PDA

View Full Version : Sagawa Yukiyoshi and DR Succession



O'Neill
1st November 2002, 20:34
Considering that he was to head up daito ryu if Tokimune died, I would suppose that Sagawa sensei had learned the menkyo kaiden techniques or they would have been lost. He is said to have had an amazing knowledge of all aspects of daito ryu, I also heard that he was versed in Koryu jujutsu. It doesn't seem likely that the Takeda family would have passed the art on to someone who didn't have all of the content. This was around the time of the war and tokimune could have been lost. Would the takeda family have allowed sections of the art to die with Tokimune? Anyone know about the issues surrounding this topics?

Erin O'Neill

Nathan Scott
1st November 2002, 22:38
[Post deleted by user]

Chris Li
2nd November 2002, 01:10
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
This is an interesting question. It is safe to assume that in the case of an early death by a headmaster, sections of the art are lost.

Ueshiba Sensei received the Goshin'yo no Te in 1936, and it has been stated by Kondo Sensei and Stan Pranin that this was the highest level of initiation available at that time. This is the same rank awarded to Sagawa Sensei.

In 1939, Takuma Hisa was awarded a Menkyo Kaiden - perhaps the first. So the question I can't find the answer to in my brief search is what year Tokimune Sensei entered the military. It would have been just previous to or during WWII. Everyone knows that Japan entered WWII in 1941 by attacking Pearl Harbor, but I don't know enough about WWII to know what Japan was doing in the years prior to 1941. In any event, it would be helpful to know what year Tokimune Sensei entered the military.

Depending on the date, it could be that Sagawa Sensei did have "full transmission" for the time, as did Ueshiba Sensei. I get the impression that Sagawa Sensei did not keep strong ties with the Takeda's sometime after Tokimune Sensei's return from the military. This could be why he was not offered further ranks.

More information would be appreciated though.

I have heard that Sagawa was asked to take over because they weren't sure whether Tokimune would make it back from the war or not, but I don't know the exact years.

Interestingly, in "Tomei na Chikara" there is a picture of a letter from Tokimune designating Sagawa as the 36th Soke of Daito-ryu - the letter is dated January 1954 (Showa 29). According to the caption in the book (written, I assume, by Tatsuo Kimura) Sagawa gave up the position two years later (1956, Showa 31) and became "souhan" (same "sou" as in "soke", same "han" as in "shihan").

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
2nd November 2002, 02:04
[Post deleted by user]

Chris Li
2nd November 2002, 02:23
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Interesting info Chris - thanks for offering it. I've got to learn more Japanese.

I'll try to translate that letter when I can fit it in.

Regards,

It lists his accomplishments, and says that he had received instruction in all of the scrolls of Daito-ryu (and actually lists them, which is pretty interesting).

Best,

Chris

Prince Loeffler
2nd November 2002, 19:48
Sorry to intrude like this, This message is actually for Nathan Scott San. I had the oppurtunity to view your site and it was fascinating. I believe you are located in Hermosa Beach ? My school is in Redondo Beach.

The reason for this post is I have always been interested in Kenjutsu, The closest that I have ever studied this art was with Matsouka Sensei, unfortunately he is a little further away from me.



Please let me know how I can email you privately.

Thanks

Prince Loeffler

Mark Jakabcsin
3rd November 2002, 14:35
"Everyone knows that Japan entered WWII in 1941 by attacking Pearl Harbor, but I don't know enough about WWII to know what Japan was doing in the years prior to 1941. "

Nathan,
1941 is when Japan attacked the US and the US entered the war but Japan had been in WWII since the mid 30's. By 1941, Japan had already been involved in such lovely events as the Rape of Nanking, all in the name of budo by the way. Some estimates have them murdering as much as 10% of the population of northern China. By 1941, I believe Unit 731 had all ready been active and Japan had already done a few acts of biological warfare, oh all in the name of budo. The point is by 1941 Japan had already captured huge portions of the Pacific Rim and had been growing their military for over a decade. As for when T. Takeda joined the military I don't know but it could have been anytime during the 30's.

Two eye opening books to read:
Rape of Nanking
Unit 731

Do a search on Amazon, there are a few books with those titles. Even Stephen King would be hard pressed to write more graphic or horrifying literature. After reading these I personally I would never purchase an antique Japanese sword for fear that it had been used in China to decide bets amoung soldiers and officers on the sex of unborn children.
mark

Nathan Scott
3rd November 2002, 19:55
[Post deleted by user]

ghp
3rd November 2002, 20:53
Hi Mark,
Japan had already been involved in such lovely events as the Rape of Nanking, all in the name of budo by the way... Well, I somewhat disagree. The Rape of Nanjin, the "medical" experimentations of Unit 731 (e.g., vivisections -- operations conducted on living patients without using anesthesia), and biological warfare were not done "in the name of budo." Photographic evidence proves beyond a shadow of doubt -- unless you're Japanese! -- that swords, bayonets, and everything else imgaginable were misused on the Chinese. And no doubt that helpless Chinese were used for bayonet training, sword killing techniques, and "amusement" games.

However, the Nanjin "Incident" [as the Japanese now call it] was an act of imperial expansionism ["Japanese Manifest Destiny"], performed in the name of the Emperor.

After Nanjin had fallen, atrocities were committed under the pseudonym of "mopping-up actions," "subduing the enemy," "combat training," "hardening the troops." The underlying, but never admitted, cause was RACISM.

Although "budo" was the tool of implementation, the atrocities were not "in the name of budo." [Normally I would quibble about applying the term "budo" to these sword/bayonet atrocities -- however, the Japanese military terminology for "combatives" was Jissen Budo; that is, "Real-Combat Martial Ways.]

Japanese atrocities in Nanjin were so terrible that Nazi diplomats [or was it an "Area Officer"?] stationed in China reported their shock to Berlin citing how terrible the "mopping up" actions were. If I recall correctly, the Nazis wanted Berlin to "advise" Japan to stop or risk public opinion turning against them.

Yecch! I hate this part of our system's history, but I refuse to ignore it.

"With an opinion,"
Guy

Mark Jakabcsin
3rd November 2002, 23:22
"Although "budo" was the tool of implementation, the atrocities were not "in the name of budo." "

Guy,
No arguement here. Your phrase is more along the lines of what I wanted to say but couldn't find the right words. Thanks for you input.


mark

ghp
3rd November 2002, 23:28
Hi Mark,
Your phrase is more along the lines of what I wanted to say but couldn't find the right words. I'm always more than willing to put words in other people's mouths ...:D

Cheers,
Guy

O'Neill
4th November 2002, 05:05
Where may I get a copy of Tomei na chikara? Thanks.

Erin O'Neill

Walker
4th November 2002, 07:36
I don’t have his name, but the Nazi functionary was shocked by events in Nanking as were the other Europeans and Americans present. They did what they could, but it wasn’t much.

The German did report, but was ignored. He didn’t seem to have much of an idea of what was coming for Europe and the world — perhaps a bit naive.

BTW - One of the ”Master Plans” was an alliance of Germany, Russia and Japan as visioned by a guy named Haushoffer who helped Hitler write Mein Kampf and taught Geopolitics in Munich. Together they could have created a sphere of influence that could rival the Anglo-Americans. Of course, Hitler screwed that one up by attacking Stalin to the horror of many of his advisors. Also working against the scheme were the close ties and sympathy Japan had with the British and Americans which disappeared Dec. 7.

Chris Li
4th November 2002, 07:44
Originally posted by O'Neill
Where may I get a copy of Tomei na chikara? Thanks.

Erin O'Neill

Amazon Japan - I don't know if they ship overseas. Kinokuniya has online ordering, and they do ship overseas, but usually only once a week (if you're in a hurry).

The book itself is almost all text, so don't buy it unless you can read Japanese well. OTOH, the language is fairly straightforward and the vocabulary is not that hard, so it's not one of the more difficult texts to read.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
4th November 2002, 17:55
[Post deleted by user]

O'Neill
4th November 2002, 18:03
One may wonder why Takuma Hisa received the menkyo kaiden in such a short time of training as compared to his other students? Hisa was only with Ueshiba for 3 years and then with Takeda for three as well.
There is no disrespect in my question towards this branch (takumakai) of daito ryu but that seems very fast, considering that he had students who had more training a few decades earlier. Any thoughts anyone?

Erin O'Neill

Arman
4th November 2002, 19:30
This is an interesting question. Stan Pranin addressed this issue during his lecture at the recent DR seminar. He concluded that whatever Takuma Hisa learned, and whatever his talents, he could not have learned the entire curriculum of DR in such a short period of time.

OTOH, trying to determine what exactly comprised the entire DR curriculum before Tokimune took over is also problematic. As we know, Sokaku mostly taught in seminar-type environments to thousands of students, and supposedly never taught the same technique twice. He also, however, taught a "core curriculum" to his personal students, like Ueshiba, as indicated by the various scrolls he issued. For example, Ueshiba was given a densho (in addition to the kyoju dairi) that included the 118 hiden mokuroku, aiki no jutsu, goshinyo no te, and nito ryu techniques. This was before any menkyo kaidens were awarded, and this densho was considered at the time to be nearly equivalent to a menkyo kaiden. It is Stan Pranin's theory (in conjunction with Kondo Sensei's research) that it was during his stay at Asahi News when it was suggested to Sokaku that he award menkyo kaiden certificates in place of the previous densho (I believe it was called kaishaku soden, but I could be wrong - I don't clearly remember what Stan Pranin called it at the lecture) to keep more in line with the classical traditions.

Kondo Sensei brought with him one of these densho and let everone come up to the table to examine it. Apprently Kondo Sensei noticed that one of these densho was hanging on the wall of Ueshiba's dojo in an old photograph Stan showed him.

Given the ambiguous nature of what constituted the entire DR curriculum before Tokimune established a concrete organization of the techniques, it is hard to determine with certainty if Ueshiba or Takuma Hisa really received full transmission of the art.

Don't forget that there are other reasons certificates might be handed out, besides knowledge and talent. For example, one other individual at the Asahi News dojo was given a menkyo kaiden by Sokaku along with Takuma Hisa (don't remember his name). He was a rather old fellow who didn't practice much, but he was a senior representative and Sokaku awarded the menkyo kaiden as a kind of honorary degree. The man died not shortly afterward. By this time, Sokaku and Ueshiba had a kind of falling out. Perhaps there was more to awarding the menkyo kaiden to Takuma Hisa than just knowledge. But politics could never be a factor, right? Nah. :)

Anyway, this is to say nothing about Takuma Hisa's talent, which by all accounts was quite formidable. Who knows, maybe in five to six years of personal training with Ueshiba and then Sokaku, he could learn enough of the art to be considered for menkyo kaiden? If so, then he would be a rare talent, indeed. [Of course, Ueshiba studied with Sokaku for relatively "short" periods of time, as well. Three years here, another year there. I don't recall all their training history. So, who knows?]

Best regards,

Arman Partamian
Daito ryu Study Group
Maryland

L-Fitzgerald
4th November 2002, 20:39
Japan’s war began with the Shanghai incident of 1932, then later in Manchuria in 1936, and once again in China at the Marco Polo Bridge in Nanking in 1937, and ultimately conflict with the United States. However, during the “China Incident of 1937" at the Marco Polo Bridge in at Nanking no Japanese soldier was ever kidnapped. The Japanese escalated this incident and turned their response into an attack upon the city of Nanking, better known as the infamous “Rape of Nanking.” However, the brutality displayed by the Japanese during the occupation of Nanking was not intended to be merely be a brutalization of the local Chinese population, instead these actions were meant to intimidate the Chinese leader Chiang Kai-shek into capitulating to Japan and permit Japanese troops to occupy the strategic coastal regions of China. Most westerners are unaware that Chiang Kai-shek and many of Japan’s top military and political leaders were well acquainted with each other. In fact, Chiang had often fraternized with members of the Black Dragon Society while he was a student at the Japanese Military Academy in Tokyo in 1907. During the attack on Nanking in 1937, Prince Asaka, an uncle of the Emperor was personally appointed by the Emperor to this campaign thereby insuring that Chiang Kai-shek would understand how serious Japan was regarding its desire to extend its control over the northern regions of China, as well as Mongolia. The appointment of Prince Asaka was intended to insure that direct negotiations could be accomplished once Chiang Kai-shek had capitulated and surrendered at Nanking, and although Asaka’s counter-part in this military action, General Matsui continually tried to insure that Nanking and its occupants were to be treated with utmost care his orders regarding a peaceful occupation were constantly ignored. Both by Prince Asaka’s troops and by troops serving under the command of Lieutenant General Nakajima Kesago. It should also be noted that sixteen years earlier [in 1921] while serving in Paris with Army Intelligence this same Nakajima Kesago had been given the honor of being presented to “Crown Prince Hirohito,” Later in 1936 Emperor Hirohito appointed Nakajima as Chief of the Kempei [Secret Police] with orders to suppress the army rebellion and keep the peace in Tokyo. In 1945, the Chinese government, supported by eye witness accounts charged that Lieutenant General Nakajima’s 16th Division army units along with those of the 6th Division, under the leadership of Ashura Tani, more commonly known is history as “demon Ashura,” were directly responsible for taking the lives of 390,000 Chinese while advancing towards the city of Nanking. In addition to these casualties, Lieutenant General Nakajima was also known to have also attended to every detail regarding the Nanking atrocities, including the rape of approximately 20,000 women and murder of more than 200,000 men. After Nanking had been captured Emperor Hirohito expressed personal gratitude for this victory to Prince Kanin, his wife’s grand-uncle who was chief of Army General Staff during that time. Within six months of the capture of Nanking, the Emperor appointed three other members of the Imperial family to other important Army posts in China as well. Less than six months after Nanking had been ravaged, another member of the Imperial Family, a cousin [and devote fascist] of the Empress toured the area and in February 1938, provided the Emperor with a full report on what he had seen there. As for General Matsui, who was later executed as a war criminal for the Nanking atrocity, copies of his memoirs, orders and dairies which came to light in Japan during the 1970's indicate that he attempted to stop the slaughter at Nanking on many different occasions, but, failed because Prince Asaka’s and Lieutenant General Nakajima undermined his authority at every turn. At the end of the war General Matsui did not protest being tried as a war criminal because he felt it was his religious duty to accept this punishment in order to protect and absolve the Emperor of any blame. Other historians claiming the Emperor was not directly involved in any other foreign policy during the war are simply misleading the public and rewriting history. In fact, one Japanese professor of history who taught at Tokyo University and later at Harvard University, claims that the Rape of Nanking never took place. Further, he also claims that Japanese troops were actually protecting Chinese women from being brutalized by Chinese troops. One can only speculate as his interpretation of the situation regarding the abuse of Korean women during the war, known as Comfort Women, or that regarding western women captured in Hong Kong, Singapore or of the events that took place in Manila in 1944, when women, primarily student nurses were raped and murdered by Japanese troops under the command of General Mashita

In the early months of 1942, Emperor Hirohito personally dispatched Okamoto Kiyotomi, an intimate friend of his brother, Prince Chichibu to Switzerland in an effort to secure peace with the Allied forces. The Emperor felt that if Japan could secure a peace settlement they could continue to maintain control of the Dutch colonies of East Asia along with Cambodia, Burma, Malaysia, Laos and French-Indochina [Vietnam]. While history shows that these efforts failed, however, none of this was known until the 1960’s when personal diaries and other military documents were translated. The information these documents contained revealed the day-to-day activities of the Emperor and his top advisers during the closing days of the war. And because the war, as stated by the Emperor Hirohito in 1945, “…has developed not necessarily to Japan’s advantage,” the Emperor, along with his military and political leaders put together a plan that would ensure that the Emperor would be absolved of his part and that his military advisors would take responsibility for the war.

Unfortunately, just this past weekend History Channel International presented a view on Emperor Hirohito, and the revisionist were out in force stating once more to the world that it was his "power hungry military leaders that had led him astray."

But, it does provide one with a different perspective of history, one not taught or talked about in Japan.

L Fitzgerald

kimjohan
4th November 2002, 20:51
Originally posted by Chris Li


Amazon Japan - I don't know if they ship overseas. Kinokuniya has online ordering, and they do ship overseas, but usually only once a week (if you're in a hurry).

The book itself is almost all text, so don't buy it unless you can read Japanese well. OTOH, the language is fairly straightforward and the vocabulary is not that hard, so it's not one of the more difficult texts to read.

Best,

Chris

Hi.

I have tried searching both Amazon Japan and Kinokuniya in romaji and in hiragana, but to no result.
Could you be so kind as to post the ISBN number of the book?

Sincerely,
Kim Johansen.

O'Neill
5th November 2002, 01:53
Aikido no ogi.

I recently heard of this book as a primer on the technical skills of Sagawa Yukiyoshi. Anyone seen or own it?

Erin O'Neill

Chris Li
5th November 2002, 02:34
Originally posted by O'Neill
Aikido no ogi.

I recently heard of this book as a primer on the technical skills of Sagawa Yukiyoshi. Anyone seen or own it?

Erin O'Neill

I have it, it's by Yoshimaru Keisetsu, who also wrote "Aikido no Kagaku". Basically, it demonstrates a large number of techniques and links them to oral instruction that the author received from Sagawa.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
5th November 2002, 02:37
Originally posted by kimjohan


Hi.

I have tried searching both Amazon Japan and Kinokuniya in romaji and in hiragana, but to no result.
Could you be so kind as to post the ISBN number of the book?

Sincerely,
Kim Johansen.

ISBN:4062070774

Try searching on 透明な力

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
5th November 2002, 02:44
Originally posted by Arman
Given the ambiguous nature of what constituted the entire DR curriculum before Tokimune established a concrete organization of the techniques, it is hard to determine with certainty if Ueshiba or Takuma Hisa really received full transmission of the art.

I'd note that Noriaki Inoue recalled watching Sokaku Takeda rename and restructure the curriculum when he was a child, so the curriculum itself was still being reorganized even before it was once again systemized by Tokimune.

Best,

Chris

O'Neill
5th November 2002, 04:22
Thank you for the info. So the book is totally about daito ryu technique? The title threw me off a bit (aikido no ogi).

Erin O'Neill

Chris Li
5th November 2002, 05:30
Originally posted by O'Neill
Thank you for the info. So the book is totally about daito ryu technique? The title threw me off a bit (aikido no ogi).

Erin O'Neill

Basically, yes, he's a Daito-ryu guy. It's not all that uncommon for Daito-ryu folks in Japan to use the name "Aikido" as well.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
8th November 2002, 22:11
[Post deleted by user]

O'Neill
12th November 2002, 01:08
The mention of that many scrolls is interesting. Were these issued by Takeda sokaku or Tokimune? This is very interesting indeed. Maybe sections of the art that noone else has. Man, daito ryu sure is some puzzle and one with many pieces.

Erin O'Neill

Nathan Scott
12th November 2002, 20:51
[Post deleted by user]

Nathan Scott
13th November 2002, 01:03
[Post deleted by user]

Dan Harden
14th November 2002, 12:38
I'd note that Noriaki Inoue recalled watching Sokaku Takeda rename and restructure the curriculum when he was a child, so the curriculum itself was still being reorganized even before it was once again systemized by Tokimune.

Best,

Chris

***********************
Chris
Where did you read this?
I just finished the series of interviews with him by Stan Pranin. The only thing I found was where they would write the scrolls for him which is typical of others experiences as well.

"We wrote for example the contents of the first technique (ikkajo), the second, the third, and so on. However I became angry at Sokaku Sensei for dividing the techniques into first, second, and third techniques. The first should be the most basic..........
Takeda said "Oh I see You're saying that again."
end of quote.
I combine that with all previous interviews listing the same order, the implied order from unrelated schools (and people) and it leads me to think that the listings didn't change but remained the same. Inoue's strong personality aside- I dont' see that it affected a change.
Do you have something further?
cheers
Dan

Nathan Scott
20th November 2002, 08:04
[Post deleted by user]

Nathan Scott
10th January 2003, 19:42
[Post deleted by user]

Brently Keen
10th January 2003, 21:19
Nathan,

Thanks, it looks like Stanley has corroborated more or less what I'd heard through the grapevine.

What you've concluded pretty much jives with what I've understood to be the case. At any rate, the letter/postcard was not universally accepted by the other branches/senior students of Sokaku. And was also viewed with much skepticism. At any rate, Sagawa apparently never actually assumed the role, at least not for any length of time.

With regard to "Seito Soden" are you sure this is an actual densho that was awarded? My understanding was that it was merely a referrence to what the author(s) felt Sagawa had learned and/or achieved.

If this letter was in fact from Tokimune this would be understandable since Sagawa was quite senior to Tokimune and their relationship was apparently closer, at least for some time. Did Munekiyo have any known relationship with Sagawa? Was Sagawa teaching either of them - are either of them listed in Sagawa's enrollment books?

Given the frequent travels and teaching activities of Sokaku, and Tokimune's own comments about his father being mostly absent from the home while he was growing up - I personally wonder if Tokimune didn't learn as much from Sagawa as he did from his father. I've also heard numerous times that Tokimune actually learned DR mostly from his mother who also trained in DR. I do not however know the truth or certainty of that. I also wonder if anyone else has had anything to say about those possibilities?

Brently Keen

Chris Li
10th January 2003, 22:03
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Chris - does Kimura Sensei discuss this subject any further in his book?

Not that I recall offhand, just the photo and the caption in the front of the book...


Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
10th January 2003, 22:20
[Post deleted by user]