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janjensen
3rd November 2002, 14:25
Hi all,

Now i have figuret out that if you are in the Bujinkan, then you are not allowed to go to Genbukan and Jinenkan seminar, workshops etc.
But what if you are in the Jinenkan or Genbukan, are you then allowed to go to a Bujinkan seminar, and will Bujinkan late you in to the seminar ?
What about the Jinenkan and Genbukan, does they go to each others seminars ?

I hope you can help it is a little hard to keep track of all the rules...

John Lindsey
3rd November 2002, 15:18
I have never heard of any rule that Genbukan members cannot attend other seminars, but few have ever done so. The 'taste' of the budo is different between the 3 kans, but not so much between Buj and Jin. That is why you probably have more people from the Bujinkan sneaking into the Jinenkan seminars or buying the videos. Without a doubt, Manaka S. is teaching more formal ryuha kata faster than anyone else.

Norm
3rd November 2002, 17:33
We have had a few Genbukan people come to our seminars/open training from time to time.

Found it funny, but they were never not accepted.

icynorth
3rd November 2002, 17:35
You should be able to train where you wish.

R Erman
3rd November 2002, 17:50
Originally posted by icynorth
You should be able to train where you wish.

I completely agree, as you are the only person responsible for your growth. However, if you willingly join an organization, you should follow their rules.

Oni
3rd November 2002, 22:50
At one of the last Bujinkan seminars I went to there was a guy from the Jinenkan. No one seemed to be too worried about...all were just having a good time :)

R Erman
3rd November 2002, 23:26
Originally posted by Oni
At one of the last Bujinkan seminars I went to there was a guy from the Jinenkan. No one seemed to be too worried about...all were just having a good time :)

Hopefully, someday that's what it will all be about. No more of the political BS. I think it will eventually get there:eek:

kimq
4th November 2002, 04:04
Originally posted by R Erman


Hopefully, someday that's what it will all be about. No more of the political BS. I think it will eventually get there:eek:

Politics will exist when there are more than two people involved in anything. It's human nature.

tcasella
4th November 2002, 06:43
I'm a little late coming to this thread; However, I have to agree with Mr. Gibb (IcyNorth)...You should be able to train where you like. Somebody had mentioned different flavors within the -Kan's
Well, that's what all this training is all about (or should be) Experiencing what's out there and using it.

Just my 2cents...I'll get off my box now, Thanks

Evan London
4th November 2002, 11:58
Manaka Sensei is aware that many members cross train with other "kans" as well as other arts. To my knowledge he's never mad any comments about it. As far as I'm aware, anyone is welcome to train with us and we are free to train with whom we please.

Ev

R Erman
4th November 2002, 12:20
Originally posted by kimq


Politics will exist when there are more than two people involved in anything. It's human nature.

Well, I over-simplified my point. What I'm saying is I hope the enmity between the Bujinkan and the other two kans will not be such a heated, emotionally-charged issue as time goes by. Even though it may seem important to us, it's amazing how much effort people put into arguing over MA organizations.

Moko
4th November 2002, 16:56
Dave wrote:


You should be able to train where you wish.

And I agree. He should train where he wants. It serves him (and others) to train with people who know their stuff. If, however, one belongs to an organization, they should however listen to their seniors in that outfit. If Soke says "Don't train with the Genbukan." That's all I need to hear. I have faith and trust in my Teacher. As Dave has no such person in his life I can see his point and agree with it for him.
I cannot pick and choose which rules I want to obey and which I want to break.
For those who think this is a limited view and leads to a limited group of skills, that's fine. It's an incorrect opinion but still fine with me.

poryu
5th November 2002, 17:15
Hi all

I have trained briefly with Jinenkan and Genbukan throughout my years in the Bujinkan. I think its a shame that many people will shun you if they find out that you attended a seminar with one of the other X-Kan even though it does not directly effect them. Politics makes me sick, what has it got to do with others what you wish to do.

Many years ago while working in Milwaukee Mike Coleman made me extremely welcome in his dojo and I really enjoyed the class that i attended his students were vgery polite and helpful. I have throughout the years maintained strong contacts with whoever I wanted to.

Personally I cant see what the problem is. No one will complain if you went and did some Judo or Karate.

Always be polite and respectful to your own art and other arts

Oni
5th November 2002, 19:45
Originally posted by Jeff Mueller
And in being respectful of your own art one would assume that you would follow the rules that the Soke of your art have laid down.

No cross training with the Genbukan or the Jinenkan. Period.

I wonder why this 'ruling' is not expressed in the Official Guidelines of the Bujinkan. For many many Bujinkan members it seems they must simply take the word of a few others. Now understand I am in no way saying I do not believe this ruling to be valid...just that it is strange that with other rules being so plainly addressed this one is not. I think in some ways this is part of what causes so many of the issues the Bujinkan has. Many things are not clearly laid out in any fashion. Rumor and mistrust abounds...and many people have 'facts' that they have gathered while in Japan that so often contradict 'facts' that others that went during different times have.

I also think there is also a LARGE case of 'nosey neighbor' syndrome. Too many folks too worried about what other people are doing and not focusing enough on their own backyards.

Just my personal opinion....

Rolling Elbow
5th November 2002, 20:09
Mr. Lindsey,

Your comments on Manaka have interested me..can you go into depth on your assessment of why more Bujinkan people would sneak into jinenkan seminars? Are you implying that the jinenkan would be able to break things down easier for the practitioner, or that what is focused on, is more combat efficient because of the amount of time it takes to learn.

thanks.

John Lindsey
7th November 2002, 05:38
Michael,

The reason I think that the Jinenkan attracts some Bujinkan members is the fact that Manaka S. is a very skilled teacher who is teaching ryuha in an A to Z manner. This is the reason why he was so popular and respected while he was in the Bujinkan. He was one of the first to start teaching kata and break out of the droning kihon happo cycle that was so popular in the 1980's.

I have watched a few Jinekan videos and thus cannot comment on their way of teaching. Maybe the level of basic detail in the kamae, etc is also attractive to some folks.

As for your question about being more "combat efficient" I have no idea. I do wonder if they ever crank things up a bit, or do they always train at such moderate speeds (not slow, not fast).

trickyricky69
7th November 2002, 18:01
We have friends in both the Bujinkan and Genbukan here in Alabama.
I mean, what can you say to someone who has made up their mind?
Some people act crazy on you for training in another system, but
when we started out at our dojo the instructor was teaching
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which in my opinion makes for bad habits anyway.

My point is this:

We can all say,"We should do as Soke says", but then again didn't he teach Tanemura-sensei and Manaka-sensei? I train where I want, when I want, and as limited as training can be here in Alabama sometimes, its a blessing to get to train in any of them for that matter!

Leave people alone, mind your business, and work on your own growth.

Just my opinion.

God Bless,
Ricky Holladay
Attalla, AL

bencole
8th November 2002, 15:55
Posted by Oni
I wonder why this 'ruling' is not expressed in the Official Guidelines of the Bujinkan.

Perhaps it is to test if people are men or mice? As Jeff said, no one questions the kuden of a particular teaching that was seen once at Hombu, but they question a rule that has been confirmed by numerous Shidoshi on numerous occasions. So what will it be? Men or mice?


For many many Bujinkan members it seems they must simply take the word of a few others.

Michael, they are taking the word of their Soke. Again, what is the difference between this and the kuden of a technique? Nothing.


I think in some ways this is part of what causes so many of the issues the Bujinkan has. Many things are not clearly laid out in any fashion.

Yes. It's called life. Get used to it.


Rumor and mistrust abounds...and many people have 'facts' that they have gathered while in Japan that so often contradict 'facts' that others that went during different times have.

Do tell us who are these many Bujinkan Shidoshi who insist that Soke told them that they could sleep around.... I think you will find that the people who are saying these things are making excuses for their lack of integrity. I've heard everything on this subject, "Soke didn't tell *ME* personally," "Soke is really far away from me that it doesn't pertain to me," "These men are Soke's (former) students so it shouldn't matter." All of these are just wish-washy ways of avoiding stepping up to the plate and making hard decisions.

If you don't get this point by now, your training isn't doing you much good, imo.

Budo is about making tough choices and be prepared in your heart to live with the consequences of those choices. Do you kill your attacker or just embarrass him? Do you step in front of the angry crowd to defend the defenseless? Do you cheat on your wife when away at that business conference? The principle driving all three of these decisions are exactly the same thing.

What do you think Fudoshin (the "unmovable heart") is? It's "integrity in the moment," pure and simple.


Posted by John Lindsey
The reason I think that the Jinenkan attracts some Bujinkan members is the fact that Manaka S. is a very skilled teacher who is teaching ryuha in an A to Z manner. This is the reason why he was so popular and respected while he was in the Bujinkan. He was one of the first to start teaching kata and break out of the droning kihon happo cycle that was so popular in the 1980's.

For the record, yes, Manaka was once a popular Shidoshi in good standing. I hear that his classes sometimes had over twenty students on a regular basis (which is quite a few for a Japanese dojo). Over time, however, interest started to dwindle so by the time he finally made the break with Hatsumi-sensei, he had only four regular students, only one of whom regularly trained with Soke. When Manaka did leave, that one student stopped training. When I inquired why, he said, "Manaka's good. But he's not THAT good."

Also for the record, in the final years leading up to his departure from the Bujinkan, Manaka only trained with Soke once or twice a year. This means that there were actually people living in places like Belgium and the United States that were training more frequently with Hatsumi-sensei, if you can believe it!!!

It would not be preposterous to say that there actually might be a correlation between this fact and the dwindling interest in what Manaka was teaching among Bujinkan people who had most ready access to it (e.g. those who lived down the street from him in Japan). Just a little cud to chew on for a while.

Oh, and for the record, Manaka is a very kind and decent person. I have nothing bad to say about him as an individual. It is just improper for Bujinkan people to train with him. If you want to train with him, then you should not train in the Bujinkan.

I attach the following for your reference:
-------
Quotation from Mike Loonam on Kutaki no Mura: http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=254&forum=14#1716
Hello and sorry this is rather brief.
I was there when it was announced about Manaka
leaving the Bujinkan. Hatsumi stated that anyone who trained with Jinenkan was NOT allowed to train at ANY Bujinkan dojo...

Hope there's enough clarity...

Mike L.

-------

So let us not digress from the key issue: Members of the Bujinkan are NOT to train with the other -kans.

Your Soke has stated more than once, and can be confirmed, that this is not to happen. He says these things for your own good, just as an elder warns you against picking your nose in public and against cheating on your wife. Your development as an individual will be better if you heed his advice. Moreover, your development as a 'Tatsujin' (complete person) will be enhanced if you are not living a life of fence-sitting and excuse-making.

If you want to pick your nose in public or cheat on your wife, naturally you can. But don't expect your elder (or wife) to want to continue the same nurturing relationship with you if you ignore advice that was given in your best interest. If the sole purpose of that relationship is merely to "take what you can from them without giving back (respect) in return," well, then, we wish you well in your life's journey.


Posted by trickyricky69
I train where I want, when I want,

And to think people actually wonder why they are not taught any of the "cool stuff" anymore. No wonder. I wouldn't trust this guy with knowledge of the art if he kissed my feet and called me "Big Daddy."

And there you have it folks. The State of the Union today. Our illustrious moderator telling us why kuden is only valid if it is not a rule of participation. Our illustrious sysop making it sound as if there is an army of Bujinkan people "sneaking" into Jinenkan seminars because they can't get the "real stuff" in the Bujinkan. And our illustrious New Member from Alabama demonstrating why people nowadays are nothing but wannabe warriors in a world of desperate need.

-ben

Oni
8th November 2002, 17:33
Ben,

Read the post by Jeff. Now read yours. They say some of the same things. Now note the differences. Jeff has participated and expressed his opinion with out insulting, laying blame, being derogatory, or carrying an agenda. Now read your post again. Do you see anything wrong here?

I appreciate your input. I appreciate you sharing your experiences and ideas. If you would have simply left the last paragraph off of your post it would have been a decent post for the most part. However I must ask that if you wish to participate here that you do so without the insults of those that you disagree with.

Now onto other points. Several times in this thread you have put words in my mouth. I did not 'tell' anyone anything. I posed a question that kind of bothered me. Again I think Jeffs reply (and parts of yours) was appropriate. I still think that many of these unwritten rules DO cause a lot of unnecessary politics and negativity...but again that is MY opinion. I also KNOW there have been times when there have been 'kuden' floating around that were later discovered to be WRONG or just incorrectly translated/carried on/passed down/etc. Again...I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS ONE OF THOSE CASES. Hence when I said:


Rumor and mistrust abounds...and many people have 'facts' that they have gathered while in Japan that so often contradict 'facts' that others that went during different times have.

I was not speaking of this _particular_ issue...just that there have been other issues aside from this that have created my overall idea that these unwritten rules sometimes create much of the chaos you see occur in the Bujinkan. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? That is for each individual person to decide. There is nothing that says you have to simply agree 100% with every idea that an organization has. Now yes...if you are part of said organziation you should follow its basic rules...but again doesn't mean you have to agree wholeheartedly with everything. There are many laws in our US government that I think are a crock. I follow them because I live here...but I do not always agree and if I could get some of them changed I would.

bencole
8th November 2002, 21:48
Originally posted by Oni
[B]If you would have simply left the last paragraph off of your post it would have been a decent post for the most part. However I must ask that if you wish to participate here that you do so without the insults of those that you disagree with.

Where precisely in my last paragraph is there an insult? You DID imply that kuden does not count if it pertains to rules (more on this below). John did STATE: "That is why you probably have more people from the Bujinkan sneaking into the Jinenkan seminars or buying the videos. Without a doubt, Manaka S. is teaching more formal ryuha kata faster than anyone else." And our newbie aptly demonstrated that he was selfish in his relationship with his teachers. If you've got another "kindler/gentler" interpretation of "I train where I want, when I want" I would like to hear it. All of these were merely repetitions of fact, albeit with the proper modicum of disdain befitting improperly crafted (yours), ill-informed (John's), or brazenly selfish (and spineless, imo) posts (trickyricky69).


Now onto other points. Several times in this thread you have put words in my mouth. I did not 'tell' anyone anything.
(snip)I also KNOW there have been times when there have been 'kuden' floating around that were later discovered to be WRONG or just incorrectly translated/carried on/passed down/etc. Again...I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS ONE OF THOSE CASES.

Then if this IS NOT THE CASE then DON'T state things as if they ARE. You were creating a "relationship" between unwritten rules and "other issues" that may "cause chaos," were you not? If you weren't, then surely you shouldn't have tied the two together in the same construct.


There are many laws in our US government that I think are a crock. I follow them because I live here...but I do not always agree and if I could get some of them changed I would.

Precisely! Otherwise you face jail. The only threat against those who sleep around is social ostracism or being cut off from the teachings, when in fact, the "true threat" should be the soiling of their own personal integrity and trust with their teachers.

-ben

John Lindsey
8th November 2002, 22:10
Ben,

I said nothing about an army of Bujinkan people flocking to the Jinenkan to learn kata. My quote of "more people from the Bujinkan" was in relationship to Genbukan members. Thus, there are more Bujinkan members interested in the Jinenkan than there are Genbukan members. Let me explain it another way. There is something about the Jinenkan that makes it closer to the Bujinkan than the Genbukan. Maybe its their focus on Kihon Happo and their moderate level of speed during training. Thus, you see more Buj than Gen getting Jin info.

Oh, an I still feel (and maybe I am wrong) that some American Bujinkan members think that training with Manaka or getting his videos is an easy way to learn the ryuha, and that he is probably the best qualified person in the USA to learn them from. At least that is what I have been told. I do agree with you that this is not correct, especially since your Soke has put the word out not to do it...

poryu
11th November 2002, 11:09
HI

I have as a result of this thread contacted around 40 people I know world wide in the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan. I asked all the same question, do you cross train, have you cross trained and do you have a problem with it.

Only Americans had a problem with it, and almost all admitted they had been to the Jinenkan at least once. Some even admitting that they had attended seminars with Manaka seminars. Allmost all europeans didnt have a problem at all with it and all say they will do it again or will do it for the first time in the next year or so. The ones with a problem say that if someone else wants to go then let them as it had nothing to do with them. All who had been had gone out of interest, not with a view to leaving, many said they will never do it again. I was also interested that a few bujinkan (all americans) that I pushed a bit (only due to my friend ship with them) also admitted they hold Bujinkan and Jinenkan grades. Dont ask for their names as I wont share them with anyone.

All the europeans that admitted to Jinenkan grades had left the bujinkan and were now jinenkan or had quit completely.

It is unfortunate that people who do cross train had to hide the fact, as others who have nothing better to do will go running to Hatsumi telling tales about them. I went out of interest once. I havent been back and I dont know if I will, I am just too busy to think about it right now. I run a bujinkan dojo and that takes up all my budo time. That was the impression I got from the others.

Now if some of us were to suddenly start training with the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho, how long before someone went running to him to tell tales about us.

Its between you and your soke, not the guy who wants to run off telling tales about us all

Evan London
11th November 2002, 11:51
Originally posted by bencole


For the record, yes, Manaka was once a popular Shidoshi in good standing. I hear that his classes sometimes had over twenty students on a regular basis (which is quite a few for a Japanese dojo). Over time, however, interest started to dwindle so by the time he finally made the break with Hatsumi-sensei, he had only four regular students, only one of whom regularly trained with Soke. When Manaka did leave, that one student stopped training. When I inquired why, he said, "Manaka's good. But he's not THAT good."

-ben

Mr. Cole,

I personally know 4 people who were training with Hatsumi Sensei and Manaka Sensei at the time of the break and chose to stay with Manaka Sensei after the founding of the Jinenkan. Your comments about ony 4 people training with him regularly is false, as are many of your comments regarding Manaka Sensei. I've commented before on your extreme bias on this issue beofre, and warn all readers to read Mr. Cole's comments with an understanding of this skewed perspective.

Evan London

mmeskheniten
11th November 2002, 20:22
Would someone with a legal background (preferably in business law)please comment on these issues from a legal perspective.

Specifically, I am wondering if it might be anti-competive and thus a violation of US Antitrust Law for one kan to formally prevent cross training in another kan in the US. I am wondering about this because the kan dojos that run as a business (charge money for training) could be construed to be offering highly similar services as other kans (training in many of the same ryu-ha). This would seem make them business competitors under US law. If so, then it might be a violation of federal law for one kan dojo to enforce a no "kan cross training" rule.

Now, this in no way means that a Kan member should not voluntarily abide by their kan's wishes. I think that you should. But just might mean that one dojo could not expell or otherwise punish a student for cross training.

What do you think?

Muai-Aakhu R. Meskheniten

R Erman
11th November 2002, 22:23
I can't believe I'm commenting on this, but work is slow right now.

Janty's right, however, I would think that if you wanted to view the kans as businesses, and since two of those are based in Japan, the american schools would be considered franchises, right?

Although, not an expert in international business law, I would assume the legality of the issue would fall under japanese law not US law.

mmeskheniten
12th November 2002, 00:01
Businesses with branches operating in the US have to operate their US branches under US laws.

Muai-Aakhu R. Meskheniten

R Erman
12th November 2002, 01:11
Originally posted by mmeskheniten
Businesses with branches operating in the US have to operate their US branches under US laws.

Muai-Aakhu R. Meskheniten

Yeah, well, I said I wasn't an expert...duh:D

Honestly, the business example has some merit, but I doubt any court would understand the intricacies of budo, reiho, alternate lineages, and biggest of all, giri.

I think the closest approximation to the kans would be an exclusive, private (ladies &)gentleman's club. Where membership is a priviledge, and comes with its own rules.

Bradenn
12th November 2002, 08:39
Has Hatsumi-sensei requested Bujinkan people not to cross-train at all (e.g. no Gracie Jujutsu, no Thai Boxing, no Feldenkrais, no Systema etc.) or is this purely a Bujinkan/Jinenkan restriction?

----------------
Braden Nicols

Bradenn
12th November 2002, 10:56
If this request were based on what is in the best interest of all Bujinkan students, I am surprised that ALL cross-training is not forbidden. Surely students will learn more "bad" habits from Gracie Jujutsu or Thai Boxing than they would from Genbukan or Jinenkan training. I do not claim to know better than Hatsumi-sensei and I like to believe that he has a reason for this.

Billy
12th November 2002, 14:40
... one dojo could not expell or otherwise punish a student for cross training.


Membership into an organization is, in this day and age, entered into by choice, and those who do not agree with its rules are afforded the right of refusal. At the same time however, organizations are allowed to establish rules, and they maintain the right to revoke the membership of anyone who is in breach of those rules. In instances where a dojo is a subset, it's afforded the right to dismiss any student who blatantly disregards the rules of the organization and/or dojo., and r, its the teacherís responsibility to enforce the rules no matter how great or how small and regardless of whether they are written or orally expressed. In essence, where membership is concerned, the rules of the organization are the law.

The issue at hand digs much deeper than any constitutional law and rears its head in the unwritten laws of society. It's a question of integrity.


... Soke feels they are on different paths now then what he is teaching NOW.

My intent is not to dis another kan, but some deceitful practices did preceded one of the break-offs (someone was doing some things behind Hatsumi-senseiís back). That ideal is not only in direct opposition to the integrity of Hatsumi-sensei, but itís contrary to the concept of Budo which he lives and teaches.

From my perspective, the path is different.

Billy Shearer
Bujinkan Zenka Dojo

Jim_Jude
12th November 2002, 19:09
I've never heard anyone in the Bujinkan (with my own ears, that is) say that we should cross train to pick up much needed skills. I HAVE heard various shihan & Soke say that we should x-train to "see what we may be facing". I took this as meaning that after we have a "mastery" of the Bujinkan arts (I call this Godan, others will argue), we should get exposed to other arts, see their techniques, their strengths & weaknesses. I've trained in other dojos & can now see major gaps in their training & techniques. Most of these have altered their training to emphasize the sportsmans' aspects. These don't serve someone training to save their own life & the lives of others. Not that a wrestler/Brazilian jujutsuka or a kickboxer wouldn't have an edge over the average guy, but that is sport. Not Budo. Survival is the focus of the Takamatsu-den arts. Not points or publicity.
:nin:
Ninpo Ikkan...

Jim_Jude
12th November 2002, 19:16
Originally posted by Bradenn
If this request were based on what is in the best interest of all Bujinkan students, I am surprised that ALL cross-training is not forbidden. Surely students will learn more "bad" habits from Gracie Jujutsu or Thai Boxing than they would from Genbukan or Jinenkan training. I do not claim to know better than Hatsumi-sensei and I like to believe that he has a reason for this.

Who knows? Maybe Hatsumi-sensei feels a responsibility to represent his Teacher & his lineage the best he can, & if he sees someone misrepresenting these arts, what would he do? Tell everyone to make up their minds: me or the other guy, but make up your mind, & move. I think that's why Soke doesn't get involved with politics, he probably doesn't have time for them. I'm just glad there are dedicated Shihan that are grabbing the horse's tail NOW, not debating on who's better before they train.
:smilejapa

The Tengu
12th November 2002, 21:00
Originally posted by Bradenn
If this request were based on what is in the best interest of all Bujinkan students, I am surprised that ALL cross-training is not forbidden. Surely students will learn more "bad" habits from Gracie Jujutsu or Thai Boxing than they would from Genbukan or Jinenkan training. I do not claim to know better than Hatsumi-sensei and I like to believe that he has a reason for this. Here's an analogy for the geek-inclined:

You are a junior network admin working in the technology department of a large firm. The domain servers installed there are based on Windows 2000 Advanced Server. You want to add a new server running Windows NT 4, but the senior network administrator is in disagreement with you because he feels that Windows 2000 Advanced Server is a better NOS. At the same time you are being refused your NT 4 member server, your associate Jenny has gotten his approval to install a Linux-based web server running Apache for the company's new web presence.

See, your boss(Hatsumi Soke) does not want you putting what he feels is an inferior NOS into the internal workings of the LAN, even though NT is compatible with 2000 and actually similar technology, you've still got to alter your domain configuration to allow for the "black sheep" of the network. That would end up creating reconfiguration issues to allow for the NT server, because even though NT4(Genbukan, Jinenkan) is similar in nature to Win2K(Bujinkan), it is very much different in essence.

However, the Linux web server(Gracie Jiu-Jitsu) is a different matter and from your boss' standpoint it is of secondary importance to him since it will be seperated from the internal LAN. Even though it is different technology than Windows 2000(Bujinkan), it has its purpose and will even expand Jenny's skill set. That in turn, will give the IT staff a broader knowledge base.

Oni
12th November 2002, 21:07
Ack! Comparing the Bujinkan to ANYTHING Microsoft is surely grounds for disembowling ;)

The Tengu
12th November 2002, 21:58
Originally posted by Oni
Ack! Comparing the Bujinkan to ANYTHING Microsoft is surely grounds for disembowling ;) Actually I think my analogy was sound because if you want something created for general, broad-spectrum use, you want Bujinkan(Windows). If you want specialized, narrow-spectrum use, you want Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu(Linux).

Ha ha!

;)

Oni
12th November 2002, 22:37
I think any possible potential this thread had has passed. Overall the topic is generally not a 'fun' one to have discussed for any length of time. With that said I am officially closing this.