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Amphinon
4th November 2002, 15:14
Have any of you ever heard of a double disqualification in a Grand Champion match?

I had one at my tournament and was curious as too how ofter it happens. I don't remember it happening locally in the last 17 years...

MarkF
4th November 2002, 19:19
Hi, David,
I know you are asking about karate tournaments, and this doesn't even invovle a double hansokumake, but I read it some time ago on the IJF message forum.

A man wrote, I believe he was from Iran, and asked "Man throw up on mat! He disqual or what!?"

There were a few very serious follow ups, most discussing "very grave infractions and penalties."

I believe the match would be stopped while the "Man who throw up" was attended to by medical personnel, but no one asked who cleaned it up. If he couldn't continue, it's a walk-over, or fusen gachi.


Sorry, It just reminded me of it and thought I'd share.


Mark

Budoka 34
4th November 2002, 19:29
David:

What system of rules were they using?

I've never heard of double disqual!
You're either disqualified or your not.:confused:

Was this the tournament up in New York?

:smilejapa

CEB
4th November 2002, 22:10
Originally posted by MarkF
...
A man wrote, I believe he was from Iran, and asked "Man throw up on mat! He disqual or what!?"

...

Mark


This reminds me of when I was studying Judo long time ago. It was at a University Judo Club where my teacher worked as a history professor. We had two Iranian guys in class who were students at the university. This was during the revolution in Iran. One Judo player was a pro Shah government guy and the other was a pro Ayatollah Khomeini man. It was nuts. I've seen American's get really worked up over politics but these guys superceded anything I have ever seen to this day. They couldn't work together on the mat. We couldn't even let them Uchikomi with each other. They would try to kill each other. It wasn't like one was more aggressive or more of a bully. They were both equally combative. They were both nice to everyone else. So it wasn't like we could kick one out of the dojo they both seemed equally at fault. Sad thing is they were good friends before the politics hit the fan. Mr. Combs told them on several ocassions to leave the politics outside the dojo. Eventually they stopped showing up. Sensei may have barred them from training, I don't know. If these 2 are an indicator of the norm then Iranians take politics very seriously.

If these 2 ever met at a shiai you would probably a pretty good chance at a double honsokumake situation.

MarkF
5th November 2002, 08:41
Yes. An atemi match might break out. It is too bad they couldn't leave it at home, or at least outside the door.


Mark

will szlemko
5th November 2002, 21:26
Hi,

I once saw both contestents get disqualified at the same time. I also was triple disqualified during a tae kwon do tournament. Apparently you cannot grab a kicking leg (dq) sweep a leg (dq) or punch someone who has fallen (dq). That ended my run at tae kwon do tournaments.

will

MarkF
6th November 2002, 18:52
I think that is what David meant, didn't you, David? Both contestants getting DQ'd in the same match?

A hansokumake or direct hansokumake in judo tournaments mean you are out of the tournament, and may pay a fine of being barred from IJF or other organizational activity for a period of time. That happens, on rare occasion.
******

What is the penalty in the average tournament for the "grave infraction?"


Mark

Amphinon
7th November 2002, 13:19
That's correct. A double DQ in the same match.

I had this happen at my tournament this last weekend during the Black Belt Grand Champion match. One was a hothead and didn't like that the other was grabbing the Gi and striking, so he would strike back. The that guy struck back. And so it began.

I had 2 - 6th Dans, 1 - 5th Dan, 1 - 4th Dan, and 1 - 3rd Dan judging the match.

Bustillo, A.
7th November 2002, 15:55
In point tournaments, on occasion, yes, I've heard of double disqualifications.
kyokushin events, no.

What were the rules at your event? Point or kyokushin knockdown rules?

Amphinon
8th November 2002, 13:44
They were point sparring.

It makes sense that at Knockdown events there would be no double DQ, since they would smack the the other guy so hard it would leave DNA markers in the opponents gene pool for generations...

BTW - this was an open event. One guy was TKD and the other was Shotokan.

Bustillo, A.
8th November 2002, 14:54
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amphinon
[B]They were point sparring.
It makes sense that at Knockdown events there would be no double DQ, since they would smack the the other guy so hard it would leave DNA markers in the opponents gene pool for generations...


[A.B]
Good one David.

Perhaps it is just that knockdown competitors outgrew the game of tag.

Quote:
"Free-fight in the world I started it in 1966....because of when I saw that stupid karate, what I call stupid pussy karate systems..."
Jon Bluming

CEB
8th November 2002, 15:13
Who won the tournament, the man who should have been third place?

My boy this summer took a second place when one of the competitors fighting for 1st was DQ'd. I thought the DQ'd player would have been given 2nd, but he wasn't given anything. It didn't look like much of foul, just little bit of head contact. I kind of hate seeing the children given hansoku for trying a little too hard, but I guess rules of the game are rules of the game. The match my boy lost was when he was fighting a kid shorter than him. The kid guarded his body but left his head wide open. My boy wouldn't go to the head because he was afraid of the DQ. Later, I told go to the head when its open, but all back I got was "But Daaaaddddd, I'll get disqualified." It's hard on me to watch my kids play.

Amphinon
8th November 2002, 18:06
They each had already won first place in their divisions. This particular match was foe Grand Champion.

Budoka 34
8th November 2002, 20:21
Ed,

I know what you mean about watching your kids play.
I can't even watch my team mates without becomming involved.
As for the head contact, a good ref will make sure the competitors know what is expected before the first match.

I had a ref throw out one of our competitors(beginner div) last year because she threw a high round kick and her opponent tried to block so hard and fast(and late!) that the girl fell over!

The ref told our player it was excessive contact and gave her hansoku chui even though it never made contact!

I just stood there dumbfounded! I was not a coach so I could not protest.

Then the same ref scored a terrible back fist by our player.
She looked at me like...huh!

Then tried it again because it worked.
This time she had good form and scored on the back of the girls helmet.

The ref yelled Yame and turned to our player, "Hansoku!"

But like our player said at the time "I know who won the match, this is all just part of the experience".:D

:smilejapa