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Kuma Katsunosuk
23rd October 2002, 21:46
Here's some questions : )

Ok, for a while I've been very interested in Ninjutsu, as a whole. Not just Taijutsu, but the art as a whole - even if it isn't entirely applicable in the modern day world. I'm curious, at least, and was wondering about some .. hotly debated things. If you guys don't mind, I'd really appreciate someone taking some time to clear this stuff up for me. The political wish-wash surrounding Ninjutsu on the net is really causing me some distress.

First of all, what is the deal with Bujinkan? It is the organization stemming from Hatsumi Sensei's teachings, correct? It seems to be very strict in what it teaches, IE, not "Bujinkan" unless everyone adheres to strict teachings, with little variance. From what I keep hearing, everyone HATES Bujinkan, and Hatsumi.. as a general rule of thumb. Why? I know that Hatsumi's teacher also taught other students, and I believe these other students (most notably the one that teaches Genbukan, I think?) branched off and taught other variations of Ninjutsu as learned from the Grandmaster.

What are these differences? The negatives, the positives? Why do people frown on Bujinkan and Hatsumi - is it because (from what I heard) he tried to publicize it greatly, having himself as the only real Ninjutsu grandmaster? Did Hatsumi water down everything in Bujinkan Ninjutsu as I've heard, making it laughable when put up against other arts, which are similarly meant to be practical and damaging in a combat situation?

Where has the teaching of stealth/subterfuge/utility tactics gone? Isn't that one of the foremost applications of Ninjutsu, in the old days, rather than the Taijutsu aspect, of hand to hand - and even weapons training? A school down here, a Biakku Ryu Ninjutsu school, teaches weapons, taijutsu, as well as they commonly practice things such as climbing, stealth, escape, utilities such as the grappling hook, using weapons as tools, etc.. is this a joke? Or is this merely a teacher trying to reinstill the fullness of Ninjutsu theory? They teach the Mutras (the meditative aspects of Ninjutsu) as well.. I was wondering what you all thought of this place? The guy is a 5th dan in Ninjutsu, and something like a 4th dan in Aikido.

What are some other (IE, not Genbukan or Bujinkan) schools of Ninjutsu, if any?

What are your opinions of Ninjutsu, when compared and contrasted with other combat-geared forms, such as Wing Chun (great close in combat, destroying the opponent's technique at all costs) and things like Aikido, which I've seen work great against offensive attackers (good balance of energy expenditure, with potential for damaging your target)?

I will probably think of more things to ask in short time.. but please don't flame me. I hope I didn't warrant anything to provoke a hostile response.. I'm just trying to learn.

Thanks guys!

ninjaman
23rd October 2002, 22:31
Troll.

Johan Grönwall

Oni
23rd October 2002, 22:50
Please play nice. Many of his questions could very well be from reading various other forums on the internet and may very well be legitimate misunderstandings based on the mass of misinformation out there.

My answer to many of your questions is simple...what you see here on the internet is a very small representation of the organizations in question. The internet has a whole political level all of its own that doesn't affect a great many practitioners.

If upon reading this you (not the poster) find yourself wanting to respond angrily or hotly sit back and ignore it ;) If no one has any objective or helpful answers it will simply fade away.

I do think asking these questions is fair based on some of the garbage that is spewed about...it is the response to the answers given that will show the true reason for the asking.

Finally...is Kuma Katsunosuk your real name? If so great...if not please note that it is our policy to sign all posts with your full real name.

Thanks,

Kuma Katsunosuk
23rd October 2002, 23:01
First, I'd like to say sorry about the lack of my signing my name - I had read that a few times, but in my haste to finish my post, I had forgotten. Yes that is my name, should I have made it another name for the forum?

As to your other comments, you are very correct - I've been searching for solid information about the various schools of Ninjutsu, as well as information regarding the teaching of the non-taijutsu side of the art.. for a while now. I went to the Descendants of Ninjutsu forum, and they are all bickering children who literally post "Ashida Kim is a moron" comments every five minutes - with "Bujinkan is a joke" posts every 2 minutes. I asked them why they said some of the things they did, and they immediately began insulting me, and failing to answer my questions with any real validity. I've been looking around, but I've not really managed to stabilize any of this information.

By reading the stuff around here, I've found you all seem rather knowledgeable - and thus I asked these questions, all in one, direct post.. in order to get a simple, solid answer from one or many people here.

Thank you guys,
Kuma Katsunosuki

Kuma Katsunosuk
23rd October 2002, 23:37
Also, I have another question, if you do not mind:

The school I am looking at, is Bushido Ninjutsu Academy, they claim to teach Biakko (or Biakku?) Ryu... this is not one of the Nine Ryu? But they also say they follow the teachings of the Togakure Ryu, under Hatsumi Sensei's guideance, IE, Bujinkan..

I'm all very confused..

thank you,
Kuma Katsunosuki

CMM
23rd October 2002, 23:41
Hmmm...watashi wa katsu ga suki kedo...katsu no suki to iiu koto wa shirimasen!
Here's wishing I had Japanese IME at work!

Kuma Katsunosuk
23rd October 2002, 23:53
I don't understand a word of what you said, I'm more American than anything =) I do not speak Japanese, unfortunately, but I hope to learn in the future.

Kuma Katsunosuki

tenchijin2
24th October 2002, 01:11
First of all, what is the deal with Bujinkan? It is the organization stemming from Hatsumi Sensei's teachings, correct? It seems to be very strict in what it teaches, IE, not "Bujinkan" unless everyone adheres to strict teachings, with little variance. From what I keep hearing, everyone HATES Bujinkan, and Hatsumi.. as a general rule of thumb. Why? I know that Hatsumi's teacher also taught other students, and I believe these other students (most notably the one that teaches Genbukan, I think?) branched off and taught other variations of Ninjutsu as learned from the Grandmaster.

THe Bujinkan is the organization of Hatsumi sensei. It is not strict in its teachings, but rather its lineage. In other words, the claims of "that's not bujinkan!" are because of the large number of people who falsely claim to be actual active students within the Bujinkan. They often claim to teach "ninjutsu" and claim to have studied "in the bujinkan" but do not, in fact, have much understanding of what is currently taught within the Bujinkan.

As to why it is HATED... there are a number of reasons.
1)it has been highly successful, and as such is a target of jealous people.
2) it has its share of fools who say ignorant, spiteful things which many find distasteful.
3)because making the Bujinkan look bad makes them feel better.(related to #1).

As to the Genbukan: Tanemura sensei was a student of Hatsumi sensei, not Hatsumi sensei's teacher. He has since travelled a very different martial path seeking out other instructors who trained with Hatsumi's teacher. There is much bitterness between many members of both groups.


Where has the teaching of stealth/subterfuge/utility tactics gone? Isn't that one of the foremost applications of Ninjutsu, in the old days, rather than the Taijutsu aspect, of hand to hand - and even weapons training? A school down here, a Biakku Ryu Ninjutsu school, teaches weapons, taijutsu, as well as they commonly practice things such as climbing, stealth, escape, utilities such as the grappling hook, using weapons as tools, etc.. is this a joke? Or is this merely a teacher trying to reinstill the fullness of Ninjutsu theory? They teach the Mutras (the meditative aspects of Ninjutsu) as well.. I was wondering what you all thought of this place? The guy is a 5th dan in Ninjutsu, and something like a 4th dan in Aikido.

The Bujinkan exists primarily to disseminate the Budo of the various ryuha of which Hatsumisensei is soke. Very little of that is 'ninjutsu' per se, but it was something he was very interested in in the 70s, as evidenced by the books early on. Very little of the 'stealth' stuff is practiced or even known any longer, as it is of little value given advancements in technology and such. Anyone claiming to train like 'traditional ninja' with all the climbing, stealth, and such, has made it up. It may be good stuff, but it didn't come from any japanese martial art.

Claiming a '5th dan in ninjutsu' is silly. No one is graded specifically in 'ninjutsu' anymore.


What are your opinions of Ninjutsu, when compared and contrasted with other combat-geared forms, such as Wing Chun (great close in combat, destroying the opponent's technique at all costs) and things like Aikido, which I've seen work great against offensive attackers (good balance of energy expenditure, with potential for damaging your target)?

Comparisons to other arts are pointless. I've seen really good martial artists of every style, and really bad martial artists of every style.

If you need more information, you may send me a private message.

ninjaman
24th October 2002, 01:43
Sorry about the "troll" thing. The guy seems alright. Just sounded like a "Hatsumi fell of his bike once" kind of post. Well, you learn everyday. My ninjas has been called back to their quarters. :nw:

Johan Grönwall

Kuma Katsunosuk
24th October 2002, 02:09
What I'm worried about is the fact that he is telling me it is Biakku Ryu.. it's not one of the Nine Ryu. I'm wondering how watered down and dilluted it is - should I ask the sensei who his master was, and upwards? I'd like to know if it can be traced to one of Hatsumi Sensei's fellow students. He keeps saying it is Togakure Ryu.. but then he tells me it is Biakku Ryu.. Bah. ; )

Ninjaman.. do not worry about it. I've seen enough hostility on the net about Ninjutsu to understand people being defensive around newcomers!

Thanks again,
Kuma Katsunosuki

kimq
24th October 2002, 05:01
Originally posted by Kuma Katsunosuk
First of all, what is the deal with Bujinkan? It is the organization stemming from Hatsumi Sensei's teachings, correct? It seems to be very strict in what it teaches, IE, not "Bujinkan" unless everyone adheres to strict teachings, with little variance.

I sincerely doubt anyone other than Soke can say with any validity what is "Bujinkan" and what is not. At this point in my experience in the organization, the important thing is learning its martial principles that are more important than semantics.


From what I keep hearing, everyone HATES Bujinkan, and Hatsumi.. as a general rule of thumb. Why? I know that Hatsumi's teacher also taught other students, and I believe these other students (most notably the one that teaches Genbukan, I think?) branched off and taught other variations of Ninjutsu as learned from the Grandmaster.

There is a lot of Bujinkan bashing for various reasons. Each person will find flaws in anything, if they look hard enough, because that is what they want to find.

It is my understanding that the heads of the Genbukan and the Jinenkan got their ninjutsu training from Hatsumi Sensei. Takamatsu Sensei passed the scrolls to Hatsumi Sensei.


Did Hatsumi water down everything in Bujinkan Ninjutsu as I've heard, making it laughable when put up against other arts, which are similarly meant to be practical and damaging in a combat situation?

I know guys who are very capable fighters thanks to their Bujinkan training. I know guys who have no training that would destroy high-ranked Bujinkan practitioners. The individual makes the fighter - not the art he studies. Those weak will benefit from study and become better than they were yesturday. Those strong will become even better thanks to study. It is an enhancement. If you have no heart, no amount of training will give it to you. Training is an enhancement of what one already has - not a replacement.


Where has the teaching of stealth/subterfuge/utility tactics gone? Isn't that one of the foremost applications of Ninjutsu, in the old days, rather than the Taijutsu aspect, of hand to hand - and even weapons training?

Taijutsu in itself is a whole life's study. It is the core of the subareas you speak of above. Emphasis is placed on the core, which is Taijutsu. Everything else springs from there. Without it, the rest is useless.


A school down here, a Biakku Ryu Ninjutsu school, teaches weapons, taijutsu, as well as they commonly practice things such as climbing, stealth, escape, utilities such as the grappling hook, using weapons as tools, etc.. is this a joke? Or is this merely a teacher trying to reinstill the fullness of Ninjutsu theory? They teach the Mutras (the meditative aspects of Ninjutsu) as well.. I was wondering what you all thought of this place? The guy is a 5th dan in Ninjutsu, and something like a 4th dan in Aikido.

Ask to see his Shidoshi certificate from Hatsumi Sensei. If he cannot produce it or refuses, look for another school. On the surface, this guy seems like a crackpot.


What are your opinions of Ninjutsu, when compared and contrasted with other combat-geared forms, such as Wing Chun (great close in combat, destroying the opponent's technique at all costs) and things like Aikido, which I've seen work great against offensive attackers (good balance of energy expenditure, with potential for damaging your target)?

My wife studied Wing Chun. She'd kick my butt, if I challenged her at trapping range. I'm too smart to do that, however, and handle her at ranges she is weaker in. Some of Taijutsu is a lot like Aikido, but Aikido is resticted by its nature - Taijutsu is not.

Find a legitemate Bujinkan Shidoshi who trains at least once a year in Japan with Hatsumi Sensei.