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Prince Loeffler
25th October 2002, 19:24
Hello All !

Anyone here versed enough of the historical or traditional significance of a seated bow?

Besides the obvious "just the way I was thought" or "show respect to dojo, classmates and teacher"


So far my understanding is that back in the old days where the samurais (sp) would place their sword on the left side, then left arm extends out first to show that " I am unarm" or "I respect you" followed with the right arm.


Does the forehead really touches the floor when bowing ? are the hand suppose to be close togther that it forms a triangle ? or are they suppose to be wide apart ?

Any insight on this is greatly appreciated.

Prince Loeffler

hyaku
26th October 2002, 02:10
Ogasawara Reiho was among one of the first It was taught to the Kamakura Shogunate and was adopted nationaly as a standardized form of etiquette.

There are methods of bowing from both standing and sitting.

Nowadays there are many adapted methods that dont really resemble the old way anymore. All mixed up with militaristic, tea ceremonies whatever.

As most young Japanese can't even sit in seiza for five minutes they cant even sit long enough to do correct etiquette anyway. In one way its a good thing. The sooner they get of the floor, stop squatting over toilets and start using chairs the better. Its funny to go to South East Asia to see everyone sitting in restaurants and bars on chairs and the Japanese sitting on dirty ground taking in the we Japanese these gaijin mode.

I take the trouble to use a particular breathing method in bowing but dont see many others do so. But with what has been decribed as breath that would knock down a Rhino at 50 yards its probably a good thing they dont anyway.

The mans bow seems to have become more militaristic/macho in nature. before men and women did a stading bow with the hands brought slightly forward

I was taught the methods you speak of when I first started sword practice. But they do vary according to the Ryu you study.

Since then with more experience of older classical stuff I do not do as you mention
anymore.

The oldest records I have wrote in the late 1600s state that I should enter an area with the sword already in the obi. On formal occasions start with the sword on the right, finish on the left. That is if you can sit down as swords were used outside not inside

This is the procedure of a certain ryu but I sometimes wonder if it was not perhaps a standardized method of that particular period.

If you dont belong to a ryu you have to do what is recommended by your association or whatever you consider to be polite.

Yes.. basicaly you form a triangle with the hands but the head is about twenty centimetres up as you should keep a staight back. Go down to low and your backside come up.

This site will give you more insight into the significance and traditional aspects.

http://www.ogasawara-ryu.com/en/indexe.html

Regards Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

Prince Loeffler
26th October 2002, 05:01
Hyakutake Colin

Thank you for the explanation...The web links are fanstastic !! I will truly enjoy it tonight.

I guess As time change so too the way of traditions. I often wonder 20 years from now of how different it will be.

Thanks again

Prince LOeffler

MarkF
26th October 2002, 13:30
Other than what has been said, it seems bowing is along the lines of shaking hands. "I am unarmed and welcome you" was one explanation.

I've bowed so many times that you would think I would have it built i, but when at other schools, ryu, or seminars, I generally give it a split second wait just to watch how it is done there.

There is a simple explanation in the book Kodokan Judo, but rather than state why, it simply gives the instructions which are pretty much what others do. It does explain what to do with the hands, both in sitting or standing. I've heard some very strange sounds coming out of the person next to me, though, and have seen peoples eyes move around under their eyelids.

Ok, I cheat, but I fully expect to do things just that way the next time I am there.;)

PS: Breathing a certain way is in the general commands of the senpai, anyway so that much Japanese I've learned.


Mark