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Lens
24th October 2002, 11:03
Hey, is it possible for someone to give me a rough number of:

1.)legitimate Koryu Jujutsu styles still existent today?

2.) The names of the major Budo / Koryu organizations in Japan and where their head quarters is situated in Japan?

This would be great to add to my knowledge. Any help would be highly appreceated.

Please I dont whant this thread to end up like my last one. No political posts. No made up stories. No false numbers and no prestigius organizations bashing please!!!.

Thank you with all my hearth.

(ready with paper and pen to write down the answears):D

fifthchamber
24th October 2002, 14:40
Hi Lens.
Although I cannot answer the question directly I would suggest that you write to the main organisation that deals with the Koryu groups in Japan at this address;
Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai
3 Kojimachi 6-Chome,
Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 102
Japan.
They my be able to help you out and may give you a lst of those Koryu that are associated with them (This however is NOT all of the existant Koryu...).
Otherwise maybe the Koryu Bugei Daijiten could provide some answers altough again it will not be easy if your Japanese is not good. (And again the Daijiten rarely includes dates on timelines and so is hard to ascertain whether the arts are still going...).
Sorry to not be of more help.
Abayo..

Daniel Lee
25th October 2002, 00:36
The Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai that Ben mentioned is one of two central organisations in the promotion of authentic kobudo.

After looking through their 1999 members list in the Hiden Dojo Guide, I note 37 inheritors of either jujutsu ryuha or ryuha which include unarmed training(ryushin chukai-ryu, shosho-ryu, yagyu shingan-ryu, yagyu shingan-ryu (another inheritor), koga-ryu, iga-ryuha kasshin-ryu, kiraku-ryu, araki-ryu, araki-ryu (another inheritor), kiraku-ryu (another inheritor), katori shinto-ryu, tatsumi-ryu, ishiguro-ryu, tenjin shinyo-ryu, nanben satto-ryu, daito-ryu, shinto yoshin-ryu, tenjin shinyo-ryu (another inheritor), wado-ryu jujutsu kenpo, shinkage-ryu jujutsu, sosuishitsu-ryu, yagyu shingan-ryu (another inheritor), yagyu shingan-ryu taijutsu, asayama ichiden-ryu heiho, nagao-ryu, daito-ryu (another inheritor), konshin-ryu, shibukawa-ryu, sekiguchi shinshin-ryu, hontai yoshin-ryu, shingetsu muso yanagi-ryu, takagi-ryu/kukishin-ryu, takeuchi-ryu, takeuchi-ryu (another inheritor), shibukawa ichi-ryu, takeda-ryu aikinojutsu, niten ichiryu, motobu udante). I'm not sure which lines of niten ichiryu include muto-dori jujutsu tactics though.

The other organisation is the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. You can find some (Japanese) information about this government-sponsored foundation at:

http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkou/html_1/index9.html

The page lists 16 jujutsu ryuha (ryushin kaichu-ryu, shosho-ryu,
iga-ryuha kasshin-ryu, kiraku-ryu, tenjin shinyo-ryu, daito-ryu, shinto yoshin-ryu, tenjin shinyo-ryu (another inheritor), daito-ryu (another inheritor), shibukawa-ryu, shingetsu muso yanagi-ryu, hontai yoshin-ryu, takagi-ryu/kukishin-ryu, sekiguchi shishin-ryu, takeuchiryu koshinomawari kogusoku, takeuchi-ryu hinosita torite kaizan), 2 taijutsu ryuha (yagyu shingan-ryu kacchu heiho, yagyu shingan-ryu taijutsu), and I note 5 other ryuha which I recognise as including unarmed training in their syllabi (katori shinto-ryu, tatsumi-ryu, wado-ryu jujutsu kenpo, motobu udante, niten ichi-ryu). Two other jujutsu ryuha (shibukawa ichi-ryu and kito-ryu) are listed as provisional members.

Best wishes,

Daniel Lee

Lens
25th October 2002, 10:15
Fifthchamber,
Thanks for the information. I wil go down to the Japanese embassy because they have translating services there. It will cost me but its worthed.

Thanks Daniel,
The site is in Japanese and my translator dosent seem to translate it very well.


So about the Koryu Jujutsu i will write the letters. I am also thinking of writing a letter to Dai Nippon Butoku Kai and Nippon Budokan.

About the Main Japanese organizations:
I already know about....
*Dai Nippon Butoku Kai - Kyoto - all main Budo arts
*Nippon Budokan - Tokyo (i belive) - all main budo arts
*Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei - (no location) - Kendo, iaido, and jodo i belive
*Koryu Bugei Daijiten - (no location) - all koryu styles
*Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai - Tokyo - all koryu styles

this is just a rough list i made so any more names i appreceate, i am sure there are more.

On the net this type of info seems very hard to get...found some lists but very small ones and limited.

Daniel Lee
25th October 2002, 10:54
Lens,

Just a note that the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is the kobudo branch of the Nippon Budokan Foundation.

The Bugei Ryuha Daijiten work is now being conducted by Bunbukan not a martial arts organisation, rather a martial history research group.

Good luck,

Daniel Lee

Lens
25th October 2002, 13:01
Thank you Daniel,

Modified list:

*Dai Nippon Butoku Kai - Kyoto - all main Budo arts
*Nippon Budokan - Tokyo - all main budo arts
*Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei - (no location) - Kendo, iaido, jodo

Im sure there are more. But the most ones i keep hearing about are, Dai Nippon Butoku Kai, Nippon Budokan and Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei. But im sure that there are more.

Regards,

ghp
25th October 2002, 18:53
You can write to the Dai Nippon Butokukai, but they are not as active, I believe, as they were before the war (I was a member a few years ago). Instead, I recommend you write to the Kokusai Budoin (Budoin for 5th dan and above, "Kokusai Budo Renmei" for 4th dan and below).
http://www.imafusa.com/images/colorlogo.gif
Their English name is "International Martial Arts Federation" (IMAF). IMAF took over where the Butokukai left off after its disestablishment by GHQ; Butokukai never really was able to regain its former dominance.

Kokusai Budoin is represented in the US through the Shudokan Martial Arts Association (SMAA). Their website is currently under revision, but you can contact the head, Hugh Davey, at http://www.michionline.org/

Kokusai Budoin's website is http://www.imafusa.com
The French representative is Antoine Torres,
11 Rue Des Peupliers, 25600 Vieux-Charmont, France
Tell & Fax: 33/03 81 94 65 19

From their website:
About the Kokusai Budoin IMAF (International Martial Arts Federation)

The Kokusai Budoin (International Martial Arts Federation), founded in 1952, is dedicated to the promotion of friendship and cooperation among leaders and enthusiasts of the Japanese Martial Arts.

Its Headquarters is in Tokyo, Japan. IMAF has established branches in many countries throughout the world.

Among the objectives of IMAF are the expansion of interest in Japanese Martial Arts, the establishment of communication, friendship, understanding and harmony among member chapters, the development of the minds and bodies of members, and the promotion of world peace and human growth

IMAF Headquarters, as an International certification Headquarters for the Martial Arts, commends meritorious individuals by granting grades, degrees and awards. it sponsors regular exhibition tournaments and publishes pertinent information concerning the Japanese Martial Arts.

The Kokusai Budoin, IMAF comprises the following divisions: JUDO, KENDO, KARATEDO, AIKIDO, IAIDO,NIHON JUJUTSU, AND KOBUDO.

All Martial Arts enthusiasts who are in accord with the objectives of the International Martial Arts Federation are welcome to apply for membership. For further information, please contact any IMAF affiliated office.

Lens
25th October 2002, 20:04
Thanks mate,

http://www.dainipponbutokukai.org still active and solid altough i too belive its not as dominant as before. But war is war, war can change the world upside down.

Bush, stop it. Dont whant to see Ashida Kim taking over after world war 3.....:D

I will also write to International Martial Arts Federation and i belive this name is not new to my ears. I will contact the International org rather than the Japanese because translation is going to cost me!!!!. Thank you for informing me.

What i originaly requested was just the names and headquarters locations of main Budo organizations not to write them all but just for my knowledge.

This is not an organization War but rather what I seem to learn. Many organizations became seperate Budo groups from DNBK after the war and all have something great to offer, but its still very much active world wide not just Japan and it has some very reputable members world wide and in Japan. they have earned my respect and i badly feel i should write to them and ask some questions about the org and some of its japanese members like the old miura seems popular world wide. Infact one of the best sites I like is www.ukjjai.com because of the experiance with Japanese schools this old British master has and good achivements with DNBK he also has 15 associations world wide and he is also a student of the late Haruna Sensei which seems quite popular world wide (see IN MEMORY on the front page) and many others that cant come to my mind, but this site is one of my favorites. (not beacause of the site design because the design is not so good but what is in it that i like. actualy the site design is s..t)

By the end of the day i will have to write to all Japanese organizations...or should i have said by the end of the millenium!
:)

Thanks all,
for making this probably the first thread I started that got some good replies in.

regards:p

MarkF
26th October 2002, 14:49
You're still on concerning the DNBK. Just be informed this group has no connection to the DNBK of 1895 and any time period mentioned concerning it being a continuation or a reconnected group is almost entirely false. The original group was absorbed by the Kodokan and organized into the Japanese Judo Federation which is still operated today. Why would there be two DNBKs if the original decided they didn't exist after the war?

The name itself should give you a hint. It would call itself the Zen Nihon Butokukai if anything, but then you know that. Besides, why write to Japan? There is a branch of that organization right here in the US.

I did notice they put up a little more pleasing to the eye web site with more than one page, but for an organization of such size you would still think they would hire a webmaster to do their own. All they did was pay the eight bucks or so for a redirct to the free web site.

They do claim an 800 year or more existence, but are finally beginning to see that crack of dawn's early light (depending whom you ask) so I'd be a little suspect at such claims. Once they admit they are a private organization seeking private funding from all those who are members, then I'd be more willing to get off my relatively high horse about this organization. Besides, considering who hung out at the original, one would think they would want to distance themselves as much as possible. They don't so I do.

Lens
27th October 2002, 16:03
Thanks Mark,

I will write to Kodokan Judo and ask them about their, Aikido, Iaido, Karate, Kyudo, Jujutsu......... instructors!

Lens
29th October 2002, 13:38
Hey,
any body knows an e-mail address of a Nippon Budokan officer?

'Dai Nippon Butoku Kai' and 'IMAF' I have, but 'Nippon Budokan' I cant find anywere on their site.

E-mailing is easier and CHEAPER.

Regards,

MarkF
29th October 2002, 15:54
I had my say and won't begrudge the point, but they would probably be happy to give you those names. Nevermind, I'll give some of them to you. Lezzee, Who is that aikido teacher, Mickey, no Tomiki Kenji? There was also, Yukio Tani, who wasn't Kodokan till well after the turn of the 20 century, karate? That would be Funakoshi Gichin, Sword is a part of the Kodokan syllabus, what else did you mention? Kyudo? Actually kyujutsu but I won't split hairs, that was Saigo Shiro, and Jujutsu, well...Jojutsu, there is another you left out. In fact, many other MA are taught at the Kodokan today.

Kano Jigoro doesn't ring a bell? He had menjo in at least two Koryu jujutsu and where the sword comes into the Kodokan.


Besides that and with all seriousness, why do you want information from an organization (Incidentally, it was not a dojo on its founding, it was a "men's club") with the name it maintains? Why give any support to a fascist government? Certainly, you must have taken some history in school. Have you read Stanley Pranin's discussion of the DNBK? Anything? I won't speak for Guy, but certainly you remember the one other ex-member of the modern incarnation of the DNBK who wasn't exactly thrilled with his treatment.

Don't take my word for it, look up your own thread on which many answered the question.
********

Hi, Guy,
I didn't see your post when I posted before. You're gonna be fifty, huh, well happy trails! Is there anyone who is older than me here? I'm so confused!:confused:


Mark

ghp
29th October 2002, 21:47
Howdy Mark! You old-timer, you!
The original group was absorbed by the Kodokan and organized into the Japanese Judo Federation which is still operated today. Why would there be two DNBKs if the original decided they didn't exist after the war? Well, I'll give you a 75% on that test question. :)

(1) Kodokan: The Kodokan might have wrested back "national" control of judo, but that is all. The kenjutsu section was reborn as the All Japan Kendo Federation, naginatajutsu as the All Japan Naginata Federation, battojutsu as the All Japan Iaido Federation, jukenjutsu as the All Japan Jukendo Federation, and the kyujutsu section by the All Japan Kyudo Federation. The overall post-war direction of budo was, I believe, steered by the formation of the Budokan -- If I'm not mistaken, the All Japan Federations I mentioned have their headquarters at the Budokan. There followed other omnibus-type organizations such as the Kokusai Budoin, the Kobudo Shinkokai, and much later, the rebirth of the DNBK.

(2) DNBK: the DNBK did not decide not to exist -- Supreme HQ Allied Command decided they should be disestablished because the governing members were nationalistic -- and the teachings were more fascist than budo. The senior members tried to pre-emptively rewrite the DNBK's charter, and show how they were all about preserving ancient martial traditions -- but SCAP wouldn't buy it. They were Disestablished in 1947 I think.

I'm on a firm foundation regarding points (1) and (2) above, but I might be stepping into deep water from this point down :) --

I'm not too sure that swordsmanship was part of the Kodokan syllabus. Did you mention Funakoshi Gichin's name accidentally? -- Funakoshi was Karate, but didn't he provide seminars at Kodokan? If so, karate should not be inferred as a part of the Kodokan's syllabus. I have read that Kano sensei did send out promising students to study various koryu (Mochizuki Minoru was one, I can't remember the other without doing some serious looking). He then established a type of "koryu kenkyukai" study group at the Kodokan, but as far as I've read so far, there's never been an official "sword art" etc. at the Kodokan. [Or, did I misinterpret what you were saying??]

Best regards,
Guy

MarkF
30th October 2002, 13:21
well, OK, Guy, if you want to be technical...:redhot:

I didn't think I said Funakoshi was under the Kodokan, and in fact I said in another thread, more precisely that other martial arts had, and have been taught at the Kodokan, but certainly were not under the banner of the Kodokan. The question, or comment was one of "teachers of certain MA teaching at the Kodokan which they certainly did." I have to go back over what I hastily wrote but I don't think that I said Funakoshi or anyone else taught under the auspicies or license of the Kodokan. I suppose it could be called "seminars" but I was making a point to our friend. Other judo players did judo at both locations well before the war (see the Sarah Meyer letters on EJMAS).

I had thought that the disolution of the DNBK was in 1946, at least one source did site that year, and another 1949. I'm comfortable with 1947.

In another online source, it was stated that the members of the DNBK did get together for one last time to learn whether or not they, in fact, did still exist (the short description, anyway), and that the Judo players (you are correct about the other federations, but as some date the year of disolution to be in 1949, etc. well, sometimes it is difficult to be precise), but I believe there was reason for the Japanese Judo Federation's existence to be the first formed out of this "banning" or dissolution. The differences in dates are probably miniscule. I mean, some who were members were not exactly comfortable at the Kodokan. Some did stay on at the Kodokan, so while it may be an oversimplification, it can be stated that way, but ONLY IMO.

Sword kata/waza were practiced and still are part of the syllabus (try finding anyone there who does it, though), but today only as attacks for the teaching of defensive technique (I brought that up to Mr. Obata Toshishiro and he e-laughed in my face). Most of the sword technique were pretty much gone especially when judo was allowed if it was a private dojo, and the Kodokan did fit that, once demonstrated it was a sport with some very good H2H technique.

If you look, all the remaining sword technique are still called by the attack, eg, kirioroshi, but it existed for learning to defend.

Anyway, thanks for making me think about it, as only you can, you old sot (Didn't the forties go by in about three minutes)? The one thing concerning today's version of the DNBK, OK, two things, is the use of that name, and the tall tales told by members of an 1100 year history and the North American branch here.

Other than existing, I have no problem with it.:D

As always, I learn something when you are around and you have patience something I think I may have when I hit sixty, about 90 seconds from now.
*******

Yes, I just looked at what I actually wrote and I glossed over it all without explanation. Kano was very generous when it came to koryu and I am sometimes surprised that the point isn't made more often, that he suggested to some to get a further education in judo by studying jujutsu. Kano referred to aikido, or probably aikibudo at that time, as the more complete judo. He said that it was "the Judo of 180 degrees and ours is the Judo of 90 degrees."

Oh, I am less than two years...well I'm fifty-one. For a couple of months I am two years older than you but when your name comes up I usually say I am Guy Power's age. Didn't mean to date you or anything.:eek:

Thanks and best regards,

Mark

Lens
30th October 2002, 14:17
the only thing i can see different in DNBK is that it dosent govern all martial groups as before but otherwise i cant see any illegal things in it! still seems a healthy organization in Koryu and Gendai.

But now what i need is an e-mail address of Budokan!!! please if it exists.

DNBK and IMAF i already sent a e-mail but no reply yet.

Thanks for now,

Lens
30th October 2002, 14:52
"but certainly you remember the one other ex-member of the modern incarnation of the DNBK who wasn't exactly thrilled with his treatment."

Would you belive any one what they say about a group that they have been kicked out off because of mis behaviour? i dont.

I have my own bunch off friends you know.

-------------------------------------------------------(FULL STOP)

now about that e-mail.....hhmmmmm anyone please?

mark i know you can help? or ghp? youve been on earth a couple of years before me. pleaseee i beg you...

fifthchamber
30th October 2002, 15:07
Hi Lens.
I would not assume that there is any link with the modern DNBK and with any Koryu groups currently practising in Japan.
What I have seen of the organisation of the Butokukai is that it seems to promote various groups of gendai Budo forms but no Koryu.
There seem to be links with Judo, Karate-Do, Kendo/Iaido, and possibly some other modern forms (Like the British Jujitsu group you highlighted earlier) but there are no links named with any of the Koryu. (This, as I stated earlier is the role of the Kobudo Shinkokai and the Kobudo Kyokai groups mainly...).
As far as legality goes I am sure it is legal....That is not really the point that Mark and others are making..You seem convinced that the group maintains a 'overseer' role in Japanese Budo, both Koryu and Gendai, and that the DNBK is a 'major' player in Japan. This, as has been stated already is not reality..It seems a shadow of its former self and thank God that it is...The role it used to play is one of the things all countries should be trying hard to eliminate. (IMHO).
As far as the email address goes I can't help...If they don't have a website it may be harder than normal to find one, more personal certainly..For your question though the two Koryu groups I mentioned would seem to me to be the right direction for inquiries...
HTH.
Ben.

Lens
30th October 2002, 17:46
Thanks Ben,

DNBK has Gendai Budo thats for sure. About Koryu, Koryu is not something I am familiar very with that is why I want information about Koryu but I belive DNBK has some very reputable Koryu teachers and some soke as well like Miura Sensei I recently told you about (Iaijutsu, jojutsu, bojutsu, jujutsu and others)

his official site (http://www3.sympatico.ca/sebkuniko/)

interview (http://ejmas.com/tin/tinart_taylor_0701.htm)

hompage of his students outside Japan (http://www.jikishin-kai.com/AboutUs/miura.htm)

In these articles I read alot about koryu styles but never read gendai anywere in these + theres a new name of a Kobudo org in Japan, Zen nippon kobudo renmei sogo which he got some certifications from in the 70's. To many names for a single guy to handle at once.

Some other Ryu (dont know if they are all koryu or mixed with some Gendai Ryu) that I know DNBK has, are:

Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu,
Katori Shinto Ryu,
Muso Isshin Ryu,
Muso Shinden Ryu,
Omori Ryu,
Muso Ittoh Ryu,
Okinawa Konan Ryu,
Goju Ryu,
Shotokan,
Chito Ryu,
Chishin Ryu,
Wado Ryu,
Kushin Ryu,
Shorin Ryu,
Yanagi Ryu,
Shibukawa Ryu,
Daito Ryu,
Yagyu Shingan Ryu,
Yanagi ryu,
Araki Ryu,
Chishin Ryu,
Myo shin Ryu,
Soshindo,
Korin Kai,
Chishin Ryu Heiho,
Aiki Inyou Kai,
Tenchi Aikido,
Shin Gi Tai,
Shindo/shinto? Muso Ryu,
Chishin Ryu Heiho.

in:
Iaijutsu, Kendo, Kenjutsu, Karatedo, Judo, Jiujutsu, Aikido, Aikijutsu, Jojutsu, Battodo, Kyujutsu, Sojutsu, and Okinawan Kobudo.

(note this list could be mixed gendai and koryu, that is why I decided i should start and contact for information.)

About thir generation Soke's I only know about Miura - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu that is why I need more resources!

Thanks Ben, I always love reading your replies because you disagree with respect and courtesy when you disagree.

About which is the best organization. For my own opinion I will decide myself which it is when I find what I need to find. That is why I need the e-mail of Budokan, I feel I cant leave it out of my personal research.

Regards

kitodon
4th April 2006, 05:57
Nippon Kobudo KyoKai
c/o Nippon Budokan
2-3, Kitanomaru-Koen,
Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo


Took me a while to find it again after moving. These guys will help, I did have a phone number as well and a further address for other regional organisations, but I can't seem to find it at the moment. My advise write to them with the detail of what you are seeking they will reply and give details if they have them.

It was 1994 when I last contacted them but it should be still valid the Nippon Budokan hasn't moved! I did ring them but at that stage they only spoke Janapese (understandably) and my japanese is not great to say the least so if you know someone who can translate I suggest you arrange someting before hand.

Good luck.....

djnoah
4th August 2006, 03:52
Just an FYI: for those who actually train in one of the Kobudo Ryu, the main organization in Japan which sanctions licensing, lineage, etc. is the Zen Nippon Kobudo Renmei; their office is in the Budokan.

fifthchamber
4th August 2006, 04:40
They wouldn't tend to sanction licensing in these schools as that is left up to the school head in question. They are responsible for maintaining and promoting these arts here and abroad however.. The Kyokai and the Shinkokai both help to promote Koryu arts here. But neither has anything to do with licensing.
Regards.

Daniel Lee
4th August 2006, 04:44
Just an FYI: for those who actually train in one of the Kobudo Ryu, the main organization in Japan which sanctions licensing, lineage, etc. is the Zen Nippon Kobudo Renmei; their office is in the Budokan.
Hi Noah,

I think you might be getting the ZNKR mixed up with the Shinkokai and Kyokai that Ben mentioned. I haven't heard much about the ZNKR outside of Kano Takehiko-sensei and MJER's Miura-sensei (also a student of Kano-sensei's in Kukishin-ryu etc). Who else is involved in ZNKR?

PS: How are things on the East of the Yamanote, Ben? :)

fifthchamber
9th August 2006, 01:11
Hi Daniel,
Things here are settling once again..Training is just getting better...How about yourself?Well I hope?
Oh, won't be at Meiji this year...The Okayama Kobudosai is on the 4th and all the Takeuchi guys head there for the enbu..So I won't see you there I guess..
My regards, in a wet and cold part of Tokyos suburbs..
Ben