chiburi

[Ka1yama]

Hey all,
Is there a source that depicts a wide variety of chiburi techniques I can try in my kata?
Neil

[Soulend]

Don't your kata have a specific type of chiburi called for?

[Chidokan]

careful how you say chiburui. Chiburi has something to do with preparing wet fish for a barbacue.I said it that way once and my teacher had a laughing fit...:D
Depends on your ryu. MJER haas two methods, however there are currently three versions that I know of of doing one of them and two for the other...

Tim Hamilton

[renfield_kuroda]

Originally posted by Chidokan
careful how you say chiburui. Chiburi has something to do with preparing wet fish for a barbacue.I said it that way once and my teacher had a laughing fit...
Tim Hamilton

I don't get it.
Chiburi = chi-o furu

Where's the wet BBQ fish part?

Confus'd,

renfield kuroda

[Ka1yama]

I know of one where you swing the blade in an almost haragiri-type motion and let the tsuka hit your forearm to sling the blood off.

Another involves hitting the tsuka with your left hand and turning the blade up words with your right hand for noto.

Another I have seen involves twirling the sword around your hand and attenuating your fingers so the blade ends up in gyuaku no kamae, wipe the blade and noto.

Yet another involves simply wiping the blade on your keogi sleeve?!?!?

What other ones are there?

Neil Stewart

[Charles Mahan]

Originally posted by Chidokan
careful how you say chiburui. Chiburi has something to do with preparing wet fish for a barbacue.I said it that way once and my teacher had a laughing fit...:D
Depends on your ryu. MJER haas two methods, however there are currently three versions that I know of of doing one of them and two for the other...

Tim Hamilton

MJER has more than 2. Some of them I don't even know the names of.

The two most common though are o-chiburi and yoko chiburi. Then there's that funny chiburi in roppon me ukenagashi and the even funnier one in happon me tsukigage(or is it... ahh you know number 8). There are some variations on yoko-chiburi in the Oku waza that are almost different chiburi's altogether. I'm sure I've missed a couple.

As for the point of the thread, not sure of a resource showing different kinds. I kinda agree with Soulend. Don't your kata have chiburi's? These are pretty strictly dictated by the styles, and there are usually a host of reasons why they are done particular ways.

[ghp]

Tim,


chiburui

Gee ... then would I be wrong for doing "furikaburi" instead of "furui-kaburi"?? :D

[furui meaning "old"]

Guy

[Chidokan]

No, you dont as you well know... I'm only repeating what he said, maybe my accent makes it even worse, maybe my sensei has a twisted sense of humour.. :rolleyes: Maybe another Japanese person wants to listen to me say chiburi and see what it comes out like...:D
Now I think about it,I suppose theres also kabezoi as well from oku iai. tsukikage has two versions I know so far, the other one is where you use your hakama as a wipe(obviously not your best pair...)
Anyway, ask your teacher, he should know them all.

Tim Hamilton

[ghp]

Hi Tim, and thanks for taking my jibe in a good-natured way :D

As far as chiburi go, the one Charles mentioned in "Ukenagashi" is actually a "chi-nagare" -- that is, a "blood flowing". After the final cut the blade is placed upon the right knee while both hands are elevated so that the blade is angled downward -- to prep for a "gyaku noto" [reversed return]. While the blade is positioned on the right knee at a 45 degree angle (or close enough), the blood is supposedly able to flow down the blade. So I have been told. Of course, the blade should still have "battlefield residue", right??

In the "Tsukekomi" chiburi, you wipe the blood from the blade by squeezing ("squeegee") it with your thumb and forefinger as the blade is pulled back and upward [you MJER guys know what I mean]. What has been "deleted" (or forgotten??) from this waza since the end of the Second War was the final coup d'grace thrust made to the fallen opponent's throat. After jumping into o-jodan no kamae and kneeling into position (a kneeling chudangamae/kirioroshi, depending on your teacher), the sword is positioned similar to the above "gyaku noto" -- except the blade rests on the left knee. From this position the right hand thrusts downward into the fallen opponents throat, then disengaged. From this point the "finger squeeze" is performed. It is done with the bare fingers -- however, my teacher showed me that you could slip your hand into your hakama to use it (or any other available material) as a drying cloth. Course ... your wife won't get so mad if you use the fallen opponent's clothing :D

Here's a different chiburi I learned 32 years ago in a different art: After the final cut, cradle the mune/mine [back of the blade]in your left "elbow-pit" and squeezed between the forearm and tricep as you pull the blade away. I suppose if you had a hard day at the "office" and came home with a big bloody stain on your left sleeve ... the wife would go ballistic! :laugh:

Finally -- as far as Toyama Ryu goes -- we use what looks similar to the Eishin Ryu "snap". However, we are taught not to snap, but to imagine performing a downward cut and stopping in the "chiburi" position. The purpose is to prepare to execute a thrust. We use it as an "en garde" position, not to remove "battlefield debris" (semi-recent experience proves this does not clean the blade).

Regards,
Guy

[Jack B]

When my Iaito gets a little "grungy" during practice, I have a probably bad habit of cleaning it between techniques by clenching the blade in the crook of my elbow and drawing it along the mune. I don't tend to use a lot of oil so it doesn't soil my keikogi very much. Don't think I'd do that in montsuki, or with battlefield offal.

I've always thought of chiburi as ways to rid the blade of anything that would interfere with its use, in a way that does not leave one open to attack. The blade is useful even if it has a patina of blood on it, whereas lots of blood or chunks of bone and organs might be inconvenient. So I don't see why it is a big problem that chiburi doesn't perfectly clean all traces of blood. These are not art blades, and I figure if you're in a battle (war or personal) you'll want to repolish your blade and replace the saya, if both you and the blade survive.

Jack Bieler

[Chidokan]

Dont know if you've noticed, but a lot of tameshigiri people either have a 'working' saya that gets wet over repetetive use and a storage one for after the blade has been cleaned. Only time I saw someone without these, he did not sheath the blade until after he had cleaned and re-oiled it. Suppose it keeps moisture off the blade between practise sessions, although knowing how quick swords can rust I would be pretty keen on a proper clean when I got home..

Tim Hamilton

[pgsmith]

I don't know anyone that keeps their working blades in a seperate saya after they clean them. Perhaps they do and just didn't bother to say so. Also, you have no choice but to noto when you are at Toyama Ryu Tai Kai. If you do not noto, you are disqualified as it's part of the technique. Yes, the blade gets a bit stained and sometimes can begin starting rust stains before you get a chance to clean it decently. I used to use uchiko, choji, and elbow grease to clean mine up until someone showed me the miracle of Flitz. Gotta remember, to most tameshigiri people, it's a working sword first and is expected to get a bit dirty.

Cheers,

[Andy Watson]

I know a couple of others from other styles but I would first like Neil to answer the earlier question as to why he needs to know this.

Neil, don't your kata have specific chiburi in them?

If not then should you be changing the kata which are taught to you by putting chiburi in? Perhaps there is a good reason why there is not chiburi in the first place.

Hmmm?

[Ka1yama]

I am a steel freak and was simply curious. I do not specifically study Iai/batto/kenjutsu. I study ninpo happo biken (there is alot of that on these forums ;) ) There is a school called Shindenfudo Ryu which has battojutsu in it's tenants but not done as kata; more as ideas to practice. That and just curious in the study of such a deep anthropology.
Neil Stewart

[Andy Watson]

Okay, I will try to categorize them as I know them...

Muso Shinden Ryu / Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu

The two most prevalent types of chiburi are known as o-chiburi and yoko chiburi.

O-chiburi involves a large cutting motion from the right hand side of the head down to a diagonal position.

Yoko chiburi is performed directly after a cut resulting in the sword being in a horizontal position. This is achieved by maintaining its level and making a flat cutting motion to the right.

In addition to these, within the seitei kata there are two more types, jodan chiburi which is similar to ochiburi but from a jodan position with the hands moving in a shape like the "slopes of Mt Fuji". The other type, for which I am not sure if there is a name, are the "draining-off" chiburi's to be found in uke nagashi and soete zuki where the angled sword supposedly allows the remnants to drain off.

Shinkage Ryu

Again I am unsure of the name of this movement but I guess it is a variant of jodan chiburi. From a jodan position the sword is dropped straight forward until it is pointing at the floor. The body is then adjusted to a slight angled position with the sword still pointed at the fallen opponent, much in the same way as the en guard posture mentioned in an earlier post.

Katori Shinto Ryu

The famous chiburi found here and in a couple of other styles involves a rotating flick of the right hand making the sword spin in the left. The rotation is stopped by a hammer fist action of the right hand on the tsuka, also promoting a flicking of blood.



That's all that come to mind at the moment and I am by no means an authority in ryuha.

[Jack B]

What has been "deleted" (or forgotten??) from this waza since the end of the Second War was the final coup d'grace thrust made to the fallen opponent's throat. Guy, we don't move the sword, but the ability to thrust is emphasized as riai by every teacher I have trained with. In o-chiburi, etc, as well as in Tuskekomi.

Another aside, I believe the yokochiburi in okuiai is done with the hasuji at an angle, as opposed to the "flat" yokochiburi in battoho and tatehiza. This was apparently the older way, so the blood would run off the edge rather than just sitting there. There is sometimes a little dip downward of the kissaki, but the most admired yokochiburi tend to be so level you could set down a martini glass on the blade.

[Andy Watson]

A martini glass??? I shall try that next session. That'll be fun, iai to the tinkering sounds of breaking glass.