry E. Southam

Barry Southam
3rd January 2003, 01:41
Friends,

I looked at the website again that listed the two men with Kitoryu and Tenshin shinyoryu Jujutsu credentials and the correct name is " United States Ju Jitsu Federation "...
Col. Bruce Brethers is the President and CEO of the organization and has an impressive list of credentials to include:

8 th dan Kitoryu Jujutsu, Hirosaki Jujitsu Academy, Japan
7 th dan Tenshin shinyoryu Jujutsu, Hirosaki Jujitsu Academy


Also a Mr. Charles Voerster has included in his credentials:

6 th dan Kitoryu Jujitsu
6 th dan Tenshin shinyoryu Jujitsu


These ranks in Jujutsu are very impressive...


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

Barry Southam
3rd January 2003, 22:23
Lee,

Do you think it's possible for two individuals from the USA to have high dan ranks in Kitoryu and also Tenjin shinyoryu Jujutsu ? Especially since neither one is found over here and we end up finding two people involved in both of these rare arts..
You also made mention that in Tenjin shinyoryu there is no Dan system.. Could it be possible that someone in Japan broke away from the organization and started there own organization and has been awarding rank as she/he sees fit ? Are their others in Japan claiming title of headmaster of Tenjin shinyoryu Jujutsu ? They must be pretty high in credentials to award a rank of 6,7, and 8 th Dan!!!!

Lee, I heard that Kubota is a high dan holder in Kodokan Judo and is at the Kodokan in some capacity...Due to his credentials in Tenjin shinyoryu, do you think he openly teaches or holds seminars at the Kodokan in Tenjin shinyoryu Jujtusu ?
I think it would be nice to have both Kitoryu and Tenjin shinyoryu Jujutsu have a dept. developed at the Kodokan for training..

A few years ago somehow I obtained a flyer for a martial artist's seminar and it had Kitoryu credentials listed....Well, after talking to the man, it turned out that since he had a Judo background he also used the word Kitoryu...


Take Care

Barry E. Southam

tommysella
6th January 2003, 08:24
Barry,

Skoss writes in the Koryu Bujutsu book that there is now two branches of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. One is headed by Kubota and an other is headed by Shibata Koichi. I belive it's highly unlikly that someone broke out and started an own organization and started awarding dan-ranks. In this case I belive at least some would have heard of it...

That Kubota should hold open seminars seams very unlikly. Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is more or less a closed system and not that open to the public (like judo for example)...The only time Kubota have had a more or less open seminar in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu was in Sweden (1998 I think). At least to my knowledge...

Regards,
Tommy

PS! Happy new year to you also Lee...Really looking forward to meet you and you family again...

Ree
6th January 2003, 09:45
Dear Barry

There is another branch of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in Japan Shibata Sensei,however I do not know his grade.
This branch as far as I know does not have the Dan grade system.

Kubota Sensei does give seminars at the Kodokan but in Kappo to the high ranking Judoka.

With regards to high Dan grades in America or any where else for that matter,if a person obtained a high rank in any of the Koryu (ie Mokuroku etc.) then why change it to a Dan grade?

The grades of Koryu are now well documented of which do not include Dan grades.

Saying this all things are possible.

kind regards

Lee Masters

Ree
6th January 2003, 10:08
Dear Barry

There is another branch of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in Japan Shibata Sensei,however I do not know his grade.
This branch as far as I know does not have the Dan grade system.

Kubota Sensei does give seminars at the Kodokan but in Kappo to the high ranking Judoka.

With regards to high Dan grades in America or any where else for that matter,if a person obtained a high rank in any of the Koryu (ie Mokuroku etc.) then why change it to a Dan grade?

The grades of Koryu are now well documented of which do not include Dan grades.

Saying this all things are possible.

kind regards

Lee Masters

Paul Mathews
6th January 2003, 16:20
Barry,
You might try asking your question on the discussion board at Budoseek.net. Robert Carver, Vice President of USJJF, is the administrator.

MarkF
6th January 2003, 20:32
Hi, Barry,
You could ask Robert Carver, and he will give the lowdown as he knows it on those ranks held by Bruce Bethers.

I didn't know Bethers claimed rank in kito-ryu, but that is an even smaller school than is tenjin shin'yo. They both, at last I heard, are active in Japan though very close knit. If there are two, even then I would ask questions.

Some koryu do use the dan system of ranking students just as some gendai use the menjo. I believe Meik Skoss holds dan grade in at least one koryu. Generally, changes such as these are done due to the spread of a fairly open ryu.

Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu could be said to be gendai but dan grades are not used (Toby Threadgill holds Menkyo Kaiden) . Also, there is Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, most believe it to be koryu, though there isn't much in the way of proof that it passes the "date test" and uses the dan-i system out of necessity, but the ranks are pretty much equal to the older menkyo licensing. Don Angier's aiki bukei started with a commercial school (well, it didn't start, rather he opened one which did not last), then began to teach in the old manner.

It isn't that "all" koryu use anything, nor are all modern systems (it has been a while so may we refer to Meiji era jujutsu and Kodokan Judo the pre-modern styles?).

But some just don't (issue anything but menjo) and anyone considering a school (and is accepted) which claims to teach kito or tenjin shin'yo should ask as many questions one can think of. It isn't any different than asking the same of a gendai system or teacher. They are small, have only a very few students, and remain so, as has kito and Tenshin shin'yo.

Mark

Barry Southam
7th January 2003, 00:00
Friends,


I greatly appreciate all the input..My personal thoughts are that it would be quite rare for someone in the USA to have high level ranks in both of these arts...Not, that it isn't impossible for someone to train in Japan or from a representative in the art woho lives in the USA...Folks I was told there are two people in the Pennsylvania/New Jersey area that teach Kitoryu...Sensei Serge DeCaserin ( Nisei Kitoryu Dojo) and Sensei Kenneth Chism at another location( 6 th dan Kitoryu)....
Then there is George Parulski from Webster New York which is another story all together!!!
I might take the suggestion and try Budoseek.com and ask the question...Not in anyway to put someone down but just to find answers...If you list a rank in these arts, then you shouldn't have any problem giving answers to questions....Questions posed by someone who has an interest and hopes to find answers and contacts and further information...I'd rather see someone be up front and say:
Barry, I have high rank in Judo and decided to use the Kito or Tenjin name to my selfdefense course and I have no formal training specifically in either of the curriculums nor am I connected to Japan in these arts... I really wouldn't like the names being used if you didn't train in the system,etc.,etc.,...I'm seiously concerned for the new student of any art being " hoodwinked" and "double talked" and get in over their heads in systems that might not be authentic...
You all know what I mean....

Actually, I really would like to think their are people here in the USA with legitimate credentials in these arts...

Thank you all for valuable information concerning these arts..Do you think Kubota sensei would share info. as to if he has any students in the USA ? That man in Camden, New Jersey who's at a college...I think shows a picture of himself with Kubota sensei...

Take Care

Barry E. Southam

MarkF
7th January 2003, 00:36
Hi, Barry,
Darn, the memory is the first thing to go when you get as old as you are.:eek:

The URL for BudoSeek! is http://www.budoseek.net . DOT NET or .NET .

If you want to get some information before you publish your question, contact Robert Carver, I think, webmaster@budoseek.net . If that isn't it, after clicking on the link to the fora, you will see he moderates a lot of them, so click on "webmaster" on any of the fora there and his email is available.

He's a good guy, at least he is willing to discuss matters like that, even with me! You don't remember those posts in 1999 in which we hit pretty hard? Even though he's a kid of about 41, he is more mature than that, usually.

At least you can get started and find out. I'd hesitate to refer to any teacher in this country, picures with Kubota or anyone else don't mean squat much of the time, but you know that, you were one of those who warned me when I first started lurking on MA web sites.

*An interesting sidenote in regard to Mr. P in upstate NY. He is a member of E-budo. Interestingly enough, he joined on the same day I emailed him to ask if he would respond to the questions being asked, or submit to an online interview accurate to the last error which I promised would be published in full, no editing at all, or any other way he wished. He did answer some of my own questions, but that was it. Apparently he DID take a look at the then current thread[s] and decided we are too nasty. Date was August 14, 2000. He has never posted here.

I've learned to go in with an open mind, and then let 'em have it.:kiss:


Mark

Ree
7th January 2003, 13:40
Friends

I can only speak from my own experience,having been accepted by a true Koryu (in Japan),training in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and also taking part in Enbu in Japan.

I have also seen the Densho of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

It is true, there is a world of difference between Koryu and Shin Budo.This difference is reflected through both the techniques and the teachers of the style.Therefore you will know when you come across a true Koryu.

kind regards

Lee Masters

Barry Southam
9th January 2003, 02:43
Mark,

Mr. Robert Carver was very gracious in sending me an e mail before I even had one ready to send to him..Concerning Col. Bethers credentials in Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenjin shinyoryu Jujutsu..

Col. Bethers hasn't maintained connections to Japan

Sarted training in Kito and Tenjin shinyoryu under a Mr. John J. Chaffin..Who was a GI stationed in Post war Japan. Chaffin was a student of Koichi Kobayoshi..

After returning to the USA Mr. Chaffin started teaching and one of his first students had been Col. Bethers.

Kobayoshi eventually moved to Oklahoma City and Col. Bethers then studied under both men..

Mr. Robert Carver is a sincere gentleman and vice president of the United States JuJutsu Federation..

Mark, thanks for the suggestion on contacting Mr. Carver, even though he got to me first..Ha!

Take Care

Barry E. Southam

tommysella
9th January 2003, 14:13
Hi!

It would be interesting to know where line of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu that Koichi Kobayoshi practiced in...Does anyone know?

I also find it strange that he used Dan-ranks instead of the normal menkyo-system...

Regards,
Tommy

Ree
14th January 2003, 07:47
Hi Russ

I e-mailed Steve just before Christmas.

Lee

Ree
14th January 2003, 10:28
Hi Russ

I e-mailed Steve just before Christmas.

Lee

Ree
16th January 2003, 15:31
Dear Russ

Thankyou for the message and please send my regards to Steve.
Unfortunately we will be visiting Japan next year.

Going back to the thread,do these other Tenjin Shinyo Ryu groups teach Kata or just techniques?

Kind regards
Lee Masters

Charles Choi
18th January 2004, 07:43
Hi there Chad,

I've come accross the following link to Daniel Lee's Koryu Bujutsu webpage, with reference to the school you are looking for:
http://www.geocities.com/koryu-bujutsu/tenjin.html

MarkF
18th January 2004, 07:52
The most current I know of is:

Located in the North Sydney Police Citizens Youth Club, a branch of Kubota Sensei's Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu has been active for quite a number of years under the direction of George Marton-sensei (Sydney, NSW). Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is an extensive system of over 130 kata of classical jujutsu unarmed combat teaching from seated positions, standing positions, weapons defence, and also includes special healing methods and resuscitation (kappou).

For futher details, please contact:
George Marton sensei (02) 9299-3555 (bh) or email to gsmarton@intalink.com.au


You may want to do a forum or web site search here for it. He has been discussed before (the info. above may be old).


Mark

Daniel Lee
18th January 2004, 11:47
Dear Chad,

While the details Charles kindly posted above are the most recent available, you might find contacting George Marton-sensei by telephone to be the most reliable means of reaching him.

Best,

Steve Delaney
19th January 2004, 22:48
Chad,

I'm a student of George Marton's teacher, Kubota Toshihiro Sensei. If you are still interested, please drop me a message.

Regards,

t-mac
9th July 2006, 11:27
Very late to the thread, having only just found this site, and the information is obviously of no use the original poster, but others may find this of interest or help.....

The only part of the UK where the Art was taught in the traditional style was in the Liverpool/Wirral/Chester/North Wales region, and as far as I am aware there are no longer any active Dojos.

Background:-

An Englishman from Liverpool named Jack Brittain served in the Far East during military sevice - he enrolled in a Dojo under the tutelage of a Sensei named (possibly), as I'm dredging my memory back some 30 years here, Haiiki or Aiiki, just outside Kitami in Hokkaido Prefecture.

At the time of his return to the UK (mid-1950s) he was invited to open a Dojo, which he did in 1956. (Liverpool at the time had a massive Martial Arts heritage - apart from Chinatown, where there were numerous Academies, Senseis Enoida and Kanazwa introduced Shotokan Karate, the famous Red Triangle Dojo opened, Sensei Ezra introduced Aikido, and tournaments in Judo, Thai Boxing, Kendo, GrecoRoman wrestling, and Boxing, were all held in the City on a very regular basis. Visiting sailors to the port also brought various styles to the city dojos.

Due to the intensity of the training, very few students advanced very far, and at the time of Jack Brittains' death, only one student, Jimmy Pape, was judged to be sufficiently advanced to continue teaching the Art.

At some stage a belt grading system had been introduced, based on the Judo sytem in force at the time - apparently this was not appreciated by the practitioners in Japan, but was eventually accepted for Western use only (again this is anecdotal - no paperwork, letters, etc are available to confirm or deny this).

What is indisputable is that when J Pape (an insurance salesman) was transferred to Chester he immediately opened "The School of Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Ju Jutsu" at the Oddfellows Hall in the city centre. The newspaper clippings of Jack Brittain were attached to the notice board (Liverpool Post and Echo, still going, so that may be an area for further research if anyone has any interest in that direction), along with the Certicate of Teaching and Instruction for J Pape (signed by J Brittain and two sets of Japanese characters, probably names, as all higher level gradings were witnessed by 3 instructors) and a Letter of Authorisation for the dojo (source unknown).

From the opening to the closure of the dojo in 1985 a large number of people started training, with the vast majority dropping out within 12 months. A small number eventually gained Shodan or higher grade, some opening clubs in the area, and at one stage there were dojos in Chester, Boughton, Doddleston, Ellesmere Port, Queensferry, Saltney, Mollington, Ruthin, and St Asaph. Some instructors were also involved in training the local Police forces in baton techniques and self-defence. Several members were very active in the NightClub Door Security area, and some had contracts with Police forces training, but again details are hard to recall.

The group declined to join the BMA or the BJJA, staying loosely affiliated with individual Dojos in Japan, on one occassion a Chester student (Derek Fairhurst) spent some time in a Japanes dojo, bringing back a number of previously unseen techniques. There were also visitors to the Chester Dojo from South Africa, Australia, and Belgium, all with letters of introduction, so presumably there are/were Dojos teaching the style in those countries. All Dan grades were recorded and sent to Japan for ratification.

As far as I am aware there are no dojos still active in the region - Senseii Pape died over 10 years ago after moving his Dojo to Saltney, Derek Fairhurst may still have connections with Japan and Mollington (his club was named Tajima Ju Jitsu, and I believe he also published a small students training manual), and I have had no contact with any of the other Senseiis since closing my Dojo in 1990 (double kneee surgery, declining student numbers, and massive insurance costs combining to force closure!).

I no longer train, other than basic exercises and kata, purely for personal fitness.

A list of those I can recall who attained Dan Grades:-

Barry Williams
Colin Williams
Norman Jones
Derek Fairhurst
Keith Grafton
Ronnie Jones
John Ling
Richard ?
Keith Reddy
Dave ? (aka Curly Dave)
Ricky Blundell
Tim Roberts
Tony McCrave

There were also at least 3 Dan grades in North Wales (under Senseii Barry Williams, including one female, but I can't recall any names other than Martin ?) and one Junior at Chester.

Please excuse the ramblings, but the details, such as they are, may help someone interested in the background and origins of this dynamic and effective style of Ju Jitsu.

In closing, a quote remembered over 30 years from a visiting Instructor:-

"There is no perfect martial art - or there would be only one martial art. The best anyone can hope for is to find an art and style that suits their build and personality, and then find an instructor who of that style who is willing to teach them. The rest is up to the student."

T McCrave

Steve Delaney
9th July 2006, 15:48
Derek Fairhurst was a student of Kubota Toshihiro, Shihanke of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu in the mid-1980's. This probably accounts for the unseen techniques, since he lived in Japan for a number of years and recieved Shoden Kirigami Menjo (The first licence recieved in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu).

t-mac
9th July 2006, 19:29
Thank you for the information on Derek - he would have been in his early twenties when he travelled to Japan?

The new techniques were mainly kwoppo and atemi based, but he also brought back the first sword kata that we had seen, and several new bone manipulation techniques.

The booklet he published was called Ju Jutsu - The Science The Art, or possibly Tenshin Shinto Ryu Ju Jutsu - The Science The Art

Further snippets recalled:

- The spelling was variable, sometimes Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, at others Tenshin Shinto Ryu, or various combinations of the two, but the correspondence always had the first version on the letterhead.

- the Chester dojo had a banner with Japanese characters said to translate as "With thy weight and strength I will overcome".

- there was some contact with the USA after one of the North Wales students worked there for 6 months under the "Camp America" scheme (possibly with someone named Walter, or Wally, Jay?)

- one of the Chester courses also had a visit from a Japanese Instructor who was in the UK at a seminar in London (1982?) and travelled to Chester, who professed to have no English and spoke only Japanese, and also took no notice of the belt system, but taught the entire group the same two techniques........for six hours.

regards and respect

Tony McCrave

Steve Delaney
9th July 2006, 22:38
Thank you for the information on Derek - he would have been in his early twenties when he travelled to Japan?

Quite possibly. I have never met the gentleman in question. I have only heard of him via Kubota sensei.



- The spelling was variable, sometimes Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, at others Tenshin Shinto Ryu, or various combinations of the two, but the correspondence always had the first version on the letterhead.

Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is the correct way of writing it according to the Japanese pronunciation of the ryuha, not to mention in historical documents, where furigana (Small hiragana sometimes used in texts to indicate the correct Pronunciation of a term) shows that it is pronounced "Tenjin" and not "Tenshin".
天神真楊流 (てんじんしんようりゅう) Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.


- one of the Chester courses also had a visit from a Japanese Instructor who was in the UK at a seminar in London (1982?) and travelled to Chester, who professed to have no English and spoke only Japanese, and also took no notice of the belt system, but taught the entire group the same two techniques........for six hours.

Was this course sponsored by the WJJF and Robert Clarke? If so that would have been Inoue Tsuyoshi Sensei, the 18th hereditaty headmaster of Hontai Yoshin-ryu jujutsu.

Hope this helps.

GCP
18th July 2006, 13:44
I recently found out about sombody apparantly teaching koryu jujutsu in Chester, UK. But the local newspaper article, I heard about it in, comes over a bit odd. Any thoughts on this:

Article Link (http://iccheshireonline.icnetwork.co.uk/0200sport/0800othersports/tm_objectid=15589797%26method=full%26siteid=50020-name_page.html)

Finny
18th July 2006, 14:52
Odd Indeed.

Tenshin Shino Ryu? or Tenjin Shinyo Ryu?

Oldest martial art? Dating to the 13th Century?

or Dating to the mid 19th Century?

Yudansha Kia? wtf is that? AFAIK kyu/dan and Yudansha are terms not used by koryu....

Things that make you go hmmmm.... dodgy.

ukjitsu
20th July 2006, 16:33
Go to the yahoo geocities website and type in "deeside jujitsu"

I stumbled across it a few weeks ago.

Katsujinken
20th July 2006, 21:10
Graham,

See the posts on this thread:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14701&page=4&pp=15&highlight=Ricky+Blundell

Regards

MWDAndy
21st July 2006, 14:21
Also currently being discussed here:-

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=925637#post925637

anaha
21st July 2006, 23:17
Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu
www.goshinkan.org

Thanks in advance

Steve Delaney
22nd July 2006, 02:40
Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu
www.goshinkan.org

Thanks in advance

The person in question, Mr. Calvin Lester, was a student of Kubota Toshihiro sensei in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu during the early 1980's.

According to Kubota sensei, when I asked about Mr. Lester, he stayed in Japan for about two years, and learned enough to earn Kirigami Menjo. He did learn a few techniques higher than his grade, but didn't come back to Japan again to train after leaving.

I actually printed out the webpage for Kubota sensei to have a look at a few years back and he was not happy with what he saw.

Needless to say, what Mr. Lester teaches is not authentic Tenjin Shinyo-ryu per se. He did learn a certain amount of koryu techniques under the headmaster of one of the lines of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, but didn't complete his training (Flights to Japan in the 1980's were rather pricy if one wasn't living there full-time in those days), has renamed what he does to "Tenjin Shinyo Goshin-ryu" and titled himself as Menkyo Kaiden. It's not koryu.

Hope this helps.

anaha
22nd July 2006, 15:05
The person in question, Mr. Calvin Lester, was a student of Kubota Toshihiro sensei in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu during the early 1980's.

According to Kubota sensei, when I asked about Mr. Lester, he stayed in Japan for about two years, and learned enough to earn Kirigami Menjo. He did learn a few techniques higher than his grade, but didn't come back to Japan again to train after leaving.

I actually printed out the webpage for Kubota sensei to have a look at a few years back and he was not happy with what he saw.

Needless to say, what Mr. Lester teaches is not authentic Tenjin Shinyo-ryu per se. He did learn a certain amount of koryu techniques under the headmaster of one of the lines of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, but didn't complete his training (Flights to Japan in the 1980's were rather pricy if one wasn't living there full-time in those days), has renamed what he does to "Tenjin Shinyo Goshin-ryu" and titled himself as Menkyo Kaiden. It's not koryu.

Hope this helps.


Thanks, I was going to join his dojo, but now I will look elsewhere.

Thanks again.

Ree
24th July 2006, 07:39
Hi all

Hear is some further info on Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the U.K.


http://www.planetjitsu.com/viewtopic.php?t=14876&sid=70a7f182ed4e4e8b6b84252df1c0857d

Ree
25th July 2006, 07:39
Hi all
Forget the above post here it is, it is a reponse to Jo Biggs inquiry into the Vernon Bell lineage of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu:-

Dear Mr.Jo Biggs,

Thank you for your enquiry into Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Ju-Jutsu.
I feel it is my duty and about time that the record is put straight regarding Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
Like all Koryu of Japan, Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is regarded as a national heritage. All headmasters of a Koryu are very proud and protective of their art and quite rightly so.

I am going to outline some facts and background that may answer your questions regarding Mr. Vernon Bell and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
While Vernon was alive there were three main lineages of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
One was Tobari Tokusaburo and his wife Tobari Kazu from the Inoue Keitaro lineage. The second was Shibata Koichi from Miyamoto Hanzo lineage and the third was my Sensei Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke whose teacher was Sakamoto Fusataro.

First, from my research the Tobari line did not accept Gaijin students and this line is all but extinct today.
Secondly, Shibata Koichi has to my knowledge never given courses in this country and Vernon had told me that he had never been to Japan. Thirdly, Vernon was definitely not a student or member of my lineage i.e. Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke. Also Vernon did not have or could not produce any Menjo Kirigami or Mokuroku, Menkyo or Menkyo Kaiden scroll. These are the proof of your transmission and lineage.

I started my martial art career in 1966 with Vernon, first learning some judo then moving on to karate and ju-jutsu. The style of ju-jutsu Vernon told me I was learning was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu or Tenshin Shinyo Ryu as he sometimes termed it and whose founder was Iso Mataemon. At this time I trained with him everyday, sometimes 2-3 times a day, both in karate and ju-jutsu. After several years we parted. We rekindled our relationship in the mid 90’s when I undertook private lessons from him, sometimes twice a week, in what he again told me was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. During this period he told me that I was to become his successor and head of the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu organisation for this country. I have a signed letter from him to this effect.
By this time I had dedicated most of my life to teaching and training other students including my son in the martial arts, in what I thought was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

Following this several things happened that started putting doubt in my mind that what Vernon professed to be Tenjin Shinyo Ryu was in fact a Goshin westernised style of ju-jutsu. I questioned Vernon as to the validity of the system of the style of ju-jutsu we were doing and he was still adamant that it was the true Tenjin Shinyo Ryu of Iso Mataemon.
He told me he had learnt it from a Japanese gentleman by the name of Seishi Teppi while in the airforce and stationed in South Africa, but in my own heart I knew all was not correct.
As yet I have not been able to trace any information on Seishi Teppi, but even if this was true and I do not doubt that it was, whatever the Japanese gentleman taught Vernon, it was not Tenjin Shinyo Ryu as neither the techniques or syllabus resembled anything like what I now know as Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
I have to say we parted company and I held a feeling of animosity towards him. However, that was now something like 11 years ago and much has happened to me in my martial arts career. I have also had time to reflect on the whole situation and I now personally believe that Vernon sincerely felt he had been taught and was teaching Tenjin Shinyo Ryu because probably this is what he was incorrectly told and this probably goes for many others out there. But I ask, if you cannot prove your lineage and do not have the correct credentials, then please,please do not call it Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. As we put in our first post, there is only one Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

Regarding the late Mr. Bell, I do not now feel any animosity towards him and he should be remembered as the ‘Father of British Karate’ because this is fact and he relentlessly worked to establish the karate movement for this country and seeing today how many people practice karate, he was surely successful and therefore must go down in history as a great man.

I would like to finish this long discourse by saying my only teacher now is Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke and the only martial art that I practice and teach is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I am the only westerner to date to have been taught the Gokui techniques, these are the higher secretive techniques of our style. In fact in July last year while I was training in Japan Sensei taught me the Kuden and told me that I was his first student that he had ever taught Kuden to. The Kuden is the inner teaching of our Ryu and contains all the principles behind the 124 fighting katas of our style and this was the last thing his teacher the late Sakamoto Sensei taught him. Also in July last year my son Lee was awarded his Mokuroku. He is the first person to be awarded this transmission under the authority of the Tenyokai U.K. and this was recognised and ratified in Japan by Kubota Sensei, President of the Tenyokai Japan.
I tell you this not to blow my own trumpet but to give you the facts as they are.

If I am a quarter as successful as Mr. Vernon Bell in propagating Tenjin Shinyo Ryu as he was in karate then I will be truly satisfied.

Paul Masters
President Tenyokai U.K.
Menkyo Tenjin Shinyo Ryu

Ree
25th July 2006, 16:08
Hi all

Here is a brief history of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu:-

www.Fightmag.co.uk

Thanks

NickOpenshaw
5th September 2006, 08:53
Hi,

I am one of the Dan's of the club everyone knows on here as Deeside Ju Jitsu club. I have also trained with the guys at the Chester Ju Jitsu Club. These two clubs are linked by a lineage to Jim Pape.

The Yudansha Kai is as far as I know a modern club set up by the Senior Black belts at the Chester club. It is not a style but membership is dependant on being a black belt of a recognised standard. They have a web site which gives a description of the lineage. I have no reason to disagree with what they state on this and we share the lineage from Jimmy going backwards. There website is http://www.yudanshakai.co.uk/.

When training with the Chester club and her sister club in Oxford I have found many of the techniques to be very similar as one would expect from those shareing the same lineage. I was shown great respect and was even invited to wear my black belt and teach at the club in Oxford.

I am amazed by the lack of respect of several members of the forum who have posted to this and the martial arts planet link who have implied the Chester clubs are worthless. Anyone who has practiced martial arts for sometime should realise that you need to train on a mat before making judgement.

As far as are we Tenjin Shinyo or not. The name varies due to translation from Japanese to English. The sounds used by the Japanese do not match those in English and are therfore an approximation. This means neither Tenjin or Tenshin are incorrect. This is similar to Koshi or Goshi for hip in hip throw. Secondly fighting styles were rarely written down in early Japan. So official lineages were probably not used either. It was important what you knew and that, like teaching was determined by word of mouth.

The basis of the "official lineage" of this thread seems based on Iso Mataemon. I have found mention in Judo history on the web that state Jigaro Kano learnt Tensjin Shinyo Ju Jitsu from two contemporaries one of which was Iso the other being Fakuda.

Bearing in mind that advertising and the numbers of people able to travel to Japan has increased hugely since the second world war it has become increasingly important to legitimise a style and market it. If you believe the history on the yudansha kai website then Tani in 1899 would have no reason to promote one style more than the other. He proved if it was any good in sideshows by beating boxers. It is for that reason people would ask to be taught by him. Why should he choose to tell his pupils they were learning Tenshin Shinyo rather than anything else unless it was true.

As an academic at heart I would like to see the evidence that Lee and his father have collected to feel that they are the true representatives of Tenshin or Tenjin Ju Jitsu. It may be that they are correct and we are wrong but I would advise people to do their own research if this is important to them. It is not as clear cut as looking at scrolls and there is much vested interest these days.

To finish I can say that myself and Ricky Blundell would welcome anyone who wishes to see what we do. I am in the process of building an official club site at www.tenshinshinyo.org. My address is Nick@tenshinshinyo.org and Ricky's is shihan@tenshinshinyo.org.

Hope this clarifies some of the discussion.

Nick

Steve Delaney
5th September 2006, 10:30
Hi,

As far as are we Tenjin Shinyo or not. The name varies due to translation from Japanese to English. The sounds used by the Japanese do not match those in English and are therfore an approximation. This means neither Tenjin or Tenshin are incorrect. This is similar to Koshi or Goshi for hip in hip throw. Secondly fighting styles were rarely written down in early Japan.

The name does not vary due to translation from Japanese to English. There are copious amounts of documentation in Japanese with furigana (kana syllabry used to denote pronounciation) it was always pronounced as Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

As for koshi and goshi, yes it is the same word, but one is used alone and the other is used in suffix form, in usage with a related word. (e.g. harai goshi, utsuri goshi, hane goshi, etc.)


So official lineages were probably not used either. It was important what you knew and that, like teaching was determined by word of mouth.

No, there is documentation of this too. Anyone who had proper authorisation to teach (That would be of Mokuroku, Menkyo or Menkyo Kaiden rank)would have been listed in the ryuha's eimeiroku (Student register).


The basis of the "official lineage" of this thread seems based on Iso Mataemon. I have found mention in Judo history on the web that state Jigaro Kano learnt Tensjin Shinyo Ju Jitsu from two contemporaries one of which was Iso the other being Fakuda.

That's Fukuda. Fukuda sensei died early, so Kano shihan went to learn from the 3rd hereditary headmaster, Iso sensei to complete his training.



As an academic at heart I would like to see the evidence that Lee and his father have collected to feel that they are the true representatives of Tenshin or Tenjin Ju Jitsu. It may be that they are correct and we are wrong but I would advise people to do their own research if this is important to them. It is not as clear cut as looking at scrolls and there is much vested interest these days.

Actually, if the scrolls are from a legitimate source and the lineage is undisputable (note in another post on this forum, related to another Tenjin Shinyo-ryu matter, Kubota sensei's inauguration as Shihanke & Menkyo kaiden of the ryuha in the late 1970's was witnessed by a large number of the high ranking individuals in the koryu community. Photographs of the documentation were taken, stamps and all.), it really is just that simple.

Respect.

fifthchamber
5th September 2006, 14:05
And it would be "Shihan", not "Shehan" too..Your website is an interesting one. I would personally change the sign that reads "Ju-jitsu a$$." as it may be taken in the wrong light..Your call.
And that's Ju-jutsu as well, while we're on that subject. Japanese is Japanese and the sounds are rather easy to tell apart, now that we have a more uniform and standardised method for translation it ceases to be an issue. And does the kanji on the site mean Tenjin? 天神? Right? Or something else? I'm afraid I can't read it easily.
Regards.

NickOpenshaw
5th September 2006, 16:55
Steve,

Thanks for your educational reply. It is nice to be treated with the respect that normally comes from people who take martial arts seriously. It seems a pity that fifth chamber feels it necessary to get a dig in.

I consider that ratification of a single lineage in the 1970's seemed to miss my point. Because of one many lineages are ratified by a group of admitedly learned gentleman nearly a hundred years after does not invalidate the others automatically. As stated after the war and certainly in the 1970's due to Bruce Lee films the martial arts became very comercialised. If you were to be synical, as I have a tendency to be, ratification of a single line is very advantagous to a single group for marketing their education and chargeing for the priveledge.

I would appreciate any constructive support in tracing the lineage we have back. I am sure there is much of truth with what is said in the history given by the Chester club and you seem to know about Derek Fairhurst who is largely responsible for the Oxford and Chester side of the lineage. His clubs seem to demonstrate many of the techniques we also use. If you believe that he has some legitamate connection with Tenjin Shinyo Ryu then maybe someone can enquire what he thinks the difference between the styles are as he studied under Jimmy Pape along with my instructor until a disagreement between the two split the clubs.

My knowledge of Kanji is non existent. I have simply tried to copy club badges which I am sure have been re-drawn by people with as little knowledge as me. I was trying to validate what was written when I found the original article. The badge currently on my website was redrawn by me about 5 or more years ago. When checking against the club badge on my Gi I found the symbols not to match. I cannot recall what I originally copied so intend to validate what should be on the badge.

Any support in developing a site that is as accurate as possible would be much apprectiated.

Finally may I remind people of what was said the other site was an unofficial web site built as a college project. The videos that people seem to be up in arms about are not of curiculum moves but just random clips of a training session. I feel people should attend a class and explain politely their reasoning behind why we are legitimate rather than crying fowl with little knowledge.

Having attended many classes nothing to do with my club I have found the style to be effective. I have received comments from students on other mats that my style is much more technical than that taught on their own mats. I would appreciate it if any other derogatory comments were witheld until people have proper knowledge of what we do. That said suggestions or support on getting the full and correct story to our club would be much appreciated.

Thanks again for your positive input and I hope others will follow suit.

Nick

Ron Tisdale
5th September 2006, 17:56
I don't think the other gentleman was trying to be rude. He was pointing out that communication is easier if a little work goes into a post. If you use his information, after confirming it to be true, people will definately respect your efforts.

Also, please do not confuse having an authentic link to a koryu lineage with the ability to rumble on the mat with other groups, or as a sign post of effective technique. Different areas, and one does not guarantee the other. So one should not be used to excuse a deficiency in the other.

Best,
Ron

fifthchamber
5th September 2006, 23:37
I don't believe that I ever made any "digs" at you. I simply pointed out that there were some things that could be improved on your website and listed them here. I believe that people look at things like this to reflect you and your art and if they are left as they were I think you might lose some of your prestige. That's all.
If that offended you I apologise.
Regards.

Steve Delaney
6th September 2006, 16:31
Steve,

Thanks for your educational reply. It is nice to be treated with the respect that normally comes from people who take martial arts seriously. It seems a pity that fifth chamber feels it necessary to get a dig in.

He didn't. He was being neighbourly and corrected mistakes that were apparent. Ben also lives in Japan and is in good position to know what he is talking about.

Kind regards ,

Stephen Delaney

NickOpenshaw
6th September 2006, 23:03
Ben,

May I apologise. Your comment with $$ in them implied you were adding something that was not there. It appeared you were trying to imply the club was an !!!. When you put it in full context of the club badge not the "sign" then it becomes clear you were not being insulting. "Tenshin Shinyo Ju Jitsu !!!." is short for Association. This has been on the club badge for years as far as I know and never caused a problem till now.

Having talked to my Shihan, by the way I got the email address right but the web site details wrong, he tells me that a badge we have on our belts is correct. While it does not look identical to 天神 it is very similar. The second character is split in two halves. The box section is rounded at the corners not square. The left hand side is two v's mirored vertically with a vertical joining them and an accent above. I will try and draw the badge to match. Your opinion of the updated image would be appreciated. Does this just stand for Tenjin? There are seven characters on the belt. The additional characters are close to 柔術 which I understand to be Ju Jitsu or Ju Jutsu which ever you prefer.

I will try and redraw the club badge characters again to match the one on my Gi. They are slightly different again. This is marked enough to make me wonder if they are truly different Japanese characters. Any interpretation would be helpful. Any volunteers?

As far as official interpretation of Japanese to English I am sure it is quite likely that standardisation took place in the 1900's, during or after the time our lineage is supposed to transfer to Liverpool. It is quite believable that this is true as Liverpool was one of the worlds biggest ports at the time and had many nationalities passing through. Many also stayed. A scouser is likely to make a different interpretation of the Japanese on the mat to an Oxbridge educated (as they often were in the early 1900's) scholar discussing this with a Japanese Scholar.

If anyone would like to come and see what we do they and pass constructive comment would be more than welcome. I would suspect our curriculum moves are the most likely to coincide with other Tenjin Shinyo clubs. It is quite possible that along the way other moves have been added to the club knowledge either from experimentation or from other sources. Indeed it is likely that this happened in the original Ryu. In the same way some original moves may have been lost in one lineage but survived in another. Maybe a little less purest view should be taken as you may discover with research that gaps can be filled by studying other lineages if they turn out to be traceable back to source.

Just my thoughts

Nick

MikeWilliams
7th September 2006, 11:46
Off topic, but is Ricky Blundell related to James Blundell (or Kenny Blundell of Lowlands Jujitsu (http://www.jiu-jitsu.freeserve.co.uk/soke.htm) ?)

The geography matches, as well as the name. No agenda here, I'm just curious, and it would help tie up a few loose ends in the history of post war British JJ.

NickOpenshaw
7th September 2006, 23:10
Mike to my knowledge there is no connection. I will check with Ricky next week.

jujitsuwilliam
12th October 2006, 14:10
I have read with interest the comments of Paul Masters in relation to Vernon Bell and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. The concept of Mr Masters argument is that no true linage exists unless directly from Japan. If you accept that proposition, then you subscribe to the view that Yukio Tani and Uyenishi, students of Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, who arrived in England at the beginning of the 20th centaury, did not teach Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when of course they did, or that their pupils, who became teachers, and their pupils and so on, did not create a linage in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu outside of Japan, when of course they did. Equally, such a concept would deny that there is an interface between Judo and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when it is well documented that Kano originally studied Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu. Such is the lack of a full written history of Tenshin; it is impossible to fully connect every linage. In order to judge the credentials of Bell Shihan, you have to know the person. Bell Shihan was not just a student all his life in martial arts; he was a student all his life. His full title is was The Revd Dr Vernon C F Bell, BSc, MSc, and Ph D. He practiced in alternative medicine, being a renowned therapist, and was a skilled hypnotist, entertaining amongst others, the Law Society at Leeds Castle. He continued learning until the day he died. Bell Shihan had a photographic memory and could recall any number of defences to a single attack. In 1968, he co formed The European Jujitsu Union, (EJJU) and also The International Jujitsu Federation, (IJJF) and were established at the Nippon Sebukan in Kyoto Japan. In 1984 class B membership was granted to both organisations by the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation, and the International Council of Sports Science and Physical Education. It would be true to say that his position is very well cemented in Japan

He was a master in martial arts, learning Yosikan Karate under Henri Plee in Paris, judo under Kenshrio Abbe, and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu, under Seishi Teppi, in South Africa. Seishi Teppi originally formed the Kodekwan Jujitsu School in 1928 in South Africa, teaching Tenshin Shinyo Ryu jujitsu. As I have said Bell Shihan had a photographic memory

Bell Shihan, taught a demanding syllabus, and the county of Essex is inundated with, with former pupils who trained with him, for just a few years, many simply on an on and off basis. Unfortunately they nearly all fell by the wayside, and only a few of us, barely a handful completed that syllabus to shodan. Some even found it easier to travel abroad for their qualifications and should be commended for their effort. Never the less all, or perhaps nearly all regarded him with true admiration, affection and gratitude. It is pleasing that Mr Masters should feel that he has now rid himself of the animosity to Bell Shihan, unfortunately in the true tradition of a Grand Master, (and although a man of great compassion) to the day of his death Bell Shihan never reciprocated the feeling towards Paul Masters

Steve Delaney
13th October 2006, 11:15
[B]I have read with interest the comments of Paul Masters in relation to Vernon Bell and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. The concept of Mr Masters argument is that no true linage exists unless directly from Japan.

If you accept that proposition, then you subscribe to the view that Yukio Tani and Uyenishi, students of Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, who arrived in England at the beginning of the 20th centaury, did not teach Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when of course they did, or that their pupils, who became teachers, and their pupils and so on, did not create a linage in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu outside of Japan, when of course they did.

Well sir, you would need some solid historical documentation of this to substantiate this claim. It's possible to surmise that both instructors, Uenishi & Tani taught some Tenjin Shinyo-ryu waza as an example of the differences between Kodokan judo & koryu jujutsu, but without any real proof, it's just conjecture. Likewise with your claim above.


Equally, such a concept would deny that there is an interface between Judo and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when it is well documented that Kano originally studied Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu. Such is the lack of a full written history of Tenshin; it is impossible to fully connect every linage.

In English yes, but in Japanese, the history is quite well recorded in several volumes. Selected kuden (oral teachings) and historical incidents are still recorded and preserved.


In 1968, he co formed The European Jujitsu Union, (EJJU) and also The International Jujitsu Federation, (IJJF) and were established at the Nippon Sebukan in Kyoto Japan. In 1984 class B membership was granted to both organisations by the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation, and the International Council of Sports Science and Physical Education. It would be true to say that his position is very well cemented in Japan

If this is the case, why is it that no-one in Japan who has done koryu or gendai budo have ever heard of him then?

Not trying to be obtuse, but just wanting some clarifications on some things.

jujitsuwilliam
18th November 2006, 15:05
Thank you leprechaun, do I detect a touch of the Blarney? As you are aware Bell Shihan studied more than one system, and his work in Karate was published before his death, in the form of a book "Shotokan Dawn". Unfortunately he died before we could really get into the work on his life in Jujitsu. To say he is not known in Japan is not true, the organisations that he founded are as previously stated fully recorded, though I would accept your instant would be reposte, that the organisations were to include all styles of Jujitsu. Clearly he had no connection with your mentor Toshirio Kubota, and perhaps not with others in Japan who also claim to teach Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, separate from Kubota, despite the denials of Kubota. He does have a direct connection with Seishi Teppi, but since he founded his school in 1928, I have no way of knowing in what form Seshi Teppi taught and there in lays the rub, which affects us all, despite the chronicles to which you refer.
I am in the process of investigating a full history for Bell shihan, which is unfortunately hampered by missing important documents, Bell shihan always said stolen fom him, though i could not possibly know that. I hope to publish further information one day of his life in jujutsu noteably with Seishi Teppi, in time of course. So watch this space, one day, perhaps

fifthchamber
19th November 2006, 12:36
Dear Sir,
Do you know the kanji used to write the name Seiji Teppi?And is the last name Teppi?Quite an unusual one for Japanese..But they may have had steel doors made and used that name...
My regards..And good luck in your quest.

jujitsuwilliam
21st November 2006, 08:29
Many thanks Ben, its really difficult tracing information on, documents and certificates that have gone missing. I even suspect that a person in the north of england, used a photo that I took several years ago of a Bell Shihan scroll for his own web site. Somewhat faint, but the refection on the glass tends to give it away. If you have any other ideas they will be most welcome, at any time. The only currant information that I have on Seishi Teppi, is that he opened his school in south africa in 1928, and left to return home in 1946/47/48. Is this another Japanese gentleman using alternative names

Ree
4th December 2006, 12:37
Much has been said in the last several months concerning our Ryu Ha – Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
For the uninitiated out there, exactly what is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu?

This style of Ju-Jutsu originated in Japan and is regarded as a Koryu. It was founded by Iso Mataemon around 1830.
The syllabus of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is taught and practised at 5 transmission levels. These being:
Shodan, Chudan, Mokuroku, Menkyo and Menkyo Kaiden.
These levels are taught in a progressive, systematic manner.

The Shodan level of transmission
The teaching comprises of four distinct kamae, Chokuritsu, Hira no Kamae, Itchi Monji no Kamae and Hira Itchi Monji no Kamae.
The correct Reishiki which includes how to bow to the Sensei and the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu combat bow, the TSR kiai or shout (spirit coming together)which is different to most martial art forms in as much as the breath is taken inwards and downwards to the kikai tanden with the tongue assuming a specific position. During the course of the Shoden level of training the student would be taught how to wear the hakama and teppi which are worn traditionally in TSR at certain designated times, normally for formal demonstrations.

The first set of katas that are taught are known as Te Hodoki (literally means hand escapes). There are 12 of these kata.
My teacher Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke told me that traditionally these were taught within the first 3-6 months of the students training. They are the very fundamental techniques of the Ryu Ha and are used to test the student’s character. As to whether the Sensei teaches the student further is determined on how well he conducts himself during this process.
We adopt this system in the Tenyokai U.K.

Following the Te-Hodoki the next series of kata taught are the Shodan Idori. There are 10 of these, the first being ‘Shin No Kurai’. This kata originates in the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu from Yoshin Ryu as TSR has its origins in two older styles of Ju-Jutsu, namely the Yoshin Ryu and Shin no Shindo Ryu. The TSR version however differs slightly from the Yoshin Ryu as it contains more Atemi Waza which is traditionally known in TSR as ‘Sappou Jutsu’. Next in the Shodan transmission is the Shodan Tachiai series of kata, again there are 10 of these beginning with ‘Yuki Chigai’.
When the student of TSR has become proficient in these kata he will receive a licence in the form of a Kiri Gami Menjo (cut paper). The Shodan level is the basic level and the Kiri Gami Menjo is not regarded as a teaching licence.

The Chudan level of transmission
Comprises of 28 katas, 14 are Idori and 14 Tachiai. The Chudan level is regarded as an intermediate level and contains many arresting-type techniques such as’ Hiki Tate’ from the Chudan Idori and ‘Tsure Byoshi’ from Chudan Tachiai These katas are the influence of the Shino Shindo Ryu as the founder of this style was a policeman.
When proficient the student is again awarded the Kiri Gami Menjo (cut paper) with the official seals of the Ryu Ha.

Mokuroku level of transmission
Mokuroku literally means catalogue. At this level the student will be taught the ‘Nagesute’ which literally means to throw away or to dump. Nagesute comprises of 20 katas, all performed from Tachiai. These katas depart from the original katas of the Yoshin Ryu and Shin no Shindo Ryu as they were the direct creation of our founder Iso Mataemon, while in a meditative state at the Tenmangu Temple in Kyoto and during Muga Shugyo, travelling around the country challenging exponents of other styles of Ju-Jutsu.
It is said that he never lost a contest but gained a lot of experience with this kind of austere training. The Nagesute Katas are designed to make the breakfall for the uke (receiver) very difficult to apply, also this series of katas are useful when fighting multiple opponents.

Also at this level of transmission the student is introduced to ‘Sasoi Kappou’ revival and resuscitation methods.

Menkyo level of transmission
At this level another makimono licence is issued once the student has become proficient in the 24 katas of Shiai Ura and the 10 katas of the Gokui Tachiai, plus the teaching of the ‘Eri Kappou’.
The Shiai Ura set of katas are designed with contest in mind and teach the student direct attacking methods with some devastating ‘Sappou Jutsu’ or more commonly known as Atemi Waza. There are also very clever reversal techniques against opponent’s attacks.

The Gokui Tachiai Katas are, along with the Gokui Idori, regarded as the most advanced secretive levels of kata that are only taught to students who demonstrate a very high skill. The 10 Gokui Tachiai contain numerous ‘Sappou Jutsu’ techniques aimed to disrupt the nervous and arterial systems of the body as well as to cause injury to the internal organs of the body. Many of the Gokui Tachiai katas are highly technical in both the timing and entering on the opponent; examples of these are Tengu Shou and Tegane Dori.
For Menkyo the practitioner also learns further revival resuscitation methods known as Eri Kappou.
Regarding Kappou, my teacher Kubota Toshihiro is regarded as an expert instructor in this aspect and has taught many high ranking Judoka at the Kodokan, being himself a 7th Dan in Kodokan judo.

Menkyo Kaiden level of transmission
At this level the practitioner of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu has been taught and mastered everything there is in the syllabus. This includes the Gokui Idori 10 Katas and the 5 Kuden. The 10 Gokui Idori complete the 124 Katas of the syllabus. The last kata in this series is not only combative but has a symbolic meaning which was taught to me by Kubota Sensei and which I cannot disclose in such an article.

Kuden
In the techniques of the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu the Kuden comprises of five katas. These katas are taught as the ‘Okuden’ and are the last skills to be taught. They are taught by individual instruction only.
These five techniques are not fighting techniques as such, they are however important concepts that once mastered can be applied when performing the 124 fighting katas of the Ryu Ha. Like all the techniques of TSR they should be performed with the concept of ‘Shi-Ki-Ryoku’. This concept was inscribed when the founder of TSR, Iso Mataemon died at 76 years of age in 1863, as it was a concept he emphasised when teaching TSR.

Weaponry in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
The weaponry used mainly in TSR for practice purposes are the ‘Bokken, one long one representing the Katana and one short one representing the Wakizashi, or Daito and Shoto. However, the shorter bokken used can also represent the ‘Jutte’ which is regarded as the number one weapon in TSR.

What is very important to realise is that the syllabus and teaching outlined here is not a figment of my imagination. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu,is well documented in Japan in the form of old makimono, densho and texts. Like most Koryu the teaching and syllabus never changes from generation to generation.

As for Yukio Tani and ‘Raku’ Uyenishi, there is no evidence to suggest that they taught or practised TSR in this country. Extensive research suggests they had their origins in the Fusen Ryu Ju-Jutsu.

Finally, I would like to finish by mentioning a small part of a Chinese scroll referring to the aim of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, given to my teacher Kubota Toshihiro by his teacher Sakamoto Fusataro when he passed on the mantle of the teachings of TSR.
“If people try to resolve conflict using force, then opponents will respond in kind by fighting back with force. Nothing is to be gained by this”.

I hope all of the above clarifies what Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is and that it helps all people who are genuinely interested in understanding what is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Ju-Jutsu.


Paul Masters
President
Tenyokai U.K.
Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Ju-Jutsu

swblock
4th January 2007, 17:55
Greetings, all.

There has been some vigorous discussion in the recent past regarding Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu.

First, by way of introduction, I am the ‘creator’ and ‘administrator’ of the Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu web presence. There was a comment made that Kubota Sensei saw a print out of the former Goshinkan.org website and “was not pleased.” Yes, I fully expect he wouldn’t have been. How could he? The site didn’t provide the right insight and attitude of Bujyutsu.

At the time when I first created the website, over 10 years ago, I was a mid-level junior student who had just been introduced to the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. Until then, all of my training had been in Budo, specifically Karate and Bando. To say I didn’t fully understand the Koryu, or Goshinjyutsu is a vast understatement. Nevertheless, I endeavored. I take full responsibility for that and the confusion that surrounds Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu today.

My initial website was an attempt to share my understanding of the style with the world. It was a selfish motivation. It was as if I was saying, “hey, look here…see what we’re doing…see how special this is.” While it is true that Mr. Lester knew what I was doing, I’m sure he too, just like Kubota Sensei, was not fully pleased with my presentation. Still, he gave me ample space, but didn’t allow me to go too far. I recall many frustrations of not being allowed to present “this or that.”

Today, ten years the wiser, as I look back on what I presented of the style, I see the errors of my interpretation. I can only smile at the knowledge of how much patience Mr. Lester has extended to me. For anyone who has children, it is easy to understand how he would have allowed me to express myself in the best manner I knew how, at the time. But, here’s the thing: he couldn’t tell me or share how shallow my presentation was because quite simply, I was not ready for it.

This past year, my daughter and son have begun their training. Each of them is just like me, full of curiosity. They, also just like me, like to seek and ask questions that are miles and miles down the road. I chuckle at how I have to respond to them in the same manner Mr. Lester has to respond to me. I smile. I listen. I give them an answer they are able to understand. Yet, many times, that answer is without completeness.

For those of you who actively train, you know as I do that learning never ends. I’m sure in time, what I will come to know and appreciate ten years from now will make my current understanding pale in comparison. But, that is the natural way.

The new, GoshinRyu.org website I posted towards late 2005 is more representative of the true essence of the style. It is complete for as far as the internet is appropriate. Moreover, I believe the section called, “TenJin Shinyo GoShin Ryu - An Insight,” says everything that needs to be said about the respect and honor the style warrants.

It reads:

“Iso Mataemon Masanobu, the 4th Headmaster, wrote a book in 1894 that included the original history of TenJin Shinyo Ryu's beginning. Kubota Toshihiro, the current Headmaster, provided additional history of the School in a 1983 publication. The historical knowledge pointed to the uniqueness of the School's creation. Both Jyujyutsu and Goshinjyutsu were developed by the Founder - Iso Mataemon Minamoto No Masatari and configured into the original Style. The inspirational and Divine guidance, spearheading both developments, were quite unique and happened on two separate occasions. TenJin Shinyo Ryu's greatest popularity period was the catapult for teaching the Goshinjyutsu. TenJin Shinyo GoShin Ryu is the Style taught in the United States, which initially places the emphasis upon the GoShinjyutsu and thereafter continues seamlessly into the Jyujyutsu.”

Additionally, there has been discussion regarding what Mr. Lester actually learned and achieved as a disciple of Kubota Sensei. In response to various assertions and assumptions, allow me to say this: there are many publications from Kubota Sensei and those that preceded him, which speak to and validate the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, and thus the existence of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu. It is Koryu.

Secondly, please allow me to ask three questions.

1. Would Mr. Kubota allow anyone, other than someone he held in very high esteem, to be photographed while sitting along side him with their hands in their laps, while his most senior students (at the time) are *standing* behind?

2. Would Mr. Kubota allow anyone, other than someone he held in very high esteem, take his place in a demonstration at a most sacred shrine. In addition, would Mr. Kubota loan his own Hakama and Obi to be worn by this individual during the demonstration, in the presence of other prominent Headmasters of Koryu?

3. Is it reasonable to assume that Mr. Kubota would have done these things with someone who only had a junior license and a few higher skills? If not, then the earlier assertions by some, of who Mr. Lester is and what Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu is, must be reconsidered.

If anyone is at fault for the juvenile manner in which this style was presented in the past, it would be me.

Harmony is the flower of virtue,
Bujyutsu is the protector.

Later today, I will post this message (partially) on the GoshinRyu.org website.

Thank you.

Steve Delaney
5th January 2007, 10:56
Additionally, there has been discussion regarding what Mr. Lester actually learned and achieved as a disciple of Kubota Sensei. In response to various assertions and assumptions, allow me to say this: there are many publications from Kubota Sensei and those that preceded him, which speak to and validate the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, and thus the existence of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu. It is Koryu.

Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. The name of a koryu school founded in the 1830's, changed by someone who isn't given permission to change it? Once you start changing the teaching format and techniques, let alone the name, it ceases being koryu.

You can make Oyo waza. Hell, jujutsu is all about being fluid and adapting with situations, that's why koryu jujutsu use scenario drills in their kata. That's why we have weapons negotiation techniques, techniques against strikes, hair grabs throat grabs against the wall, etc etc.

It is the kata in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu that allows you to create such oyo. Furthermore, Kubota sensei teaches Kodokan goshinjutsu, the Kodokan nage no kata and kime no kata to show how Tenjin Shinyo-ryu techniques can be adapted for less anachronistic situations.




Secondly, please allow me to ask three questions.

1. Would Mr. Kubota allow anyone, other than someone he held in very high esteem, to be photographed while sitting along side him with their hands in their laps, while his most senior students (at the time) are *standing* behind?

Why do I have a very similar photograph like this of myself with him when I left Japan, sitting on my mantlepiece? It's a momento. I have photos of myself with his family and students. It's important to us as individuals, but shouldn't be used as a point of legitimacy.


2. Would Mr. Kubota allow anyone, other than someone he held in very high esteem, take his place in a demonstration at a most sacred shrine. In addition, would Mr. Kubota loan his own Hakama and Obi to be worn by this individual during the demonstration, in the presence of other prominent Headmasters of Koryu?

We do Yasukuni Jinja twice, sometimes three times a year. When I was first starting out as a young gassoon, I forgot or lost my teppi. Kubota sensei gave me a loan of his own. It's just his very generous nature. He's a very nice man to those who really want to learn the koryu properly.


3. Is it reasonable to assume that Mr. Kubota would have done these things with someone who only had a junior license and a few higher skills? If not, then the earlier assertions by some, of who Mr. Lester is and what Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu is, must be reconsidered.

I have heard Kubota sensei's own opinions on this, and no, it should not be reconsidered.

As I pointed out above, Kubota shihan is a very generous man to juniors. He was very generous and supportive to me when one of my family members passed away while living in Japan. I was unable to return at the time, and Kubota sensei arranged for a whip 'round for the dojo to enable me to buy and send a wreath from Japan.

Kubota sensei, after every training session in Tokyo almost always says similar things about the sempai, kohai relationship in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu - There is none. No sempai and no kohai, we're all members of the same family and we help each other better our techniques in the ryuha, via Jita Kyoei (自他共栄 ) selfless, mutual benefit.

swblock
16th January 2007, 14:38
In conclusion to my contribution to this discussion, I'd like to refer all who are interested to three books / publications which speak to the origin of and/or impetus to create Tenjin Shinyo Ryu's Goshinjyutsu and it's development by the founder, thus making it Koryu.

1. Nippon Jyujyutsu, Chapter 5, page 122
Japan Book of Formal Military Ways


Excerpt:

>>> Inlet Door - Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu

The inlet door period began when the disturbances of war caused crisis and emergencies. All organized assemble was suppressed by Armed Forces. Opponents used their bare hands to attack and assault. They dealt with skill, vigorously.

The aim, goal of the new body research, added this System to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu which flowed originally from our Ancestor whose development of crude Foot and Leg movements corrected by truth was the originating source.

The fame, reputation of our Ancestor's skill was throughout the whole country. This influenced five thousand people to receive passage of this approach. The System was transmitted to "Respect and Honor Human Life," even when wounding an opponent in order to defeat them. This is the aim, goal of this Branch, which was extended over a large area and became widely accepted. <<<

2. Jyujyutsu Taii Roku, written by Bo Terasaki (highest Disciple of the Ganso)

3. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jyujyutsu Gokui Kyoju Zukai (Secret teachings and pictorial analysis) written by Iso Mataemon Masanobu (4th Generation Headmaster) and Chiharu Yoshida (3rd Generation Headmaster's highest disciple, 2nd edition printing)

In short, Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu is authenticated today by the authenticity of its original beginning, which is well documented, and by the direct result of Mr. Toshihiro Kubota's teaching of Mr. Lester, and his receipt of the subsequent transmission of the knowledge for completion.

Mr. Lester teaches (http://www.goshinryu.org) in the United States.

All who are interested in taking a class in order to be introduced to the style may do so through the continuing education department Camden County College (http://www.goshinryu.net).

fifthchamber
16th January 2007, 21:27
I think you're going to have some direct questions to answer for this one, so please don't leave just yet..
Does Kubota san know that he gave Menkyo to Mr. Lester?I only ask because on all official documents, the only other areas to train are listed as Australia and England...And neither shibu has full transmission just yet as far as I am aware...Strange that there is no mention of Mr. Lester if he got as far as Menkyo...
I'm not saying I doubt you..But some of the facts here are a long way from adding up..

swblock
16th January 2007, 22:33
As Al Pacino says in the movie The Godfather III, "Just when I thought I was out..."

Most of the back-and-forth discussion has been around the question of whether or not Mr. Lester received a Menkyo Kaiden in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I suspect some have even asked Mr. Kubota directly. The answer is no, Mr. Lester did not. So, the next question is, well if Mr. Lester doesn't have a Menkyo Kaiden in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, does he at least have a Menkyo? The answer is no, he does not. So, all of the official records that you are referring, which identify two students in Australia and England, are correct to omit Mr. Lester's name. Thus, nothing is strange, as you say.

However, the questions above are not the 'right' questions. Rather, the question that should be asked is, what did Mr. Kubota give Mr. Lester a Menkyo Kaiden in. The answer is the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. To this fact, all documentation does exist.

Many have argued that no such 'thing' [a distinct system called Goshinjyutsu within the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu style] exists. Many have argued quite strongly that Goshinjyutsu just means that you are using the skills of the style for 'self-defense'. But it does exist. I've provided the documentation sources in my earlier post that speak to its existence, and its origination directly from the founder. The Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is Koryu. In 1983, Mr. Kubota made Goshinjyutsu, in the context of a distinct system within the style) public for the first time in a publication (magazine). This also coincides with Mr. Lester's experience in Japan with Mr. Kubota and his demonstration of the the Founder's Goshinjyutsu skills at the shrine.

The next reasonable question should be, if Mr. Lester only has the skills from the distinct system of Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, how can he call what he teaches Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu as a new stream by the hand of Mr. Kubota? And indeed, if all Mr. Lester had received from Mr. Kubota were mere skills, there would not be any Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu. But, there is. Thus the transmission of knowledge to Mr. Lester was completed, even beyond "When All Told."

I could interject some of my own ideas, opinions, and speculation as to why Mr. Kubota doesn't speak about the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu more openly. But, that would be very arrogant of me. I'd like to think I've matured (at least in some small measure) in the past 20 years.

So, to that end, I need to close here and remember that I am merely "A Student Along the Way."

Thank you.

ps: Now I have a question for you: How do you get those Japanese characters to show up like you, and others do??

DDATFUS
17th January 2007, 00:25
Many have argued that no such 'thing' [a distinct system called Goshinjyutsu within the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu style] exists. Many have argued quite strongly that Goshinjyutsu just means that you are using the skills of the style for 'self-defense'.

Unless I'm mis-reading this thread, some of those "many" that you are arguing with are practicing members of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, in direct communication with the headmaster.

fifthchamber
17th January 2007, 00:52
There are so many issues with this that it baffles me...
Your question is an easy one to answer however, since I am using a Japanese computer I switch the conversion over to kanji and type..
As to the rest, it would still be odd that no mention other that Mr. Lesters own has ever been made of this school and that even now it is not known by anyone else other than Mr. Lester, if Kuboto Sensei knows it he does not teach it and to claim full license in something that no one knows is stretching somewhat..Good luck with all that..
As pointed out elsewhere however, I don't train in TSR, I train in something else, I can just read Japanese and know enough to see that what is being claimed is dubious at best...I'm on speaking terms with several members (current..Not prior members) of the school and I'm only waiting for them to address your claims..
I'm certainly not "pulling you back in"...You made these claims and it is up to you to back them up well enough to stop the drag back...This would mean some Japanese, and independant verification of them...Good luck with that..
Regards.

Steve Delaney
17th January 2007, 01:22
I shan't repeat myself, I talked to Kubota sensei about this topic a number of years ago when I was still living in Japan and studying under him directly. There was a negative response, end of.

DDATFUS
17th January 2007, 02:51
So, we have a guy who claims that he received a menkyo kaiden in a sub-discipline of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. We have the headmaster of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, who says that this sub-discipline does not exist.

Mr. Block, I have yet to fully read the sources that you site, but just from the quotes you have posted, I see nothing that definitely states that goshinjutsu was a separate sub-discipline of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu-- just that the element of goshinjutsu was developed/added to to the curriculum. From my skim of the quote, it sounded like goshinjutsu could be as much a mindset as anything else. Maybe if I get a chance to more thoroughly read your sources (which I won't be able to do anytime soon), I'll change my mind, but so far, you haven't presented me with enough evidence to make me doubt the word of a current member, in good standing, of the style who has spoken directly to the headmaster.

Finally, isn't it a bit odd for someone to be issued a menkyo kaiden (license of full transmission) in what would essentially be a small section of an overall art? Wouldn't one rather be given a license for that section of the curriculum?

fifthchamber
17th January 2007, 03:39
Yeah..Normally you'd maybe get licence in that section of the school..But what they seem to be claiming is that the "goshinjutsu Tenjin Shinyo-ryu" is a seperate line and one that has been taught, by Kubota Sensei to one person...That one person claims to have menkyo in this seperate school and although Kubota Sensei has said nothing to validate this he believes that he's legit..
I'm with Steve, this is far worse than fishy and not worth the time we have spent replying to it..
All done.

swblock
17th January 2007, 05:33
I'm on speaking terms with several members (current..Not prior members) of the school and I'm only waiting for them to address your claims..

Most excellent idea!!! But, somehow I don't know if we can assume that Mr. Kubota is going to be as 'open' and 'revealing' as we all would like for him to be.

I recall discussions with a book author / contributor who spent years in Japan. He took a great deal of pride in his 'relationship' with Mr. Kubota. Sadly, however, he became disillusioned when he discovered that (in his words) "no matter how hard you try, or how many years you train there is no guarantee that you'll be inside."

It would certainly be a great deal easier for Mr. Lester, and his disciples, if Mr. Kubota got up on a soapbox and explained everything to us westerners. I honestly wish he would. But, that is not his way. Rather, he chose a very public, very Japanese venue to make his announcement, and took an unfathomable risk to his personal stature and respect to do so.

Sometimes, I think we find ourselves trying to explain something that can't be explained. Unfortunately, when we can't come up with rational answers, our natural human tendency is to discount. It's the age old debate; chicken vs. the egg, creation vs. evolution, real vs. fake. Which is it? And, even if the answer is known with 100% certainty, how would it be proved?

The fact is that it can't. All that can be done is to lay down the information and allow people to make their own determinations. A person convinced against their will is of the same opinion, still. I guess that is what needs to be done here. There is nothing I can do or say to prove Mr. Lester's rightful place as a Shihan and "Master Teacher" of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu. But, all of the evidence is there.

I believe God created the heaven and earth and all that there is within it in six days and rested on the seventh day and therefore hallowed the seventh day as the Sabbath. I also believe that it was God Himself that provided the truth to Akiyama Shirobi. And with the truth, and God's inspiration, Mr. Shirobi created Yoshin Ryu.

I believe it was God that provided the inspiration to Iso Mataemon to go to the Shrine. While there, he prayed and trained for 200 days and asked God for a favor to be shown the same inspiration and truth given to Mr. Shirobi hundreds of years earlier. And, with that inspiration, Tenjin Shinyo Ryu was conformed.

Still further, I believe it was God that led Iso Mataemon into the epic battle of life and death, against insurmountable odds, for the sake of a village which led to the additional study of atemi and the creation of the original skills of Goshinjyutsu.

I believe all of these things. And, for all of these things I've spoken of, I have read of them first in books passed down from generation to generation. I believe. Some would say, that is merely faith; belief in things unseen. But, therein lies the rub regarding Mr. Lester. I've seen the artifacts. And, I've experienced his existence. He's not perfect. Nor do I believe that Mr. Kubota is perfect. But, there is something about each one of them that no one of us can fully understand. There is a mystery there. It is the essence that drives us to continue our training...to find out what it is.

Still, just as I can't speak to rationale of why Moses wasn't allowed into the 'Promised Land', I can't speak to the rationale of no open dialog regarding the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, even to and amongst the current students. It's as if it is being preserved, saved, and set aside. Perhaps that is where Mr. Kubota wants it to stay. I can't speak to that.

I don't understand, nor is it my place to question. But, it doesn't shake my belief. As for others, their own belief will be...or it won't.

It's just the way it is.

I'll leave it at that.

Take care, everyone.

johan smits
17th January 2007, 09:04
Sticking my nose there where it doesn't belong (this is a Dutch trait).
If mr. Lester has received anything from Kubota sensei it will be in writing. Well scan it - there are people (not me!) who read Japanese on this board.
They will be abel to prove Mr. Lester's rightful place as you say.

And I quess they are willing to help.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

Steve Delaney
17th January 2007, 09:30
If you do ever get the chance to view the relevant document, look out for this kanji - 名誉. If it is there, a lot of things will be cleared up.

johan smits
17th January 2007, 09:43
Steve,

Okay you got my attention. For people who do not read Kanji (like me!) care to translate?

best,

Johan Smits

Eric Spinelli
17th January 2007, 12:22
名誉 「めいよ」 - adj-na, n - honor; credit; prestige [WWWJDIC Edict]

johan smits
17th January 2007, 12:27
Thanks Eric,

I am looking forward to hearing from the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu goshinjutsu people.

Best,

Johan Smits

jquinn
21st January 2007, 18:30
Visit goshinryu.net

Steve Delaney
21st January 2007, 21:15
The photo on the right was taken at Yasukuni jinja and all of those gentlemen are no longer active in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu.

johan smits
22nd January 2007, 06:01
I visited goshinryu.net.
Frankly I was not impressed.

Johan Smits

pdio
1st February 2007, 18:09
I wanted to thank the participants in this discussion forum thread for their insights, information provided and opinions expressed. It has been an interesting read. I hope that my contribution helps to a small degree, but it is in the larger scheme of things, just my opinion. I am not by any means a Koryu or jyujyutsu ryu lineage scholar.

The debate over the classification of Goshinjyutsu with respect to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jyujyutsu and the existence/nonexistence and or meaning of teaching licenses granted will continue I’m sure. I hope the truth eventually will prove out and be recognized and accepted. I am not as hopeful that the truth can be proven in an Internet forum, perhaps it can only be learned, experienced and realized in the dojo.

Many years ago I had the privilege to train in Goshinjyutsu under Mr. Lester for about 8 years before moving to another state and having to discontinue that training. Hopefully someday I’ll have the opportunity to continue training with Mr. Lester again. For what it’s worth, as a former student of Mr. Lester’s perhaps I can attest to the nature of his instructorship and the veracity of his character. He is an excellent and dedicated teacher with an incredible depth and breadth of knowledge and skill, a man of tremendous integrity and impeccable character. He is a lifelong, enthusiastic, committed, diligent student of Bujyutsu and Budo and we are blessed to have him also be just such a teacher.

During the time I was a student of Mr. Lester’s I gained respect for and trust in him. I know that Mr. Lester trained with and has tremendous respect for Mr. Kubota. Mr. Lester would not say anything about such matters that had not met the approval of his teacher.

I realize that my comments only and merely represent my humble opinion and that it won’t do much to sway those who feel or believe otherwise. I wish all who read this the best of luck and continued success in their training and hope that they enjoy the benefits of training in the way.

Respectfully,

Paul Dioguardo

P.S. To the person who posted in this forum that they were considering training at the CCC school but decided not to after reading the other posts questioning the validity of the school, I hope you reconsider. You will find training in Goshinjyutsu at CCC a positive and rewarding experience.

browah
2nd February 2007, 02:48
Johan

What didn't impress you about the site?

DDATFUS
2nd February 2007, 03:28
perhaps I can attest to the nature of his instructorship and the veracity of his character. He is an excellent and dedicated teacher with an incredible depth and breadth of knowledge and skill, a man of tremendous integrity and impeccable character. He is a lifelong, enthusiastic, committed, diligent student of Bujyutsu and Budo and we are blessed to have him also be just such a teacher.

So, a few months ago someone ran across a website of a guy claiming to be an authorized teacher of a certain koryu bujutsu. We had a laugh at his claim, and soon enough a former student of his showed up to personally attest to the instructor's character, integrity, etc.

An authorized representative of the koryu in question was contacted. He had never heard of the guy. He contacted the soke of the school. The soke had never heard of the guy. The school is small enough that it would be completely impossible for anyone to have trained in the school without the soke knowing (as in, I think the whole school pretty much fits into one room). I got the distinct impression that the soke was rather unhappy to learn about this individual's false claims. When he confirmed this news, the gentleman who had shown up to defend his former instructor's claims regretfully retracted his position-- I gather it was a great disappointment for him to find out that the man he had respected had been caught out in a lie.

The point being, while we respect your opinion regarding Mr. Lester, it is hard for us to put too much stock in it-- we've often seen good people taken in, and there are people out there who will sincerely defend the integrity of even frauds like Ashida Kim.



During the time I was a student of Mr. Lester’s I gained respect for and trust in him. I know that Mr. Lester trained with and has tremendous respect for Mr. Kubota. Mr. Lester would not say anything about such matters that had not met the approval of his teacher.

Okay, once again, someone correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that we are hearing direct from Kubota that he denies ever giving Lester any sort of Goshinjutsu license. If that is correct, then either Kubota or Lester is lying. I am having a hard time seeing why a Japanese koryu instructor would lie about giving a license, particularly if his student would not (as you implied) ever do anything against the wishes of the teacher. However, I sadly can imagine several motives for a man to fabricate a story about receiving a license from a Japanese koryu teacher.

Bottom line: unless I've misread something, you have to either believe that Kubota is lying or that Lester is lying. How do Mr. Lester's students respond?

johan smits
2nd February 2007, 10:46
I was not so much not impressed with the site as with what is stated.

What didn't impress me is that mr. Lester is referred to as a master and he is named a shihan.
This is usually done to impress the general public. People who don't know anything about the arts might be impressed but those who do know see throug it and are not.

best,

Johan Smits

swblock
2nd February 2007, 12:46
An authorized representative of the koryu in question was contacted.
Who exactly is the 'authorized representative' you are referring to?




He contacted the soke of the school. The soke had never heard of the guy.
I think you misread the post.




When he confirmed this news, the gentleman who had shown up to defend his former instructor's claims regretfully retracted his position-- I gather it was a great disappointment for him to find out that the man he had respected had been caught out in a lie.
Who are you referring to here? If it is me, once again, I think you have misread the post.




The point being, while we respect your opinion regarding Mr. Lester, it is hard for us to put too much stock in it -- we've often seen good people taken in, and there are people out there who will sincerely defend the integrity of even frauds like Ashida Kim.
Okay, here is an open call to anyone that is so interested: Contact Mr. Kubota and ask him specifically, "is Mr. Lester a Shihan of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu?" It's that simple.

Westerners like to make their own deductions and rationalizations. Unfortunately, too often they come to conclusions based upon their current comfort zone and/or understanding. Westerners are notorious for presumptious conclusions that are based entirely on their limited understanding, or in this case, inclusion to the truth.

Let's make it plain. The only person that can discredit the claims about Mr. Lester would be Mr. Kubota. Why? Because no other westerner was allowed to train with Mr. Lester, or was given what Mr. Lester has. In fact, most westerners, didn't even know the existence of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, even though Mr. Kubota published an article in a Japanese magazine in 1982 (do you want the page number for that reference, too?). Why? Because Mr. Kubota didn't want to give it to them.

Westerners like proof, regardless of whether they are entitled to it or not. They assume that silence is evidence of the lack thereof. In Japan however, silence is the lack of acknowledgement of your right to even ask the question in the first place.

If anyone reading this post is so inclined to believe that they have the right and privilege to question Mr. Kubota about what he does or has done with Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, and what he gives, or doesnt' give, to individuals training in the Ryu, go ask him a real basic, simple, direct question: "Is Mr. Lester a Shihan of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu."

Don't tell him I sent you though. I know my place. And, I would never want to disrespect him like that.




Bottom line: unless I've misread something, you have to either believe that Kubota is lying or that Lester is lying. How do Mr. Lester's students respond?
No body is lying. People just need to ask the right question(s).


And finally, with regard to an earlier post about a conversation with Mr. Kubota a few years ago, which was based on showing him a PDF file that was published on the old website, and in which it was stated that Mr. Kubota was 'not pleased', like I say in my open letter to all at http://www.goshinryu.org/message.htm, I fully understand why he would not have been pleased. That response however has nothing to do with Mr. Lester and his claims.

Show Mr. Kubota the new site: http://www.goshinryu.org (for the style), and http://www.goshinryu.net (for the introductory dojo).

Again, no one here on this board, or even the public worldwide can discredit Mr. Lester. No one can, except for Mr. Kubota. I know from watching the traffic on the site through Google Analytics that in the past 10 days alone, the site has been viewed in Japan, Australia, England, France, Canada, Turkey, Brazil, and yes, the United States. Surely, I'd bet dollars to donuts that Mr. Kubota is fully aware of this silly debate. And yet, all we hear from him is thunderous silence. How you interpret that silence is up to you.

Western arrogance is the impediment to all that is craved from the Koryu.

Take care.

swblock
2nd February 2007, 13:01
People who don't know anything about the arts might be impressed but those who do know see throug it and are not.

OUTSTANDING!!! You are absolutely correct. People who don't know anything might be impressed by those claiming to be an authority. Or, in other words, the sluggard craves truth and will cling to the shallow words of any fool. But the cravings of the wise and diligent are fully satisfied.

Steve Delaney
2nd February 2007, 14:17
And finally, with regard to an earlier post about a conversation with Mr. Kubota a few years ago, which was based on showing him a PDF file that was published on the old website, and in which it was stated that Mr. Kubota was 'not pleased', like I say in my open letter to all at http://www.goshinryu.org/message.htm, I fully understand why he would not have been pleased. That response however has nothing to do with Mr. Lester and his claims.

It has everything to do with Mr. Lester to be honest. It's his system, his face on there, with Kubota sensei in that picture. How can you say it has nothing to do with Mr. Lester? Sorry, I fail to see that leap in logic.

DDATFUS
2nd February 2007, 15:02
Who are you referring to here? If it is me, once again, I think you have misread the post.


No, you've misread my post. I apologize if I was being unclear. I was referring to another incident, involving another instructor and another koryu, using it as one example of the many times we have had someone show up to give a glowing endorsement of someone's character only to have it later confirmed, beyond a doubt that the instructor in question was a fraud. Many sincere, dedicated people have found themselves defending the integrity of a man who has none, so we can't set much stock by one person's testimonial.




Okay, here is an open call to anyone that is so interested: Contact Mr. Kubota and ask him specifically, "is Mr. Lester a Shihan of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu?" It's that simple.

Westerners like to make their own deductions and rationalizations. Unfortunately, too often they come to conclusions based upon their current comfort zone and/or understanding. Westerners are notorious for presumptious conclusions that are based entirely on their limited understanding, or in this case, inclusion to the truth.

Let's make it plain. The only person that can discredit the claims about Mr. Lester would be Mr. Kubota.


As I understand it, we have the word of current members of the school, who have spoken to Mr. Kubota, that Mr. Lester is presenting inaccurate information and that Kubota is not happy about it.

So, here's a question for you. Let's say that I do write Mr. Kubota. Let's say that he writes me in return, clearly saying that Lester is not an authorized shihan, and that Lester did not receive any type of Goshinjutsu license. Let's say that I then come here and post that information. Would you accept it? Would you believe me? You don't believe the testimony of current members of the ryu in question-- would I be lying? Or would I be "confused" and "have failed to ask the right questions?" Would you "dare" contact Kubota yourself to confirm what I said?



Surely, I'd bet dollars to donuts that Mr. Kubota is fully aware of this silly debate. And yet, all we hear from him is thunderous silence. How you interpret that silence is up to you.


I interpret it as "mokusatsu"-- the issue is beneath his comment. The westerners who are members of the school and thus spokesmen have made their statements, and as far as he is concerned that is the end of the matter. Surely you've heard the Japanese proverb that a student finds the teacher that he deserves?



Western arrogance is the impediment to all that is craved from the Koryu.


Agreed.

swblock
2nd February 2007, 18:04
So, here's a question for you. Let's say that I do write Mr. Kubota. Let's say that he writes me in return, clearly saying that Lester is not an authorized shihan, and that Lester did not receive any type of Goshinjutsu license. Let's say that I then come here and post that information. Would you accept it? Would you believe me?

Absolutely. Go for it. Once you get a letter back from him, please send a copy to Camden County College, Continuing Education Department; Attn: Mr. Calvin Lester, P.O. Box 200, College Drive, Blackwood, NJ 08012-0200. Also, send an email to info@goshinryu.org to alert me/us of the forthcoming letter.

Whether it is you, or someone else reading this post, whosoever wants to extend themselves to take up this quest, by all means, let's do it.

swblock
2nd February 2007, 18:11
Oh!!! I forgot to ask...if the letter comes back and says that Mr. Lester is Shihan, would you then become a defender / evangelist of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu?

LOL...okay, maybe not an evangelist. But, would you then tell everyone that you come in contact with that are curious about Mr. Lester, including those on this board, that he is indeed who he says he is?

DDATFUS
2nd February 2007, 20:24
If I were to contact him-- and that's a big if, at the moment, since I am extremely busy right now and taking the time to compose a proper letter and have it correctly translated would take some time-- yes, I would share the results, whatever they were. I have nothing against Mr. Lester. I am completely neutral here, so if I discover that Mr. Lester is telling the truth, I have just as much reason to report that as I would to report the opposite.

Though given that members of ryu, students of Kubota, have already had their say, I don't know what I would have to add. Despite your comments about western arrogance being the bane of the koryu, I can't imagine what motive these people would have to lie-- as far as I'm concerned, we've already had our answer from Kubota, by way of his representatives.

swblock
3rd February 2007, 02:36
Though given that members of ryu, students of Kubota, have already had their say, I don't know what I would have to add. Despite your comments about western arrogance being the bane of the koryu, I can't imagine what motive these people would have to lie-- as far as I'm concerned, we've already had our answer from Kubota, by way of his representatives.

I don't believe they are lying. That would represent malice. I don't believe that to be true. Rather, I just don't believe the current students are representatives in this matter. Remember, although there is a great deal of written material (including some written by Mr. Kubota himself) that speaks to the origin and scope of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, it appears that Mr. Kubota has not spoken to any of these students about its existence...ever. (I don't know why, nor do I want to speculate)

Also, I believe they were asking the question, "Is Mr. Lester a Menkyo Kaiden?" The answer to that question is, no. Most simply put, Mr. Lester has a Shihan license. I misrepresented that license in the past as Menkyo Kaiden 'cause quite frankly, at the time, I didn't know the difference. And, I suspect, none of his current students no the difference either. Most people think of the Menkyo Kaiden as being the final passage. That would be incorrect, at least as far as TSR is concerned.

Remember, Mr. Sakamoto Fusataro promoted two students to Menkyo Kaiden. Only one student, Mr. Kubota, was promoted to Shihan. The other student, as a Menkyo Kaiden, had everything he needed to begin his own school, completely distinct from TSR. Mr. Kubota, however, was granted the responsibility to continue TSR for the next generations.

So, what am I saying?

If Mr. Kubota was asked, does Mr. Lester have a Menkyo Kaiden in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, the answer would be, no.

If Mr. Kubota was asked, does Mr. Lester have a Menkyo Kaiden in the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, the answer would be, no.

If Mr. Kubota was asked, is Mr. Lester a Shihan of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, the answer would be, yes.

It is only because of Mr. Lester's status as a Shihan that he is able to create a new system (stream) based fully on the development and mastery principles of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu called, Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu. More plainly stated, if Mr. Lester only had a Menkyo Kaiden in the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, there would be EXTREME dishonor to Mr. Kubota to call his system Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu.

I look forward to your letter.

Take care.

Steve Delaney
3rd February 2007, 11:59
There it is then.

1. It's not Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu

2. It's based upon Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu.

3. With that reason in mind, it's based on principles of koryu, but it isn't koryu.

Also depending on the ryuha, there can be shihan and shihanke. One means master and the other means house master. In Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, when you are shihanke, you are the house headmaster and can then as rightful head, make any alterations you see fit.

swblock
3rd February 2007, 13:29
Yup!

However, the issue about whether or not it is Koryu...I understand your position. And honestly, I'm not sure. The original Goshinjyutsu, which is an integral part of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu (http://goshinryu.org), is Koryu. But, each Headmaster, including Mr. Kubota, through the years have created additional waza and incorporated it into this body of knowledge.

Mr. Lester has also incorporated additional skills. Thus, the body of knowledge we study in Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu are inclusive of the Koryu, and all of the past Master's updated waza. I don't believe the updated waza can be considered Koryu (to the best of my knowledge). But, the underlying foundation of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu, which are the principles and development theory handed down from Iso Mateamon through Mr. Kubota, and subsequently to Mr. Lester, is uniquely Koryu.

So, to the question of whether or not Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu is Koryu or not, I don't know. I "think" what is Koryu is more about the underlying principles and development theory that derives the style, as opposed to the origin of the actual waza. But, admittedly so, that is based on my interpretation and understanding at this time.

So, let's leave it at that.

Thanks, everyone.

Take care.

Steve Delaney
3rd February 2007, 16:06
Yup!

However, the issue about whether or not it is Koryu...I understand your position. And honestly, I'm not sure. The original Goshinjyutsu, which is an integral part of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu (http://goshinryu.org), is Koryu. But, each Headmaster, including Mr. Kubota, through the years have created additional waza and incorporated it into this body of knowledge.

For you to say this, you have to have been in Tokyo training recently. I haven't seen you there. I'll be in Tokyo on March for about a month and a half - I'll make sure to ask.

Kubota sensei (When I was living in Japan at least) would every now and then on the Sunday classes when in conversation show oyo-waza (Techniques using applied principle). But these are open to individual interpretation. They aren't koryu, they are shown to students to illustrate how the principles of kata can be used in live situations.

The Tenyokai in Tokyo teach Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu and Kodokan judo. However, these disciplines are taught seperately.



Mr. Lester has also incorporated additional skills. Thus, the body of knowledge we study in Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu are inclusive of the Koryu, and all of the past Master's updated waza. I don't believe the updated waza can be considered Koryu (to the best of my knowledge). But, the underlying foundation of Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu, which are the principles and development theory handed down from Iso Mateamon through Mr. Kubota, and subsequently to Mr. Lester, is uniquely Koryu.

But no tradition is being maintained. For it to be koryu, the tradition has to be maintained not only via scientific physical principle, but also via kata. The original kata are what make the school koryu.

swblock
3rd February 2007, 16:21
For it to be koryu, the tradition has to be maintained not only via scientific physical principle, but also via kata. The original kata are what make the school koryu.

I hear ya. I honestly don't know. We maintain the original kata (Tehodoki, Shodan, and Nagesute), plus we do the updated. As for me being in Japan, not yet, except through the words and teachings of Mr. Lester.

I'm coming, though no date is set...Maybe late July / August time frame.

Steve Delaney
4th February 2007, 20:01
I hear ya. I honestly don't know. We maintain the original kata (Tehodoki, Shodan, and Nagesute), plus we do the updated. As for me being in Japan, not yet, except through the words and teachings of Mr. Lester.

I'm coming, though no date is set...Maybe late July / August time frame.

Hang on a minute, how can you learn nagesute, without learning the intricacies taught in Chudan? You mentioned tehodokil, shodan and nagesute. Am I right in assuming you don't do the chudan skill set?

Why?

swblock
4th February 2007, 21:26
Hang on a minute, how can you learn nagesute, without learning the intricacies taught in Chudan? You mentioned tehodokil, shodan and nagesute. Am I right in assuming you don't do the chudan skill set?

Why?

I'm sure there is an answer, but I don't have it to share. The first time I experienced Shomoku from the receiving end (Mr. Lester as Tori), my eyes rattled like a Sponge Bob cartoon. In the split seconds before my break fall connected with the mat, I could tell we had embarked on something unlike anything else we had done. I truly felt, "thrown away", ya know?!?! Ofcourse, that was nearly 8 years ago now. That was only the tip of the iceberg, as they say.

Be well...send us a post card from Japan to the address I provided earlier.

Take care.

Steve Delaney
5th February 2007, 02:54
I'm sure there is an answer, but I don't have it to share. The first time I experienced Shomoku from the receiving end (Mr. Lester as Tori), my eyes rattled like a Sponge Bob cartoon. In the split seconds before my break fall connected with the mat, I could tell we had embarked on something unlike anything else we had done. I truly felt, "thrown away", ya know?!?! Ofcourse, that was nearly 8 years ago now. That was only the tip of the iceberg, as they say.

Be well...send us a post card from Japan to the address I provided earlier.

Take care.


That's the thing - you are supposed to learn Shodan techniques, graduate to chudan techniques since the standard bar is raised considerably and certain niceties are removed from the kata. Then and only then should you be eligble to train in Nagesute since you should have internalized a lot about taking a fall and arai geiko (Hard training).

The eventual raise of technical standards is to ensure internalization of the main principles in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and to stop students from getting crippled in class.

jquinn
12th March 2007, 23:10
Has anything come out of all of this?

Louvere
12th March 2007, 23:50
Hi there,

Does anyone know of any Tenshin Shin'yo ryu jujutsu schools in the UK?
I doubt there are. Do you know of any good websites which can give me lots of information on this style in particular?



thanks everyone



Matt Banks

Hi Matt,

Why don't you contact George Marton in Australia. He heads Tenjin Shinyo Ryu down under.

Regards,

Simon

Simon Louis

Steve Delaney
13th March 2007, 02:01
Contact Mr. Lee Masters, (username; Ree) he teaches Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu with his father, Mr. Paul Masters in Southend, Essex.

Hope this helps

jquinn
23rd August 2007, 01:15
"With the modern self-defense schools it is the other way around. Virtually none has any direct link whatsoever with any koryū school. There are some exceptions, like Calvin Lester in Camden, NJ, who calls his own school Tenjin goshin-ryū. Well, he did actually study some Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū in Japan before he started to make all sorts of false claims (you know, 'shihan' here 'shihan' there ...) and was finally kicked out of the school by Kubota-shihan. Nevertheless, the guy could without lying say that his school or art has or had some ties or influences from TSYR. Nevertheless, he still will not be recognized as 'legitimate'. Why is that then ? Since he never proceeded to the level in TSYR that he obtained Teacher's certification and even less, the highest rank of menkyō kaiden, which would be required before being able to seek such a recognition. Many of the famous jūdōka of the past did have this certification though (Nagaoka, Yamashita, Kanemitsu, Sakamoto), though they never created their own arts."

swblock
26th August 2007, 10:00
One who is truly interested in the arts will evolve to a place where they come to realize that the source of truth is not found in these forums, nor is it a place where truth can be shared.

Joseph Svinth
26th August 2007, 15:42
Then why are you here?

Flatulence, perhaps?

fifthchamber
27th August 2007, 02:39
And did you ever manage to get to the Dojo in Tokyo? You mentioned a possible visit for July/August time right?
Did you meet Kubota Sensei?And what did you think?

DDATFUS
27th August 2007, 05:41
One who is truly interested in the arts will evolve to a place where they come to realize that the source of truth is not found in these forums, nor is it a place where truth can be shared.

Depends entirely on what sort of truth you mean. If you want to learn the truth about aiki, then a forum is a bad place to look. If you want to learn the truth about the history of aikido, how it relates to Daito Ryu, and what arts influenced the development of both, then a forum like this isn't a bad place to start.

And if you want to learn whether an instructor is the real deal or a fraud who has lied about his past, this forum is one of the best places to start digging for the truth.

Steve Delaney
27th August 2007, 07:10
One who is truly interested in the arts will evolve to a place where they come to realize that the source of truth is not found in these forums, nor is it a place where truth can be shared.

So you've just indirectly called me and several others on this forum a liar. Bravo.

If you want to be an ostrich with your head in the sand, please be my guest. Noone will stop you. I was told information first hand, just like others were in the ryuha. Your loyalty is commendable, but do please try to learn the truth of the matter, rather than skew it, when it doesn't suit to your liking.

There are a lot of people here who have "done time" in Japan and have trained in various koryu ryuha and gendai budo. This forum, when said members are present, is a very good source of background information.

swblock
28th August 2007, 15:57
I apologize to all who were offended by my last post. It was not my intention to insult anyone or call anyone a "liar."

As is said, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

It is not my place to try to convince anyone about Mr. Lester or his continued relationship with Mr. Kubota. Although, given a very recent communication between the two (that I read personally), I think it is a mistake to characterize their relationship as anything different than what I've tried to convey here in the past.

But again, it's not my place to try to convince anyone. Nor would it be possible to do so.

Here's the rub: You (all of you) could be absolutely correct and I could be absolutely wrong about Mr. Lester. On the other hand, the converse is true as well. I could be absolutely right, and you (all of you) could be absolutely wrong. Still, neither of us is privileged to know the full truth because we haven't earned that right. That statement includes current students and those that have "spent time" training in Japan. It's not an indictment upon your understanding. Rather, it is an editorial regarding the level of insight a headmaster (Mr. Kubota) allows any of his students to have.

My point is this: Until one (a student) is chosen to know all the truth, and granted the keys to unlock the pearls of wisdom, one will never know what the truth really is. Or in other words, you don't know what you don't know, until you know.

Everything else, is just an assumption.

Every one has a right to believe what they believe. But, beliefs based on assumptions should not be taken as fact. In the end, that is all I was trying to say in my earlier post.

Again, if I have wounded anyone, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention.

Is anyone familiar with the story of Yagyu Shingan Ryu and the "Inside" versus the "Outside" knowledge? Therein lies the key to what ( I ) call the Headmaster mindset. A Headmaster allows misinformation, or incomplete information (Outside) to be widely disseminated, yet keeps the truth (Inside) very closely held. It's a fascinating insight to their way. I remember when having a conversation with a notable author that published about TSR, he said to me that no matter how long you train or spend time in Japan, you will always be an "outsider." It would be a glorious day for Mr. Kubota to come out and publicly announce to world that he created TSGR and he entrusted Mr. Lester with its proliferation. That will NEVER happen.

So, the only thing we can hope for is what Mr. Kubota has already done; write and publish and thus identify the Goshinjyutsu of TSR as an original system within the overall style of TSR that was developed by the Founder, Iso Mataemon. Still, Mr. Kubota didn't write and publish anything new. These facts are published in many preceding publications. ( I ) believe Mr. Kubota made the effort to write about it again because he is the first Headmaster to delineate the system and "pass" it on, separate from TSR.

Mr. Lester didn't create anything. He was given the Goshinjyutsu and the components of TSR to make Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu a complete style, inclusive of all of the Koryu principles and methods.

Take care, one and all.

S.

Steve Delaney
29th August 2007, 06:20
But again, it's not my place to try to convince anyone. Nor would it be possible to do so.

My point is this: Until one (a student) is chosen to know all the truth, and granted the keys to unlock the pearls of wisdom, one will never know what the truth really is. Or in other words, you don't know what you don't know, until you know.

Everything else, is just an assumption.

It's not a secret. It's not even a pearl of wisdom. It's something that is known to those who go to the dojo regularly.


Every one has a right to believe what they believe. But, beliefs based on assumptions should not be taken as fact. In the end, that is all I was trying to say in my earlier post.

How about beliefs based upon what was actually said and shown, from the horse's mouth so to speak?


So, the only thing we can hope for is what Mr. Kubota has already done; write and publish and thus identify the Goshinjyutsu of TSR as an original system within the overall style of TSR that was developed by the Founder, Iso Mataemon. Still, Mr. Kubota didn't write and publish anything new. These facts are published in many preceding publications. ( I ) believe Mr. Kubota made the effort to write about it again because he is the first Headmaster to delineate the system and "pass" it on, separate from TSR.

Where are these publications? Kindly please cite your sources. Kubota sensei's publications are mainly in Japanese. In the Tokyo dojo, there is no such entity as TSGR. End of.

What is taught is the koryu - Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. Since TSR has many historical links to Kodokan judo and the fact that Kubota sensei is also a 7th dan in Kodokan judo, Kodokan judo and it's kata are also taught.

Louvere
30th August 2007, 00:43
I apologize to all who were offended by my last post. It was not my intention to insult anyone or call anyone a "liar."

As is said, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

It is not my place to try to convince anyone about Mr. Lester or his continued relationship with Mr. Kubota. Although, given a very recent communication between the two (that I read personally), I think it is a mistake to characterize their relationship as anything different than what I've tried to convey here in the past.

But again, it's not my place to try to convince anyone. Nor would it be possible to do so.

Here's the rub: You (all of you) could be absolutely correct and I could be absolutely wrong about Mr. Lester. On the other hand, the converse is true as well. I could be absolutely right, and you (all of you) could be absolutely wrong. Still, neither of us is privileged to know the full truth because we haven't earned that right. That statement includes current students and those that have "spent time" training in Japan. It's not an indictment upon your understanding. Rather, it is an editorial regarding the level of insight a headmaster (Mr. Kubota) allows any of his students to have.

My point is this: Until one (a student) is chosen to know all the truth, and granted the keys to unlock the pearls of wisdom, one will never know what the truth really is. Or in other words, you don't know what you don't know, until you know.

Everything else, is just an assumption.

Every one has a right to believe what they believe. But, beliefs based on assumptions should not be taken as fact. In the end, that is all I was trying to say in my earlier post.

Again, if I have wounded anyone, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention.

Is anyone familiar with the story of Yagyu Shingan Ryu and the "Inside" versus the "Outside" knowledge? Therein lies the key to what ( I ) call the Headmaster mindset. A Headmaster allows misinformation, or incomplete information (Outside) to be widely disseminated, yet keeps the truth (Inside) very closely held. It's a fascinating insight to their way. I remember when having a conversation with a notable author that published about TSR, he said to me that no matter how long you train or spend time in Japan, you will always be an "outsider." It would be a glorious day for Mr. Kubota to come out and publicly announce to world that he created TSGR and he entrusted Mr. Lester with its proliferation. That will NEVER happen.

So, the only thing we can hope for is what Mr. Kubota has already done; write and publish and thus identify the Goshinjyutsu of TSR as an original system within the overall style of TSR that was developed by the Founder, Iso Mataemon. Still, Mr. Kubota didn't write and publish anything new. These facts are published in many preceding publications. ( I ) believe Mr. Kubota made the effort to write about it again because he is the first Headmaster to delineate the system and "pass" it on, separate from TSR.

Mr. Lester didn't create anything. He was given the Goshinjyutsu and the components of TSR to make Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu a complete style, inclusive of all of the Koryu principles and methods.

Take care, one and all.

S.
Hello Steven,

Yes, I'm familiar with the Yagyu Shingan Ryu "inside V's "outside" knowledge. Is there something I can assist you with?

regards,

Simon Louis

Teppeikai
23rd February 2008, 00:06
I have read with interest a few postings here and there on E-Budo with regards to Seishi Teppei (incorrectly spelled Teppi), his lineage and also his connection to Vernon Bell. At the risk of reigniting a thread that has been dead for nearly two years (if anyone will even read it) I thought I would add my two cents worth to set the record straight.
1) I have been studying jujutsu in Seishi Teppei Sensei's lineage since 1983, first in Cape Town, South Africa (where Teppei's student Johnston started his dojo in 1928) and now run a small dojo here in Vancouver, Canada. My website is www.ju-jitsu.sa.com for those who are interested. For many years I have been doing research into the history of the style of Jujutsu that I practice and can confidently state that I am the most qualified to address historical and technical questions with regards to this lineage.
2) I wish to state unequivocally that Seishi Teppei did NOT teach Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. Neither he nor his students made that claim either in the oral or written history - in fact ,the specific name of the ryu he originated from has not be transmitted. For this reason we do not use a "ryu name" to describe the system of Jujutsu. Furthermore, I have had the priviledge of doing some Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the Kubota Toshihiro lineage, and can state that there is little to no resemblance between the techniques taught in the TSR and Seishi Teppei Sensei's system.
3) A later, 4th generation student, Charles Gaven, attempted to identify the ryu origen and thought it was TSR - he told me in person that he was the one who made this identification. This error is not being perpetuated in my organization. Once again, the origen of this claim was not Teppei or his students.
3) There are claims that Vernon Bell in the UK studied under Seishi Teppei. This is false. Teppei was never in South Africa at all, even if this was so, he was not there in the brief time period (1939) when Bell is claimed to have been there. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Bell ever studied with Teppei's student H. Johnston in SA. This may be so, but all the evidence points to the contrary. Bell's students have additionally made claims that H. Johnston taught Bell in the UK for several years. In fact, H. Johnston was never in the UK. They confused him with an ex-wrestler/ Judoka named Harry Johnson who taught in the Swaffield Road Institute in London. They are two different men.
4) Teppei Sensei's system as taught by me is a pure Japanese art in origen and transmission as derived from him, and has not be combined with other styles. We cannot make claims that we teach a Koryu, as we have not had connection to Japan for 80 years and do not have any direct written or oral transmission of either licences, mokuroku or origional ryu name. However, what we teach is not Gendai Jujutsu either (a modern derivative of mingled arts).

I hope this little addition will clear up any ideas perpetuated by various individuals which bring Seishi Teppei and his lineage into disrepute through attaching false claims.

Steve Delaney
23rd February 2008, 01:49
I have read with interest a few postings here and there on E-Budo with regards to Seishi Teppei (incorrectly spelled Teppi), his lineage and also his connection to Vernon Bell. At the risk of reigniting a thread that has been dead for nearly two years (if anyone will even read it) I thought I would add my two cents worth to set the record straight.
1) I have been studying jujutsu in Seishi Teppei Sensei's lineage since 1983, first in Cape Town, South Africa (where Teppei's student Johnston started his dojo in 1928) and now run a small dojo here in Vancouver, Canada. My website is www.ju-jitsu.sa.com for those who are interested. For many years I have been doing research into the history of the style of Jujutsu that I practice and can confidently state that I am the most qualified to address historical and technical questions with regards to this lineage.
2) I wish to state unequivocally that Seishi Teppei did NOT teach Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. Neither he nor his students made that claim either in the oral or written history - in fact ,the specific name of the ryu he originated from has not be transmitted. For this reason we do not use a "ryu name" to describe the system of Jujutsu. Furthermore, I have had the priviledge of doing some Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the Kubota Toshihiro lineage, and can state that there is little to no resemblance between the techniques taught in the TSR and Seishi Teppei Sensei's system.
3) A later, 4th generation student, Charles Gaven, attempted to identify the ryu origen and thought it was TSR - he told me in person that he was the one who made this identification. This error is not being perpetuated in my organization. Once again, the origen of this claim was not Teppei or his students.
3) There are claims that Vernon Bell in the UK studied under Seishi Teppei. This is false. Teppei was never in South Africa at all, even if this was so, he was not there in the brief time period (1939) when Bell is claimed to have been there. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Bell ever studied with Teppei's student H. Johnston in SA. This may be so, but all the evidence points to the contrary. Bell's students have additionally made claims that H. Johnston taught Bell in the UK for several years. In fact, H. Johnston was never in the UK. They confused him with an ex-wrestler/ Judoka named Harry Johnson who taught in the Swaffield Road Institute in London. They are two different men.
4) Teppei Sensei's system as taught by me is a pure Japanese art in origen and transmission as derived from him, and has not be combined with other styles. We cannot make claims that we teach a Koryu, as we have not had connection to Japan for 80 years and do not have any direct written or oral transmission of either licences, mokuroku or origional ryu name. However, what we teach is not Gendai Jujutsu either (a modern derivative of mingled arts).

I hope this little addition will clear up any ideas perpetuated by various individuals which bring Seishi Teppei and his lineage into disrepute through attaching false claims.

Could you give your name please sir, as per e-budo forum rules.

Thank you for the very informative post by the way.

Ree
23rd February 2008, 10:28
Guy

Many thanks on sharing your reseach on both Teppei Sensei and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.These findings have no reflection on the technical effectiveness of these other teachers or styles,however it does have an affect on their claims of the origin of the techniques,style(be it Tenjin Shinyo Ryu or Tenshin Shinyo Ryu)and their founder ie Iso Mataemon Ryukansai Minamoto no Masatari.I hope this information will be taken in a positive rather than negative way.

Teppeikai
24th February 2008, 04:35
Lee,
Thanks for your little "concilliatory" and explanatory addendum to my post...in my haste to type it out (late at night too) I may have phrased things a little too directly. I agree completely with your comments and sentiment that the "facts" as stated in my post were not intended as a critique of anyone's system or of any one individual although it perhaps came across that way. I also do not believe anyone has been intentionally fielding incorrect information, but where errors do creep in it is in everyone's interests for them to be cleared up.

I came across the short video footage of you and your father performing some of the kata on the internet...enjoyed seeing that. Nice intensity level to it. Give my regards to your father.

Steve,
I am pleased you found the post of interest. My apology for not including my name, although i have browsed through e-budo for years I am a newbie at posting - I had assumed the name was automatically tagged to the post............???
so......here it, is...........
Guy Taylor

George Kohler
24th February 2008, 22:01
I had assumed the name was automatically tagged to the post............???

Guy Taylor

I added it to your signature field in your profile (user CP). You shouldn't have to worry any more.

Teppeikai
25th February 2008, 03:02
thanks George - much appreciated.

swblock
8th April 2008, 14:55
[QUOTE=Steve Delaney;449916] Where are these publications? Kindly please cite your sources. Kubota sensei's publications are mainly in Japanese. In the Tokyo dojo, there is no such entity as TSGR. End of. [QUOTE]


Once again, Mr. Delaney, I'll provide these sources to you and all the readers of this forum, below.

First, you are correct. These sources are written in Japanese. Secondly, you are also correct in that there is no reference to Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu (TSGR) by specific name. But, as I've tried to "make plain" to you and others before, TSGR is the name Mr. Lester has given to the body of knowledge he received from Mr. Kubota, which is referenced in these sources as Goshinjyutsu.

TSGR includes the original Goshinjyutsu of TSR (Shodan Taichia) and the updated skills per each headmaster of the ryu, plus, TSR Tehodoki, Nagesute, and advanced teachings (of the highest nature, i.e. that of the mind and not necessarily of the body - if you need more of an explanation, please consult Mr. Kubota, if you are so inclined), which Mr. Lester received to complete the full body of knowledge that is required to make TSGR a complete style.

I can't make it any more "plain" than that. You once argued why Mr. Kubota would do that. I don't have an answer for you. But I submit to you, and all who are so inclined to follow this thread that not having an answer to the question of 'why' doesn't reduce the truth.

Now, since I posted the entire message below some time ago, right here on this forum, I can only assume that you must not have taken the time to review the materials. Nevertheless, I am more than willing to share them with you again. BUT, again, as you mentioned, these sources are original and written in Japanese. I assume you can read Japanese. I, as a point of fact, can not. I must have them translated.

So, for validation of what I am referencing from a translated version, I encourage you, and whomever else is so inclined, to read the original Japanese publications that I provide references to below and prove my assertions to be incorrect.

If you can do so, I'd be very thankful and will have a renewed sense of urgency regarding my understanding of the facts. If you can not, then I'll leave it to you to address your own past comments on this forum.

Now, lastly, as I am not a 'regular' contributor on this forum, I have a special email address for you, and whomever else is so inclined, to notify me of your findings, or ask any additional questions that you may have. Any email you send to questions@goshinryu.org will come directly to me, and will copy Mr. Lester himself. In fact, I encourage any and everyone that is 'curious' to dialog with me and/or Mr. Lester directly.

Why??

Well, I imagine that after reviewing the referenced materials below, the next argument will be, "that doesn't prove Mr. Lester is all that you claim him to be." So, to that, I suggest you take whatever avenues are available to you to learn more about him. In fact, perhaps you should even register for the class that he offers to the public at large. http://goshinryu.net

I'd be happy to meet and train with you, and anyone else that is curious and willing to learn.

So, without further delay, here is the post that I made earlier with the references to original Japanese publications that speak to the body of knowledge of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo ryu and its origin. It is Koryu.

Steven Block
Menkyo Tassa,
Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu

~ ~ ~

In conclusion to my contribution to this discussion, I'd like to refer all who are interested to three books / publications which speak to the origin of and/or impetus to create Tenjin Shinyo Ryu's Goshinjyutsu and it's development by the founder, thus making it Koryu.

1. Nippon Jyujyutsu, Chapter 5, page 122
Japan Book of Formal Military Ways

Excerpt:

>>> Inlet Door - Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu

The inlet door period began when the disturbances of war caused crisis and emergencies. All organized assemble was suppressed by Armed Forces. Opponents used their bare hands to attack and assault. They dealt with skill, vigorously.

The aim, goal of the new body research, added this System to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu which flowed originally from our Ancestor whose development of crude Foot and Leg movements corrected by truth was the originating source.

The fame, reputation of our Ancestor's skill was throughout the whole country. This influenced five thousand people to receive passage of this approach. The System was transmitted to "Respect and Honor Human Life," even when wounding an opponent in order to defeat them. This is the aim, goal of this Branch, which was extended over a large area and became widely accepted. <<<

2. Jyujyutsu Taii Roku, written by Bo Terasaki (highest Disciple of the Ganso)

3. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jyujyutsu Gokui Kyoju Zukai (Secret teachings and pictorial analysis) written by Iso Mataemon Masanobu (4th Generation Headmaster) and Chiharu Yoshida (3rd Generation Headmaster's highest disciple, 2nd edition printing) - - a.k.a., "The Flag Book"

In short, Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu is authenticated today by the authenticity of its original beginning, which is well documented, and by the direct result of Mr. Toshihiro Kubota's teaching of Mr. Lester, and his receipt of the subsequent transmission of the knowledge for completion.

Mr. Lester teaches in the United States.

Steve Delaney
8th April 2008, 18:42
Mr. Block,

What the hell is a "Menkyo Tassa?"

There's no such rank/licence in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu going by that name.

The current of this thread seems to be like a tennis match at the moment,

Now, rarely do I do this, but I'm going to quote myself from this very thread dated: 07-22-2006


The person in question, Mr. Calvin Lester, was a student of Kubota Toshihiro sensei in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu during the early 1980's.

According to Kubota sensei, when I asked about Mr. Lester, he stayed in Japan for about two years, and learned enough to earn Kirigami Menjo. He did learn a few techniques higher than his grade, but didn't come back to Japan again to train after leaving.

I actually printed out the webpage for Kubota sensei to have a look at a few years back and he was not happy with what he saw.

A negative response.

I was told to not bring him up in conversation again with Kubota Shihan. Mr. Lester recieved shoden kirigami menjo, was taught slightly higher than his rank and subsequently left after something like two years of training and was never heard of again by the Tenyokai.

Whenever a dojo opened or any sort of publication (essay, webpage etc) published, Kubota Shihan is referred to for his permission. It's the way the ryuha works.


Surely, I'd bet dollars to donuts that Mr. Kubota is fully aware of this silly debate. And yet, all we hear from him is thunderous silence. How you interpret that silence is up to you.

If you truly knew the man or at least trained with him in Japan for some measure of time, you really wouldn't be saying things like this online. He has already said what he has needed to say to his students.

swblock
9th April 2008, 05:39
I was told to not bring him up in conversation again with Kubota Shihan.

Indeed!! This conversation has run its course.

As for me, I am guilty of baiting you into this debate, which I willingly did for selfish ambition (a very nasty habit). For that, I apologize to you and the forum. And, to that end, it was not appropriate for me to share all that I have on an open forum like this. Again, I have a nasty habit of "american discourse." In fact, I would imagine you and I are very similar in that regard.

But, I submit to you, as a mere student of Mr. Kubota, you (meaning, any student) are not in any position to question him about anyone, or especially, anything he has done with the style, including past and present students of his.

It is what I call the "headmaster mindset." In short, it says that whatever he does as the headmaster of the style is nobody's business but his own. He is not going to justify your (meaning, any student) questioning him and asking him to validate someone by giving you the full story. Rather, he will suffer you (meaning, any student) with some basic facts. To that end, your basic facts are correct. But, your conclusions are all wrong.

Remember: Inside vs. Outside. Most students of koryu are left on the outside with mere physical skills and physical skill knowledge and the accumulation thereof. Have you ever asked yourself why a Menkyo Kaiden is not enough to be a 'master' of the style? Mr. Kubota's teacher promoted multiple students to Menkyo Kaiden. Have you ever wondered what the difference was between Mr. Kubota and the others? Why would Mr. Kubota be considered the 'master' of the style and not the others? One would have to assume, even without any further evidence, that there must be something else beyond the Menkyo Kaiden that allows one to become 'master' of the style, or of a new style.

Those questions are not asked for you to answer; just for your own consideration.

In closing, allow me to ask a rhetorical question: How does one teach a person that has never been able to see what the color blue, or any other color, looks like? The answer is that it can't be done. There has to be a common level of knowledge, in this case the knowledge of sight, in order to accomplish the teaching.

In short, one can never know what they don't know, until they know; or in the case of bujyutsu, they are taught.

Mr. Delaney, I offer you my best regards with respect to your training with Mr. Kubota. May you achieve all that your hopes and ambitions allow.

As for me, I am a blessed man to have the same opportunity with Mr. Lester.

Take care.

Steven Block
Menkyo Tassa*
Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu


* You are correct. The Menkyo Tassa license does not exist in Tenjin Shinyo ryu.

Josh Reyer
9th April 2008, 06:08
Steven Block
Menkyo Tassa*
Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu


* You are correct. The Menkyo Tassa license does not exist in Tenjin Shinyo ryu.

I got no dog in this fight, but out of linguistical interest, what is "tassa" supposed to mean? It is not a Japanese word.

swblock
9th April 2008, 07:03
Ooops! I forgot the 'h'...twice. LOL

Menkyo Tassha.

Take care one and all. I'm out...again.

kenkyusha
9th April 2008, 16:25
But, I submit to you, as a mere student of Mr. Kubota, you (meaning, any student) are not in any position to question him about anyone, or especially, anything he has done with the style, including past and present students of his.

It is what I call the "headmaster mindset." In short, it says that whatever he does as the headmaster of the style is nobody's business but his own. He is not going to justify your (meaning, any student) questioning him and asking him to validate someone by giving you the full story. Rather, he will suffer you (meaning, any student) with some basic facts. To that end, your basic facts are correct. But, your conclusions are all wrong.

Wow, the misunderstanding of traditional Japanese culture and just plain hubris that this bit of self-justifying rhetoric implies is staggering! To, in essence, assert that folks who see a teacher, week in, week out, might not be privy to his decisions regarding a former student (who now makes outrageous and unsupportable claims)... wow. William of Okham, where are you?

Citing omote/ura by way of explanation of this... that was a joke, right?

Be well,
Jigme

Ron Tisdale
9th April 2008, 18:34
Or would that be tatamae / honne?

B,
R

Josh Reyer
9th April 2008, 20:18
Or would that be tatamae / honne?

B,
R

A key thing to understand about tatemae and honne is that in Japanese culture one is expected to pick up on tatemae, and then follow the honne, while in America one tends to be obligated by tatemae even when one realizes it's just tatemae.

This is the difference:

Headmaster (honne): That bastard!
What everyone hears: That bastard!

Headmaster (tatemae): Let us speak of this no longer.
What everyone hears: That bastard!

No need to go overboard, though. Japanese people can and do give straight answers to straight questions. Even headmasters.

Steve Delaney
10th April 2008, 05:55
A key thing to understand about tatemae and honne is that in Japanese culture one is expected to pick up on tatemae, and then follow the honne, while in America one tends to be obligated by tatemae even when one realizes it's just tatemae.

This is the difference:

Headmaster (honne): That bastard!
What everyone hears: That bastard!

Headmaster (tatemae): Let us speak of this no longer.
What everyone hears: That bastard!

No need to go overboard, though. Japanese people can and do give straight answers to straight questions. Even headmasters.

Spot on Josh.

DDATFUS
10th April 2008, 14:47
Have you ever asked yourself why a Menkyo Kaiden is not enough to be a 'master' of the style? Mr. Kubota's teacher promoted multiple students to Menkyo Kaiden. Have you ever wondered what the difference was between Mr. Kubota and the others? Why would Mr. Kubota be considered the 'master' of the style and not the others? One would have to assume, even without any further evidence, that there must be something else beyond the Menkyo Kaiden that allows one to become 'master' of the style, or of a new style.

Nope, you wouldn't have to assume that at all. I don't know anything about Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, but just based on what I know of other styles there are a few options. It could be that the person who becomes the next headmaster was simply the most senior of the living menkyo kaiden. Or maybe he was the only volunteer; I feel like that I happened in one school that I read about. Who knows? My point is, I can think of other explanations besides some special super-secret knowledge that none of the others ever got... though that's a possibility as well.


Just speaking on this thread in general, what we seem to have is
1) a guy who knows Kubota Sensei personally, who interacts with him on a regular basis, and who has told us that Kubota Sensei is not happy about what certain people are doing.

2) a guy who has never met Kubota Sensei, but is willing to speculate endlessly about what Kubota Sensei might actually be thinking, and to tell people who know Kubota Sensei that they are wrong about him.

Is that about right? Or am I missing something?

Ron Tisdale
10th April 2008, 17:42
No, David, you are not missing anything ;)

Josh, thanks! Makes better sense now. :)

Best,
Ron

Lance Gatling
10th April 2008, 22:16
。。。。。。。。。
Once again, Mr. Delaney, I'll provide these sources to you and all the readers of this forum, below.
。。。。。。。。。。。。。
1. Nippon Jyujyutsu, Chapter 5, page 122
Japan Book of Formal Military Ways

Excerpt:

>>> Inlet Door - Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu

The inlet door period began when the disturbances of war caused crisis and emergencies. All organized assemble was suppressed by Armed Forces. Opponents used their bare hands to attack and assault. They dealt with skill, vigorously.

The aim, goal of the new body research, added this System to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu which flowed originally from our Ancestor whose development of crude Foot and Leg movements corrected by truth was the originating source.

The fame, reputation of our Ancestor's skill was throughout the whole country. This influenced five thousand people to receive passage of this approach. The System was transmitted to "Respect and Honor Human Life," even when wounding an opponent in order to defeat them. This is the aim, goal of this Branch, which was extended over a large area and became widely accepted. <<<

2. Jyujyutsu Taii Roku, written by Bo Terasaki (highest Disciple of the Ganso)

3. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jyujyutsu Gokui Kyoju Zukai (Secret teachings and pictorial analysis) written by Iso Mataemon Masanobu (4th Generation Headmaster) and Chiharu Yoshida (3rd Generation Headmaster's highest disciple, 2nd edition printing) - - a.k.a., "The Flag Book"
。。。。。。。。。。。

Steve, gents,

I'm familiar w/ #3 - it's been reprinted endlessly, and is readily available. I have some in my collection, 1893 original and recent reprints. It's fun, people use the art a lot, funky striped hakama and all. :laugh: I never read it with a mind to use just one part of it, will have to look again to see if that even makes sense.

Anyone have any idea what the other 2 are, or have a Japanese title?
An author for #1? The subtitle doesn't match the title, sounds wrong or a mistranslation.
Whose translation is that 'extract'?

I can't make heads or tails out of them.

Thanks,

jquinn
17th May 2008, 17:42
"There exist only two legitimate Tenjin Shinyō-ryū branches outside of Japan; one is led by Paul Masters in Britain. Paul actually holds menkyo (not menkyo kaiden). The other is in Australia, led by George Marton (also menkyo) but has nothing to do with the website. They are located in North Sydnye, NSW, and this is their website http://www.makotokan.com.au/tenjin.html

A third dōjō in New Jersey, led by Calvin Lester, has propagated false credentials. The person did study Tenjin Shinyō-ryū with Kubota-shihan in Japan, but never obtained the credentials he suggested. This dōjō is not affiliated with Tenjin Shinyō-ryū, and Mr. Lester has subsequently also changed the name or any suggestions in that sense."

This was posted May 5, 2008 on judoforum.com. Is this true? Has someone "officially" requested credentials from Mr. Lester?

Steve Delaney
17th May 2008, 23:27
Mr. Quinn,

I and other individuals have trained under the same teacher as Mr. Lester, Kubota Toshihiro sensei (Menkyo Kaiden Shihanke and Kodokan Judo 7th dan.) When asked about this, Kubota sensei answered rather succinctly with a negative response.

Aaron T
19th May 2008, 05:32
Uhhh Steve laid his points out plain and to the point. I think it is all very clear.


I have been watching this thread from afar and a few things stick out sore.

I do both koryu and gendai, and the truth is no one is "deeper" than the other. No one is closer to "combat" than the other. The difference is their context.

The problem is when folks want to play make-believe. Folksy sounding vocab that has no actual meaning is just silly. Why not make some good shit up. BADMOFOIS is my new title. Going on and on about your bad habits is just silly, whatever folks want to call stuff and how they rationalize the goofy-ass points on the internet is even goofier. THere is right and wrong, there is accurate and non accurate.

In other words everyone is free to do what with whoever they like. Just don't come peddling bull.

By the way Steve, how are you? You are way to patient, when are you coming to Seattle.

Aaron Fields
Seattle Jujutsu Club, Hatake Dojo
Sea-Town Sombo
www.seattle-jujutsu.org

Ree
22nd May 2008, 14:29
Mr Block

Thankyo for your references could you please tell me:-

1. When was the Nippon Jujutsu book published and who was the author and the publisher?

2.Which of the question and answers in the Taiiroku are you quoting?

3.And on what page of the 'Flag Book' are you talking about?

PeteJMM
30th May 2008, 22:11
Hello everyone,

Not sure if there is closed only to certain people or not (please let me know if it is), but I've been reading these posts, and towards the beginning, I saw that someone made mention of George Parulski, and how he claims to represent something called Okazaki-ha Shin Tenshin shin'yo ryu. Does anyone know about this, or can tell me something regarding that claim?

Thanks,

Steve Delaney
31st May 2008, 01:36
PeteJMM,

Doing a search on e-budo for Palruski's name will provide you with a plethora of information on this individual.

George R. Palruski and the Seibukan (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6962&highlight=Palruski)

drosera99
20th July 2008, 19:02
Sorry if this has already been mentioned or if this isn't the best place for this, but I just stumbled upon a dojo in Southern California that claims to teach Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

http://www.jwsamuraiacademy.com/

Does anyone know these people? Are they legit? I find their webpage a little bit suspicious and would like to know if they're for real.

Thanks.

Steve Delaney
21st July 2008, 02:53
Joseph M. DeStefano II, rokudan-renshi

A martial arts historian, Mr. DeStefano holds a 6th degree Black Belt (rokudan-renshi)in Tenjin-shin'yo-ryu Jujutsu, a 4th Degree Black Belt (yodan) in Kodokan Judo, as well as a 3rd Degree Black Belt (Sandan) in Okinawan Shorin-ryu Karate, and a 1st Degree Black Belt in Seidokan Aikido. From 1988-1992 he served as the Head Coach of Loyola Marymount University Judo Club and is a life member of both the United States Judo Association, and the United States Martial Arts Association, and a USJA Certified State Rank Examiner. In addition, he is certified in the Japanese arts of shiatsu (Accupressure) and amma (massage).



1. Never heard of him or any mention of him in Japan.
2. There are no dan grades in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu
3. Massive amounts of spelling errors for someone claiming to be so high up the ladder.
4. Although Kubota Shihan in the Tenyokai has many foreign students and we all know or at least know of each other, I'm pretty sure the Shinyokai, run by Shibata s. has no foreign students in his line.

drosera99
21st July 2008, 05:54
1. Never heard of him or any mention of him in Japan.
2. There are no dan grades in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu
3. Massive amounts of spelling errors for someone claiming to be so high up the ladder.
4. Although Kubota Shihan in the Tenyokai has many foreign students and we all know or at least know of each other, I'm pretty sure the Shinyokai, run by Shibata s. has no foreign students in his line.

Thanks. That's very very helpful. I didn't think that there were Dan grades in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and that's precisely one of the (several) things that made me suspicious.

jujitsuwilliam
17th January 2009, 11:28
It has been confirmed to me by Derek Fairhurst, that he and jimmy pape along with barry williams and vernon bell, adopted the tenshin curriculam brought back from Japan by Jack Britten. The system was to include muscular, skeltel, nerve points, balance and direction etc. Derek who obtained a menkyo whilst studying for a short period with Kubota has pointed out a number of differences, the rear hip throw is learned in japan at menkyo kaidan level, whilst under the adopted syllabus is learned at 6th kyu in UK and is one of the building blocks. The system was built around, nage,kansetsu, atemi, and shime and ultimately if worthy the more special techniques. Derek describes it as a " fighting form " of tenshin, with all the techniques contained in the UK syllabus. As a technicallity he advise me that it cannot be considered a "pure" form of tenshin simply because the techniques are not practised in the same order as the curriculum in japan. In dereks opinion it is second to none, and often better than the original.
So there you have it, you can take 7-10 years learning the bell (and others) stricktly non pure system of tenshin, brought back from japan, or go to japan and obtain a menkyo studying a few months or however long it takes from kubota or whoever else you may chose. Obviously both have their different merits, a matter of choice