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Andy Watson
11th November 2002, 12:21
I was watching a video the other day of a non-karate demonstration and saw as possible application for the grabbing motion which occurs after the x-block in Heian Godan and it got me thinking the different ways in which this could be utilised.

I would be interested to know everyone's bunkai for this move. I come from a shotokai background and I was originally taught that this was grabbing the blocked fist, pulling it down to the hip and countering but I now see how this might be a proper wrist lock rather than just a pull-down.

Any thoughts?

Rob Alvelais
11th November 2002, 14:54
I saw a book on Aikido, the other day that had a treatment of "Gokkyo" that looked like a direct application of that move from H5.

Rob

Steven Malanosk
11th November 2002, 15:04
It can be a prelude to a Kan Setsu Waza "joint lock," to the elbow = arm bar, or to a number of Kote Waza "wrist techniques."

will szlemko
11th November 2002, 19:24
Hi all,

One of my favorite bunaki for this move involves uke coming at me with a looping/chopping right punch. Use the block in the standard fashion pulling his hand towards your hip, then use your left hammerfist/straight punch (style dependent) to grab his offending hand and crank sankyo on hard and fast. If done real time uke is still moving towards you as you crank on sankyo resulting in a very nice break.

A more atemi version has uke grabbing you ie a front choke. use the initial dropping x block to collapse his elbows and pull him toward you. Rebound off his arms and use rising x block to stike neck. From here the pull/twist makes a very nice head crank, ie break or hard fall.

will

Tatsu
12th November 2002, 08:22
Could also be interpreted as a cross-choke...

Jay Vail
15th November 2002, 11:01
There is really only one reason for using an upward X block. That is to catch the arm when the opponent is making a downward blow at the head, as in an icepick stab with a knife, a blow with a club and so on.

The reason for using the X formation is that if you use only the rising block, there is a danger of the enemy’s arm slipping off your arm upon a strongly made blow, so that he can recover and strike you again. I have had this happen more than once in free play with weapons. This can be your death if your enemy has a weapon.

Your objective is to catch his arm and only to catch his arm, so that you can then follow up with your technique of choice, whatever it may be -- punch, lock, spit in his face, etc.

The X forms a funnel that prohibits the sliding away of the attacking arm. This block is found in martial arts around the world, including Chinese systems, jujutsu, and European medieval combat wrestling.

One mistake karate people often make with this block, I have observed, is to use it in a static way. That is, they put up the X, take the blow and then pause there for a moment or two before doing anything else.

The proper way to perform the X block is in a fluid, sweeping motion. You put up the block and then as soon as you make contact with the attacking arm, you sweep it to the side and grasp it with one hand or the other, depending on which hand is doing the sweeping.

I have been to knife seminars in which the instructors scoffed at this technique and derided it as useless. They’d have their dummy do this block and freeze at the top like most people do, and then use their blade to cut the arm.

However, these “experts” are surprised when you perform the X in the fluid manner, because you sweep the arm aside and grasp it so quickly that they have no time to react and countercut you. By then you have control and they are doomed.

This is an ancient technique. One would think that the ancient masters would not have included it in their arsenal, or that it would appear around the world over centuries, if it was not useful.

Mike Williams
15th November 2002, 12:31
What Jay said.

A common mistake with the upward x-block is to stay too upright and distant and block uke's forearm - done this way it's very easy for uke's hand to slide out (resulting in nasty cuts if he's holding a knife).

The way I've been taught is to come in low, stepping right in, and blocking at uke's elbow or just above. Then control and lock as previously described. Done this way, the momentum of the blow will extend uke's elbow ready for the lock, and by getting right in uke's 'personal space' he doesn't have so much room to pull the attacking arm out or down.

You're also in a nice position for a nice reaping throw to uke's rear if'n you fancy.

Cheers,

Mike

Jay Vail
16th November 2002, 11:42
Possibly true, Mike. However, respectfully I must say I am not sure about this elbow thing because in a true attack his elbow will be too low. What you describe sounds like a defense designed to defeat a type of attack that you will not face in a true fight.

Very often the X is demonstrated and practiced against an improper and unrealistic attack. The enemy attacks with a rather stiff, extended arm so that the blow approaches from well above the head in a circular manner. But a real attack with the icepick does not approach in this way. Real attacks launch with the hand chambering at the temple or ear level, just like hammering a nail. (Would you hit a nail with that big circular relatively stiff armed blow? Of course not, and neither would you hit a human that way in combat because such a blow is slow and weak.) Thus, the hand and weapon do not approach in a high circular fashion, but more in a straight line or flattened arc. This dynamic changes the way you must defend. Against a true attack, the X must move forward to intercept the forearm, which remains almost vertical until the last moments of the arc, literally jamming the forearm, if you will. The elbow will be too low and will be bent at or almost at a right angle when you intercept, so you will be unable to reach above the elbow.

Spar this attack with a padded weapon with intent, and see if this is not true. Use sticks and wear a helmet. Take as your training partner someone who has little martial arts training. Just tell them to whack you on the head like they really mean it and watch how they perform. More than likely, they will attack with a flat arc rather than a big circle.

Another consequence of using a big circular movement to attack rather than a flat arc is that with the big movement that slicing counter that is so popular with the knifers is a bit easier and quicker to do because they capitalize on their downward momentum. But when the arc is flat, there is less downward momentum and sometimes none at all. This forces the attacker to change the direction of the attack. Changing the direction takes time, only microseconds it is true but time. If the X block is performed as I described above, in a fluid quick nonstop motion, you the defender do not give him the time he needs to perceive that his attack has failed, to form the intention to counter your counter, and then to implement his plan.

kusanku
16th November 2002, 13:34
Originally posted by will szlemko
Hi all,

One of my favorite bunaki for this move involves uke coming at me with a looping/chopping right punch. Use the block in the standard fashion pulling his hand towards your hip, then use your left hammerfist/straight punch (style dependent) to grab his offending hand and crank sankyo on hard and fast. If done real time uke is still moving towards you as you crank on sankyo resulting in a very nice break.

A more atemi version has uke grabbing you ie a front choke. use the initial dropping x block to collapse his elbows and pull him toward you. Rebound off his arms and use rising x block to stike neck. From here the pull/twist makes a very nice head crank, ie break or hard fall.

will

Nice work, Will. Good to see you posting apps, we used to call you the Amazing Will Szlemko on AMAKS with good reason.That atemi was one of my secret techniques up till right then.:-)

Take care

kusanku
16th November 2002, 13:40
I haste to add, I never thought of the followup neck crank. Credit where due, and folks, this man is the real deal.

Its funny that you can tell in print, but you can.Many times, when I used to post bunkai quite a bit, I used to just say, try it carefully with a partner and see if it works.Of course, I know it would, as it was tested many times. I have to say, of people who post techniques like this, the only one who consistently posted better ones than I was taught, is Will.

Others manily posted very basic ones such as Okinawan masters tend to teach openly to at least some students, but the ones like Will posted, those are complete techniques, in some cases more complete than anything I ever saw or thought of.It opens up many insights to see even one posted, and that is now a technique of mine, too. Love to swipe a good technique/:D Like the momentum reversing sankyo too, although I enjoy doing a straight forward shoulder lockout ikkyo and send them upward with it, too.Get that lock out, point their wrist at their shoulder and shoulder at their ear, whether straight or bent arm matters not, and any one on the planet will go where you point your index finger.Up,up and away.Couldn't resist that, guys.:-)

Tatsu
16th November 2002, 23:42
Blocking at the wrist would be more effective. I don't know about being so close to the elbow.

As for using this tech as a strike against a front choke, leading into a neck crank, I dunno. There are plenty of other striking and grappling techs that could do the job more effectively and efficiently. Why wouldn't you just break the choke to the outside, grab his arms at the crook of the elbow, and pull him in for a headbutt?

Why wouldn't you just break the choke with an outward motion of your arms, strike or double eye-gouge and follow up with a standing gyaku-juji-jime (rev. cross choke/lock), pulling him into your guard for increased leverage if needed (especially if one-on-one)?

No one has mentioned the Okinawan bunkai that I learned for this tech.. A lot of this sounds like standard Modern Karate apps.. I'm waiting to see what you cats really know....

Mike Williams
17th November 2002, 23:50
Hmmm, you guys are probably right - the x-block app I was referring to definitely applies to "dojo" attacks. Having said that, it works against them. Let's hope my next mugger decides to do it that way...

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Cheers,

Mike

Sochin
18th November 2002, 15:26
I don't believe that I would ever use this against a knife attack but I do believe it is good practice as an entry into an outside arm bar with your cross body hand, my favorite move against amaturish, untrained, off balance attacks - thankfuly the only kind I get at work.

Tho both hands are used in the block, only one has any real job to do depending on which side the attack is coming from. It is done as a fluid move, pulling down into the arm bar.

kusanku
18th November 2002, 20:36
This has also been my experience, as Ted points out this would eb a terrible thing to try against a real knife attack , as the knife blade could be long, it could slice the wrists, or simplybe done overhand and pass the block for that matter.

But entry for an arm bar, is perfect.

Will's atemi got my praise because it has a complete setting and does work.A croos choke as Bryan points out, is too slow in a fight and can be easily countered by simply slapping the elbows of the choking hand inward, standard Judo defense for the move.

Consider that in the sequence, the first downward fisted x-move, usually comes from the right side with the two hand moving together downnward and across to the left.This could imply a figure four shoulder lock takedown.

Too, the upward open hand x block could be a defense against a wrist grab or lock attempt turning the grabbing hand up into a palm press lock.

Then too, those blocks may not always be blocks. A word to the wise, is sufficient.

Jay Vail
19th November 2002, 11:08
Ted said: Tho both hands are used in the block, only one has any real job to do depending on which side the attack is coming from. It is done as a fluid move, pulling down into the arm bar.

Ted, sounds like you know what you're tallking about. Are you a police officer?

Sochin
19th November 2002, 15:30
Nahh! Just a special care foster parent and muscle in a pull-out Severe Behvior program at high school level - a lot of angry and aggressive teens. They stopped testing me once I had my 2nd Dan!

I couldn't hit them or kick them or let them rampage so arm bars and balance control was it.

Jay Vail
20th November 2002, 09:19
Interesting, Ted. The cops and corrections officers have the same control issues. Here in Florida not long ago, the FHP academy hired a guy to give H2H instruction, a former SEAL or so he claimed. They forced him out because his method was too strike oriented.