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Chris Li
22nd October 2002, 09:31
I posted this (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14814) thread in the Aikido forum, but I'd love to hear what the DR folks think as well...

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
27th December 2002, 00:55
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Daito
27th December 2002, 06:26
Well, since it comes from the mounth of Kimura sensei, and the teacher mentioned was Sagawa sensei, then this should speak for itself.
Of-course there are many, who say "oh, I've seen it, too" or "my sensei can...".
But to do it for real is completely different thing. Not for the audience, not for the fame of video, but simply just because it can be done!
With this attitude Sagawa sensei experimented all his life, thus techniques which may seem unreal, actually were proven possible by this great man.
Nowadays there is Kimura sensei, who can do very, very mysterious things on totally non-cooperative partner.
But again, who would believe it, right?
If I haven't felt it for myself I wouldn't believe either. I don't say I've experienced a technique mentioned in Chris's post, but I was surely stunned dumb when seeing and feeling other things performed by Kimura sensei. He is certainly very capable. Now, think of what Sagawa sensei could do...

Paul

Nathan Scott
27th December 2002, 06:47
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Chris Li
27th December 2002, 06:58
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hi Paul,

I'm not sure I follow your reply. Are you saying that Sagawa Sensei is the person that Chris is referring to in his question about chain-reaction throws? If so, then you think that such multi-person transmitted techniques are effective? I've heard of Sagawa Sensei doing some impressive techniques, but nothing like that.

Regards,

If you look down the thread, I mention later on that the person performing the feat was Sagawa (it's recounted in "Tomei na Chikara"). It's not a secret really, I just wanted to see if I could avoid pre-conceptions (in that they can be avoided at all) at first by not including the names in the story.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
27th December 2002, 07:04
[Post deleted by user]

Daito
31st December 2002, 06:33
Hi Nathan,

It's not really about the effectiveness. Sagawa sensei sometimes used to experiment with various things. When he came up with any new idea, he would try if it would work. But he didn't teach such things. As I understand it was more for research, or maybe fun.
The techniques taught by him (in Gen) stressed effectiveness.

Well, I don't know how to answer on question about Mr.Okamoto. To say it shortly, what Sagawa sensei used to do was/is completely different from anything known or seen.

Now, how would someone be expected to believe such things? - that would be the question, right?
Well, I didn't. I assumed that I've seen/experienced almost all there is about Aiki in Daitoryu. That was until February 2001, when I've met Kimura sensei. After that, I don't need to believe. It is there for me to feel and see by myself.

But again, would I believe if someone else claimed he could do such things? My answer here is: no, I wouldn't. I will have to find that person to prove it.

I've spent (and still do) quite some time in Chinese MAs, and there are many legends of teachers doing some mystical things. I listen with my ears open, but to be honest - I believe none.

Happy New Year!

Paul

Nathan Scott
26th June 2003, 21:49
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Eric Joyce
26th June 2003, 22:41
Nathan,

I don't know the answer to how effective these "mystical powers" would be in a real situation. I do know there is something there that one cannot see right away...it has to be felt. Reference was made by others to Systema and how it looks "staged" or "fake". The best way to find out is to experience it. I figure, if Stan Pranin and James Williams (folks that have been around and aren't easily impressed) that it must hold some merit, especially in real encounters. I am going to the Systema Seminar in Mesa, AZ to experience for myself. Maybe I will be able to answer this question afterwards. My 2 bits worth.