SAFTA and Police Techniques

[Benjamin Peters]

www.navysealteams.com
Has anyone seen these any of these videos (listed on the above page)?? If you can, please post your thoughts (or PM me).

[tmanifold]

Lew Hicks is a Liar. He was a SEAL and I respect him for that but SAFTA is just barely rebundled SCARS. However, he isn't alone in rebundling SCARS these days. Last time I saw his videos adverised they referede to him as SAFTA SEAL not even using his name, wonder why?

[Benjamin Peters]

Lew Hicks is a Liar.

Hi Mr Manifold, can you explain a little more? Not knowing anything about this guy, I was just wondering what the basis of your conclusion is - I'm intrigued!! Also, is SCARS similar to the SAFTA method?

[tmanifold]

SCARS was the official H2H program taught to SEALs from the late eighties until just recently. Lew Hicks took the SCARS course during his time as a SEAL. When he got out he decided to make some money teaching H2H and "created" SAFTA. SAFTA is SCARS. That in itself makes Lew Hicks a liar, he created nothing. If you want to learns SCARS go to the source and learn from Jerry Peterson. If you don't want to deal with Peterson or his Org, try Tim Larkin. Larkin was Peterson's right hand man for years and has recently went out on his own.

[mt2k]

Tmanifold...How does SCARS stack up to the WW2 Fairbairn/Applegate methods? Is it worth the (considerable) expense to check it out?
Matt Temkin

[Kevin73]

I have seen SCARS before and was not impressed at all. I have heard from many other sources that SCARS is just a watered down version of San Soo. After seeing it, I probably concur with that statement.

They invent alot of their own vocabulary with scientific sounding terms but they are things that are in all martial arts as is, with just a different name. That's really all it is, a basic martial art with fancy scientific sounding names to make it sound better. Save yourself the money.

In about a week I will be training with an actual SEAL in groundfighting, I'll try and remember to ask him about the program and if they really even learned it too.

[Ken Good]

Copied and slightly edited from my first post on E-budo as part of a previous thread on this topic. Do a search for SCARS and you will see there has been plenty of discussion on it.

__________________

SEAL’s: Say you trained, trained with, or saw a SEAL training and you have instant credibility in many minds. Good marketing plan!

I understand that the Naval Special Warfare community has placed as much distance as possible between themselves and Mr. Peterson. He is not the first, nor will he be the last.

One only needs to read the bombastic ads associated with the group to arrive at a logical conclusion. I understand the need for advertising, but...

I have had some contact with SCARS and SAFTA as a member of the Naval Special Warfare Community. I was active-duty at SEAL Team One and spent quite a few years as a reservist on the West Coast. Honor Graduate of BUD/s class #105 for those of you who will be checking.

I founded the Strategos International a tactical training company that regularly interacts with the Law Enforcement community. Anyway, I am not an operator anymore, so I humbly approach this topic.

From the law-enforcement point of view, SCARS has to be out for most. Just the name alone has to be a juicy target for some civil rights attorney. Very little ability to regulate force, an in my mind this is a critical short-coming with dealing with John Q. Public and his brother standing there with a video camera.

Most military units don't place a lot of emphasis on combatives as they have belt-fed machineguns and things that go boom. But in today’s low-intensity conflict scenarios, Close Quarter Combat is a valid concern and some units spend the time developing "systems" that meet mission requirements. I have conducted training courses with a U.S Army Special Forces Groups and combatives was included. They are still open and willing to adopt principles and techniques germane to their mission. This is in stark contrast to an almost cult-like following found in some SCARS advocates. Keep in mind we are not talking about street fighting with "Tank" Abbott. These guys will find themselves in situations where they are wearing a lot of gear, helmets, body armor, low-light conditions, uneven terrain, projectile based threats and many other environmental factors.

I first came in contact with SCARS as a reservist when it was the "buzz" around the community. I met a few guys who had taken the SCARS course(s) when they were first being presented. For the most part the graduating students seemed to believe that what they had learned was undefeatable. IMHO a dangerous mental position. It is great to have a powerful, decisive, positive mental attitude, but please temper it with reality. As one looks around at any physical/mental activity that men attempt to conquer, 40 hours just doesn’t cut it… I can defend myself against most after years of training. But the reality is there are many, many who can defeat me in H2H combat, plain and simple. I train and hope I don't run into them in a lethal force confrontation. Odds are I won't and for that I am grateful.

While working for the Federal Government as a program director for Shipboard Security, I ran into a proponent of SAFTA (Lew Hicks) who was telling me that ALL people ALWAYS react in certain ways to certain stimulus, a pillar of his system, as I understand it. He then attempted to physically demonstrate the principle by shoving me as hard as he could in the chest while at the same time stating that I would put a foot back. As he shoved, I executed a basic sword turn found in the Yanagi ryu curriculum. It is one the first things you need to understand and apply to successfully evade sword strikes and facilitate dropping people to the ground. My feet were still in place, and he as completely off-balance, ripe for a counter. I was and still consider myself a novice in Aiki JuJutsu. So went the theory that ALL and ALWAYS can be found in close quarter engagements.

With a puzzled look on his face, he asked what I did and I tried to explain that it comes from a system that has its foundation in edged weapon conflict. The individual quickly interrupted and stated that “knives are !!!!!!!! to us, we treat them as hands attached to the arm”...A truly scientific analysis. He went on to tell me, that there was nothing about fighting that he did not understand. When he finished his monologue, I felt humbled as I had met Jesus Christ Incarnate prior to his Second Coming. This individual can also be found in similar ads of the SCARS variety.

I have posted on: http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Fo...TML/000213.html as to the effectiveness of Yanagi ryu strategy and techniques when employed by a skillful practitioner with a bit more than 40 hours of training.

To be perfectly honest, I am not sure of the exact relationship of SCAR/SAFTA is but there are striking similarities in its advocates.

The good news maybe that SCARS, SAFTA and similar systems might be well-suited for inculcating an aggressive mind-set and never die attitude to young lads in compressed timeframes. Trainees leave with a high level of confidence and basic plan of attack. Most plans are better than none.

On the other hand, instilling a sense of invincibility can lead to foolhardiness. I selected Naval Special Warfare as a community because of the strategies and missions, and left attacking machine-guns on fortified hills to the immortals. It was a longer more difficult road, but worth it.

The more difficult weapons based arts involve traveling down a similar road. Outcomes of weapons-based, multiple adversary fights from my viewpoint favor those with the greater sense of balance, sensitivity and awareness over one-dimensional aggressiveness. I have observed over the years that those with an overly aggressive/ballistic mind-sets tend not to fair well in projectile-based training/operational situations. Bullets doesn’t really care what is on your chest; SWAT, SEAL, SPEC this or that. They just fly and comply to the immutable laws of physics. It is much better to blend and outthink your opponent, adopting the effective strategies of the Aiki principles. Allow or cause your opponent to overextend in mind and body, and then cut them down with your weapon.

I have quite a few e-mails from folks that I have trained attesting to this. I would like to think that the approach we are presenting actually saves lives and puts bad guys away. As effective as our training is, it could never approach the 100 percentile. You can only increase your odds of prevailing in a lethal-force environment. The rest is what I term “the Grace of God Factor”. Face it, no matter how invincible you may believe you are, you will more likely than not need the benefit and immediate support of others when multiple opponents have weapons than can kill from a distance. It is not about you anymore, it is about us. SCARS seems to be "I" centered from this vantage point.

In closing, (finally!) I have met a few of the SCARS instructors at some of the SPEC OPS trade shows I have attended. They were always extremely helpful and friendly, the same could not be said for Mr. Peterson himself.

I would like to have the opportunity to discuss the merits of this or that technique, principle and training methodology in an intelligent manner with him personally.

I would love to change my opinion of the SCARS approach as it resides in the negative.

[tmanifold]

The things I like about SCARS are the agressive mindset, the never block instead strike limbs idea and the logical progression of the moves. Ken referred to the fact that SCARS/SAFTA people contend that people always act the same way when atacked with a given technique. WE all know this to be false. However, in Jerry Peterson's defence He does say on the Training and Methodologies tape that people will always react in this manner (an example was given) to a greater or lesser extent. What this means is if I kick you in the nuts you will bend forward, your hands will start to move to your groin and your chin will raise. The degree to which this will be true will depend on how well the shot connected, the level of training you have, any drugs or painkilling substances you are one, etc. However, if I connect the process will start. That is unavoidable. What is avoidable is wether you complete the full reaction(ie bent over hands cupping your nuts) or just a small flinch. Also system is an overkill system. Every move is assumed to have failed until it is obvious that the person is out.

Things I don't like. It contains some very complex moves. Good for a SEAL in peak physical condition, not so good for Joe Blow. Very expensive both for personal training and videos.

Most of the mindset and Physiology things I do are influenced by SCARS. However for the more physical stuff it is more influenced by F/S stuff. The two go great together in my opinion.

[mt2k]

Mr. Good is as real and as serious as a heart attack. I have heard only good things about him and his low light shooting/flashlight system. His opinion is to be highly respected. Ditto Mr. Manifold, who I know only from forums, but he seems to be a straight shooter.
Re "people always react this way.."
A very dangerous assumption. My old work buddy/training friend and former neighbor Bill McGrath used to say that "If I do this, then he'll do that"
I showed him how wrong that assumption can be with some simple "action/reaction" drills.
There is a saying in AA which goes like this..."I can only control myself"
Which is why I like the Cestari method of teaching the FAS system. As he always said (as did my Ranger veteran father )" We do this. Regardless of what he does this is what we do."
Which makes for a very simple/effective/fast to learn system.
PS..Ken..Both myself and the NYPD LT (DB) are looking forward to hooking up with you soon and doing some shooting.
Matthew Temkin

[tmanifold]

Thanks for the praise Matt. It means a lot coming from you.
I agree that saying "this always happens" is dangerous. However, there is an advantage to researching what happens to the body when it is struck in different ways. How many times have we seen someone demonstrating a defense to an attack, and the attacker throws his punch and then stands there, his punch still extended, while he is being struck in different places? Or worse yet the attacker "shows" the attack then is soudly defeat by the martial prowess of the demonstrator? By having the attacker react to strikes in a realistic manner one gets one step closer to reality. The other advantage is in the realm of combining techniques. Most of the time, if left to our own devices, we devlop combination based on what is natural to our body. I.e. what does my body feel like doing next. The problem with that is that what feels natural for my body may not be the most effective tool to use based on the attacker's postition. The trick is to try and find the most natural tool that fits the position which the attacker is in.

With all this said how do we balance the fact that expecting somethng to happen becuase it "always happens like this" and having realistic effects to actions, thus training more realisticlly? One way is to allow the attacker to throw kinks in to the scenario. Lets assume the attacker throws a punch and the defender goes through a series of moves (not by rote, of course) during which the defend attempts to knee the attacker in the groin. Instead of taking the shot and going through the motions, the attacker twists his hips and "takes" most of the blow on his thigh. He would therefore make a very minor reaction to the strike and the defender would have to act accordingly. If he tried the same technique(ie tried to use a by rote combo) it would probably not work because he would not be using the most effective tool in relationship to the attacker's, now modified position.

Again, the best of both worlds.

[Cady Goldfield]

Ken,
The Aikido Journal forum link you provided doesn't seem to work. Can you tell us which forum and the title of the thread so we can find what you wrote?

Thanks,
Cady

[Ken Good]

Cady,

It was posted many moons ago…I have learned many things since then…

I will give you the highlights.

I just started training with James Williams at his dojo. I was seeing things, but I was not convinced of the efficacy. Some Naval Special Warfare guys were also at the dojo and James set up a private seminar with these guys who were all the instructors for Naval Special Warfare fighting unit. I am not sure if it was called that back then.

Don Angier, whom James trained with for a while was to be heading this private seminar. Whenever Don’s name was mentioned, people got quiet. I inquired, and was continually told of his skill level.

I was imagining this monster of a man. When he arrived, I was taken back! Small in stature, a bit round in the mid-section, kinda hobbling along having a good Ol’ time.
I just couldn’t reconcile what I was seeing vs. what I had heard.

I know NavSpecWar guys, and I know they were thinking you have to be kidding….

The seminar started off with Don taking the mat dress in a sweatshirt and some nylon athletic pants and he talked a bit about his background, his philosophy and his art. Then he stated something to the effect that I know you guys want to see if this stuff actually works. So lets go.

He asked anyone of them or all them to start brining in attacks. This I had to see. Nobody really wanted to commit, basically not wanting to really hurt the Old guy. One guy was finally coaxed into attacking. He half-heartedly attempted a double-leg take down and much to his surprise he was dropped to the mat, spun, pinned with Don’s legs, grimacing and grunting in pain. Don said, “I can break your shoulder real easy can’t I?” He has a “unique” sense of humor…especially went he’s gotcha. Don did not let him up and invited everyone else to try and help their buddy. I was sitting back utterly amazed as he threw them around like rag dolls. We are not taking about physical misfits here. The looks on their faces said it all to me.

I was like being in a cool martial arts video you dream about.

At that point I wanted to know what made Aiki-jujutsu work. I made the leap of faith.
Been on a different path since, and I publicly thank James Williams and Don Angier for directing me there. Regardless of what you study, I would highly recommend attending one of Don’s seminars just to see something from a different perspective.

A classical approach to studying Aiki-jujutsu will not work well in today’s military/LE training environment, nevertheless, its principles are absolutely applicable in my opinion.

[Ken Good]

Matt,

I want to publicly thank you and the NYPD for being open enough to have me work with some of your guys.

I have been hanging with some of the Emergency Services Unit guys,
Pete Segreti & Joe Zobi. Fantastic, fantastic guys. They have been letting me play civilian NYPD. I might attend one of the 2-week ESU training sessions early next year.

My first day with Pete

Hook up with your dedicated Arrest team - Drive into the City and shadow a raid that made the evening news. When I mean shadow, they gave me a vest, helmet and some breaching tools, number 4 on the second stick....hop in the truck and go....Only in NYC! The guy ended up having boatloads of weapons and explosives. I asked the team leader how many callouts do they participate in annually.....approx 1,200 to 1,400!!! yes that is right. 4-6 day! I know departments that have SWAT teams that have not been called out in 2 years.

Go to the range (everybody there treated me like gold) and shoot for a few hours - Eat lunch

Go down to ESU training facility. Get the full tour. Hook up with the Aviation Unit. Tour the city in a state of the art Super-Huey helicopter. Get shirts, hats, and pins for my son...

Get back - Hang, eat some pasta. Another "job". Hostage situation. Boyfriend holding girlfriend at knifepoint. As we were rolling up...Bang, bang, bang – shots fired....people flying everywhere....Great Bruce Willis movie. Scamper up the stairs...blood everywhere....girl stabbed multiple times unconscious...dead perp in the doorway....responding officer had to shoot the guy for obvious reasons. This also makes the news.

All in a days work - the proverbial kid in a candy store....not bad for a former California boy who had always heard about New York. Now living in Connecticut...the 2-hour drive home didn't occur I was so jacked!

I have been learning to blend Californian with New Yorkesse...so forget about it Dude....

Hope to meet you soon.

[mt2k]

Ken..When you come back to NYC contact me privately. I'll give you the LT's home and work number. He is running undercover operations in the "ghetto" and you'd be welcome to ride along with them.
Also, he can get hook you up at the "neck" with some very open minded firearms instructors.
Matt.
PS...it's"Faaaaaaaagetaboutit"

[Jay Vail]

Ken, That was an excellent post about SAFTA. I met Lou Hicks once when he was in Florida under contract to provide H2H training for Florida police. (The contract was eventually cancelled. I understand this was because his method was too strike oriented for the police, who wanted something more control oriented). I had a similar experience with him as you did when I went into a school he had established here to teach civilians on the side to see what he was about. I am skeptical of people of assume the enemy will tend to respond in expected ways in fighting. Parker's kenpo assumes this too in their two person sets.

You made another excellent point: Allow or cause your opponent to overextend in mind and body, and then cut them down with your weapon.

I trained in judo as a kid and had the misfortune to have to use it a few times in the street, and I found that it worked best when you merged with their intent and used their commitment against them.

If you ever come to Florida or nearby to conduct a seminar, I hope I can come.

[tmanifold]

I think a distinction should be made between the reaction your body naturally takes after a technique that lands and the reaction you take to counter that technique. In Kens example above the guy tried to shove him and Ken countered the technique. This in no way challenges the claim. To assume that any move you attempt is uncounterable is suicide. Also to assume that all people will react in the extreme to your strike is unwise. The fact remains that we can not over come instincts completely. The travel a faster path than conditioned behaviour. Darren Laur posted a essay on this board sometime ago that explains it better than I can here. Do a search and you will probably find it.

To use Kens example again: If he was pushed and was unable to counter he would have stepped back with one leg. Now if he has good training he would recover very quickly but an equally skilled attacker could take advantage of that momentary effect better, if he is aware of it, than one who does not.