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Bustillo, A.
21st October 2002, 22:27
I think we need a change of pace from the political arguments and jabs.

I would like to mention a new glove on the market called Ouano. I found them to be excellent for hitting the bag, pads, sparring and ground & pound.

In the past I have used the Fairtex grappling glove and the Chuck Norris grappling glove. I wouldn't recommend the Fairtex but the Chuck Norris glove was excellent.

It would be of interest to know which glove do most schools use for training? Do you use one glove or different gloves for different types of training?

Rogier
22nd October 2002, 07:11
do you have a link to a website?

Bustillo, A.
22nd October 2002, 10:55
Originally posted by Rogier
do you have a link to a website?

Try,

www.ouano.com

They have three gloves listed. The one I mention is first on the list.

hector gomez
22nd October 2002, 22:22
Antonio,

I own the early norris model grappling gloves very similar to the harrinberg model glove,the thing I noticed about training with 4 oz grappling gloves is that the striking should definitely be controlled to the head.

The advantages of these types of gloves are a)you can combine striking along with takedowns and ground grappling b)they are not bulky like boxing gloves so it gives you a more natural feel for grappling.

The only drawback is you can't bang like you can with boxing gloves.
Gloves in the 4 to 6 ounce category probably require some sort of bogu head gear in order to train headshots without injury
to the head.

Traditional boxing headgear would not protect against a 4 or 6 ounce glove the way bogugear does,but anytype of headgear would be bulky on the ground in a grappling situation anyway.


I personaly like training with controlled headshots while wearing grappling gloves therefore the ground aspect becomes more realistic without the bulky headgear.

If I really want to train hard contact with headshots then training with boxing gloves and boxing headgear is the way to go for me.


Hector Gomez

n2shotokai
23rd October 2002, 13:16
I am curious as to which gloves people use for what purposes.

Although we never use gloves for kumite, we do have a new heavy bag that is hard as a rock. I have always felt a good way to invite early arthritis is to bang away at an object with your knuckles.

Contemplating bag gloves,
Steve Beale

hector gomez
23rd October 2002, 15:08
Hi steve,

I can really only speak for myself and the way I like to train,as I realize alot of practicioners on this forum have their own methods,formulas and theories on training.

If one is doing kumite with no gloves at all,I would imagin that the head shots are being controled of pulled upon impact.I cannot conceive
people following thru with headshots and no gloves.

I decided a long time ago that I did not want to practice controlling or pulling any punches or kicks as this leads to a unrealistic view of what really transpires in a continuos contact fight.


Controlling a punch never seemed practical to me as both the attacker and the defender tend to develop a false sense of who is really getting the upper hand in combat along with bad habbits that start being developed by both practicioners.

Most of the time training without gloves equals controlled headshots and rightfuly so because of possible injury but this leads to stopping any continuation of combination attacks for fear of following thru so training becomes similar to a tournament were fighters train like roosters in a cock fight loading their weopons & coiling their springs while projecting foward only to stop after the initial attack.This leads to a real big dilema the continuation after the first attack which is very critical in a fight becomes nonexistent.



It's not so much that I don't understand the concept of kime(focus)along with the damage that a well placed shot can have on an opponent.
The kime concept is a great theory but in reality it is not a high percentage reality in a contact fight that is not being prematurely stopped for unrealistic acknwoledegements.


Hector Gomez

hector gomez
23rd October 2002, 15:39
Sorry steve,

I just had a relapse there and got sidetracked,anyway bag gloves would be a great idea for hitting the heavy bag.

To glove or not to glove,I would also like to hear the pro or cons for both methods of training.

Hector Gomez

n2shotokai
23rd October 2002, 21:24
Any recommendations brand / model for bag gloves.

We do not use gloves for kumite as we focus on control. Close, touch, tap, 1/4" punch or perhaps ........ To each their own philosophy. We spend considerable training time developing ki / power. We do not participate in sport karate. I would not dream of hitting someone in kumite with gloves, padding etc. I am not saying one is better, only a different approach / philosophy.

Steve Beale

elara
23rd October 2002, 21:52
My school as a group:
During sparring (free, 1,3,5-step, etc), We tend not to use gloves, opting for controlled shots. On the striking equipment (bags, pads, makiwara) we almost never use gloves.
Recently we have been looking into sweeps a bit more and have used shin pads (sweeper - pad on shin, receiver - pad on calf) on some distancing/control exercises.
That's in class at least - I don't know what people do on their own...

On my own:
I don't often go 'all out' on another body - about once a year w/a friend (opinions - is this too little? too much?). Depending on the rules we're using, we'll either use some combination of 16oz gloves + shin pads or no pads at all, ie:
boxing - gloves
kickboxing - gloves + shin pads
standing randori - no pads
grappling - no pads
mixed - gloves + shin pads


All with mouthpieces.

I may have to go out and get a pair of those light-weight gloves Hector mentioned.

Cheers

CEB
23rd October 2002, 22:21
Originally posted by Bustillo, A.
...
It would be of interest to know which glove do most schools use for training? Do you use one glove or different gloves for different types of training?

We use White cotton cloth marshmellow lookin' hand pads. They provide some fist protection and still allow you to grab your partner. Best part is I think we get them from Century for about 5 bucks a pair.

My heavy bag gloves are Everlast. They are a pretty red color and cost less around $20 I think , maybe $25. They work well enough for me and are available at local sporting good stores. I hit the bag with and without gloves. I get a better workout (more sweat) with gloves than I do without. Sometimes I hit a water filled bag. The gloves don't seem necessary at all. The bag as a soft as a baby's bottom and the surface is kind to the hands but I still feel like I get a better workout with the big red bag gloves. I don't know exactly why, I don't think about it I just do it. I've never had boxing lessons I probably learned more boxing talking to Hector and Antonio on the net than anywhere else. Personally I don't really like the water bag. I don't know why I guess I am old fashioned.

My bags at home are 1) an old Everlast canvas bag. Gloves are good if you are going to hit it a long time because the canvas is rough on the skin, especially beautiful smooth delicate skin like mine. :) 2) a vinyl bag which is supposed to be an 80 lbs bag but mine is full of shelled corn so it is pretty heavy.

tamashi
24th October 2002, 14:11
Anyone deal with these guys?
http://www.immortal-usa.com/static/immortal_intro.html

they have all leather gear, and decent prices.

I have only bought Thai Pads from them, but they were good.

they have a page full of gloves as well.

regards,

Bustillo, A.
24th October 2002, 15:14
Pulling punches and kicks all the time is counterproductive. It creates bad habits. I agree what Hector G. that it gives a false sense of security. Furthermore, this has nothing to do with sport or not. It has to do with realistic training methods.

During certain types of deills, I can understand pulled punches without contact. Yet, to step it up you should try and land a few shots to see how well that drill really works.

Controlled punches where you try and hit your partner without trying to lay him out works great too. And this is where the different types of gloves come in to play.

The well-padded boxing gloves allow for more contact, yet it restricts grabbing and other maneuvers.

The thin grappling type gloves, with exposed fingers, like the Ouano, Chuck Norris and the other gloves several of you have mentioned does not restrict the fighters if they decide to incorporate grabbing, pulling with one arm and grappling. However, the impact is tremendous if you unleash hard shots. In this case, headgear with face protection is recommended. And even then, with the thin gloves, you don't need to strike with full force for your partner to feel considerable impact.

In addition, most of the aforementioned exposed finger gloves can be used for bag training. It is personal choice, but on canvas bags I do not use gloves or wraps. Vinyl and leather heavy bags, the main reason I use gloves is because of how slippery it becomes due to sweat.

hector gomez
29th October 2002, 15:10
A big misconception associated with boxing gloves or anytype of contact glove is the all out "let's kill eachother mentality" syndrome.

Contact is part of the game and becoming familiar with some sort of contact goes a long way in helping fighters become acustomed to the realities of contact fighting.

A sparring session is just that,sparring to execute techniques properly with an obvios intent to make contact but even this type of training should not be done with the actual intent of knocking someone out,a good instructor/coach should oversee most of any contact training and never let practicioners sparr with bad intentions or inproper mechanics.

Even thou techniques are being controlled getting use to this actual penetration point upon impact gets the body senses more in tune for the actual shock of contact,something everyone that plans to be involved with anytype of contact fighting should get use too.


Making contact with solid training objects,heavy bags,makiwara,mitts,pads,etc is all fine but making the contact with a live moving target should be a very important part of training even if it is somewhat controlled for safety reasons.

Hector Gomez

Bustillo, A.
31st October 2002, 13:33
[QUOTE]Originally posted by hector gomez
[B]
Contact is part of the game and becoming familiar with some sort of contact goes a long way in helping fighters become acustomed to the realities of contact fighting.

Making contact with solid training objects,heavy bags,makiwara,mitts,pads,etc is all fine but making the contact with a live moving target should be a very important part of training even if it is somewhat controlled for safety reasons.



[A.B. responds,]

Hecor Gomez,

Osu
(as used when we trained Shotokan with Sugimoto.)

CEB
31st October 2002, 16:23
Let say some karate people are considering using boxing style protective gear for the first time. I have my Ringside catalog that Hector told me to get and there are many options when it comes to purchasing this kind of training gear. What would be some general guidelines people would want to follow when it comes to purchasing some this gear?


What size gloves would generally workout best for starters. (14oz., 16oz., 18oz.) ?

Are certain types of headgear better or is anything that is competion approved an adequate provider of protection?

Since karate people going to want to use kicks are the ribs protectors that boxers use for sparring when recovering from injuries adequate protection against kick to the body? In case there are people who want practice body contact who are not used to it. We practice considerable body contact and it isn't much an issue with us. That is how we have always trained, We do try to limit the degree of head contact (accidents happen but they are rare) but the body and upper legs are fair game for anyone 4th kyu or above.( just a general guideline, all other things being equal. For instance I wouldn't thump an 110 lb woman to the body no matter what her rank is because 100 pound weight advantage matters and women are just too fragile for that sort of thing anyway :) ). We don't let beginners kick each other in the legs, just the way it has always been since the dojo started (1967).

Are there any other issues concerning gear that people should consider?

Thanks everyone for the good conversation.

hector gomez
31st October 2002, 18:59
Hi Ed,

I hope I can answer some of your questions,as a rule of thumb,16oz gloves are the standard for all boxers that use gloves for SPARRING.The 18oz gloves are used by large heavywieghts,while the 14oz can be used by the lightweights and below.

"Actual fight gloves for competitions are 8oz for lightweights & 10oz for heavier fighters".

A problem would arise for training, if a big man was wearing smaller gloves say 14oz gloves and making contact to the head,this would not be enough protection for the large weight ratio,likewise if a flyweight or bantanweight fighter was using a bigger glove techniques would get sloppy because of the weight of the glove compared to the boxer weight.

Boxing gloves will normally feel bulky & heavy and weird the first time someone puts them on but thru consistent training you can really get use to them giving you the great benifits of training with contact.

The headguards that you mentioned is also a good topic,the competition headguard are really made for competition they are lighter plus the visibilty is higher,the only drawback is they do not protect like the bulkier training headguards used for training,again if you are a lighter weight fighter you can probably get away with training with a competition head guard.

Ed,as far as rib protection goes most boxers and kickboxers due not use them while they sparr unless they have a rib injury that needs to heal up,that's not to say that the white collar boxer cannot put it on for extra protection.


As far a kicking goes,In kickboxing the fighters try to use their shins more often instead of the instep or the ball of the foot,the reason is simple,if you slam hard and often enough with the instep or ball of your foot,limping will be added to your new arsenal of techniques,seriously speaking we have many soft nerve endings in that part of our feet for a one shot deal in self defense maybe but for continuos contact fighting it is a no no.

The thai boxers use the "teep kick"I believe is the name of their front kicks but it is used more for pushing or a measuring device for the same reasons as mentioned above,due not become a limper in the first 30 seconds of the match.

I would get a good quality shin pad with instep atachment,we sometimes train with kicks to the outside thigh or inner thigh being very careful not to come close to the knees.

Rules for sparring are simple try to match up with fighters close to your same weight,This I realize is not always possible if weight and experience are definitely on your side work more on your defense and lay off the power.A good instructor/coach should always be supervising the action making sure no fighters are breaking the unwritten rules.

Hector Gomez

Ed,I hope that helps some.

Pirahna
1st November 2002, 02:06
Good stuff here guys - myself i use Twins 10oz and grappling gloves (with wrist support) and have found there gloves to be fantastic.


Completely agree with Hector and Antonio about pulling techniques rendering these techniques next to useless. One exercise that i get guys to do who have been doing this type of training and who think that their punching is spot on is as follows:

- 2 person drill with one person holding a medicine ball (medium size - as an alternative those "ball rollers" that are sold as an ab exerciser are excellent for this becuase you have a handle jutting either side) at around chest height in order to simulate the contours of the human skull. Facing partner then hits ball whilst PARTNER IS ON THE MOVE. Try this and you will amazed at how many people have never considered that the human skull is not a flat surface like bags and makiwara and thus you must have excellent wrist control, strike with a correct fist and select the appropiate tool for the job.


Without fail every time one of these "shadow fighters" tries this exercise you will hear repeated yelping, cursing and much rubbing of sprained wrists, thumbs, etc. Accompanied by lots of good natured laughing!


Case in point - Tyson broke his hand (and former contender and the first man to take him the distance, Mitch Green's nose) in the early nineties in a street fight. If a pro boxer can break his hand due to one ill timed punch (although it still did damage) what makes anyone think this will not happen to them?

CEB
1st November 2002, 15:31
Originally posted by hector gomez

....


As far a kicking goes,In kickboxing the fighters try to use their shins more often instead of the instep or the ball of the foot,the reason is simple,if you slam hard and often enough with the instep or ball of your foot,limping will be added to your new arsenal of techniques,seriously speaking we have many soft nerve endings in that part of our feet for a one shot deal in self defense maybe but for continuos contact fighting it is a no no.

...
I would get a good quality shin pad with instep atachment,we sometimes train with kicks to the outside thigh or inner thigh being very careful not to come close to the knees.

...

Hector Gomez

Ed,I hope that helps some.

Thanks, your information is always helpful. Interesting points on kicking. We kick with the ball of the foot or with the heel. The instep kick never appealed to me except for kin geri or kogen geri to the groin. It seems like you could easily hyperextend the ankle if you don't get a big enough bite with the kick. Maybe not, we just never kicked that way. Some of us picked that kick up from somewhere but I never did. I like the heel but it shortens your range on a lot of kicks. Karate jiyu kumite is done in short burst and probably isn't as long an ordeal as your kickboxing sparring sessions so the number of techniques thrown is probably the major factor. We don't really KICK with the shins. We bang shin a lot. I like to check incoming kicks by slamming my shins into the shin of the incoming leg. I started to wear shin pads this year because I was hurting some of the kyu students. I didn't mean to. Sometimes I would just put up my leg, they would kick me and hurt themselves. The dojo doesn't do body conditioning exercises the way we used to when my generation was coming up through the ranks.

Great tips on the equipment. I am going to see what we have in the equipment budget and reccomend we get some equipment. I will see about a couple pair of 16 oz. gloves, some heavy headgear and the leg protection you mentioned. Our dojo has always been light on the protective gear. We just wear cups, mouthguards, White marshmellow cloth fist protectors. The main reason is probably because we are all cheap and prefer to spend our money on after class beer.

Take care

Ginko
11th November 2002, 16:15
I stopped using the ball of the foot in the dojo years ago (too many broken toes). In the street, with shoes on, it is a great technique. I prefer to stick with the mawashi geri uising the shin most of the time. It's a fight-stopper when aimed at the thighs. Witness the Thai fighters & NHB fighters to see how effective that it can be. As for the gloves, I have a pair of Century gloves like the Ouanos, & I use them for sparring, bag work & Thai pad work. I love them, they're very versatile.