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Baio
21st October 2002, 20:59
I found this image somewhere and this looks like a very mean version of a kyoketsu shoge anyone know the specific name for it?

BigJon
21st October 2002, 21:01
Maybe "battlefield" shoge?

Jon Gillespie

Judokax8
21st October 2002, 22:22
It resembles a kusarigama, only the balde would be sickle shaped and the chain could be concealed in the handle.

Peace
Dennis

Baio
21st October 2002, 22:26
Originally posted by Judokax8
It resembles a kusarigama, only the balde would be sickle shaped and the chain could be concealed in the handle.

Peace
Dennis

actually i'm sure it's a type of shoge although the fundo is like a kusari-gama's only this one is mace-like so i'm sure it's a variation of the kyoketsushoge i ws just looking for the name

Soulend
22nd October 2002, 09:18
I want one.

Karyu
23rd October 2002, 06:57
This is a battlefield weapon i've not seen before, but looks to be something from the Sengoku Jidai. The rope and ring have been substituted by a chain and flail, thereby putting the emphasis on doing hardcore damage rather than the entrapping/knotting/tying-up your opponent that the shoge is known for. Notice the longer length of the blades and the thickness of the chain.

The flail is very interesting because it, along with the mace, is a smashing weapon that was widely used in Europe to break through armor, but rarely used in Japan (due to lighter armor and emphasis on cutting weapons). Against clothing, a cutting or stabbing weapon is preferable but the purpose of the flail is to bash an armored opponent, so this is not an Edo-era weapon. I would have to say that this weapon is designed to be used by a lightly-armored person to smash heavier armor and take down calvalry. You can also see a very interesting battlefield shinobi-zue in one of Sensei's books.

PwarYuex
1st November 2002, 10:31
That is very cool!
I've very rarely come across a Japanese mace! (I think I've only heard of a few of them)
As the previous poster said, it seems the chain and ring of the more normal version has been replaced with a mace....
Wbere did you get the picture? The site you got it off might have an idea.

Pwar

Baio
1st November 2002, 10:33
i found it one a google image search. i'll see if i can find the site again.

Eric Baluja
1st November 2002, 12:25
Originally posted by Karyu
This is a battlefield weapon....from the Sengoku Jidai....Against clothing, a cutting or stabbing weapon is preferable but the purpose of the flail is to bash an armored opponent, so this is not an Edo-era weapon. I would have to say that this weapon is designed to be used by a lightly-armored person to smash heavier armor and take down calvalry. Respectfully, please take a look at the articles on chigiriki and kusarigama in Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions by Ellis Amdur.


There are, however, no records of any sort of flail used before the Edo period (1603-1867). [from "Chigiriki: The Japanese Flail"]
There are no records of the kusarigama being used in battle. This should not be surprising. Whirling a long weighted chain would be more a threat to one's own compatriots than to any enemies, and the thought of a squad of kusarigama fighters is more an image of comedy than valor...Finally, the kusarigama is a weapon that is primarily useful against the sword. It is far less effective against any long weapon, be it spear, naginata or bo. To enter the battlefield with a weapon ineffective against the most commonly used weapons would make little sense. [from "Kusarigama: The Chain-and-Sickle"] I can see how the size and nature of the weight and sickle-blade in the above photo might make one think otherwise (the subject of Mr. Amdur's essay is the more common, 'lighter' version of the kusarigama). However, it's still difficult to imagine how even this weapon, with its swinging, weighted chain, would fare against a sea of 6+ battlefield bo, 7+ naginata or 8+ yari while in a melee.

Not that I would know, I wasn't there! But I rely on the research of those who do know.

tenchijin2
1st November 2002, 16:40
That's just a kyoketsu shoge of large proportion. I remember reading that the shoge was in fact made from the blade of a kamayari. The chain and fundo seems like just one of Hatsumi sensei's clever variations.

In any case it is true, to the best of my research (certainly not as good as Mr. Amdur's), that chain weapons weren't used until edojidai. There is a famous account of musashi fighting a guy who weilded a kusarigama. Also, the castle guards apparently used manriki kusari or kusari fundo as it was a big no-no to spill blood inside the castle grounds.

PwarYuex
2nd November 2002, 07:29
Originally posted by tenchijin2
The chain and fundo seems like just one of Hatsumi sensei's clever variations.

Yeh, you've gotta hand it to him; like the katana where the tsuka pulls off and reveals a blade :P

mrmonkey
6th November 2002, 02:16
Yes, yes, very cool, and behind our own Soke of the 9 traditions and one umbrella training method of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is an even more powerful weapon.

The Sakuragi Temple Donations Chest!

Hoshi_Ryu
6th November 2002, 15:32
It would be cool to have a Kyoketsu jutte(just an idea that popped in my head).

BigJon
6th November 2002, 20:14
Would that be like a manriki-fundo?


Jon Gillespie

tenchijin2
6th November 2002, 22:13
Actually a couple years back, Hatsumisensei was selling these jutte that had, concealed in the main shaft, a chain. Thetip of the jutte could be pulled off and the chain used in the fashion of a kusari fundo but longer.