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Lens
21st October 2002, 14:09
Hi all,
Havent been much around lately just setteled in from my honey moon.

I found a site of a Ju-Jitsu Association in Malta. Puzled me a bit because it says that the founder of the organization is a 5th Dan Ju-Jitsu who is a priest (Reverent) and Oboosan Budist Priest at the same time!

Maybe I could be wrong so could you help me out in some questions?

Isin't Rev. ment to mean Reverent meaning Chatolic Priest?
and Isin't Oboosan ment to mean a Budist priest in Japanese?

Hey, have you ever heard about Priests teaching Ju-Jitsu.

Does sound strange but i wont rule it out.

Help me get out of this maze.

the site is www.geocities.com/samuraimlt

the guy could very well be ok, maybe im just not understanding what he is exectly. If this is the case. sorry.

Thanks,
Lens

Lens
21st October 2002, 17:33
Hey Guys,
This site that i recently gave you and another Ju-Jitsu site in Malta are having club wars!!!!

Pinpointing to eachother with statments.

For example: www.geocities.com/samuraimlt/instruct.html
were it say "N.B note that there are some clubs"......read that paragraph in the lower part of the document.

They reply: www.welcome.to/dragonsdenmalta click on the logo and enter and go to 'about us' and then 'sensei christian and sensei roderik bajada' and read the first paragraphs were they say they started from scratch!

Then there is www.geocities.com/samuraimlt/founder.html where it says all certificates recognized world wide even in japan.

they reply: www.welcome.to/dragonsdenmalta click on the logo and enter then go to the main page below and see 'note:' "Due to a false CV (about false certificates of Japan)..."

Too complicated......
who shall i belive? anyone knows anything about any of these two associations?
Regards

hyaku
22nd October 2002, 00:52
Originally posted by Lens
Hi all,
Havent been much around lately just setteled in from my honey moon.

I found a site of a Ju-Jitsu Association in Malta. Puzled me a bit because it says that the founder of the organization is a 5th Dan Ju-Jitsu who is a priest (Reverent) and Oboosan Budist Priest at the same time!

Maybe I could be wrong so could you help me out in some questions?

Hey, have you ever heard about Priests teaching Ju-Jitsu.

Does sound strange but i wont rule it out.

Help me get out of this maze.

Thanks,
Lens
.........
Working for a Buddhist sect perhaps I can answer.

Obosan is the general Japanese term for a Buddhist priest.

However priests in Buddhist communities outside Japan are generally referred to as Reverend.

There should not be anything strange about a priest doing Budo.

All my close friends and associates are priests and I have been taking one of them to Kenjutsu practice. He is quick to point out that Budo is now a peaceful means of self examination.

Have not read the liked pages yet but I should be quick to point out that the practice of Budo does not entitle one to a Buddhist title. Already some people seem to think that it sometimes gives then a University educators qualification.

Even more to the point is you dont go around calling yourself Sensei..... a title which is tagged on to the end of a name not the start. Priests I know that are not educators are called "San"

Hyakutake Colin

22nd October 2002, 01:04
Originally posted by Lens
Hi all,
Havent been much around lately just setteled in from my honey moon.

I found a site of a Ju-Jitsu Association in Malta. Puzled me a bit because it says that the founder of the organization is a 5th Dan Ju-Jitsu who is a priest (Reverent) and Oboosan Budist Priest at the same time!

Maybe I could be wrong so could you help me out in some questions?

Isin't Rev. ment to mean Reverent meaning Chatolic Priest?
and Isin't Oboosan ment to mean a Budist priest in Japanese?

Hey, have you ever heard about Priests teaching Ju-Jitsu.

Does sound strange but i wont rule it out.

Help me get out of this maze.

the site is www.geocities.com/samuraimlt

the guy could very well be ok, maybe im just not understanding what he is exectly. If this is the case. sorry.

Thanks,
Lens

My father in law is a Buddhist priest here in Japan and has Rev. xxxxxxxxx on his business cards in English.
Many years ago if you were a priest in certain sects you were not allowed to marry and therefore were a "real" priest as in the Catholic sense. Now almost all sects in Japan allow their priest to marry (makes more parishioners for the future ;) ) so I think the use of Rev. is better since it is more like a Protestant or Baptist situation.

Also of note is that my father in law is something like the 26th generation Priest/Rev. of their temple. So his family has been at it a while........their temple used to be known for a spear style (Yari) and did battle with Nobunaga many years ago, however they no longer teach it.

22nd October 2002, 01:13
Originally posted by hyaku

Even more to the point is you dont go around calling yourself Sensei..... a title which is tagged on to the end of a name not the start. Priests I know that are not educators are called "San"


Kind of sort of..................sensei is often used for people that don't teach anything and is used out of respect.
For example lawmakers in the Japanese Gov. are often refereed to as sensei, usually when being spoken to face to face and not through the media......lawyers are also refereed to as sensei.

hyaku
22nd October 2002, 01:22
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot


Kind of sort of..................sensei is often used for people that don't teach anything and is used out of respect.
For example lawmakers in the Japanese Gov. are often refereed to as sensei, usually when being spoken to face to face and not through the media......lawyers are also refereed to as sensei.
..........

And the Dentists.

What surprises me though is Doctors being called San outside outside the hospital.

Hyakutake Colin

22nd October 2002, 01:25
Originally posted by hyaku
What surprises me though is Doctors being called San outside outside the hospital.

Hyakutake Colin


I have been to some Japanese Doctors I wouldn't call sensei or san inside the hospital or anywhere else for that matter.........

SBreheney
22nd October 2002, 01:28
I am a Zen Buddhist priest affiliated with Hazy Moon Zen Center/Kounji in Los Angeles (in the lineage of the late Hakuyu Taizan Maezumi Roshi), and although it doesn't seem to be an ironclad rule our priests tend to use "Reverend" when being referred to officially, such as on business cards, web sites, etc. On the other hand, when addressing each other we use our Dharma names. I use "Rev." on my business cards, but for purposes of the zazen group I lead here in Central California, I encourage folks to call me whatever they feel comfortable with, my given name or my Dharma name, doesn't matter to me. Other Zen Buddhist lineages here in the US follow their own practices, some more formal and others less so, some using their Dharma names and others not. In other words, YMMV. :)

Slightly Off-Topic Sidebar Re: the Use of "Reverend": Most style manuals I've seen use it to refer to clergymen of whatever affiliation, properly in the form of
"The Reverend xxxx" (italics mine). It isn't properly used as a salutation; instead, one uses "Father," "Mister," "Doctor," "Pastor," etc. according to affiliation.

hyaku
22nd October 2002, 01:37
Nice to see your post Mr. Breheney

I am with Jodo Shinshu

Yoroshiku Onegai Itashimasu

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

SBreheney
22nd October 2002, 02:24
Hyaku-san,

Kochira koso douzo yoroshiku.

Lens
22nd October 2002, 11:22
Thanks Budo friends,
So he is a budist priest teaching Martial Arts in Malta. Its good to learn it exists. Never tought of it before.

What about the statements about false CV and Oboosan saying that the other clubs are not doing Ju-Jitsu? and the other association saying about Nippon Dai Budo Kai not Being Dai Nippon Butoku Kai and that he is not recognized in Japan like he says he is.

The statement on the later site changed. There was NOTICE: DUE TO A FALSE QUALIFICATION STATING THAT CERTIFICATES ARE RECOGNIED WORLD WIDE EVEN IN JAPAN. something like that. but they removed it. but it was there.

I heard something about 'Nippon Dai Budo Kai as an organiation in UK and a small one that says we are the governing body of Ju-jitsu, created to con people about it being Dai Nippon Butoku Kai (The Japanese organiation)' and The Obossan is certified by Nippon Dai while the brothers are qualified by Dai Nippon the Japanese one. This is always from what i can understand.

Which do you thing is the organiation with the actual correct qualifications?

22nd October 2002, 11:51
To be brutally honest..........the Dai Nippon Butokukai is not all it's cracked up to be.
It's a mere shadow of what it's pre war self...........before it was run by the Ultra Right of Japan.......much like the National Front in France or the Neo Nazi Party.
Not exactly groups I would want to belong to. Even today it still has some old boys that hang on to those ideals.
Some foreigners think it is some sort of privilage to be a member of the Butokukai and throw the name around to sound impressive. There are other more prestigeous Koryu Organizations in Japan that earn more respect than the Butokukai...........

Also, the Butokukai has 2 divisions........the Japanese and the International. You must live in Japan to belong to the Japanese division, outside of Japan is headed by a guy named Yamada I believe.

SBreheney
22nd October 2002, 15:23
Follow the link to an earlier thread:

Dai Nippon Butokukai (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11910&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

mawriz
22nd October 2002, 20:29
Hey Lens,
I have not heard anything about any problem with the Dragon's Den. I can tell you that those brothers are excellent and very well behaved but the problem is between Bushido Malta and Samurai Ju-jitsu. Check out http://www.geocities.com/bjjamalta/bjjaie4.html were it says by the name 'including the samurai jujitsu club'.
Mawriz:D

Lens
23rd October 2002, 08:51
“To be brutally honest..........the Dai Nippon Butokukai is not all it's cracked up to be.”

This is what sounds crack to me.

Thanks SBreheney for bringing my old thread to point.

That thread resulted in some ppl bashing DNBK and when looking about these people it results that they were kicked out of DNBK for reasons I don’t know. Which is a good reason to bash the org. Also some very famous Martial Artists which died a couple of years ago were also kicked out. I won’t mention names. But you would know who some of them are when you see their students still using a modified version of DNBK badge, which I believe is illegal. That is one reason why this type off talk about DNBK I see as crack and nothing but bashing set off words.

Maybe DNBK isn’t what it used to be before ww2 but it still is DNBK. Un like you said it seems very respected world wide not just Japan.
You wouldent want to belong to DNBK? probably because you don't belong.

Many people that I met say they are dnbk but you wouldn’t find them on the list of DNBK legitimate members. Maybe that’s the problem of being prestigious.

The Hanshi board has some very reputable martial artists sitting on it. All being 8th dan and above in various Budo Arts and many in their 70s and 80s with loads of experience. Some of these are straight students of Kano, morihei and others who lived more at their sensei’s house/dojo rather than their own. Hamada wich you named Yamada is one such person having trained under such people one being the late successor of the original style of Jo and which I believe carries a 300 year old Jo stick that belonged to the founder. All this you will find in Koryu books and also modern martial arts dictionaries.

So enough said about DNBK. It’s quite prestigious and more than many of us can personally come close too. As to foreigners saying it’s an honor to be recognized by such organization,….personally I would be honored if I was. My biggest disappointment is that I never continued any style I grabbed and thus never had any real success in Martial Arts.

I DON’T WHANT THIS THREAD BECOMING ANOTHER BASHING THREAD OF FAMOUS ORGANIZATIONS. SO ENOUHG SAID ABOUT DNBK.

My primarily questions were: Oboosan? (which was answered thank you). And about these two associations, now three? Thanks Mawriz.

But is he a budist priest or just a guy that made up a title for him self?

Try to stick to the subject.

Regards,
Lens

23rd October 2002, 09:07
Originally posted by Lens
That thread resulted in some ppl bashing DNBK and when looking about these people it results that they were kicked out of DNBK for reasons I don’t know.

Never been a member. No need.



Originally posted by Lens
Maybe DNBK isn’t what it used to be before ww2 but it still is DNBK.

Which is what? A high class "dan factory" run by the Ultra Right of Japan............wow :rolleyes: where do I sign up?




Originally posted by Lens
Un like you said it seems very respected world wide not just Japan.

It is more respected outside Japan than inside..............for the main reason it is hardly even known in Japan and the few that know of it have not given it glowing reports.



Originally posted by Lens
You wouldent want to belong to DNBK? probably because you don't belong.

No that's not it at all. I have no NEED to belong. What could I possible get from it that I don't get now....................... 0


Originally posted by Lens
...............I believe carries a 300 year old Jo stick that belonged to the founder. All this you will find in Koryu books and also modern martial arts dictionaries..

How useless unless you are running a museum.


Originally posted by Lens
So enough said about DNBK. It’s quite prestigious and more than many of us can personally come close too.

So you say ................Tell ya what come over to Japan and ask around about it..............then maybe you won't think you know so much.

hyaku
23rd October 2002, 14:47
Originally posted by Lens

Maybe DNBK isn’t what it used to be before ww2 but it still is DNBK. Unlike you said it seems very respected world wide not just Japan.
..
It is my understanding that the new DBNK was formed taking on the name of an association that was no longer in existance namely the original DBNK. This information is from former members of the original DBNK.

There was a situation where a foreign group I know wished to join a Japanese Association and were thinking of joining. This resulted in frantic calls and letters from teachers of other more well know associations with facts about the origins or should I say lack of origin of the present DBNK. It was stated that the present group was ok... but there was better.

A 6th kyu who decided to go it alone and join anyway became shodan over night
.........
So enough said about DNBK. It’s quite prestigious and more than many of us can personally come close too. As to foreigners saying it’s an honor to be recognized by such organization,….personally I would be honored if I was.
...
I was approached some years ago and asked if I would join. Prestige was mentioned. The Japanese membership fee was prestigious to say the least. There was also talk of Intanashionaru connections... trips to foreign countries, sounded to me a bit like a Japanese Budo Sensei's tour club. Needless to say I declined.

Im not flaming either. Just adding some information I have.

Hyakutake Colin

23rd October 2002, 14:55
Originally posted by hyaku

A 6th kyu who decided to go it alone and join anyway became shodan over night


Cracky! 6th kyu to shodan in one go! Wonder what they would sell me?

mawriz
23rd October 2002, 17:54
Lens

Now you have confused me, is he a Catholic Reverend or a Buddhist priest, known all over the world and in Japan, why and in Japan, is Japan not part of the world? Is it a title he invented? or he got this title from Jikishin U.K. or Nippon Dai Budo Kai. U.K. I mean if he got this official Title you can not blame him can you? I have heard of a lot people talking and writing down titles like no body is watching or every body believes them, like Professor, Master, Kancho, 11,12,13,14 Dan, name it and it is there.

Regarding Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, I do not think that they are Bashing DNBK, but they are crying and writhing with jealousy, DNBK, looks like it has no space for Idiots. I have read a lot about grate names in the history of martial arts like Jigaro Kano , Morihei Ueshiba, etc and they were all members of DNBK.

Most of what you call Bashing comes out of people who have a brain as big as a chicken’s brain. Well, the fox said that the grapes are sour, just because he could not reach them.

I also wish to be a member, but it does not seem to be that easy to be a member and recognized by such a serious Society.

By the way, I will search for the Rank of a Pope, I should find it with the way Titles are going in our Western World.

Lens
23rd October 2002, 18:14
“come to Japan……………………..”

Don’t need to because I can just sit at home and read the websites of the experiences of those that already went and did what you invited me to do.

Now, about DNBK being more outside Japan rather than in.

Read on the DNBK site the report of the last event they had.

Total of 650 yudansha, only 220 are foriners 430 are Japanese. So is it still more outside or inside Japan? Yet these are only the black belts and the ones that could attend. Wonder how many more kyu there are and how many coulden’t make it.
Were is it more respected now?

If people don’t know about it than that’s their own problem because they don’t look they just sit at their own halls covered by the 4 walls.

47 Hanshi, 78 Kyoshi, 125 Renshi. Looking at the first set of numbers this would result in more Japanese than foriners in this set of numbers still.

Now, how many black belts does your org get in one single event?

This would take forever.
STICK TO THE SUBJECT OR IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT DNBK THEN START YOUR OWN THREAD AND DON’T CONTAMINATE MINE.

IL MAKE IT A POINT TO IGNORE YOU IF YOU DON’T TALK ABOUT THE SUBJECT..

You reply what ever you want because DNBK is DNBK and flashy words to make people look stupid like ‘good for the musium’ certanly don’t impress me.

Mawriz, thanks…..i know what you mean perfectly clear.

------- I REST MY DNBK SUBJECT HERE -----

Lens
23rd October 2002, 19:50
:D
Hyaku,

I forgot....

I can make up a story in 5 seconds.... and I guarantee you that it would be more credible then yours.

PS: you didin't even know that its Dai Nippon Butoku Kai rather than Dai Butoku Nippon Kai! DNBK not DBNK that you spelled incorectly several times.!

OVER AND OUT.

23rd October 2002, 22:52
Originally posted by mawriz
Lens

Now you have confused me, is he a Catholic Reverend or a Buddhist priest, known all over the world and in Japan, why and in Japan, is Japan not part of the world? Is it a title he invented? or he got this title from Jikishin U.K. or Nippon Dai Budo Kai. U.K. I mean if he got this official Title you can not blame him can you? I have heard of a lot people talking and writing down titles like no body is watching or every body believes them, like Professor, Master, Kancho, 11,12,13,14 Dan, name it and it is there.

Regarding Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, I do not think that they are Bashing DNBK, but they are crying and writhing with jealousy, DNBK, looks like it has no space for Idiots. I have read a lot about grate names in the history of martial arts like Jigaro Kano , Morihei Ueshiba, etc and they were all members of DNBK.

Most of what you call Bashing comes out of people who have a brain as big as a chicken’s brain. Well, the fox said that the grapes are sour, just because he could not reach them.

I also wish to be a member, but it does not seem to be that easy to be a member and recognized by such a serious Society.

By the way, I will search for the Rank of a Pope, I should find it with the way Titles are going in our Western World.

Re-read the rules for E-Budo.
Sign your full name when posting.

23rd October 2002, 23:08
Originally posted by Lens
:D
Hyaku,

PS: you didin't even know that its Dai Nippon Butoku Kai rather than Dai Butoku Nippon Kai! DNBK not DBNK that you spelled incorectly several times.!
OVER AND OUT.

I guess we will have to take Hyaku out and have him shot for a spelling mistake. :rolleyes:



Originally posted by Lens
“come to Japan……………………..”

Don’t need to because I can just sit at home and read the websites of the experiences of those that already went and did what you invited me to do.

Oh yes, the Internet.......nothing but 100% Truth on it. :rolleyes:
I can sit here and tell you what kamaboko tastes like but you still won't know unless you actually taste it for yourself.

I really love "armchair sensei" the sit there and tell or try discuss things that happen in this country with me and others that are actually here and have had personal experiences to back up what we say....................... :laugh:

hyaku
24th October 2002, 01:00
Originally posted by Lens
[B]:D
Hyaku,

I forgot....

I can make up a story in 5 seconds.... and I guarantee you that it would be more credible then yours.
......

It was not a story. Its fact handed down in a rather well known Menkyo Kaidens letter to me. That's why I posted.

They have moved on from Post WW2 ideals and would rather not be associated with it.

Looks like I should get some new reading glasses. DBNK DNKB whatever. The NBC is a TV station here but no doubt there is a National Budo Council somewhere. Then again we all make mistakes dont we? my spelling of the word foriners is a little different.

.......

Total of 650 yudansha, only 220 are foriners 430 are Japanese.

My students over the years amount to more than that. If they all joined the DNBK we could boost the membership and make it more prestigious
............
Now, how many black belts does your org get in one single event?

Localy well over a thousand a year. Nationaly there are about 55,000 members most of them Yudansha.

Hyakutake Colin

24th October 2002, 01:06
Originally posted by hyaku

Localy well over a thousand a year. Nationaly there are about 55,000 members most of them Yudansha.
Hyakutake Colin


I am wondering out of those 55,000 members what percentage are foriners ;) ?

Is it almost 1/3 foriners as in the case of the DNBK (Dai Nippon Butokukai)?

Neil Hawkins
24th October 2002, 04:20
This is degenerating rapidly. We have walked these paths before and I see no need to do it again. I am closing the thread.

Please remember that we are primarily here to discuss the technical and historical aspects of jujutsu.

Regards

Neil