PDA

View Full Version : Does this just bother me?



TimJurgens
31st October 2002, 09:38
Hello all,

Am I the only one that gets irritated when people put the word Combat in the title of what ever art they are now doing? The best example of where this does not fit well is Combat Aikido. Ueshiba O-Sensei would probably do mai-ukemi in his figurative grave if that were uttered near it. I remember when I became a Marine Combat Insturctor of Water Survival. I always wondered why the Combat part of the name was necessary. Basically we taught people how to swim with all of their feild gear on, and how to rescue those that did not learn as well we would have hoped. Those skills certainly were not restricted to combat. I guess the work combat just makes it sound tougher.

Yours in budo,

Tim Jurgens

A peacetime instructor of Shorinryu

31st October 2002, 11:03
Tim,

You are absolutely right.
First off, if I were going into REAL combat I would not use any empty hand martial art or even kobudo that is around today. I would use the biggest damn gun I could find preferably the Mk 19 Mod 3 40mm machinegun. (photo below). After I had blown away my intended targets I might walk over and kick what's left of them to make sure they are dead.......




Just a little background info on this "Combat" bad boy

The Mk 19 fires 60 rounds/minute in rapid fire and has a 325 to 375 rounds/minute cyclic rate. Its maximum range is 2,200 meters (2,405 yards) and a maximum effective range of 1,550 meters (1,695 yards). Muzzle velocity of the grenade is 790 feet/second. Overall length is 41.5 inches (Mk 19 Mod 3).

Weight is 72.5 pounds (Mk 19 Mod 3), without mount.

The high-explosive, dual-purpose (HEDP) M430/M430A1 grenade can penetrate up to 2 inches of armor. The grenade has a kill radius of 5 meters (16.5 feet) and wounding radius of 15 meters (50 feet). Grenade arming distance is 15 to 30 meters (50 to 110 feet).

Rob Alvelais
31st October 2002, 14:46
Originally posted by Robert Rousselot
Tim,

Just a little background info on this "Combat" bad boy

<snip>

The high-explosive, dual-purpose (HEDP) M430/M430A1 grenade can penetrate up to 2 inches of armor. The grenade has a kill radius of 5 meters (16.5 feet) and wounding radius of 15 meters (50 feet). Grenade arming distance is 15 to 30 meters (50 to 110 feet).


Wait a minute. I thought you pressure point boys were into precision strikes?
:confused:

Rob:laugh:

CEB
31st October 2002, 15:04
You mean this thing is like a full auto version of a M203. Damn!

Hank Irwin
31st October 2002, 17:14
Hey guys, been out for awhile. RobertSan, gun reminds me of Anaku, Hahahaha! I have heard it called the "Machine Gun Kata" I guess because of the explosive punches in it. Any of you guys ever go to one of these "Combat" dojos? I have been to a few, ain't no combat involved. One of them is called Modern Martial Arts Assoc. For the most part, they are hodge-podge schools. The infacince being on the revenue. It's unfortunate but, many of our supposedly Ko-ryu schools are filled with only combat notions, not reality. Most will run from combat. But the public will see what they want to see. By the way, the only combat aikido I have ever seen is old aiki-ko-ryu, and usually involves weapons. If you take away the buki it is no longer combat, but life protection. The old Shaolin adage of Mame rather than cripple, cripple rather than kill. Killing being the last resort. This is not combat by any means. I teach Shorinji-ryu Ko-ryu. It has all the elements of combat, for the most part it scares the hell out of most, Hahahaha!! But I love it. RyuKyu Kempo is the same, as are many other Uchina derived MA. With the way things are going it is up to US to keep the candle lite. I have seen some get seriously hurt thinking that their "combat" MA will get them through. You must remember, to use combatives, you must commit yourself to death. Without this, doubt will creep in, and you will be crushed. It's a hard realization when you find out you may die because you lack REAL combat experience. Fighting with open hand is just that, fighting. But with buki involved you can see the smiling faces of death.

Jodan omite! :D

31st October 2002, 21:48
Originally posted by Rob Alvelais



Wait a minute. I thought you pressure point boys were into precision strikes?
:confused:

Rob:laugh:


It is a precision strike.........it's just a precision strike with a 5 meter radius ! :D :D

31st October 2002, 21:50
Originally posted by CEB
You mean this thing is like a full auto version of a M203. Damn!

Aint it saaaaweeet!!!:D

TimJurgens
1st November 2002, 08:35
Organic as in maintained on the company or battery level. Second would have to be the M2HB 50 Calibre machine gun. In an artilery battery each vehicle is equiped with one or the other. Since there are 2 5 ton trucks per tube and 4 -6 tubes per battery (depending on when you served) that is just a whole lot of firepower. The sweet thing about it all is that we haven't started taking about the 155 and 105 mm field pieces!

Now that is combat gear.

Kind of makes an elbow extending technique sound silly when you apply the word combat to it doesn't it?

One of the greatest Generals of American History Lewis B. Puller said that of all the leadership traits he valued endurance above all; he even valued it above courage. He thought it did not matter much how brave you were if you were unable to march 30 miles to close with the enemy.

Maybe we should teach combat walking with a 60 lbs kit. Good night Chesty Puller where ever you are.

Yours in budo,

Tim Jurgens

1st November 2002, 08:43
I had to look up this BadBoy since I didn't know what it looked like.
(photo below)
Another sweet "combat" tool.

SPECIFICATIONS

ORIGIN: United States.
TYPE; Heavy machine gun.
DIMENSIONS: Length overall - 65.2in (1,656mm); barrel - 45in (1,143mm).
WEIGHT: Empty - 841b (38.15kg).
CARTRIDGE: 0.50 Browning (12.7 x 99mm).
FEED: Short recoil; disintegrating link belt.
RIFLING: 8 grooves, right hand.
MUZZLE VELOCITY: Standard rounds - 2,900ft/s (883m/s); SLAP rounds'- 3,985ft/s (1,215m/s).
RATE OF FIRE: 485-635rpm
MAXIMIUM EFFECTIVE RANGE: Standard rounds - 2,600yd (2,380m); SLAP rounds - 1,640yd (1,500m).
SIGHTING: Peep
COOLANT: Air

Hank Irwin
1st November 2002, 13:33
Wow RobertSan, nice "tool" of the trade. Hey JohnSan, I like the E-Boo Do thingy, Hahaha!

Andy Watson
1st November 2002, 15:29
Hey guys, what about this one...

COMBAT KI !!!!!

Ha ha ha ha

:moon: Have that Dr Rod/Ron/Rob whatever.

TimJurgens
3rd November 2002, 04:13
It is a precision strike.........it's just a precision strike with a 5 meter radius !

It is a little larger than 5 meters. The definition of kill radius is that area within which 50% of the people will be killed. It will reach out farther than that.

The best combat maneuver I saw was when the men from G Battery 2/10 laid in their tube for a hip shoot in under 45 seconds. That involves going from a situation where they are in the back of a 5 ton driving down the road to where they have the gun set up and fired. The scenario is supposed to simulate what they will do if they come over a hill and find an enemy tank. That is probably still too slow to beat a tank but a darn impressive effort considering all that is involved. Stop the truck, jump over the sides, unhook the gun, load the projectile, load a powder bag, lock the breech, all the while the crew is moving the gun by hand using the rails. The crew chief sites her in and yanks the cord. Tracking, tracking, tracking, bang!

Good stuff.

Much better than Combat Ki.

Yours in budo,

Tim

hjnorris
4th November 2002, 17:46
I've got a school down the street that teaches 'Combat Hapkido'.

My personal favorite is 'Power Kombat Yoga'...

:D

5th November 2002, 07:51
Tim,

Another Gen. Puller story:

General Lewis B. Puller epitomized the Marine Corps ethic of teamwork in Korea when he broke out of the Chinese stronghold around the Chosin Reservoir where he and his valiant Marines were completely surrounded. And, he did so while bringing with him all of his dead and wounded Marines, along with all of his equipment, and tons of gear left abandoned by the Army.

TimJurgens
6th November 2002, 07:36
For which he was awarded his fifth Navy Cross.

6th November 2002, 07:40
Originally posted by TimJurgens
For which he was awarded his fifth Navy Cross.


Which would probably make him somewhat of an expert on what was "combat" effective.

tetsu
6th November 2002, 13:35
It's kind of sad when a thread like this is the only
active thread in this subforum.

This belongs in a random chat forum not in Ryukyuan Kobudo.

John Tetsu

TimJurgens
7th November 2002, 09:45
This belongs in a random chat forum not in Ryukyuan Kobudo.

Probably but I don't bother with any other forums.

Sorry if this is messing with your Wa.

7th November 2002, 09:57
Originally posted by tetsu


This belongs in a random chat forum not in Ryukyuan Kobudo.

John Tetsu


Then perhaps you have some Ryukyu Kobudo topic you would like to discuss............

Doug Daulton
17th December 2002, 17:14
Originally posted by tetsu
It's kind of sad when a thread like this is the only
active thread in this subforum.

This belongs in a random chat forum not in Ryukyuan Kobudo.

John Tetsu John,

As your moderator, I apologize. I have been AWOL due to RL work commitments. That said, topic digressions are OK as long as they do not become a habit, which none of the gentleman in question are known to do.

Bringing this thread back on topic ...

I do find it mildly annoying when poseurs throw combat into the title of a book/article/video. Generally, it is an attention tactic. Often, it is ignorance.

However, martial arts is the biggest misnomer of all. Martial implies military origin and practice. Most of what are called martial arts are not martial at all, in either origin or modern practice.

The International Hoplology Society (http://hoplology.com/) makes what I consider a valid and valuable distinction. The IHS refers to all "martial arts" as "combative arts" which is more accurate in my opinion. This larger category is further broken down into martial/military combative arts (Katori Shinto Ryu, Marine Bayonet Systems, etc.) and civilian/civil defense combative arts(karatedo, Ryukyuan kobudo, etc.).

A more modern analog would be the discipline of shooting from a military as opposed to law enforcement perspective. Both use handguns and other small arms, but the tactics and discipline are different because the application is different.

Case in point, the meaning and use of "cover me". In military terms, "cover me" is generally a request for covering or suppressing fire. In law enforcement terms, "cover me" is generally a request to point one's weapon at points where threats may emerge and be prepared to engage hostile targets if they appear. Both involve providing an ally/colleague with a relatively safe environment in which to move advance. However one involves actual fire of the weapon. *

In short, if used intelligently and for the right aim, combat as part of a description of a technique or system can be valid and useful. However, most folks use it erroneously and/or for self-serving aims.

Regards,

Doug Daulton

* Note: I've never served in the military or law enforcement. However, I have had lengthy conversations with individuals who have as well as some LE training. The above represents my understanding. I invite military or LE personnel to clarify or rebuff my comments as needed for accuracy.

Hank Irwin
18th December 2002, 03:32
It is with the past that we learn the methods of warfare, the only things that have changed is by way of military might and the almighty dollar. There once was a different time . Many martial practices have become just that, when once there was a need for such techniques just to stay alive. Hand to hand has basically stayed the same. The only difference being the playing field. Bayonet training, sniper tactics/stealth tc's have also. The modern engagements of war have less a bearing on direct hand to hand, thus, less of a need for pugilism. Where does that leave us as Martial Artists? Holding on to the past for me, I guess. :D