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tmanifold
11th November 2002, 21:50
I was wondering why Tanemura Sensei split with Hatsumi. What was te particular beef was he thrown out, left on his own wish. I read in the link provided during the X-Kan ?! thread a reference that the Jinekan was an alternative (to the bujinkan) that was at least run by a decent human being. What's with the animosity? If it has already been discussed to death can some one point me to a thread?

Thanks

Jim_Jude
11th November 2002, 22:12
Can't wait to see where this goes...

Oni
11th November 2002, 22:17
Its my opinion that the reasons for their split up are primarily between Hatsumi sensei and Tanemura sensei. There have been many rumors...much speculation...and many falsehoods spread about. Perhaps someone in the Genbukan may wish to add to this but this is 'one of those questions' that often is best left alone.

NO INSULTING COMMENTS WILL BE TOLERATED.

tmanifold
11th November 2002, 22:43
I don't want a fight but a lead to the info becuase it interests me. I really don't care who was right but some basic info like was Tanemura kicked out or did he leave. Was it a matter of disagreement on technical matters or a personal fued? Etcetra and so on.

John Lindsey
11th November 2002, 23:09
Tanemura S. did have some personal problems with Hatsumi S. in regards to what was being taught, how it was being taught etc. Then, when Tanemura S. got into a fight with a former student of his at the funeral of Hatsumiís mother, things came to a boil. A few days later, he presented Hatsumi S. with his resignation letter. He was not expelled.

I have never been one to avoid this subject. It happened.

Oni
11th November 2002, 23:12
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Tanemura S. did have some personal problems with Hatsumi S. in regards to what was being taught, how it was being taught etc. Then, when Tanemura S. got into a fight with a former student of his at the funeral of Hatsumiís mother, things came to a boil. A few days later, he presented Hatsumi S. with his resignation letter. He was not expelled.

I have never been one to avoid this subject. It happened.

Thanks John. I just have seen a lot of falsehoods and ill will fly around about this situation. Didn't want that to start ;)

Onmitsu
11th November 2002, 23:13
A lot of folks get angry when this subject is brought up. Others just roll their eyes and say "Not again!". Within Japanese custom and culture is the Concept of On and Giri. This is the 'saving face' that is so often referred to with the idea that one should be be allowed to retain their sense of honour. I think many of the people in the know don't ever answer this question because they are trying to perserve the honour of their Instructors or respective masters.
I have a deep and abiding respect for all of the instructors of the Kans. I could fit into a thimble what I know compared what they possess in knowledge and experiance. I for one am in no position to judge or speculate on their motivations.

Benjamin Peters
11th November 2002, 23:35
Check out this thread (old, but goodie) (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=3ml5md%241ta%40uuneo.neosoft.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dtanemura%2Bhatsumi%2Bsplit%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D3ml5md%25241ta%2540uuneo.neosoft.com%26rnum%3D1)

John Lindsey
11th November 2002, 23:35
I think the ones in the know don't answer it, because this site is ran by a Genbukan Budouka and it may offend him and the various Genbukan members if the truth came out.

Thats a bunch of BS. What friggen truth? I think the truth is that you don't know what the heck you are talking about and only bothered to listen to 23rd hand rumors. And where were you in 1983?


I would love to hear the truth as you see it....

Jim_Jude
11th November 2002, 23:43
What was that, Man!?! :toot:

Peter Holden
12th November 2002, 00:04
Johns story is correct.

At the time Hatsumi-sensei was caring for his mother who had been dieing of cancer over a prolonged period. Hatsumi-sensei was also very sick with a stress related illness and thought he himself would die soon. Therefore Tanemura-sensei had been put in charge of running the dojo. Several of the other shihan had complained to Hatsumi-sensei about the way he was teaching and Tanemura-sensei even expelled one of these people, who had been Tanamura-sensei's student from the start anyway. Hatsumi-sensei doesn't involve himself in personality clashes so he ignored the protests of the other shihan and told the expelled man that he could still train. At the funeral of Hatsumi-sensei's mother this all came to a head when Tanemura-sensei and the expelled student came face to face. After this loss of face by Tanemura-sensei he resigned and formed his own organisation - the Genbukan.

So you could say the problem wasn't between Hatsumi-sensei and Tanemura-sensei but between Tanemura-sensei and the other shihan. Even so Hatsumi-sensei was very upset because of this incident and several that followed such as the confrontation between Tanemura-sensei and the widow of Takamatsu-sensei.

The Jinenkan is a bit different in that it was just a gradual separation in philosophy until the point where Manaka-sensei thought the best option was to write a polite letter and start his own group. That is why many Bujinkan people are hostile towards the Genbukan but not the Jinenkan.

John Lindsey
12th November 2002, 01:18
Peter,

Thanks for the post. I am not sure about Hatsumi S. being sick at this time (life threatening). I thought that was MUCH earlier. For the record, I seem to recall that Tanemura S. ran his own school during this time, and didn't take over Hatsumi Sensei's since I don't think he had a dojo, except for at his house. I think you are mixing up events from the early 1970's with 1983.

R Erman
12th November 2002, 01:20
Gee, and I thought it was some business scheme cooked up by both Hatsumi-sensei and Tanemura-sensei to make the real-life "ninja" own up to their fictional counterparts by creating enmity between rival ninja "clans"..I guess I was wrong.

In case anyone cannot tell, the above is a joke, a stab at humor.

I hope that this thread can stay civil.

Peter Holden
12th November 2002, 02:25
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Peter,

Thanks for the post. I am not sure about Hatsumi S. being sick at this time (life threatening). I thought that was MUCH earlier. For the record, I seem to recall that Tanemura S. ran his own school during this time, and didn't take over Hatsumi Sensei's since I don't think he had a dojo, except for at his house. I think you are mixing up events from the early 1970's with 1983.

Your right Hatsumi-sensei didn't have a dojo at this time. His classes were held at his house or sometimes a room at a local bathhouse was used. What I meant was as Hatsumi-sensei wasn't teaching at the time he told the others to train at Tanemura-sensei's dojo.

As for Hatsumi-sensei's stress related illness I believe he suffered at various times during the '70's and was quite sick in 1983. Maybe because of his mother's death.

Jim_Jude
12th November 2002, 02:48
Originally posted by Shojin
I can understand the question. It is natural to want to know I guess. But only Hatsumi S. and Tanemura sensei KNOW what is between them. Both have their side of the story, believe who you want.

It has ZERO to do with YOUR ability in the art. As I look around my house here, I don't see Tanemura Sensei OR Hatsumi S. anywhere to be found. The bills I get in the mail everyday are addressed to ME not either of them, they did not help me rake the leaves AGAIN today, and they will not be in my back pocket to save my ass if I get jumped when I go to the store later for milk.

Whatever happened happened in 1983 or 84 between to people in JAPAN. Why it would have ANY menaing in MY life I don't know. Anyway, I have to go do 10 rounds on the bag. Have fun playing he said she said...:rolleyes:

This is Ssssss-oooooooh true. I had a discussion like this at the dojo, people were wanting to know the facts in case they ever "needed to defend the Bujinkan". I laughed so hard & told them that the only thing that would defend the Bujinkan was THEIR Budo. I totally agree with you. It is supremely unimportant what happened 20 years ago. I'm sure that the men envolved are beyond it, and we should get over it too. Idle curiousity is one thing, but wanting ammunition to validate your choices of training is just silly. Some guys had an argument. Big deal. They obviously were having differences before that... big deal.
People have differences. Damn, I'm GLAD they do!

BigJon
12th November 2002, 03:02
Anyone see the Ravens recover a fumble, only to have it chopped out of their own hands due to a cocky runner?(Comic relief):D
Jon Gillespie

Chris Schimdt
14th November 2002, 20:46
In keeping with the current theme. I like my Sensei. That's what counts...

Onmitsu
14th November 2002, 22:55
It sounds as if the Bujinkan keeps quiet about something, because they don't want Hatsumi-sensei to lose Honor.

Janty,
This is exactly the opposite of what I was trying to convey.
I was trying to infer that speaking half truths and second hand stories about what is largely a personal matter between our respective Sokes would be dishonorable. I believe if you take off your 'selective reading glasses':) you will notice that I also said in my post that I had the utmost respect for all of the Sokes. I think that Hatsumi S. is included in the list as well. Sorry if I offended. This was not my intention.
:smilejapa

Onmitsu
15th November 2002, 18:49
But you can see how I misinterpreted what you meant.

Yes, you've been in the batcave for too long.:D
(Holy nitpick, Batman!)