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O'Neill
6th November 2002, 19:49
Does anyone know for sure if Sato Kinbei really studied Daito ryu and if so, under whom. I have heard of an Oba sensei- was he really a master of Daito ryu? Thanks.

Erin O'Neill

Nathan Scott
6th November 2002, 21:48
I suppose it is possible, since Fukushima is the modern name for Aizu, which is where Takeda Sokaku grew up and learned the art. However, he was not issued a Menkyo Kaiden in Daito ryu - at least by anyone authorized to do so.

But the fact is, anybody can claim to study something. Who knows?

Who was his teacher? How long does he claim to have studied for? What level of initiation does he claim to have gained?

Since he claims to have studied 12 koryu (one of which was Chinese), receiving Menkyo Kaiden in most if not all of them according to the following links, I would say his claims are dubious at best:

http://users.skynet.be/genbukan/Sato.htm

Written by his daughter:
http://www.jujutsu.com/jujutsu/htm/Frame19.htm

Whether he was skilled or not is another story, but when someone boasts impossible ranks, it makes one wonder how exaggerated all of their claims might be.

Regards,

George Kohler
6th November 2002, 23:54
Don't know about the menkyo kaiden thing, but Sato sensei studied under Yamamoto Kakuyoshi, who was one of Takeda Sokaku's last student.

If you go to this website http://member.nifty.ne.jp/daito-ryu/eimei.html, and go to the very bottom entry (listed under 1941), you can find Yamamoto's name. It even says that Sato Kinbei sensei was his student. I can't read most of the Japanese on this page, but I believe The page is about Sokaku's eimeiroku.

Chris Li
7th November 2002, 03:46
Originally posted by Yobina
I have a book on jujutsu written by Sato Kinbei. In it he says that he practiced Daito ryu under Yamamoto Kakuyoshi as Mr Kohler said.

In "Aikido no Kagaku" (Yoshimaru Keisetsu) there is a photograph of a scroll given to Sato by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi entitled "Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-jutsu Hiden Okugi no Koto".

Best,

Chris

George Kohler
7th November 2002, 04:31
Originally posted by Chris Li


In "Aikido no Kagaku" (Yoshimaru Keisetsu) there is a photograph of a scroll given to Sato by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi entitled "Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-jutsu Hiden Okugi no Koto".

Best,

Chris

Is this the same as Aikido no Ogi by the same person?

Nathan Scott
7th November 2002, 06:03
In "Aikido no Kagaku" (Yoshimaru Keisetsu) there is a photograph of a scroll given to Sato by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi entitled "Daito-ryu Aiki Ju-jutsu Hiden Okugi no Koto".

Is that what he is showing on page 42? It takes me too much time to read through everything, so I've been putting off getting too deep into these books.

It looks like the date on the menjo uses the old style of numbering, which I don't have memorized.

Bummer.

Chris Li
7th November 2002, 06:08
Originally posted by George Kohler


Is this the same as Aikido no Ogi by the same person?

That's another book by the same person.

Best,

Chris

Chris Li
7th November 2002, 06:15
Originally posted by Nathan Scott


Is that what he is showing on page 42? It takes me too much time to read through everything, so I've been putting off getting too deep into these books.

Yes.


Originally posted by Nathan Scott
It looks like the date on the menjo uses the old style of numbering, which I don't have memorized.

3rd month of Showa 32 (March, 1957).

Best,

Chris

O'Neill
7th November 2002, 21:27
I was glad to hear that Sato sensei had an actual connection to Daito ryu. I wonder why his name isn't mentioned more often in daito ryu articles? It does look strange when you hear that someone is a soke of so many arts? I was always told that it takes a lifetime to master one. There seems to be alot of people claiming multiple high ranks in multiple arts, they must do nothing else in life but even then it seems unlikely to master so many different ryu.

I plan on purchasing the book by Sato and maybe even jujutsu zusetsu by Osano. Thanks for the info.

Erin O'Neill

George Kohler
7th November 2002, 23:14
Originally posted by O'Neill
I plan on purchasing the book by Sato and maybe even jujutsu zusetsu by Osano. Thanks for the info.


I would advise not to purchase Jjutsu Zusetsu by Osano Jun. Basically, the book is based on his organization's curriculum and the pictures are too small to see.

Nathan Scott
8th November 2002, 00:06
Mr. O'Neill,

First off, keep in mind that we're not talking about "Soke" (in all cases), we're talking about a high level of initiation.

Also, while it is helpful to know Mr. Sato's DR affiliation and that he was awarded densho, it is still unclear (to me at least) how much he studied.

Not speaking specifically about Mr. Sato, I can say that there are a number of well known, highly ranked and skilled Japanese martial artists that obtain high ranks or even entire ryu-ha from others, even if they don't train in that given art. This is done in hopes of creating perceived prestige (in the case of high ranks) and/or as a ditch effort to ensure that their art will survive - at least in name - in the future. Those that go overboard with collecting and advertising these ranks and arts make it pretty obvious how they obtained them.

Also, obtaining a high rank (dan/kyu) in a gendai budo is in many cases much easier and realistic than gaining a high rank in a koryu. The requirements and perspective on the ranks tend to be different.

Considering that Yamamoto issued the scroll, and not the headmaster, it is difficult to know the nature of the issuance. Was the scroll awarded in recognition of Sato's existing ability, or as a result of an actual level of initiation into the tradition of Daito ryu.

Just more to think about,

Nathan Scott
15th October 2004, 21:17
Hi all,

I've gotten a couple of requests recently asking for a reminder as to what book the aforementioned photo of Sato's certificate is in. While it is mentioned above, I'll mention it again explicitly here and in the process bump this thread up a bit.

The book is in Japanese, and is called "Aikido no Kagaku" (The Science of Aikido), by Yoshimaru Keisetsu. Published in 1990. The photograph is on page 42 of that book. Sato's scroll is titled "Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu Hiden Okugi no Koto", and was issued by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi in March of 1942. There is also a page of text that accompanies the photo.

Interesting to note that Yamamoto Kakuyoshi is listed in Sokaku's enrollment book as having begun his own training with Sokaku in 1941, but according to this scroll, by March of 1942 he was apparenlty already teaching his own students and even issuing them higher-level Daito-ryu transmission documents. That's what I call the ultra-fast track. Hmmm....

Hope this helps,

Nathan Scott
10th July 2007, 06:12
For more information, please see the following thread:

Yamamoto-den Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu (Yamamoto Kakuyoshi) (http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=447496)

Regards,