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Jay Vail
25th October 2002, 10:33
I have trained for years in a system deriving its kata from Shotokan. One thing that has always puzzled me is the fact that there are so few kicks demonstrated in the kata. There are, basically, only four shown: front, side, inside crescent and stamping. Do any forum members have any explanation why the rest of the kicks, which apparently were practiced in karate in the early days, not included in the kata?

Andy Watson
25th October 2002, 11:10
My understanding was that traditionally karate did not contain heaps of kicks anyway and many of the kicks found in mainstream shotokan/shotokai were introduced by Funakoshi's son, mawashi-geri for example, which I don't think is in any of the shorin style katas.

Steven Malanosk
25th October 2002, 13:55
Being that the old katas where made to pass on combat techniques, the more elaborate kicks did not exist within these curriculum. Okinawa KaraTe stuck to low front, back and a kind of angular side kick, plus in GoJu Ryu, the wave kick = crescent kick to the inside and of course the stomp kick.

Nidan geri = double front kick was also used, but for distance and not height.

There are variables according to particular instructors specialties, i.e., Kyan was a kicker, so his lineage tends to use higher kicks at times. There is a bunkai of the jump turn and land sprawled movement, in which the move can be used as a jump spinning back kick. I saw this done by IsShin Ryu. IsShin also uses a kind of mid level round kick in Sunsu kata, made by Shimabuku, a kyan student.

The side kick became modernized later, as it is known today, but as I said before, was originally angular.

The old adage: Kicks in the North, fists in the South comes to mind here.

If you look at Southern Chinese systems, you see the kicks as used in Okinawa, as opposed to Northern systems use of elaborate kicking methods.

As Jiu Kumite was introduced, the kicking arsenal became larger, and here in the USA, most of us have introduced kicks from wherever to our arsenal, but the old schools only used what was direct, and apropos to their needs at the time, for the real combat situations, extant in the particular era.

I teach all kinds of kicks, but with arthritis in my left hip cannot do some of the more elaborate kicks anymore, like I used to.

Funny, I can still do the entire GoJu curriculum.

I guess they knew something about longevity ehhhhhhhh?

Victor
26th October 2002, 03:20
I consider the issue of the 'lack' of kicks in the traditional kata one worth considering.

Kata are vast wells of knowledge, but there is always a reasonable question whether they contained all the karate knowledge of the past.

I belive it is reasonable to assume there were subsidiary techniques that while not making their way into the kata, were still a strong aspect of an instructors art. Perhaps this was by choice, keeping some things most private, who can say as nothing really is documented of the distant past.

Kicking technique, may well not have been included in the kata a great deal for several reasons.

1. the kicking technique which was included fit specific sequence applications which the kata originator/modifier wanted included.

2. kicking may have been thought of as a normal outgrowth of stepping, moving and turning in the kata performance. Learning when and where it appropriate to add to kata technique may have been involved in the 'kakushite - hidden hand' aspect of instruction.

Personally I make a strong case in my experiece that the locking, striking throwing art of kata may well have stood quite separate from the Okinawan kicking training, and both were adjuncts to each other.

3. solitary kicking training and eventual awareness may have been thought of as sufficient training for usage.

Also, it seems to me that most of the older style kicking, along with being directed to the legs and lower abdomen, was mostly variations of the front kick. There is even a variation of the front kick which akin to Tai Kick Boxing shin strikes, is a partial foundation for the later sport roundhouse kick.

And while mostly speculation, the inclusion of the side kick, in all its variations and angles of delivery, seem to be derivative of the Naha lineage.

Unfortunately most of the original kicking aspects have been left behind in much modern instruction as there is no really safe sporting aspect for its usage. So the front, round and side kicks to the body and face arose.

Something to ponder,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Tatsu
28th October 2002, 01:12
Most Okinawan karate emphasizes hand techs. "High" kicks are usually to the solar plexus, and ideally, a good Okinawan style emphasizes leg kicking and sweeps. As mentioned earlier the "mawashi geri" or "roundhouse kick" is a recently adopted tech. Recent being the mid-20th century. Now missing from most karate dojos is the use of whip kicks and other old techniques. Even the side-kick is done by turning the foot over and rotating the leg inward (in the hip socket) vs. turning the whole body to the side in order to deliver the kick.

There are really no thrust kicks in Okinawan karate. The "mae-geri-kekomi" is from Japanese karate. Those kicks will get you beat in the street, especially against a good grappler. With the exception of a stomping or pushkick when grabbed in close, thrust techs are for show and conditioning. They are to easy to catch to be relied on for real fighting.

Again, Chuan Fa or Kempo/Kenpo in Okinawa and Japan, is primarily a hand art. I would say that ShuriTe and NahaTe normally use 75%-85% hand techniques and 25%-15% leg techs. Some ryuha that decended from Chotoku Kyan and Itosu Anko, many modern styles, use high "Northern Shaolin" kicking techs. I have seen high kicks work in the street, but usually it best to keep your legs on or near the ground. Ruffians like to grapple....

fuwafuwausagi
28th October 2002, 05:17
Victor (aka the funky dragon) wrote:

2. kicking may have been thought of as a normal outgrowth of stepping, moving and turning in the kata performance. Learning when and where it appropriate to add to kata technique may have been involved in the 'kakushite - hidden hand' aspect of instruction.

My reply:

I'll give the cigar to Victor for that little gem. In several southern CMAs, kicking is conspicuous by its absence. That is because several of the Fukien system are predicated on endemic cultural paradigms. In the case of several southern arts, wu-xing is interpreted in crescent stepping as representing five separate "kicks".

You can see this in some variants of Wu Shu Chuan(ngor chor). There is a form called by some "Aru Shi Chuan", it is performed in some lineages in two distinct variants. The standard form is performed without overt kicking, but variant, taught somewhat privately, uses many kicks. As this is the first "live step" form in Wu Shu Chuan the variant serves to awaken the advanced student to the possibilities in all the other forms.

CEB
28th October 2002, 14:46
Yes some kicks are hidden. I have been taught kicking applications from Seiunchin by a Sensei who trained in Okinawa many years. The interesting thing about this is Seiunchin kata appears to have no kicks. My favorite is a very close front kick type of thing when there is no room to bring the knee up.

Kicks are utilized in 4 of the 48 kumite techniques from the Bubishi. An interesting point is that the kicker loses all 4 times. That particular school or person must not have cared much for kicking.

fuwafuwausagi
28th October 2002, 16:10
Ed Boyd wrote:

Kicks are utilized in 4 of the 48 kumite techniques from the Bubishi. An interesting point is that the kicker loses all 4 times. That particular school or person must not have cared much for kicking.

My reply:

Just a slightly different view on this.

I would like you to consider that the composer(s) of the Bubishi may have practiced arts that might be classified as either internal CMA,or internal/external CMA. There are some other clues provided however in reference to stance that might favor internal/external systems.

Bearing in mind my previous commentary on "native culture" one has to consider that internal styles and internal/external styles simply do not favor a variety of overt kicking patterns in their forms.

Look at the ancestral white crane system, Tai Chi, BaGua, Hsing-yi for examples. Of course that does not mean the kicks are not there (see my post above), just that they are not overt.

Love him or hate him Erle Montaigue is known for stating "all kicks are useless anyways", which although blunt does not seem to be an isolated sentiment among internal or internal/external practitioners.

Excelsior,

fuwafuwausagi
28th October 2002, 16:15
Ed Boyd wrote:

Yes some kicks are hidden. I have been taught kicking applications from Seiunchin by a Sensei who trained in Okinawa many years. The interesting thing about this is Seiunchin kata appears to have no kicks.

My reply:

Is this a "hidden" "stance" that appears when you switch from one seiuchin stance to another (i.e. 180 stepping) and allows for an easy kick? I am very curious if we were taught the same thing in regard to this.

Ed also wrote:

My favorite is a very close front kick type of thing when there is no room to bring the knee up.

My reply:

Is this a whip type kick, or "old man's kick" that the Matsumura Seito people like? Curious...

CEB
28th October 2002, 21:50
Originally posted by fuwafuwausagi


Is this a "hidden" "stance" that appears when you switch from one seiuchin stance to another (i.e. 180 stepping) and allows for an easy kick? I am very curious if we were taught the same thing in regard to this.
Yes, that is one, if I am on the same page as you. When you move from Shiko dachi to Shiko dachi on a straight line one of the transitory postions can be a cat stance type of position and a front kick works well from there.





Originally posted by fuwafuwausagi

Is this a whip type kick, or "old man's kick" that the Matsumura Seito people like? Curious...

It is a very in close technique done from kihon or sanchin dachi. 'Old man's kick' sounds like a good description. The kick is chambered sort of like you are trying to kick yourself in the butt with your heel and the knee never rises. because if you are hip to hip with your opposition it may be really difficult to bring the knee up for kensetsu geri or mae geri. But if you are in an up close struggle a good wallop to the shins might work real good.

fuwafuwausagi
28th October 2002, 22:31
Mr. Boyd wrote:

Yes, that is one, if I am on the same page as you. When you move from Shiko dachi to Shiko dachi on a straight line one of the transitory postions can be a cat stance type of position and a front kick works well from there.

My reply:

I was taught a kosa-dachi, but since the cat stance is just another point on the line between a seiuchin stance and a kosa-dachi the difference is negligable.

Although I must confess I am glad I was not the only one taught this. I was beginning to think reall ydid dwell in my own little world of martial arts :)

Ed also wrote:

It is a very in close technique done from kihon or sanchin dachi. 'Old man's kick' sounds like a good description. The kick is chambered sort of like you are trying to kick yourself in the butt with your heel and the knee never rises. because if you are hip to hip with your opposition it may be really difficult to bring the knee up for kensetsu geri or mae geri. But if you are in an up close struggle a good wallop to the shins might work real good.

My reply:

Yes that is the one. Kise's Kenshikan people call it a whip kick. Soken Sensei was also fond of it I understand.

I truly appreciate the response.

All the best,

CEB
28th October 2002, 22:52
Actually kosa dachi may be a closer explantion to what I was trying to explain. My boy does Seito and he does a kosa where ankles look crossed. There is also one where it kind of looks like an off-center masubi dachi. ( maybe the feet are same in both and it is a matter of how the body is turned, I don't know much aboout Seito principles except they are different than Goju principles) The second one is kind of like the postion I was refering to. Just did the technique in my office I don't think anybody was looking in my window.

Take care.

Victor
29th October 2002, 13:22
Hi Ed,

Just a thought on the 48 self defense techniques in the Bubishi.

There is a very good case that they simply represent basic instruction in a system. A friend who's trained in a number of Northern Chinsese system maintains they're simplly basic instruction.

I've had the privilege of watching him do them from a Northern Eagle Claw perspective and one gains a different view than trying to overlay them with Okinawan karate. [Neither better or worse, just different.]

It seems to me the work represented by the Bubishi is more a students note book, not the end of all descriptions of a system.

From such perspective, the lack of demonstrated kicks, is neither good or bad. Just that perhaps they weren't included in the descriptions perserved.

At the same time the techniques demonstrated are more the opening motion of the defense being applied, and not a step by step demonstration. So kicking may be involved, but only the opening was kept to jog the 'students' memory for the future.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

CEB
29th October 2002, 20:43
I also believe that it is the case that the Bubishi was someone's personal notes on some sort of martial art studies. I but have hope that they be the notes of someone of considerable knowledge. After all it is the ‘bible of karate’. The entire work just seems so disjointed that it is hard for me to believe it is anything other than somebody’s personal notes. It doesn’t have any sort of continuity or central theme for it to be an attempt at anything literary and as you said is sure isn’t comprehensive enough to be a treatise on a particular Gung Fu system.

I’ve always kept a notebook and always took notes. I am not quite as religious about it as I used to be. But still when I go to gasshuku or go see Sensei down in Oklahoma I always take a notebook. I have 2 really big 3 ring binders of this stuff that I have written down over the years. My little stick people are pretty pathetic looking and most of it only makes sense to me and it isn’t even remotely close to Bubishi quality material. But, wouldn’t it be funny if the holy book of Goju Ryu was just this, just the notes of some lowly practitioner student. :laugh:

Victor
30th October 2002, 03:25
Hi again Ed,

When it comes to the Bubishi its really difficult to say what may have been the case. I've never seen an 'original' copy, and only re-drawn ones, to the best of my knowledge.

Perhaps an original copy could be analyzed to determine if it came from one source or was a compilation of different sources, by analyzing the author's handwriting.

In lieu of that, it makes as much sense to say it was a 'student's notes', or it was an accomplished adept's notes, or it was a senior instructor's notes, or it was a compilation of different martial sources into one location. And all of them are likely answers.

On the other hand, except for Tuttle's hyperbole, I'm not sure the Bubishi was really the 'Bible of Karate'. It existed and certainly may have been used in some instances, but whether it was involved in any in-depth usage isn't clearly seen.

How many Okinawan karateka could read the Chinese it was written in?

It does seem to be more crib notes, than a complete description.

It doesn't seem to have made most Okinawan's want to document their own practices.

And, outside of a reading curiosity, how many really use it today?

I've done a bit of analysis on the topic, and really haven't seen its inclusion in programs to any extent.

Just some observations,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
Derry, NH, USA
www.funkydragon.com/bushi

Sidarta
3rd November 2002, 05:28
Originally posted by Andy Watson
My understanding was that traditionally karate did not contain heaps of kicks anyway and many of the kicks found in mainstream shotokan/shotokai were introduced by Funakoshi's son, mawashi-geri for example, which I don't think is in any of the shorin style katas.

In my short experience with Shorin (Kobayashi line) I have seen mawashi-geri being used in kihon but not in kata.
Most of the kihon we practice were dveloped by Yoshihide Shinzato sensei through the last 4 decades.
Just the other day I was talking to a guy who is a sandan in the Isshin Ryu and he told me that move does not exist in his school. Since it derived directly from Shorin Ryu, I assume that, as Mr. Andy Watson said, originaly mawashi geri was probably not a part of the school.
One thing I know for sure is that ura mawashi geri was introduced to Kobayashi Shorin Ryu recently.

Cheers,

Sidarta de Lucca

Steve C
14th November 2002, 18:56
One musing I've had is that it might be related to another of the hidden/missing parts of kata - grappling techniques.

The hands beat the feet in several ways, but one of the most important, I think, is that a hand can grab, pull, and lock as well as strike. The versatility of the hands is important.

Grappling is well hidden in kata; what you see is a series of blocks and strikes. If that's all they were, then it's reasonable to ask why there aren't more foot strikes. But I think, if you look at a lot of the hand strikes, they flow on to other moves that you just can't do with the legs. A strike becomes a grab, controlling your opponent, or a block is really a joint break or a grab-breaker.

You use the hands because they put you in control of your opponent in a way that kicks can't.

Sporting and sparring rules disallow grappling, to the art's detriment, I think. But when you can't grab, pull, and twist, the hand becomes a simple striking implement, comparable to the foot - and the foots stronger, so why not use it more?

Maybe the kata contain few kicks simply because a foot's a lousy tool to use, one that's no more versatile than a club? It's best use in a real fight is as a finisher, once the opponent's held or stunned?

Consider the wrist lock in Bassai Dai, for example (shotokan style.) A few knifehands forward, one back, and a wrist lock that ties up both of your hands - so you use your feet because they are available.

Similarly, at the end of Heian Yondan, there's a knee that comes in, again, once your opponent is nicely controlled with the hands.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts, and I'd be interested in hearing other people's opinions.