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Crusader21
12th November 2002, 00:45
Dear Friends,

I came out of the movie lastnight after watching I guess what would be called a 'Gangsta Movie.' The girlfriend wished to see "8 Mile," and in all honesty I was a little curious about it too.

In watching the movie and upon leaving the theater I noticed that the film had attracted a different sort of crowd. It was a tough crowd... the kind that had something to prove... something to say... and the kind of people that liked to be noticed as it seemed.

Upon leaving the theater I had heard some people behind me swearing in a particularly rude and obnoxious way. I looked behind me only for a short second which must have been my big mistake... for it was at that time they were looking directly at me. I then looked away and proceeded to the washrooms as my girlfriend went to her restroom.... but as I opened the door... I gave one small glance back at the three guys (I was just wishing to be conscious of where they were.... as they seemed the type of characters that would make trouble). Still they were looking directly at me...and watched me as I entered the washroom. The room was rather full and I didn't really feeling like placing myself in a position vulnerable to attack.... but there was a mirror where I could see a clear reflection of the door. I positioned myself so that I could see the door clearly in the mirror.... (A little nervous at this point) however the gentlemen who I were concerned about did not enter.

I simply washed my hands... and then left the washroom. I stood out in the lobby and waited for the girlfriend. As I waited the group was still standing there. They seemed to mind there own business doing there own thing... and I in turn did all I could to avoid looking in there direction. The girlfriend came out... and we proceeded out the doors into the street.... I looked back quickly just to check and see where they were since we were now leaving a public place of safety. And still they were staring my direction. I asked Lisa (Girlfriend) to walk a little quicker until we got to the vehicle and then explained to her on the way what the problem was.

We weren't followed at all... and it seems that I was nervous about nothing. Nevertheless the whole experience had me deeply agitated.

I'm confused:

I've spent so much of my life trying to avoid trouble and conflict at all costs. Simply by trying to be the person who is not noticed... and will not be apart of conflict. Lisa's comment to me on the way out was... "Don't look so suspicious all the time."

It took me a little while to come to the conclusion that in trying to control the Ego... and trying to be invisible or non-existent to those who seek trouble..... I've been actually revealing myself as a target.

Lisa.. (the psychology major) continued to tell me that if I'm thinking I'm being watched or that I'm always thinking about myself in terms of protection... I'm actually inviting attention to myself when in all this time... I thought I was eliminating it. In all my actions of hiding myself... I've actually revealed more of it and simply allowed my Ego to grow... as opposed to hiding it.

Rather than the bold and up front Ego of "See Me, hear Me!!!!"..... I've said an even louder statement to those who seek trouble.... "Don't see me, don't hear me!!!!!!"

The great lesson came to me when I was told... "Not to look so suspicious." I was quite upset by that statement. I suppose that if I had real control over the Ego... I would not have been as upset?????

It would seem that the diminishmet of Ego swings both ways. You can be one who is obvious in trying to be noticed.... or one who is obvious in trying NOT to be noticed.

Can anyone out there tell me then... is the diminishment of Ego really meaning... trying to be like the most common person so that we go un-noticed???

Lisa had not only given me a Lesson without combat.... but she had also let me feel my own flaw through the emotion of anger. She is not a martial artist in any way....................but for someone I've never fought before.... she really kicked my ass.. :( :( :(

Can someone clear some things up for me on EGO????

HELP SOS

-Crusader
-Darryl Feilen :cry: :smilejapa

n2shotokai
12th November 2002, 06:55
IMO no one can answer this but you. Everyone has their own comfort level.

Some people become uncomfortable with themselves when they are not at all times a raging egomaniac that they constantly feed. Perhaps if they are not constantly telling themselves they are the greatest then they perceive it as a sign of weakness.

Others feel guilty at the slightest hint of ego. Although I think just about antbody can be sucked into the ego trap.

I would suggest that you learn to observe people without making eye contact. As though you don't have a care in the world, look past people, to the left or right. Watch from your periphery, not directly. IMO it is better to observe everything about your surroundings while appearing to be oblivious.

Steve Beale

Tatsu
12th November 2002, 08:13
First off, your lady is probably FINE! That may have been why they were hawking you, or looking in your direction. The art of appearing tough and alert without looking antagonistic is prevalent amongst a lot of cats, especially urban kids. They were probably just buggin' over you buggin'-out and giving them the death-stare over some obscenities. You aren't the morality police and if those words weren't directed at you then you should'a perceived the ruckus and its location, peripherally like homey said, and left it at that.

Being aware doesn't mean looking skiddish or paranoid. Eye-contact is a no-no on the street, unless you know someone or are trying to mack on a chick! If you do make eye contact by accident, then acknowledge someone's presence with a head nod or a "what's up?", so they'll know you're cool. Look confident not mean. Words can only hurt you if you let them. Don't let words lead to physicality because your feelings were hurt by obscenities. Ridiculous. Let's worry about concrete attempts to hurt and destroy us, like wars, bombs, bullets and such. Chill, and don't sweat the little things.....

Bustillo, A.
12th November 2002, 08:42
First and foremost, your biggest mistake was going to see that movie by 'Enema.'

Re. Eye contact. I disagree with with folks advising to avoid it.
Avoid staring, however, for several reasons, you 'should' make eye contact. Furthermore, there is no need to strut around like a game cock yet you should display an alert demeanor.

Goju-Ryu
12th November 2002, 10:28
I think that your idea of not getting into trouble is the right one, but don't get too focused on it...

If that is your intention then it will naturally occur...
It doesn't mean that you won't have trouble for the rest of your life, but at least if they occur they won't be caused by you!
Remember that there are always persons that only feel good with other person's "bad luck".

Sometimes I act +/- like you have described you've acted, I don't know why... but probably is not to be "caught" unprepared :D

Probably we're aware of the consequnces of a physical confrontation and try to avoid it!

n2shotokai
12th November 2002, 15:36
Originally posted by Goju-Ryu
Sometimes I act +/- like you have described you've acted, I don't know why... but probably is not to be "caught" unprepared :D


This thread has brought up some interesting points. Being prepared is one. In my experience I have found that if you train repetitively, over and over reactions to situations it is best for me when I have no time to think, I just react automaticaly. I have observed the same in students as well. That being said, I often find myself in the "being prepared" state.

Eye contact. I work in East Los Angeles, drive by capitol of the world. You can get shot here by honking at the wrong person or just looking at same. I have learned it is best to mind your own business. It is no game here. It is not enough to "think" you are the baddest mofo in the valley, you had better "be" the baddest. Martial Arts are next to worthless when the baddest is 20-50 feet away and holding a gun. As my goal is to avoid conflict, I also avoid eye contact. In the dojo I look through people, not at their eyes. I was taught to remove yourself emotionaly from the situation and look at the whole environment, never eyes. To each their own.

Steve Beale

Bustillo, A.
12th November 2002, 17:10
[QUOTE]Originally posted by n2shotokai
[B]In my experience I have found that if you train repetitively, over and over reactions to situations it is best for me when I have no time to think, I just react automaticaly.

[AB responds]
Mr. Beale,

Weren't you the one who stated thet you 'wouldn't dream of hitting someone in kumite with gloves, pads etc.'
Don't be too surprised when your automatic reaction will be to not land a blow.
'You'll react the way you train.'


[Beale] That being said, I often find myself in the "being prepared" state.

[AB]
I agree that one should be aware of his surroundings.

[Beale]Eye contact. I work in East Los Angeles, drive by capitol of the world. You can get shot here by honking at the wrong person or just looking at same. I have learned it is best to mind your own business. ..... As my goal is to avoid conflict, I also avoid eye contact. In the dojo I look through people, not at their eyes. I was taught to remove yourself emotionaly from the situation and look at the whole environment, never eyes. To each their own.


[AB]
It is not a game in Los Angeles, Kansas City, Miami, Chicago, New York, Seattle, or anywhere else.

Furthermore, it is important to differentiate between 'eye contact', 'staring someone down' and being intrusive when looking at a person. You can make eye contact while minding your own business and one reason you'd want to make momentary 'eye contact is to let the potential trouble-maker know that you are aware of him. For the most part, thugs like to prey on people who appear unsuspecting. Avering your gaze, hoodlums may take that for a sign of weakness or scared; they love to harass you.

There are different opinions on where one should focus their gaze during a fight. You don't need to fixate on his eyes, yet, depending on the person, sometimes you can get an idea as to his intentions' by looking in through 'the window'.

And, if you choose to do so, you can train yourself to look at the eyes while seeing every movement around through peripheral vision.

n2shotokai
12th November 2002, 18:03
I believe the original topic was ego. As these threads point out, everyone has a different flavor. Everyone needs to be comfortable with who/what they are. If someone is not comfortable with themself, then I suggest re-evaluating who you are and what you want to be.

It has been my experience that that baddest mutha in the valley is the one who does not boast, you probably didn't even notice, is non-confrontational and has nothing to prove to himself or anyone else.

Steve Beale

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are only opinions based upon personal experience and preferences. These opinions are by no means to be taken as the only, best or better viewpoint than anyone elses opinion. Statements have not been made to inflame, antagonize or contradict. They are only statements of differing opinions. It's almost all good.

Goju-Ryu
12th November 2002, 18:40
I don't know if now I'm going a little bit off-topic, if that happens I'm sorry ;)

About training cuntless times the same exercise, movement, technique, etc. I think that is and always have been one of the methods people and "Samurais" and warriors have always used in order to achieve a mental state known as "Mushin" (No Mind), where your mind should be clear so that you can react instantly.


Didn't you ever felt that you made something spectacular and what you really wanted to do without apparently think, while sparring in training, in competition, in everyday situations?

It happens with me sometimes and after it I have to stop a while and think "WOW, I really did that?" or "I didn't even think and ZAS I made it" ;)

Just my 2 cents...

Once more I'm sorry if I'm quite off-topic here, but how could I be off-topic if I remembered to write this while thinking about this thread? :p

CEB
12th November 2002, 21:09
I make eye contact with everybody that passes by. I always have, not for any martial reasons or anything self-protection related. It is just my nature. I'm a farm boy. I grew up on a farm, went to school at the county seat which had a city population of 1800 people and everybody knew everybody and I guess that is why I make eye contact with everyone. Then again, maybe not but its the best reason I can come up with off the top of my head for my behavior. I've got around quite a bit due to some of the jobs that I have had. I'm a musician (now just a weekend warrior, eventually got a real job) and once I drove a big truck all over US and Canada(long time ago).

A funny thing I notice is that when I make eye contact with strangers is that in, shall we say less well to do neighborhoods, people tend to return eye contact and nod or do something to acknowledge your existence. In more well to do places people seem more prone to look really straight ahead ,or look down or otherwise not return eye contact.

Goju Man
12th November 2002, 23:28
I agree with Antonio, I wouldn't have been there in the first place.:D But it seems that the what was on your mind was uncertainty, and a sterotypical portrait of anyone in mega baggy pants with their boxers out. Remember that this is a fad, many kids who couldn't be any further from gangstas dress that way. However, you should have known the type of language that would be used in a place like that, if you were offended, you shouldn't have been there.
I never shy away from eye contact but don't stare anyone down. You sound like you felt threatened without any actual threat. The conflict is in your own mind. As long as you know what your talent level and fighting ability are, you should not have been bothered by that. Sort of like being jeleaous of your girl, If you're confident in your relationship, why worry?

Crusader21
13th November 2002, 00:46
Thank you Everyone,

Thanks for all of the wonderful insight. Many questions have been answered.

I'm getting the over all impression that for a dangerous situation eye contact should be always peripheral (side vision) or else looking beyond. The gentlemen in this case seemed potentialy dangerous... and I wished very much to be aware of them. Looking by 'Non-looking' would seem to be the steps to take???

However... in some cases... it would seem that eye contact is more appropriate to let the potential agressors know that YOU are aware of them. To some people though... this may be considered a signal that..... "The starring competition has begun.... so now when do we fight???"

One person in these threads has suggested that only I will know at which juncture what is best to do. However I would like more feedback if possible. Is there a right time to look with the eyes?? Is there deffinately a time not to look with the eyes??? Or... on a real human level... should eye contact really matter at all?

I'd like to believe that eye contact is a good thing....and it is those who make an issue of it that have the problem. Eye contact in this case stemmed from my desire to be safe. I guess to many I hint at my own insecurity from the motion of simple eye contact. But is it not those who chose to take advantage of eye contact that have the real probably and are possibly in the wrong???????

Thanks again everyone

Crusader
-Darryl Feilen

gmanry
13th November 2002, 03:12
Soft eyes are very important in these situations, by appearing to look at something else you can still be looking at a target. You might have been able to look at the movie posters, the candy stand marquee, etc. I do this all the time. Be paranoid but don't look paranoid. Timing is important too, wait five seconds before you turn to look at them, then they will be onto something else. They were probably waiting for somebody to look at them. It is a game.

Today while training by myself in a park, I had two separate instances of Mr. Redneck in his chuga chuga four by four cruising by slowly. I can see them coming a block away, I stop, appear to be stretching and looking at different things while they cruise by. Today one of them came because of the other one, my gut told me, call it a hunch. "Hey Rufus, there is this guy doin' that Kayratee at the park."

I did lock eyes with him at the end, because he was definitely watching me in an unfriendly way. He was a fireplug barely able to see over the steering wheel, and he was young. He drove on. I live in a small Wyoming town, the chances of him actually doing anything other than looking like a moron was the same as me passing a brick of gold after my morning oatmeal.

In your instance, you were dealing probably with slightly more provocative people. I had a lot of that in Durham, NC, a nasty little town by the way.

Soft eyes help you to avoid the unwinnable "You lookin' at me" attitude adopted with the help of the MTV mentality. It is a game you can't win, you don't look at them, they get louder and louder, so when you finally do look at them, Bingo, they get to drag their knuckles on the ground. It is a game to them, but one with serious consequences.

The key is to be smarter than they are, against most kids, not too hard. For the pros, well, these guys weren't pro bad guys. I agree with Tatsu, they were probably just out and about. That doesn't mean that things couldn't have gotten ugly though.

There is a time to switch from soft eyes to "hard" eyes, good recources for this can be found in some books:

"The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker is a must read for all martial artists.

Can't remember his name but he wrote a lot of books on dealing with the sucker punch, etc. bouncer, bald big guy. Somebody help me out. His books have a lot of anecdotal clues in them, not always good on the technical stuff though.

Matt Thomas' Model Mugging book is a good one too for psychological considerations in a real self-defense situation.

Lastly, whew, how you deal with situations in everyday says a lot about how you will deal with self-defense. This can mean many things. Don't be too high strung. Don't be too laid back. Anger is a killer. As Musashi said, let your every day posture be your fighting posture. The middle way is sometimes best until you have to act.

Just my thoughts on this, but it has let me avoid a considerable amount of rough rapscallions and ruthless rabble. (Bring forth Bwian!)

Good night all...

Crusader21
13th November 2002, 04:18
Mr Manry...

Thank you kindly for the thoughtful reply. I have taken down the book names and look forward to studying on my onw a little more on the concept of "Soft Eyes." I have not heard this expression before. I always thought I had a descent grasp on it... but it seems I do not.

Thank you again to all..

I will maintain my checks in here to see what more information everyone provides.

Cheers and goodevening...

Darryl Feilen,
Crusader 21

PS... Do they still offer Karma in E-Budo.. (that Karma points thing)???

Mike Williams
13th November 2002, 10:29
Antonio - excellent post! Thanks!

I'd just like to add that an appropriate amount of eye contact is an essential tool in "talking down" a potential confrontation.

I sometimes think that we martial artists forget that verbal de-escalation is often an option. Much like a salesman making a sale or a lawyer addressing a jury, making eye contact goes a long way to getting your point across.

As mentioned before, just don't start staring them down.

Cheers,

Mike

MarkF
14th November 2002, 01:47
PS... Do they still offer Karma in E-Budo.. (that Karma points thing)???


It is there, click on the little green (or red if that person has bad, or minus points), but it will be gone with the next upgrade of E-budo software.

"Don't stare, but don't look away, either."

That is a decent, though very generalized, way of staying out of someone's face.


Mark

Steve C
14th November 2002, 17:49
Can't remember his name but he wrote a lot of books on dealing with the sucker punch, etc. bouncer, bald big guy. Somebody help me out. His books have a lot of anecdotal clues in them, not always good on the technical stuff though.

It's Geoff Thompson. Easy to find on the web.

gmanry
15th November 2002, 01:30
Although I am sure his books cover the same issues, he is not who I was thinking of in my post.

I haven't been able to find him yet. However, I am sure Mr. Thompson's books would be useful as well.

Bustillo, A.
15th November 2002, 08:43
Originally posted by gmanry
Although I am sure his books cover the same issues, he is not who I was thinking of in my post.
I haven't been able to find him yet. However, I am sure Mr. Thompson's books would be useful as well.


You can read about geoff Thompson here.

http://www.geoffthompson.com/

CEB
15th November 2002, 14:28
He looks awlful pale. There must be two famous martial art people named Geoff Thompson. I don't think they are related.

Goju Man
15th November 2002, 19:51
You should have just ripped off a full power Kusanku kata right there! :D Just an idea.:cool:

Sochin
15th November 2002, 23:38
I checke the site Ed, and it looks liek the same old Geoff to me.

The give-away is Peter Consadine, a name often in conjunction with his.

CEB
16th November 2002, 02:44
Sorry, I never heard of that Geoff Thompson. I found out the the man I was thinking of spells his name Jeff Thompson. He is former WUKO World Champion. He is the 3rd man from the left.

http://www.budo.se/karate/Tavlingar/vm2000/gamlamastarna.jpg

Steven Malanosk
16th November 2002, 03:49
People respond to vibes.

Body language, can stop, or cause vibes.

Carrying yourself with an air of confidence, is important, in business, in daily dealings, and in an environment full of predators.

Carrying yourself with an air of cockiness, attracts the wrong type of attention.

Just as the guard's weapon, can be either a deterrent, or the reason he was found dead in the morning, situation dictates the rule.

Fish eyes, or the type that avoid contact, are often scrutinized as weakness or sneakiness.

In some cultures, eye contact is considered disrespect.

Eye contact, is essential, when dealing legitimately with proper people in the West.

Making eye contact, in the company of the criminal, or predator element, is to trigger a "lock on," mode.

In answer to the original posting:

You, without realizing it, entered their world, and invited them to "lock on" to you. A better idea, is to stay in your world, aware of your surroundings, confident, introverted as to your and your woman's recreation, and extroverted, only to that that is a welcome part of your world. Everything else is unimportant.

Hang out on the Hip Hop scene, and expect lewd and rude behavior.

Go to a punk club, and stand in the pit, and expect to be bumped into.

Take your woman to either place, and you either better be able to go with the flow, or elsewhere.

Once again, situation dictates the rule. In my line of work, I deal with some pretty extreme individuals. From the armed bank robbers and gang banging drug dealers, who more times than not show me some pretty tight respect, to the little skinny wanna be, who just short of gets in my face, with borderline threatening inuendo. :p

You never know what to expect.

kusanku
18th November 2002, 20:49
Originally posted by Goju Man
You should have just ripped off a full power Kusanku kata right there! :D Just an idea.:cool:

And a good one, too!:D

Considering all the sudden eminem wannabes running the streets trying to look like the anemic rabbit character from the movie eight mile,I think if you did do a full power Kusanku, they'd think it was the latest Hip Hop step from rape music, I mean rot music, I mean ralph music, you know what I mean,and there'd suddenly be a whole town full of people trying to do Kusanku kata. With any luck, the jump kick alone or the drop and sweep move, would pull so many hamstrings and groin muscle, that most of the hood wannabes would be off the street and in casts or traction.

Anyway, if you can do a full power Kusanku kata and do it well, you are one, in good shape since the form has from sixty-four to eighty moves:D depending on which Kusanku you perform, and two, you probably know a lot about karate, since it is a pretty advanced form,not usually well learned until around shodan at least.So, if you can do this, you probably are no one to take lightly.

iF HOWEVER, YOU SUDDENLY ARE SUROUNDED BY BRAINDEAD-LOOKING DUDES WEARING WATCHCAPS AND VAPID DRUG HEAD EXPRRESIONS ON their PASTY LOOKING FACES, YOU MIGHT WANT TO TAKE YOUR BATROPE OUT OF YOUR UTILITY BELT AND MAKE A QUICK ESCAPE.

Failing which, you may want to turn Teutonic and Vack 'em mit dawse Shotei.I'M TOLD THIS WORKS.Sounds like it might.

Ennyway, time for luntch, most important meal of the day if you don't eat breakfast.

Goju Man
18th November 2002, 21:51
Or when all else fails, 'vack 'em!:D

kusanku
19th November 2002, 23:07
Undt mit dawse Shotai, at dawt!:D
Vack! No more to it, der fight is over, undt you go home.:D

Goju Man
20th November 2002, 04:00
You're catching on my boy!:D


Speaking of egos, it takes a flexible ego to start in a new system or art and strap on a white belt again. I've seen guys wearing a high belt in jiu jitsu and can't perform near that level. Just an observation. I think sometimes we're into what rank we're wearing and forget about the important thing, training. What good is an twentieth dan if you aren't that good?



;)

Crusader21
20th November 2002, 19:53
Goju Man,

It's interesting that you spoke about wearing a white belt again. I will be doing this in a short while today for my first class of what I think is called 'Yoshinkai Aikido.' I'm looking forward to this class greatly.

When leaving the Aikido dojo and speaking to the sensei about my first class, he said to bring my gi and wear either a white belt or my black belt from my current Karate style. In receiving this option, I felt it necessary to go and get myself a brand new white belt so that I may honor him entirely as a student rather than making it known in the class that I feel I"m somewhat efficient in another art form.

I suppose this is beside the point though. My question is really... "How is it that you think students become over ranked?" You said that you have seen martial artists who are at a level that they cannot nearly perform. Are they not really grasping the true sense of martial arts if they are chosing to accept a rank that is beyond there abilities???

The absolute last thing I would want in my studies is to be over ranked. I would rather be a Shodan for the rest of my life and be thought by some people that I could move forward from this rank, than to be receiving a belt that I don't feel reflects my abilities. Or are some people not looking deep inside themselves... and accepting a rank that they feel really does reflect there abilities, when it may actually not???

It's all a little confusing to me. In the end... what's in the belt??? It is the warrior inside that makes a good martial artist, not the belt that is tied around your waist. I'd still much rather be under ranked.

Darryl Feilen,
Crusader 21

kusanku
20th November 2002, 22:17
Originally posted by Goju Man
You're catching on my boy!:D


Speaking of egos, it takes a flexible ego to start in a new system or art and strap on a white belt again. I've seen guys wearing a high belt in jiu jitsu and can't perform near that level. Just an observation. I think sometimes we're into what rank we're wearing and forget about the important thing, training. What good is an twentieth dan if you aren't that good?



;)

With humble pride,:D, I proudly claim my sankyu in Judo that I got, I think, in 1969, and also that in the William C.C. Ch'en style of Taijiquan despite practicing it for nine years now, I have no rank at all. I also have no rank in Shotokan karate or in certain other styles, which I nonetheless practiced for decades on the side, as it were, for fun.

In other styles they gave me rank before I could duck, so there it was,Good for scaring white belts and impressing people who know little.

And that ain't bad.:D

Rank is merely for within a dojo or organization, supposedly to show who has the knowledge and experience for teaching the art.

But if you can really vack csomeone, mit dat Shotai, ven idt really coundts, den, My Son, you are a true martial artist.So, if ven trouble comes, gifs mit der shotei.Vack! No rank to it.Chust smack dem a goot one!

Goju Man
20th November 2002, 23:02
But if you can really vack csomeone, mit dat Shotai, ven idt really coundts, den, My Son, you are a true martial artist.So, if ven trouble comes, gifs mit der shotei.Vack! No rank to it.Chust smack dem a goot one!
That's the biggie, doing it when it counts.;)

kusanku
25th November 2002, 21:49
The funny thing is, one of the kata bunkai I was taught some time ago, is that the top hand of the ready position of a block where the bottom shoots under and the elbows cross and lock, and the top open hand strikes across, is the Vack mit der Shotai.

Vorks goot, too.:D

Goju Man
28th November 2002, 00:54
John, what about the infamous jumping 360 in a melee?:D

Happy Thanksgiving Johnny V.;)

kusanku
28th November 2002, 23:54
That is the actual bunkai for the move in Matsubayashi ryu chinto and kusanku, where one spins three sixty degrees, in Ansei Ueshiro's organization , as presented by Bob Scaglione Kyoshi in his books on the style.

What I use those for however, besides figuring out who would be behind me, would be in Chinto, as a spinning armlock on a guy you lock and use as a broom, sweeping away those around you, which has worked well in practice but never met the situation as such for real, and in kusanku, as part of a technique where you crescent kick to the leg and smack the guy bvehind the shoulder blades and land fists firt on him , driving him face first into the floor, sounds like it would hurt,and as Sochin said, the other thing makes poerfectly good shorin sense, as Shorin ryu is meant, as Funakoshi said, to be swift as the flighht of a falcon.Since, even though I lost ffifty pounds, I don't do Falcon, in my case, it is meant to be as swift as the flight of a large Andean Condor.:D

Of course, the Gankaku version of Chinto from Shotokan, ssaid to present the majestic sight of a crane standing on a rock, and which includes a three sixty spin into a side snap kick and backfist. is a move the practical application of which, I got no idea what that would be.

Used to call that Kata, 'Crane Falling Off a Rock.:DBecause of how I did it.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and alll of yours, Manny!

John