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meat
18th October 2002, 03:59
Hey guys, is it true that jujutsu was banned after the Meiji restoration and then again after the close of ww2? Was it just jujutsu or all traditional arts? Can anyone give me more details?
Cheers

Steven Malanosk
18th October 2002, 04:21
General Mcarther put a ban on BuTokuKai and all related MARTIAL ARTS.

Thus later, the promotion of holistic, society beneficial WAYS being formed to ease back into acceptence.

Karate dojo tried lableing themselves as Japanese boxing.

Besides that, after there where no more Samurai so to speak, JJ became a spectator showcase similar to Pro wrestling in many cases, as the trainers of BuShi where out of a job.

The original BuTokuKai building, was used as a USO type dance and recreation hall for allied troops.

Cady Goldfield
25th October 2002, 19:11
Long before MacArthur imposed a ban on jujutsu and weaponry in Japan, at the close of WWII, jujutsu had actually gained some popularity in the US. Thanks to a visit to Japan by one of his envoys, President Theodore Roosevelt became fascinated by jujutsu and even invited jujutsuka to the White House to teach.

Neil Yamamoto
25th October 2002, 19:19
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth1_1000.htm

For anyone interested in more details on what Cady posted.

Jerry Johnson
25th October 2002, 22:09
Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Long before MacArthur imposed a ban on jujutsu and weaponry in Japan, at the close of WWII, jujutsu had actually gained some popularity in the US. Thanks to a visit to Japan by one of his envoys, President Theodore Roosevelt became fascinated by jujutsu and even invited jujutsuka to the White House to teach.

I remember someone showing me a rare book by someone named O'Brien who was a US Government employee (sp) who claimed to have gone to Japan and was taught jujutsu by a Governor ( or equalant ) of a Prefecture in Japan. O'Brien claims he introduced and was first to teach jujitsu to Teddy and some of his cabinet. O' Brien in his book also claims this introduced Teddy and America to Jujitsu. He also claims to be the author of the first book of jujitsu and the first to bring the Japanese self-defense /Jujitsu to the US. Which clearly isn't true being the first to bring it to the US, because many Japanese settled in the US long before the 1900's and more then likely some of them where trained in jujitsu besides other arts.

The book's illustrations interestingly enough where photos and hand drawings of men where in suits and Boler hats, and woman in dresses of that time, early 1900. The book's illustrations where clearly self-defense jujitsu moves and not judo throws. Fwiw. I am not a judo expert, but I have been told there are self-defense more within judo, which these moves in the book may have been judo. Or may have been strictly jujitsu. What Ryu I don't know. The copy right I think was 1901 or something.

Anyway, I know the Japanese keep great records if this where true what O'Brien claims about learning it bring it to America, then there are records to back the claims in Japan. Unfortunately I don't remember the Japanese instructor name or title and where he lived which was printed in the book.

Walker
26th October 2002, 00:48
Book cover.

Walker
26th October 2002, 01:01
See also O’Brien’s contemporary in Nagasaki Risher Thornberry:
http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_henderson_0600.htm

From Neil’s citation above:
“As Roosevelt put it in a letter to his sons, he believed in ‘rough, manly sports’ so long as they did not ‘degenerate into the sole end of one’s existence… character counts for a great deal more than either intellect or body in winning success in life.’ And he thought he knew all about jujutsu. After all, in 1902, his wrestling instructor, a Philadelphia policeman named James J. O’Brien, had shown him some tricks he had learned in Japan. (O’Brien had been a constable at Nagasaki's Umegasaki Station from 1895 to 1899, so the instruction was legitimate.)”

O’Brien:

Walker
26th October 2002, 01:19
Oh, one other thing.

I can’t really back this up, but some say the style was Tenshin Shinyo, but could just as easily be Kodokan or even both.

I await Joe’s correction.....

Cady Goldfield
26th October 2002, 04:20
Joe Svinth's article is a fine example of his typically thorough research and well-organized writing. It makes clear the point that jujutsu was well established, although quite limited in availability and following, in the US throughout Theordore Roosevelt's presidency, and probably existed in small pockets of mostly Japanese immigrant communities thereafter. When MacArthur banned the practice of such arts in Japan as part of the post-surrender conditions, I wonder whether any significant number of Japanese emigrated to the US to continue their martial practices?

Apropos Joe's historical mention of the jujutsu program at Harvard University during T. Roosevelt's presidency, I am holding in front of me a book called, "Jiu-Jitsu Combat Tricks [subtitle: Japanese Feats of Attack and Defence in Personal Encounter]," by H. Irving Hancock. Published and copyright 1904.

It is more of a introductory narrative about jujutsu than an instruction book with specific step-by-step drills; however, it does contain some interesting tips and lots of photographs of young Japanese men demonstrating various techniques, which are described by the author.

Here's an excerpt from Chapter VI, which bears the rather unwieldy (but typical to the era) title: "The Boxer's Tricks Utterly Useless Against The 'Jiu-Jitsu' Adept -- Why the Edge of the Hand Is a More Dangerous Weapon Than the Clenched Fist -- The Use of the Bases of the Hand -- A Few Preliminary Ways of Stopping the Blows of the Boxer, With Damage to the Latter When Desired"

(Whew! ;) )


It is difficult for the skilled boxer of the Anglo-Saxon race to realise that his painstakingly acquired art is of no avail against the adept in jiu-jitsu. Yet the sooner this is realised to be a fact the sooner we shall cease reading in the newspapers of occasional instances where big Caucasians have tried pugilism on small Japanese, and have gone down ingloriously in the effort.
At least two or three times in every year we read of some Japanese who has had an altercation with an American policeman and has promptly put the latter on his back. Reinforcements, and still more reinforcements were called before th Japanese was subdued and made a prisoner.
Last spring, in the Harvard gymnasium, there was an interesting encounter between Tyng, the strong man of that University, and a diminutive Japanese, a fellow student. Tyng tried his best foot-ball tackle, and threw his smaller opponent. But, after that, the Japanese eluded each effort to seize him. After the sport of dodging had continued for some time the Japanese darted in, took a lightning hold, and put Mr. Tyng upon the floor.

Judging by the photos, the book must have utilized Japanese jujutsuka who were part of the training program at Harvard. Some of the pictures show them in keikogi and hakama, while others show them in the Western clothing of the period -- complete with bowler hats in some of the photos.

Walker
26th October 2002, 08:34
Jiu Jitsu Combat Tricks is kind of a “smaller” version of The Complete Kano Jiu Jitsu (not and not, but is jujutsu) by the same author. Tricks are by Higashi Katsukuma who is credited as co-author on Complete Kano.

see: http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_edgren1_0300.htm

They also published a bit of women’s physical culture in the form of Physical Training for Women by Japanese Methods

http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_sandow's_0800.htm
[Sam Hill’s house is just up the road — has a bunch of Rodins, but doesn’t everyone....]

One on children’s that I haven’t seen and Hancock cranked out a bunch of youth lit.

Also there is a volume of the Spalding‘s Red Cover sports series that uses some of the material.

Another document to check out from that era is The Secrets of Jujitsu, A Complete Course in Self Defense by Captain Allan Corstorphin Smith. It’s one of the best of breed in my opinion.
Find the whole thing on line:
http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncframe.htm

Neil and I as “Pencil Headed Geek and Trusted ‘Valet’” :D

Walker
26th October 2002, 09:03
Page from Kano Jiu Jitsu:

Walker
26th October 2002, 09:05
Page from Physical Training for Women:

Cady Goldfield
26th October 2002, 14:37
Good info and pix, Doug. (heh heh... I like the one "you and Neil").

Yes, the "Combat Tricks" book was published after the one on "Women's training using Japanese methods," as the latter title is listed in the front plate as one of the author's other publications. And, the "Combat Tricks" book contains part of a chapter devoted to self-defense for women, which I found to be almost ahead of its time in some ways.

When I get to a scanner, I'll post some of the photos from the book if anybody is interested.

Óscar Recio
26th October 2002, 15:02
Please...post them!!!!!!!
Will be waiting!!!!!
Óscar Recio

Jerry Johnson
26th October 2002, 21:37
I was greatly surprised, Mr. Walker, when you posted O’Brien’s book. I didn't know it still existed. I was presented the book by a scholar who had access to rare books.

I don't know if my memory served me right, but I guess it wasn't too bad.

Thanks

Joseph Svinth
27th October 2002, 00:16
If someone has access to Philadelphia newspapers on microfilm, then probably all kinds of Biddle and O'Brien material would be brought to light.

This is an extract written by O'Brien. It originally appeared in the Philadelphia "Ledger," but I found it in "Japan Times" (April 12, 1931, page 2). It's called "A Girl’s Defense Against the Strangler."

"A cool head and the ability to think fast in an emergency are, of course, essential. A girl must keep her wits about her and be prepared to act quickly. A few rehearsals of these simple tricks will give her confidence."

See, self-defense training hasn't changed so much over the years. (The problem comes when people confuse confidence with tactical ability under stress.)

BTW, Hancock's book on women's jujutsu is available on microfilm, so if you're near a major university library, you should be able to produce your own copy for 10c-25c per page. Most of what it shows are exercises rather than throws, locks, etc.

Cady Goldfield
27th October 2002, 00:21
Thanks, Joe. As it so happens, I'm near Harvard, where I once was a grad student. If I'd known about the historical presence of jujutsu at the university, I would have scoured the Widner archives when I was there!

Jerry Johnson
27th October 2002, 03:58
Originally posted by Joseph Svinth


See, self-defense training hasn't changed so much over the years. (The problem comes when people confuse confidence with tactical ability under stress.)


Stuff like this thread is really what E-budo does best imo. The history of jujitsu in this country is, if I am not wrong, still a frontier waiting to be explored. If someone complied all this historic info, you betcha I would buy it. Just simply for the reason Mr. Svinth pointed out.

I was unaware upto this point the number of people who had an interest or experienced Jujitsu so early in American life. It is facsinating to know Harvard had an interest in it as well.

We hear alot about Karate making it's debut in American but almost nothing about jujitsu so jujitsu (Americanized as it was) is still my first love so this is great stuff to read.

Thanks to all.

Dan Harden
27th October 2002, 04:17
"Catch as catch can" freestyle wrestlers gave early Judo/jujutsu players some difficult moments. I have several books, articles-hell even pictures baging around here somehere from the early 1900's.
Never-ever give up freestlye for Kata only training in body arts.
Never-ever give up Kata-for randori- only training in body arts.
cheers
Dan
Man I haven't posted this much in years I have to stop drawing on this damn machine. Now I need glasses!

Cady Goldfield
27th October 2002, 23:36
Catch-as-catch-can wrestlers have more "streetwise" tricks than football players, and while they may have a limited repertoire, they know myriad ways to make them work in nearly any situation. On the other hand, they don't have the disciplined science of a jujutsuka. An interesting contest, to be sure.


Originally posted by Dan Harden
Man I haven't posted this much in years I have to stop drawing on this damn machine. Now I need glasses!

Dan, dear, you don't need glasses now because of all the "drawing on this damn machine," you need glasses now because you are ol...er...Of a Certain Age. Can you say, "presbyopia"?

Grinnin', duckin' and runnin' like hell,
Cady

Brently Keen
28th October 2002, 06:06
"Never-ever give up freestyle for Kata only training in body arts. Never-ever give up Kata-for randori- only training in body arts."

That sounds like very good, common sense advice, Dan.

I note the the qualifier of "body arts". Would you also say the same applies for weapons arts? Why or why not?

Brently Keen

Walker
29th October 2002, 23:13
Couldn’t resist sticking this ad up for Cady’s book. $1.35 by mail. Now there’s a deal.

Cady Goldfield
29th October 2002, 23:23
Hmph! It cost me 6 bucks on E-Bay. That's 100 years of inflation for you...

ghp
30th October 2002, 02:56
Hi Steven,
General Mcarther put a ban on BuTokuKai and all related MARTIAL ARTS. My response comes from the top of my head and is as accurate as can be without accessing my notes. I would have to dig out my thesis to get the actual data (and you know the probability of that!!) :) So, with that caveat firmly in mind ...

No, MacArthur did not ban martial arts. He did, as you state, ban the Butokukai as an organization with Nationalistic ties or fostering Emperor Worship, Nationalism, etc. It wasn't about budo, it was about Nationalistic propaganda and subversion of the populace to government will.

There was a ban, however. But it was public schools that were banned from teaching budo -- mostly kendo -- because of the "yamato damashii" nationalistic propaganda and "corrupted bushido" that had been interwoven into the teachings. And the ban came from the Monbusho [Ministry of Education] on the recommendation of a Commission that met in Washington DC. So the ban appears to have been a Japanese ban, and not a General MacArthur ban.

And although kendo was expressly banned by Monbusho, budo was still being taught in early post-war Japan. As early as September-October 1945 Walter Todd was learning judo inside the old Kodokan building; and in 1946, Captain Benjamin Hazard began his kendo career under the instruction of the Japanese police in Tokyo.

What has been suggested is that although while not put into written law, the private dojo voluntarily closed shop to to protect themselves. After all, they saw the Butokuaki purge (none of the DNBK officers could ever hold even the lowest of government jobs) and witnessed the Ministry of Education banning kendo from public schools. Logically, the lesser members of the Butokukai would feel threatened; possibly they stopped in order not to attract unwanted attention.

At one point even the police dojo was closed down because the Provost Marshal (PM) thought their kendo training was insufficient. He forced them to stop kendo because of their poor crowd-control during the May Riot -- police sticks [jo] were wrestled from the police by the protesters; therefore, the PM introduced NYPD baton training, thinking them better than kendo. Perhaps the PM thought jo waza came from kendo. Dr. Hazard states that after the PM put a halt on kendo, he and his teacher would surreptitiously meet at a ballet studio and train. After a while, more and more former students attended the ballet studio for kendo keiko; they figured that if the Military Intelligence office knew about the kendo training, it was all right to do so. Of course, they thought Capt. Hazard was relaying information to MI, but he wasn't [from interview with Dr. Hazard in 1998].

In 1947 kendo was again allowed to be taught in public school -- as long as it was not combat oriented. The inventive Japanese called this version "Shinai Kyogi" [bamboo-sword competition] and deleted the nage waza [throws]. Shinai Kyogi again developed back into "Kendo" -- but it retained its new competitive bent. I've also seen Japanese sources listing "1947 -- Kendo ban lifted", etc. So if the "budo ban" was not written law, it must have been a perceived law.

Regards,
Guy

ps. Dr. Benjamin Hazard retired as a Colonel; is Professor Emeritus of Asian History, San Jose State University (Ca.); contributor on `kendo' in Kodansha Encyclopedia of Japan (1983); kendo Hanshi, 2001; speaks, reads, and writes Japanese and Korean. Not to mention -- he has experience in kyudo, naginata, and Western fencing.

Chris Li
30th October 2002, 04:28
Originally posted by ghp
No, MacArthur did not ban martial arts. He did, as you state, ban the Butokukai as an organization with Nationalistic ties or fostering Emperor Worship, Nationalism, etc. It wasn't about budo, it was about Nationalistic propaganda and subversion of the populace to government will.

There was a ban, however. But it was public schools that were banned from teaching budo -- mostly kendo -- because of the "yamato damashii" nationalistic propaganda and "corrupted bushido" that had been interwoven into the teachings. And the ban came from the Monbusho [Ministry of Education] on the recommendation of a Commission that met in Washington DC. So the ban appears to have been a Japanese ban, and not a General MacArthur ban.

And although kendo was expressly banned by Monbusho, budo was still being taught in early post-war Japan. As early as September-October 1945 Walter Todd was learning judo inside the old Kodokan building; and in 1946, Captain Benjamin Hazard began his kendo career under the instruction of the Japanese police in Tokyo.

What has been suggested is that although while not put into written law, the private dojo voluntarily closed shop to to protect themselves. After all, they saw the Butokuaki purge (none of the DNBK officers could ever hold even the lowest of government jobs) and witnessed the Ministry of Education banning kendo from public schools. Logically, the lesser members of the Butokukai would feel threatened; possibly they stopped in order not to attract unwanted attention.

This is essentially what Kisshomaru Ueshiba (who was there at the time!) says about the post-war situation in "Aikido Ichiro". He also says that the situation at that time is (and was) often misunderstood, even in Japan, which probably led to a lot of closings that weren't really necessary. The fact that most people were scrambling just to eat at this time might have had something to do with it too :).

Best,

Chris

ghp
30th October 2002, 04:33
Hi Chris,

Thanks for that citation ... wish I knew about it when I was writing my thesis as there was scant little I could find regarding aikido in post-war Japan. I'm glad Kisshomaru sensei agrees with me!! ;)

Regards,
Guy

Steven Malanosk
30th October 2002, 04:46
It seems that we learn something new, every day.

Thanks