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Janin
29th October 2002, 01:00
I have read on some message boards that some people thought the Bujinkan was a Cult. What do you people think of this statement?


Timothy Craig
Budo Taijutsu

Karyu
29th October 2002, 06:05
Why certainly! Don't you know we ceremoniously sacrifice goats in accordance with all cult rituals? Kool-Aid anyone...?

fifthchamber
29th October 2002, 14:47
Hi all.

"Why certainly! Don't you know we ceremoniously sacrifice goats in accordance with all cult rituals? Kool-Aid anyone"

.....Ah! Yeah, but that counts as Tameshigiri surely? Thats training...NOT cultish behaviour!
Personally, I took up the practice after watching the final scenes with a cow in "Apocalypse Now" and have never looked back...;)
A cult? Not close at all...IMHO.
Abayo.

kimq
29th October 2002, 16:51
Didn't you know that whenever someone is promoted we sacrifice a chicken? :D

Onmitsu
29th October 2002, 17:50
I think this statement could possibly hold true for a lot of Martial arts orginizations. However 'Cult' is purely a subjective value judgement. In Bob Larson's 'book of cults' he lists what he feels that most cults have in common:
1)a centralized authority that tightly structures both philosophy and life-style;
2)a "we" versus "they" complex, pitting the supposed superior insights of the group against a hostile outside culture;
3)a commitment for each member to proselytize intensively the unconverted; and
4)an entrenched isolationism that divorces the devotee from the realities of the world at large.

Based on the above definition I have witnessed 'cult-like' behaviour from some Bujinkan members but I don't feel that this reflects the orginization on the whole. There are just a few individuals out there (perhaps owing to youth) that seem to have come to study Ninjutsu as an answer to every question in their lives. Some people just don't have much of a life to begin with and getting a foothold in something as deep and profound as budo can easily become all encompassing.

My bottom line answer is 'No'

Marc Renouf
29th October 2002, 23:50
Actually, let's take a look at these more closely...

"1)a centralized authority that tightly structures both philosophy and life-style"

Good gods. If only this were true. If we actually had some centralized authority, maybe there wouldn't be so many flakes, charlatans, and idiots among us. But alas, for better or for worse soke pretty much lets the ship steer itself.

"2)a "we" versus "they" complex, pitting the supposed superior insights of the group against a hostile outside culture"

The only "we" vs. "they" I typically see in the Bujinkan is either a) internal, or b) dealing with the Genbukan and Jinenkan. And quite frankly, most of that boils down to semantics and personal history.

"3)a commitment for each member to proselytize intensively the unconverted"

While there are some instructors that do this, there are just as many who go out of there way to only attract students who they feel are willing to stick with it. Mass conversion just means a more crowded hombu, dontcha know...

"4)an entrenched isolationism that divorces the devotee from the realities of the world at large"

Quite the contrary, soke is constantly telling people that the only way to truly appreciate budo is to make it a part of the realities of your life and the world at large.

So yeah, pretty much definitively not cult-like. That said, there will always be instructors who try to clothe themselves in cult-like mystique and those students who are cult-like in their devotion to their instructors. But this is true of any martial art, and indeed virtually any human organization.

trickyricky69
30th October 2002, 03:23
I quit sacrificing a live chicken, they squirm too much.....

Instead I now get a bucket of KFC and also partake of the traditional pre-fight donut. Then I have a big heaping glass of Flavor-aid, or kool-aid, or some gator-ade......maybe that's too much info?

On a serious note, when I trained at the Gadsden Dojo with my cousin,
he told me about a local TKD school which told everyone in town they were satanists, and their tabi were supposed to symbolize cloven hooves of the devil. They also were responsible for hild sacrifice.

However some of the students of said school showed up one night and found we weren't a cult. They walked in and said some of this, proceeded to tell us we were gonna get beat down, and put on their sparring gear.

My cousin, the sensei, and another student there proceeded to take them apart. Then to pick with them, the sensei looked at one who was on the floor, and told my cousin to,"Get the sacrificial dagger."

We never heard from them again.

I say let people think what they want, for we know we're not a cult.

God Bless,
Ricky Holladay
Attalla, AL
Trickyricky69

Ka1yama
30th October 2002, 06:18
3)a commitment for each member to proselytize intensively the unconverted; and

4)an entrenched isolationism that divorces the devotee from the realities of the world at large.

I feel ninjutsu training has the opposite effect. People who really do ninjutsu don't advertise it to those who don't. You see more WWJD
t-shirts than you see "I do Ninjutsu" T-shirts. Aslo from my perspecitve ninjutsu is to sharpen your individual living skills and break waya from the societal/cult BS of watching friends, or happy hour with people you can't stand from work. That seems more cult like in my opinion. Why do we as intelligent people do things like that? At least with training there is a reason.

I don't think isolationism is the best way to describe ninjutsu/Bujinkan either. People who take this type of training to heart have a better outlook on life and tend to have better relationships with people, it radiates so to speak, I feel it did in my case.

Neil Stewart
:beer:

Bufu Ikan
30th October 2002, 17:19
When people don't understand something they usually clasify it in a catergory that they see fit. I think whoever wrote this article falls in this category.

Onmitsu
30th October 2002, 20:01
Well, we planned killing ourselves with poison as soon as the next Comet flies by, because it is a spacecraft waiting for us. Does that make us a cult?

Janty,
I always knew there was something wierd about you...:look:

Tamdhu
30th October 2002, 21:54
Bujinkan training is self-directed. YOU have to find a teacher or group. YOU have to drag your ass to training. YOU have to try to make sense of what's going on. YOU have to ask questions when you don't understand. YOU have to work things out on your own or not.

Nobody calls if you stop training, unless maybe you've developed a friendship with someone who still is. No one really knows or cares if you bow in or don't, or say "Shi kin, haramitsu" or "Shuriken, cool! Taijutsu!"

It's all up to you.

It's your show and no one else's.

Good luck.

Does that sound like a cult? Not to me it doesn't, but maybe the Bujinkan is just a really clever cult that gains even more glassy-eyed adherents every day by simply not behaving like a cult at all...yeah, that's the ticket.