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Jim London
21st October 2002, 05:17
I posted the following in the "Baffling Budo" section as an example of someone who had achieved multiple high dan ranks and was completely legitimate. However I really dont know a lot about him, I thought I would transfer my initial comments over here and see if anyone knows more and would like to tell us.

Minoru Mochisuki founder Yoseikan Aikido.

Yoseikan Aikido is a comprehensive martial art that includes aikido, jujutsu, judo, karate, kenjutsu, and kobudo. Minoru Mochizuki, studied aikijujutsu under Morehei Ueshiba, judo under it's founder Jigoro Kano and his most famous student, Kyuzo Mifune, Shotokan karate, under its founder, Gichin Funakosi, as well as several other styles of jujutsu, and kenjutsu.

Minoru Mochizuki is still alive in his 90s.

Photo Gallery

10° Dan Meijin in Aikido, stile Yoseikan (from Ueshiba)
9° Dan in Nihon Ju Jutsu
8° Dan in Judo (From Kano)
8° Dan in Iai Jutsu
8° Dan in Katori Shinto Ryu (YES, the real one)
5° Dan in Kendo
5° Dan in Shindo Muso Ryu

This list is obviously incomplete, because some quick research shows he studied a number of other arts to Dan rank.

Not sure what his Datu-Ryu rank is, but he trained that under Ueshiba as well. I am not sure what his Shotakan rank is, but its some Dan rank or other....

All this man has ever done is studied.

Thanks in advance.
Jim London

gmellis
21st October 2002, 05:42
Did a little surfing. Turns out he learned Katori Shinto Ryu forms at the kodokan, much like Sugino. That would explain the use of the modern "dan" ranking, why I have never heard his name mentioned at the Shimbukan, nor seen a nafuda (name plaque) with his name on it here. That, unfortunately, also means that whatever certificate he received for the art is not recognized by the school. That is not to say what he learned is of no merit, as it seems from my reading that he was one of those talented "integrators" that learned, adapted and compiled a martial style based on his own experiences and insights. But it just can't be called "real" Katori Shinto Ryu.

Chris Li
21st October 2002, 06:02
Originally posted by gmellis
Did a little surfing. Turns out he learned Katori Shinto Ryu forms at the kodokan, much like Sugino. That would explain the use of the modern "dan" ranking, why I have never heard his name mentioned at the Shimbukan, nor seen a nafuda (name plaque) with his name on it here. That, unfortunately, also means that whatever certificate he received for the art is not recognized by the school. That is not to say what he learned is of no merit, as it seems from my reading that he was one of those talented "integrators" that learned, adapted and compiled a martial style based on his own experiences and insights. But it just can't be called "real" Katori Shinto Ryu.

As a side note, IIRC he stated in an interview that he had gotten an offer to be adopted by marriage into Katori - he doesn't specify, but I assume that he means the main line, which would have made him the successor to the tradition (I assume). He had a similar offer from M. Ueshiba, but ended up turning both down.

Best,

Chris

MarkF
21st October 2002, 06:20
Hello, Greg,
You pretty much covered my comments which really comes in handy sometimes. I wouldn't be posting this except to clarify that Mochizuki, a very good judoka from what I know, but almost certainly did not receive an 8-dan under Kano. Did he spend time or study with Kano Sensei? Did Kano S. grade him to yudansha grades? Well, sure, at least at some time he did. Lots of people in many countries received some input from Prof. Kano. Mr. Kenneth Kuniyuki, formerly of the Seattle Judo Dojo, was graded personally by Mr. Kano while he, Kano, visited Seattle, to sandan. Kuniyuki-Sensei, now also in his 90s (I believe 93), has resided in Los Angeles for quite some time now and was one of those who started the Nanka Yudanshakai in Southern California. I know he was recently graded by the Kodokan, but I am not sure of the actual grade. I would think to at least 8-dan, possibly 9-dan.

I also wondered about the dan-i grade in TSKSR as it isn't so large that the old style menjo licensing wouldn't be so time-consuming to throw it out, for example, as did DR AJJ.
****

Darn, and I was going to let your comments stand. I really only meant to mention the judo grade as being unlikely from Kano Jigoro-Shihan, himself. He did do so for several who were out of country in those days (Kuniyuki received the license from Kano when Kano returned to Japan).

I've never seen Yoseikan, but it must be interesting to say the least.


Regards,
Mark

Chris Li
21st October 2002, 06:35
Originally posted by MarkF
Hello, Greg,
You pretty much covered my comments which really comes in handy sometimes. I wouldn't be posting this except to clarify that Mochizuki, a very good judoka from what I know, but almost certainly did not receive an 8-dan under Kano. Did he spend time or study with Kano Sensei? Did Kano S. grade him to yudansha grades? Well, sure, at least at some time he did. Lots of people in many countries received some input from Prof. Kano. Mr. Kenneth Kuniyuki, formerly of the Seattle Judo Dojo, was graded personally by Mr. Kano while he, Kano, visited Seattle, to sandan. Kuniyuki-Sensei, now also in his 90s (I believe 93), has resided in Los Angeles for quite some time now and was one of those who started the Nanka Yudanshakai in Southern California. I know he was recently graded by the Kodokan, but I am not sure of the actual grade. I would think to at least 8-dan, possibly 9-dan.

As I understand these things Mochizuki spent a fair amount of time training with Kano (he was required to make formal reports on his training progress to Kano a couple of times a month) - he got san dan, at least, at the Kodokan around 1928 (?) or so and lived in Mifune's house, so he seems to have been more or less in the thick of things. My impression is that the 8th dan came from the Kodokan, but not from Kano personally. The 10th dan in Aikido did not come from Ueshiba, either, although it apparently received the informal approval of K. Ueshiba.


Best,

Chris

Jim London
21st October 2002, 16:39
MarkF wrote
I also wondered about the dan-i grade in TSKSR as it isn't so large that the old style menjo licensing wouldn't be so time-consuming to throw it out,

Hi Mark, I think he studied KSR at the Kodokan, they were and still are fairly obsessed with using the dan-i system, so his KSR grade may be a Kodokan version.... Just speculation on my part really.

An interesting piece of the story is the desire by Ueshiba to have Mochisuki Sensei marry into his family. As the story goes this would have provided Ueshiba-Sensei with his chosen heir in Aikido, and is the reason Mochisuki-S left Ueshiba-S.

Jim London.

Chris Li
21st October 2002, 22:51
Originally posted by Jim London


Hi Mark, I think he studied KSR at the Kodokan, they were and still are fairly obsessed with using the dan-i system, so his KSR grade may be a Kodokan version.... Just speculation on my part really.

An interesting piece of the story is the desire by Ueshiba to have Mochisuki Sensei marry into his family. As the story goes this would have provided Ueshiba-Sensei with his chosen heir in Aikido, and is the reason Mochisuki-S left Ueshiba-S.

Jim London.

The marriage part is true, but I don't know that that is the reason that Mochizuki went out on his own. He was with Ueshiba for some time after turning down the marriage offer and always (to this day) maintained good relations with the Ueshibas, AFAIK. More likely he juts had some of his own ideas.

Best,

Chris

MarkF
22nd October 2002, 11:04
I'd be very surprised if Kano or the Kodokan ranked Mochizuki to 8-dan Kodokan Judo. It isn't impossible, it just isn't very likely.

For one thing, Kano was pretty much out of the loop at the Kodokan by 1930. His quest by then was Sports in Japan, judo was already established. The Kodokan could surprise, such as the anouncement that they would no longer grade anyone to 10-dan then grade Sumiyuki Kotani to 10-dan. There are exceptions to all rules, but even the earliest of Kano's students were graded to 10-dan posthumously, eg, Yamashita Yoshitsugu. Reports, etc., were always informal, even Kano's grading of Kenny Kuniyuki-sensei to sandan way back in Seattle came as somewhat of a surprise. The so-called reports were sometimes found in newspapers or from stories from others. Kodokan Judo was never so specific as to follow even its own rules in that area. The exception would be the one who received shodan in three months and godan in two years. I'm having trouble with names at the moment but these guys were the exceptions. Kano S. was known to visit someone in another country, and finding them not at home, would leave the densho.

They issued the statement concerning 10-dan again fairly recently. Considering the popularity of that coveted rank, I think this time they would be able to keep their word. But ya' never know.

Mochizuki was always known as a "character" in judo circles, and from what I know of his Yoseikan (I'm not even sure if you can call it aikido), he is unique.
*****

As far as TSKSR, the Kodokan and Kano S. had always known of who was who at the honbu so I doubt any Kodokan license was issued in anything but judo. Kano also taught sword technique but almost exclusively the defense against such, and mostly to the women. But even if someone exceled in the technique of KSR it is unlikely that anyone would have interfered, especially Kano. I do think the leaders of honbu TSKSR would have been respected well-enough to not intervene and rank people with their technique and call it KSR. Even when Funakoshi taught there, the ranks were from him, not from the Kodokan (The Kodokan either gave or sold the old Kodokan bldg. to Shotokan and Funakoshi). While other martial arts are still taught even today at the Judo Institute, they are all from different schools and do their own grading. The jo is still a popular weapon to study along with judo.

Consider too, that hiding of someone's rank is becoming the norm these days and it hasn't gone past unseeing eyes there, either, I'm sure. After 5-dan, the upper ranks slow to a crawl. Sometimes, though you can't ignore the facts. One would be Yasuhiro Yamashita who was still young and competing well at 6-dan. But TP Legget, who was a Kodokan 6-dan for more years than I've been alive, never did get there, and it was an insult not to recognize his contributions to judo (and I've been alive a long time).

Again, nothing is so specific in [Kodokan] judo to have expectations of anything. Probably the only constant at the Kodokan is that everyone writes their dan-i grade when writing email or on paper. That became pretty common early on.


Mark

"If I were twenty years younger I could beat those guys."- Hank Ogawa commenting while watching the Canadian Judo Team on TV. He was 85 at the time, probably about two years ago.:p

Phil Farmer
28th October 2002, 14:30
I would like very much to comment on this issue. The mention of dan ranks in association with Minoru Mochizuki was done on only two occaisions that I am aware of, both of them for video tapes. One set of tapes is specific for Yoseikan as training film and the other was at a demonstration honoring Mochizuki Sensei in the early 90's.

Mochizuki Sensei was sent by Kano to study Aikido with Ueshiba directly and another person was sent with him. Mochizuki was, at that time a highly ranked judoka and his 8th dan is official from the Kodokan. He was uchi deshi to Mifune (10th Dan)for a period of time. Our reversals in Yoseikan come from much that Mifune Sensei taught. He was also a direct student of Funikoshi and received a 5th dan rank in Shotokan. He has rank in daito ryu, though I am unaware of the actual rank or description. I do know that he was often called to help correct technique by the daito ryu and one daito ryu person in Tokyo was at the 1992 Friendship demonstration where Mochizuki Sensei actually scolded them for some of their techniques and attacks as being insincere. It takes a highly respected person to get away with that.

The 10th dan in aikido was an award by IMAF that Mochizuki Sensei only accepted with the specific permission of then Dosshu, Kissomoru (sp.)Ueshiba and the entire family. The Katori Shinto Ryu is indeed an adapted version and any rank Mochizuki would have received in the style would have probably come from his good friend, Sugino Sensei, who was a prominent figure in the program that honored Mochizuki Sensei.

You will forgive me if I seem a bit sensitive to this but I am one of those folks on this site who is always on the lookout for fakes and frauds. I want everyone to question but I would prefer, as a scientist, to have people do their homework. In the case of Mochizuki Sensei, he has never mentioned or made any issue of his talents and abilities. He studied with Ueshiba until 1931, at which time he was ill and also concerned that Ueshiba was losing the martial aspects of the aikijutsu, later aikido, and so began his own style, Yoseikan. In all lineage of aikido, Yoseikan is clearly mentioned as one of the harder styles, along with Yoshinkan.

There are additional rankings for Mochizuki in gokyu shin ryu (sp)jiujutsu and jojutsu, among others. The teacher of the gokyu shin ryu wanted Mochizuki to marry his daughter (as did Ueshiba want him to marry his own daughter)but he refused and the style passed out of existence except where it is used in Yoseikan primarily in our sacrifice throws (sutemi). O Sensei is still alive and lives with his son Hiroo Mochizuki in France. In Europe, Mochizuki Sensei is considered the father of judo and aikido. In 1951 he was sent to teach judo in Europe and asked Ueshiba if he could also teach Aikido, to which Ueshiba said yes. The Yoseikan style includes strong elements of shotokan, judo, aikido, and Mochizuki's brand of katori shinto ryu. The KSR differences are obvious but not significant. In Japan, Minoru Mochizuki is considered to be a national treasure and has been honored as such. He has made few claims about himself and let his talent talk for him. Just two years ago, at age 93, he walked out on the mat in France and demonstrated technique and his grandson tells me that he (the grandson)still cant touch him with a padded bokken, while O Sensei is seated in his wheel chair.

I hope this helps to clear up questions and misconceptions. Several of our websites around the world give history on Mochizuki Sensei and his son. Also, Stanley Pranin's book about Aikido Masters has a good deal of this history.

Jim London
29th October 2002, 01:17
Hello Phil,

Thank you for that.

Just to clarify for you, I was the one that brought up Mochizuki sensei originally on another thread as a legitimate example of someone who has demonstrated a great deal of ability in more than one art. Someone had asserted that this was not possible, and having once seen a Yoseikan demonstration in Eastern Ontario, I new of his abilities. I do not want to disrespect Mochizuki sensei in any way.

I did want to know the full extent of his training, so I brought it over to the Gendai forum.

From everything I have heard of him and seen of his students, he is the best.

Jim London.

Phil Farmer
29th October 2002, 21:19
Jim,

Thank you for mentioning Mochizuki Sensei. I do not want to seem rude or upset, that was not my intent, but it is so hard to communicate emotion in email. I appreciate your effort and sincerity about our founder. I really think we should always question, even if it means questioning our truly great artists. They usually have no ego involved and are not offended. I have seen so many people who present themselves as this or that and we have exposed a number of them in the Baffling and Bad Budo sites. I am glad you were able to see Yoseikan demonstrated. We are a small organization here in the U.S. and do not get the exposure we should. I am working to get more of our dojo to demonstrate what we do. We have a comprehensive and powerful art and I wish more people could see it. Currently, with dojo in Pennsylvania, Alabama, and Texas it is hard to get seen. Oh well, it isn't about the exposure, none of our instructors do it as a living.

MarkF
30th October 2002, 11:26
Just to clarify what I meant concerning Mochizuki and an 8-dan from the Kodokan while Kano was still living: That is the only thing I question concerning his judo license, that it was given at the time Kano was still living (the 8-dan not other grade) or concerning himself with the activities of the Kodokan by then, I never meant to imply that he didn't receive 8-dan from the Kodokan, I am reasonably sure it was after the death of Kano. The others who received dan license from Kano himself would have been awarded or given in foreign countries at that time, as Kano traveled so much of the time.

For example, Kenneth Kuniyuki, who is 93 years old, received a sandan license in Kodokan Judo from Kano when the latter was visiting the old Seattle Judo Dojo. But the certificate itself was mailed to Mr. Kuniyuki from Japan at a later date. I see something like that regarding Mr. Mochizuki at some point. It may be unusual for some to receive a Kodokan ranking while at another location, but even today, it is still done.

He was known by some to be somewhat of a character as he insisted on learning everything available, and for other reasons, as I've read. As Funakoshi Gichin probably first taught his karate at the Kodokan when he went North to the mainland, it was likely Mochizuki received it there, or when the old Kodokan bldg. was given to Funakoshi and Shotokan karate.

The statements from some that he could not have done all that, particularly putting together his own style, doesn't hold water. How does one account for all those who began their own style[s] such as Kano, Funakoshi, or Uyeshiba? They also did much of the same thing. There aren't many who could do that, but every rule has their exceptions. I wasn't questioning aikido, I thought Yoseikan to differ so much that it would be very limiting to call it aikido, and besides, what is wrong with the name of the school being called, simply, Yoseikan?

BTW: Many consider Mikonosuke Kawaishi to be the father of Judo in France today. Some even say it is another style other than Kodokan and separate them into Kano Judo and Kawaishi Judo. I heard that when I was living in Mexico for a time.

Anyway, I apologize if there was any misunderstanding of my words. It certainly wasn't intentional.:confused:


Mark