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Yamantaka
30th January 2001, 23:30
Hello!

Does anyone knows anything about HISASHI NAKAMURA and Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha Aiki no Jutsu, represented in Austria by Siegfried Kobilza or an organization called International Society for Takeda Budo ?
Any links with Aikijujutsu?
Best regards
Yamantaka

Roger Lake
31st January 2001, 20:58
I don't know about the Austrian group, but I have a copy of a Takeda-ryu manual from Romania which is affiliated with the Nakamura group. It is my understanding that Nakamura(Takeda-ryu) is mostly represented in Europe by Roland Maroteaux(I could be mistaken). I also have a Japanese Takeda-ryu manual with Nakamura himself. I don't know too much about their history, the techniques are actually quite good. Simple and efficient.

Roger Lake

Brently Keen
1st February 2001, 02:26
It is my understanding that Nakamura-ha Takeda does not descend directly from Sokaku Takeda, and therefore could not correctly be called a branch of (or descendent from) Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

I'd have to do some digging through old papers to find their supposed lineage to some relative (ancestor) of Sokaku Takeda, hence the "Takeda-ryu" name. As far as I know, this is a modern or reconstructed style, and I've never heard of any documented or other evidence to support the idea that this style is actually related to Daito-ryu, Sokaku Takeda, or his ancestors.

I have seen some of their stuff and it appears to be a jujutsu style very similar to prewar (1930-40's) aikido, but definitely not an aiki no jutsu system. They used to go by the name Takeda-ryu aikido anyway.

Brently Keen

Roger Lake
1st February 2001, 04:48
I believe you are correct Mr.Keen. Definately NOT Aiki no Jutsu. A simple jujutsu system, yes. I am not sure of where they got the Takeda name, but it was not Sokaku from what I understand.

Roger Lake

Roger Lake
1st February 2001, 04:51
I am willing to share the information that I have if you would like to e-mail me:

saucier7@hotmail.com

Roger Lake

m.decroix
8th April 2001, 15:13
Does anyone know about this style of Aikijitsu? Is it known in USA, Canada etc...

M.decroix

Devon Smith
8th April 2001, 15:31
Found their website in Japan:

http://plaza5.mbn.or.jp/~aiki/emain.htm

Devon

Yamantaka
8th April 2001, 22:43
Originally posted by m.decroix
Does anyone know about this style of Aikijitsu? Is it known in USA, Canada etc...

M.decroix

YAMANTAKA : From what we see on their website, they begin with some shady connections with Aikijujutsu and then move on to Aikido(!!!), with apparently no connections with any known organization. Seems strange...
Best

Nathan Scott
9th April 2001, 19:36
Yes, they are mostly in Japan, with several un-recognized study groups (aside from one) internationaly.

They offer competitions in aikido, weapons, empty hand sparring and freestyle. They also have adopted the dan system, and all the pictures on the site are of students who are teenager and younger (displaying pretty poor form while testing for nidan and sandan).

Their lineage claims to split off from the Takeda family (same line as Daito ryu), but there is nothing on their web page that would substantiate such a claim whatsoever.

It appears to be a very modern system geared towards competition, and enjoyed mostly by kids (judging from the information found on their web pages).

Lots of people claiming lineage to the Takeda line in some form or another.

Interestingly, I just checked the web page of Mr. Martiaux of "Takeda-ryu Moroto-ha" fame, and there appears to be some shared terminology between them. Even the crest used by the "Moroto-ha" and "Nakamura-ha" are similar.

Regards,

Yamantaka
9th April 2001, 22:39
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Interestingly, I just checked the web page of Mr. Martiaux of "Takeda-ryu Moroto-ha" fame, and there appears to be some shared terminology between them. Even the crest used by the "Moroto-ha" and "Nakamura-ha" are similar.

Regards,

YAMANTAKA : I believe, Nathan, you are refering to Mr. Roland Maroteaux. He was under Nakamura Sensei but it seems he broke apart and Nakamura Ha is represented in Europe by another fellow. And yes the crests are the same. Pretty confusing...
Best

m.decroix
11th April 2001, 21:33
I'm not telling you that this ryu has the TRUTH about aikido and so on... I did train with nakamura, and he is nice.
I may be wrong but as far I remember there is no weapon teaching in Daito ryu. In Takeda ryu they have: iai jutsu, aikido (jutsu), shuriken jutsu, ju kempo, shugi jutsu (tambo), jojutsu (1meter staff).
I think you should have a look at www.takedaryu.com

It seems that daito ryu is a split branch.

Maroteaux is a well known french teacher that began studying hakko ryu (menkyo kaiden) and finally met nakamura and obtained a menkyo kaiden. It is right that he uses a similary crest. He has no connection with japan nowadays.

m.decroix

Nathan Scott
11th April 2001, 23:39
Hello Mr. Decroix,


I may be wrong but as far I remember there is no weapon teaching in Daito ryu. In Takeda ryu they have: iai jutsu, aikido (jutsu), shuriken jutsu, ju kempo, shugi jutsu (tambo), jojutsu (1meter staff).

Actually, certain branches of Daito ryu do include weapons. It depends on the branch, and what they were taught (or what they developed based off the principles of aiki used).

Information such as this is well documented.


I think you should have a look at takedaryu.com

O.K.

http://www.takedaryu.com/picture/klIaido1.jpg

The English version of the page is filled with photos like these, lots of shihan, and really creative historical interpretations:

http://www.takedaryu.com/picture/1185-52-k.jpg


One year after the death of SHINGEN, TAKEDA TOSA KUNIGUTSU, one of SHINGEN`S brothers, moved to AIZU province and served the governor of AIZU, ASHINA MORIUJI.

...KOSHOMARU changed his name to HOSHINA MASAYUKI and became the first lord of AIZU province. By the will of his brother, SHOGUN IEMITSU, he served as Assisting Prime Minister to the 4th SHOGUN IETSUNA in EDO castle for 23 years, and during that period he appointed DAITO RYU as the official martial art for the high ranking officers and guards of the SHOGUN
residence.

SHINGEN died in 1573 in the civil war. His death marked the end of the power of the TAKEDA family. A year later one of SHINGEN's brothers, TAKEDA KUNITSUGU, went to the principality of AIZU to serve the tribe by the same name. Through him, aspects of the art of AIKI were passed on to the AIZU. Due to the losses suffered by the TAKEDA family, KUNITSUGU decided to change his name to DAITO. This new branch of the family was therefore called the DAITO branch (DAITO-RYU).

The DAITO school, founded in the 16th century, still exists today, as does the main school, which has been called the TAKEDA school since the 12th century.

What history book did this come from?

The curriculum and methods the "Takeda ryu" employ are very much modern. Competitions, kyu/dan ranks, jumping side kicks, etc.

I'm sure an art like this would be very appealing to younger enthusiasts.

Thanks for the link,

Scott Irey
25th April 2001, 07:41
There is a gentleman living in the U.S. who studied at the Takeda-ryu honbu dojo for 10 years. He does not formally instruct in the art, but he does travel to Europe and assists Mr. Kobliza and Mr. Nakamura in their seminars. The Takeda ryu is a legitimate system and they and their history are recognized as such in Japan by the Koryu community. I will contact the gentleman I mentioned and perhaps will be able to convince him to pop in here and answer some of the questions and address some of the insinuations that have been made.

Nathan Scott
25th April 2001, 19:21
Mr. Irey,

Thanks for the info. I'd be interested in hearing more about their art. I actually do not have any pre-conceived ideas, aside from an acquired suspician with regards to branches claiming lineage to Takeda Sokaku, Saigo Tanamo, Takeda Shingen...

Aside from being generally suspicious, my comments and assumptions are based soley off the information given in their web page(s). As such clarifications would be welcome.

Regards,

Ruediger
4th May 2001, 21:55
Hi all,

the history of the Takeda ryu Nakamura Ha is also of interest for me, therefore i would appreciate any comments on the subject.

regards

souran
15th October 2001, 15:48
Greetings to all in the forum!

I am new to e-budo, and came accross this thread while reading into the discussions here.

I practice Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha (in Vienna, Austria), and would be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can.

regards

eric graham

Yamantaka
15th October 2001, 17:01
Originally posted by souran
Greetings to all in the forum!
I am new to e-budo, and came accross this thread while reading into the discussions here.
I practice Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha (in Vienna, Austria), and would be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can.
regards
eric graham

YAMANTAKA : Thank you for your offer, Mr. Graham! The questions have already been presented in this thread. You just have to answer them.
Best

Yamantaka
15th October 2001, 17:03
Originally posted by Scott Irey
The Takeda ryu is a legitimate system and they and their history are recognized as such in Japan by the Koryu community.

YAMANTAKA : Where did you read that or from whom did you hear that?
Curious

souran
16th October 2001, 10:58
The following scan is from the martial arts encyclopedia

“Lexikon der Kampfkünste: China, Japan, Okinawa, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Burma, Indonesien, Indien, Mongolei, Philippinen, Taiwan u.a.” by Werner Lind of the German martial arts association “Budo Studien Kreis” (www.budostudienkreis.de/) - ISBN 3-328-00838-1

I apologize to all in the forum who do not speak German, I only have this reference at hand.

The marked section is about some of the students of Takeda Sogaku. I have taken the liberty of marking the line of instructors from Takeda Sogaku to Nakamura Hisashi, (Takeda Sogaku -> Matsuda Toyosaku -> Oba Sachiyuki -> Nakamura Hisashi) and of translating the underlined passage:

“Oba Sachiyuki accepted Nakamura Hisashi as a student in 1951, who himself began to teach in 1959. In 1972, he named his style, which had already broken off from classic Daito ryu, Nakamura ha Takeda ryu and instructs Iaido, Jodo, Shuriken, Jukempo, Koryu Kendo, Tameshigiri and Aikido.”

http://www.interlingua.co.at/sonstige/halo/takeda_students.jpg

I myself came to this style through my desire to begin the study of the traditional japanese martial arts, not because I was looking for a koryu. My decision to start practicing in this school was not made on the basis of the web page, but on the basis of my speaking with many of the instructors and watching training sessions.

I myself was skeptical about the claims of the lineage of the school, but to be honest, I made my decision to study in the school on the basis of what I saw, not on the basis of any claims.

I am only now beginning to learn about koryu through my research in discussions like this, and through my research into the roots of the arts that I am learning. So I am most probably very naive coming into this discussion.

What that means especially for this discussion is that I am not at all versed in the history of Takeda ryu, and cannot judge the accuracy of the history of takeda ryu on our home page. But as I am interested in learning about this, I am using these questions as starting points in my reasearch.

To answer the questions/statements in the thread so far:

>>From Nathan Scott:
Their lineage claims to split off from the Takeda family (same line as Daito ryu), but there is nothing on their web page that would substantiate such a claim whatsoever. <<

see above

>>From Nathat Scott:
It appears to be a very modern system geared towards competition, and enjoyed mostly by kids (judging from the information found on their web pages). <<

I am not sure which page you are speaking of, I can attest that I have yet to train with kids. We do offer children's training, but by far the majority of us are adults.

Modern system? I am not sure how this is meant, we use a kyu/dan system, but Takeda Tokimune himself introduced a ranking system (I originally wrote in this post that I thought that Takeda Sogaku had introduced a ranking system according to the encyclopedia above, but I was mistaken).

Geared towards competition: in our school, we do not engage in competition for the sake of competition. For us, the many forms of competition that we engage in is an important form of training. Aside from learning to apply waza correctly in different degrees of "free fighting", one purpose is to develop fighting spirit, another is to learn to handle the stress of a fighting situation.

Another excellent benefit of engaging in competition, especially for me, is for example actually experiencing the importance of concepts such as irimi-tai. Practicing irimi-tai for years, for example, is one thing, facing a partner who is intent on striking or throwing you and not applying the evasive strategies that we learn is another.

To put it another way, when my sensei tells me that irimi is important because it gains me crucial time, takes me out of the line of attack and puts me in a position to apply techniques of my own, I understand this fully with my mind. But that was not enough (at least not for me). When I spar with a partner who is 10 times faster than I am, I suddenly experience with something other than my mind how important it is to get out of the line of attack, to gain a crucial half a second because I cannot block as fast as he can strike, and to put myself in a position where I can (attempt to) apply a technique myself.

When sparring in jodo, for example, it is much more difficult to strike an opponent when you are standing in front of him, because his weapon is in your way. When you step out of the line of attack, it is a different story entirely. Yes, you can also stay in the line of attack and succeed with a nice set of combinations (of your opponent doesn't decide to step in and throw you), but when thinking about fighting with an opponent in a battlefield context, it seems to make more sense to choose an option that will allow you to strike and defeat your opponent in as few strikes as possible, in order to save energy. And the longer your opponent is in a position to fight you, the greater the chances that you will yourself be hit. Excuse the digression, I just wanted to illustrate the learning process that I myself go through when the importance of different concepts that I understand with my mind finally "clicks".

Something that is important to note about the school, especially in light of the fact that the thread started with a question about aikijutsu, is that we are not a school of aikijutsu. We are a style encompassing all of the arts listed in the post of mr. decroix.

Our curriculum is broken down into these arts especially for the sake of making it easier for us to grasp and understand things, but the more you study, the more you see, and the more it is made clear that all of the arts that we practice are based on a single set of principles, which is simply adapted to a number of different situations and weapons.

I personally know of no one in our school that only studies one of the arts, we are all encouraged to study all of them, or at least two or three, because dealing with only one of the arts in the school in isolation is not beneficial. I can attest to this fact, as I began studying aikido, iaido and jodo, and later added kendo and jukempo. My experience in the arts that I had been studying was extremely beneficial in the "new" arts, and the new arts themselves opened up entirely new dimensions in and are leading to a far greater deepening of my understanding of the arts that I have been practicing longer.

Now a question of my own to the group: Nathan Scott seems to feel that the lineage of the art presented on the website is dubious, could he or anyone else on this forum provide any further information on errors in this account, or especially references to literature and other resources in this direction? As I said above, I am just beginning my research into the background of these arts and would greatly appreciate any tips or leads to help me on my way.

I hope that this post is helpful, in spite of my lack of knowledge in the history of the japanese martial arts. I will do my best to answer any other questions, or any questions that I have ignored in the thread up until now if they are brought to my attention.

regards

eric graham

George Kohler
16th October 2001, 18:37
I don't know if Takeda ryu has any relationship with Takeda Sokaku. As far as I know, Ohba Ichio learned Takeda ryu from a curtain Nakamura Keichu Yoshitoshi. Apparently, this school claims that it branched off from Daito ryu during Takeda Shingen's time.

souran
16th October 2001, 19:04
consultation of the encyclopedia and other sources indicated that it was takeda tokimune who introduced the ranking system in daito-ryu, not sogaku (I bet a lot of you already knew that...)

Yamantaka
16th October 2001, 19:14
Souran,

In your presentation to the Forum you stated : "I practice Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha (in Vienna, Austria), and would be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can"
Now you say :

" I am only now beginning to learn about koryu through my research in discussions like this... So I am most probably very naive coming into this discussion" [/B]
and

"What that means especially for this discussion is that I am not at all versed in the history of Takeda ryu, and cannot judge the accuracy of the history of takeda ryu on our home page". [/B]
This seems like two markedly different positions.


The marked section is about some of the students of Takeda Sogaku. I have taken the liberty of marking the line of instructors from Takeda Sogaku to Nakamura Hisashi, (Takeda Sogaku -> Matsuda Toyosaku -> Oba Sachiyuki -> Nakamura Hisashi) and of translating the underlined passage:
“Oba Sachiyuki accepted Nakamura Hisashi as a student in 1951, who himself began to teach in 1959. In 1972, he named his style, which had already broken off from classic Daito ryu, Nakamura ha Takeda ryu and instructs Iaido, Jodo, Shuriken, Jukempo, Koryu Kendo, Tameshigiri and Aikido.”[/B]

YAMANTAKA : The site in German that you sent us just states the countries where possibly the art is taught and later some of the offshoots of Daito-Ryu (present time), including one that I never saw before (perhaps true, perhaps not) about the Daito-Ryu teacher of Nakamura Hisashi. The story of Daito-Ryu coming from a long time ago is disputed and many believe that the art was created by Sokaku Takeda himself. So to say, like in the beginning of this thread that the art was an offshoot of Takeda Shingen is a little bit absurd. But It appears the story now is direct descent from S.Takeda.

Nathan Scott says :

"It appears to be a very modern system geared towards competition, and enjoyed mostly by kids (judging from the information found on their web pages)"
and you answered :
"I am not sure which page you are speaking of, I can attest that I have yet to train with kids. We do offer children's training, but by far the majority of us are adults.
Modern system? I am not sure how this is meant, we use a kyu/dan system, but I believe that the encyclopedia quoted above states that Takeda Sogaku himself introduced a ranking system, I will check on that an submit either a retraction or scan of the passage when I get home tonight".[/B]

YAMANTAKA : Nathan San, in my opinion, was very clear. The system appears very modern and not just by the Kyu Dan system. But that was a major breakthrough, since up to modern times, the only system used was the Menkyo system, not concerned with grading but with proficiency in the art's various levels of apprenticeship and the permission to teach. And I believe that Nathan talks about "kids", not in the sense of 6 years old but meaning "young men" (people very much atracted to competition, the basic idea of Jigoro Kano of Judo when he introduced competition in the art).


Something that is important to note about the school, especially in light of the fact that the thread started with a question about aikijutsu, is that we are not a school of aikijutsu. We are a style encompassing all of the arts listed in the post of mr. decroix. [/B]

YAMANTAKA : The point is the school has declared in the past to practice Aikijujutsu, Aiki-no-jutsu and even Aikido. Shouldn't you have a link to DRAJJ to do that?

regards
eric graham [/B][/QUOTE]

bEST

Nathan Scott
16th October 2001, 21:20
Hello Mr. Souran,

As Yamantaka said, my opinions about this style were based exclusively off the information found on the web page posted at the beginning of this thread. If you go there, you will see everything I commented about.

The majority, if not all, the dojo they run in Japan are based out of schools or universities. They hold annual tournaments that look to be focused around grade school and high school kids.

The art is conducted in a VERY modern way, despite their claim to classical roots (which may be true, but remains unsupported).

Your encyclopedia appears to be flawed, since the Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu homepage reports a different lineage line that it does, and the encyclopedia also repeats the mistake of including Choi's name as a student in Daito-ryu.

I'm afraid it is not enough to pick up any book to look for references. Unfortunately, the majority of them are flawed in some respects, and it takes time to learn what the strengths (if any) of each reference are.

In addition to what is written on their webpage, there is also a "gut feeling" (which only translates to "my opinion") that derives from being in the arts for a while. I know this may not be of much value to others, but you will start to develop this as well the more you educate yourself about martial arts and their history.

The Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten lists 21 different traditions of "Takeda-ryu", all of which use the same Takeda family kanji ( 武田 ). All of them are believed to be extinct, except for the Takeda-ryu of mounted archery extant in Kyushu. The specialty of the traditions listed below are quite varied (personal names may be mistranslated):


Takeda Shingen-ryu (gunpo) - military science. The name says it all - different from Koshu-ryu gungaku.

Takeda daito-ryu (jujutsu, aiki, iai, ninjutsu, to [swordsmanship]) - founded by Takeda Tatsuyoshi (or maybe "Masayori" - I don't show either of these names in the Takeda [Shingen] lineage). The last listed headmaster was Kobayashi Otaki in Saitama-ken.

Takeda-ryu (hijutsu) - fire arts.

Takeda-ryu (kyubajutsu) - archery from horseback tradition.

Takeda-ryu (kyuho) - archery methods claiming connections to "Kageyama-ryu iai".

Takeda-ryu (gunpo) - military sciences art from the Fukui-han.

Takeda-ryu (gunba) - military horsemanship.

Takeda-ryu (hojutsu) - gunnery

Takeda-ryu (gunkai) - the art of battle calls using shell horns (aka: jingaijutsu)

Takeda-ryu (jujutsu) - founded by Takeda Goro Yoshimasa.

Takeda-ryu (aiki, jujutsu, tsue, tessen) - Their lineage claims Takeda Nobutoki and Takeda Nobumune (see "keizu" thread).

Takeda-ryu (gunra) - the art of battle calls using spiral shell horns.

Takeda-ryu (suijutsu) - swimming arts.

Takeda-ryu (gunpo) - an alternate name for the Koshu-ryu ("first province tradition") of military sciences (Takeda family military strategy as passed down through retainer Obata Kagenori).

Takeda-ryu (ninjutsu) - reconnaissance art contained within Koshu-ryu gunpo.

Takeda-ryu (kenjutsu, jujutsu) - swordsmanship and jujutsu.

Takeda-ryu (sojutsu) - spearmanship.

Takeda-ryu (jindaiko) - the art of war drumming (battle taiko)

Takeda-ryu (kenjutsu) - swordsmanship.

Takeda-ryu (shurikenjutsu) - spike throwing arts.

Takeda-ryu (hojutsu) - gunnery.

To begin with, it is HIGHLY unlikely that there are 43 generations of headmasters for ANY legitimate ryu-ha. This was one of the first things that hit my "gut".

Their web page lists Minamoto Yoshimitsu as the founder, same as Daito ryu, and claims that Takeda Nobutora (just before Takeda Shingen [1521-1573]) "initiated" - which could mean anything - Takeda Katsuchiyo into the art. Then, "since that period [450 years ago], Takeda-ryu aiki-no-jutsu was succeeded by the Kuroda-ke [family line] in Chikuzen-ken (now Fukuoka-ken)".

Anyway, the above references are all the entries of "Takeda-ryu" arts that are known and considered to have legitimate koryu lineage.

Whether or not you enjoy your training, or if the art is a good art of not, is irrelevant to the issue of it's roots and lineage.

As I'm sure you realize, the Takeda family is one of the oldest and most famous family names in Japan. I'm sure alot of people would like to tie their art to this family (and have tried), which would be an easy claim if the connection to the Takeda family goes back 450 years (typically no way to confirm claims from that long ago).

Good luck with your training. If your curious about the lineage of your art, copy the notes above regarding the Takeda-ryu references found in the BRDJ and ask them which one their art derives from. If you do look into more, I'd be curious to know what you find out and which line they claim.

Regards,

souran
16th October 2001, 22:06
Lots to research, lots to think about. I am curious about the lineage of the art, thank you, Nathan, for the starting points in the search. I will post anything concrete that I can find, but it will certainly take me a while.

I definately have a lot to learn about the histories and claimed histories of japanese martial arts, but that's one of the reasons that I joined e-budo.

To address Ubaldo Alcantara's statement about me on the one hand saying that I will "be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can", and in my next post saying that I am just starting to learn about the history of japanese martial arts is for me not two different positions.

I came across a few threads from people asking questions about Takeda ryu Nakamura ha, and save for one person in this thread who studied under Nakamura in Japan, the discussions in all cases have only involved people who know nothing directly about the art.

So while I am not in a position to provide concrete proof of lineage claims, I am in a position to ask my instructors questions on issues (for example why we use "do" and "jutsu" interchangeably).

I am also in a position relate my experiences in practicing the art, and addressed some of the statements in the thread on the basis of my experience. I wanted to shed some light onto what the school is about, at least what I and my fellow budoka perceive in it. It may be, though, that that was not really the point of the thread in the first place -- sorry if I missed that.


regards

Yamantaka
17th October 2001, 19:32
Originally posted by souran
To address Ubaldo Alcantara's statement about me on the one hand saying that I will "be happy to anwer any questions about the art that I can", and in my next post saying that I am just starting to learn about the history of japanese martial arts is for me not two different positions.
So while I am not in a position to provide concrete proof of lineage claims, I am in a position to ask my instructors questions on issues (for example why we use "do" and "jutsu" interchangeably).


Souran,

I'm sorry if you seem to be taking badly what I wrote (you said Nathan, but you refer to my full name...).
Anyway, you may not consider your posts as stressing "two different positions" but, believe me, they are. Up to now, you presented no "instructors' answers" to our questions, you've just manifested your curiosity. Perhaps if you ask Sigfried Kobiliza (the representative for Europe of Takeda Ryu) he'll be able to give satisfactory answers, since you are just able to practice and do not have much knowledge. If you can't, then I believe this thread is over...:smash:
Best

souran
18th October 2001, 10:34
I am a bit reluctant to continue posting because I myself obviously do not have the knowledge required to engage in this discussion. What that means is that I can relate what I am told, but don't have the knowledge or sources to verify these things. So that is the task that I am ultimately faced with -- but I have to take care of that myself.


Mr. Alcantara, I am sorry if any meaning was sent along with me using your full name and only using part of Mr. Scott's name, I suppose this may have been bad ettiquete on my part. I am not taking what you said badly, as I said in my last post, I began participating in this thread in the belief that my miniscule knowledge may be interesting or helpful. But ensuing exchange showed me that my approach was not at all appropriate for this forum.

As I stated above, I am a bit reluctant to continue posting, but on the other hand feel that I have to finish what I started to the best of my ability.

I did ask my instructors about two of the issues in this discussion.

The first was our use of "do" and "jutsu". Instead of regurgitating what they told me (and messing it up in the process), I will take the liberty of pointing you towards an article at koryu.com that I read after practice last night, in which Diane Skoss says more or less exactly the same thing my senseis told me, namely

http://koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

The tenth paragraph of this article sums up best what I was told. I don't want to infringe on any copyrights by copying it into here.

Second, on the issue of the lineage of our school. This is where I should have asked a read a lot more before I said anything -- sorry. But in the hopes that I am not perpetuating my mistake (because I am just regurgitating what I was told), here is the lineage of our school:

1. Takeda Yoshikiyo
2. Takeda Kiyomitsu
3. Takeda Nobuyoshi
4. Takeda Nobumitsu
5. Takeda Nobumasa
6. Takeda Nobunaga
7. Takeda Nobutoki
8. Takeda Masatsuna
9. Takeda Nobuie
10. Takeda Tokitsuna
11. Takeda Nobumune
12. Takeda Nobutake
13. Takeda Nobunari
14. Takeda Ujinobu
15. Takeda Nobuharu
16. Takeda Motonobu
17. Takeda Nobumitsu
18. Takeda Nobushige
19. Takeda Nobumori
20. Takeda Nobusuke
21. Takeda Mototsune
22. Takeda Nobumasa
23. Takeda Nobutsuna
24. Takeda Nobutora
25. Takeda Nobutomo
26. Takeda Katsuchiyo
27. Takeda Nobukatsu
28. Takeda Takanobu
29. Takeda Takayoshi
30. Takeda Kiyokata
31. Takeda Nobuaki
32. Takieda Mitsuharu
33. Takeda Nobutada
34. Takeda Kogetsuni
35. Takeda Mitsunobu
36. Takeda Takasumi
37. Takeda Ohara Masakatsu
38. Takeda Mitsumasa
39. Takeda Masaaki
40. Takeda Morinosuke
41. Takeda Tadakatsu
42. Nakamura Kichio
43. Oba Ichio
44. Nakamura Hisashi

If any of the participants in this thread are genuinely interested in inquiring into this lineage further, I am obviously not the right person to ask (and I apologize to all in the forum for starting this without having the proper information, even now, to answer the questions posed here).

I myself would humbly suggest contacting Mr. Kobilza directly, or perhaps even better Mr. Nakamura Hisashi himself. I firmly believe in any case that a serious inquiry into a lineage or school best include persons with direct experience in the art. A forum discussion on the Internet with persons who know nothing directly and with one person who only practices the art without knowledge of the history of the japanese martial arts will rarely lead to conclusive answers, I think.


And that sounds like my que to leave this discussion to those more qualified. :smilejapa

Yamantaka
18th October 2001, 11:34
Originally posted by souran
Mr. Alcantara, I am sorry if any meaning was sent along with me using your full name and only using part of Mr. Scott's name, I suppose this may have been bad ettiquete on my part. I am not taking what you said badly, as I said in my last post, I began participating in this thread in the belief that my miniscule knowledge may be interesting or helpful. But ensuing exchange showed me that my approach was not at all appropriate for this forum.


YAMANTAKA : Oh, it's all right! Mistakes do happen, specially in a "cool" medium like this one. Just misunderstandings...


Originally posted by souran
I did ask my instructors about two of the issues in this discussion.
The first was our use of "do" and "jutsu". I will take the liberty of pointing you towards an article at koryu.com that I read after practice last night, in which Diane Skoss says more or less exactly the same thing my senseis told me, namely
http://koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html
The tenth paragraph of this article sums up best what I was told.


YAMANTAKA : That question isn't really very important. People outside of Japan make quite a fuss about the DO/JUTSU thing. Japanese don't consider it very important and use both terms interchangeably, JUTSU more about technique and DO more about principles, more or less.


Originally posted by souran
Second, on the issue of the lineage of our school. This is where I should have asked a read a lot more before I said anything -- sorry. But in the hopes that I am not perpetuating my mistake (because I am just regurgitating what I was told), here is the lineage of our school:...............................................................
I myself would humbly suggest contacting Mr. Kobilza directly, or perhaps even better Mr. Nakamura Hisashi himself. I firmly believe in any case that a serious inquiry into a lineage or school best include persons with direct experience in the art.
And that sounds like my que to leave this discussion to those more qualified. :smilejapa

YAMANTAKA : Well, I've read a long article by Sigfried Kobiliza himself in a french magazine and it had serious mistakes and errors in its history and lineage part. Anyway, I guess you're right : only through direct questioning of those men we may get somewhere...though I sincerely doubt it. In my opinion, Nakamura Ha is really a modern art , with no real connections with Daito Ryu (by that I mean long term, lineage connections). If Hisashi Nakamura was saying "This is my art, developed by myself. Judge it in these terms", I would say nothing. Every art began that way. But when he intends to portray his art as "an ancient one, with noble traditions", giving no documentation on that, things began to get hazy and are easily subject to severe misunderstandings.
Anyway, thanks for your sincerity
Best:wave:

MarkF
18th October 2001, 11:41
For information purposes and for research, and for the next to zero who hasn't read the tenth paragraph of Ms. Skoss essay, here it is:

Naturally, neither view is true, and the dichotomy (with or without the values) is not so simple. While the do/jutsu contrast certainly describes aspects of different approaches to any given Japanese art, it simply is not used to neatly categorize and characterize the arts in Japan. Yagyu Nobuharu, headmaster of the venerable Yagyu Shinkage-ryu tradition of heiho, sometimes refers to his art as kendo, even though it is quite clearly classical kenjutsu and not at all related to modern kendo. The two most respected organizations in Japan devoted to the promotion of the remaining classical Japanese traditions (koryu bujutsu) are the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai, and the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai. No "jutsu" in either name, yet the membership is comprised virtually exclusively of classical warrior traditions, with names ending in -jutsu. And if one were to use the distinction that jutsu arts are practiced "for real" while the do arts are practiced for self-perfection, you'd find that, in Japan at least, only the police and the military are practicing jutsu. The rest of us, no matter what we might like to think, are actually practicing a "way," since we have no opportunity to face an armor-clad sword-wielding opponent in real life. And some "ways" (whether do or jutsu) include practical methods of "real" fighting.


Mark

Yamantaka
18th October 2001, 12:13
Dear friends,

Since the name of Mr. Roland Maroteaux, former representative of Takeda ryu, was mentioned in this thread, perhaps it will be interesting to read this note in which he proclaims his departure from Takeda Ryu :

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/8743/fr-procl.htm

[QUOTE] "After the last months’ conflicts provoked by a small austrian group and the Nihon Sobudo Rengokai, so severe they were taken to belgian and french courts, Mr. Maroteaux, in the presence of almost all Takeda Ryu groups in Europe, burned his expulsion act from that school, sent to him by Nakamura Soke, through mail.
With this gesture, he marked his decision to unsubmit to the pressures suffered by him these last months and to keep following his objectives, as he has done in the past. Every practitioner standing by his side, acknowledged that he is the only one with deep knowledge of Takeda Ryu in France and in Europe. That, without him, there wouldn’t be a school. That he was the highest-graded outside of Japan, since 1988, with the title of JODEN SHIHAN in 7 disciplines. That he has nothing else to learn in Takeda Ryu and that his knowledge was transmitted by masters and not by any other means. That, being the holder of 4 shihan titles, he has decided to assume all his work with its corresponding honors.
This warning is sent to all his instructors and students, as well as, to a great number of international experts, who saw him as a legitimate successor of a pure japanese tradition, envied by certains masters."
Best

Nathan Scott
18th October 2001, 19:24
Hello Ubaldo-san,

Interesting quote by Mr. Maroteaux. However, I wouldn't put too much weight into anything he says or implies - judging from the "interesting" information that he offers on his web page.

Mr. Souran, thanks for the additional information. The lineage you provided is unusually tidy for an art that claims such a long lineage. It is quite strange that the Kuroda family is not listed in their lineage. They should at least a few in there (instead of a few Takeda's) according to the history they provide on the web page.

One theory, judging from the lineage provided, is that the art perhaps started with Nakamura Kichio.

It wouldn't be the first time an art did not know the names of their tradition ancestors past the grandfather generation. Most know where the art was supposed to have come from, and sometimes try to fill in the blanks in the line using assumed logic.

I would also say that you may have better luck discussing this issue with Mr. Nakamura, since you are a student. He quite possibly does not feel inclined to answer such questions to outsiders he does not know, but would probably be happy to discuss the history of his art with one of his own students. One approach would be to assemble a group of interview type questions, translate them if necessary, and request that Mr. Nakamura answer them at his convenience. You could, in fact, publish them somewhere (besides here) if you wanted.

Good luck,

Yamantaka
19th October 2001, 01:10
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hello Ubaldo-san,
Interesting quote by Mr. Maroteaux. However, I wouldn't put too much weight into anything he says or implies - judging from the "interesting" information that he offers on his web page.


YAMANTAKA : That's it, just interesting...Sorry if I gave the impression I was giving much weight to Maroteaux. Quite the contrary, I extremely dislike him and the "misinformations" on his web page.
My only objective was, since his name was posted, to present the other side of the fence...:rolleyes:
Best

O'Neill
12th November 2002, 01:30
Here is another name that I came across from a number of sources in relation to daito ryu and koryu jujutsu. Anyone ever heard of Ichio Oba? Thanks.

Erin O'Neill

George Kohler
12th November 2002, 02:24
As far as I know, Oba Ichio did not study Daito ryu, but did claim soke of Takeda ryu aiki no jutsu. Although, there are some members here on E-budo might disagree about this school. Also, he did study Kukishin ryu bojutsu from Kiba Koshiro, a student of both Takamatsu Toshitsugu and Iwami Nangaku.

Oba Ichio's students were Sato Kinbei, Takeuchi Nobuyoshi, and Nakamura Hisashi. BTW, Sato Kinbei and Takeuchi Nobuyoshi were students of Takamatsu Toshitsugu and Ueno Takashi.

That's as far as I know about Oba Ichio.

Nathan Scott
26th December 2002, 23:19
For those curious about this art, their web page is located here:

http://plaza5.mbn.or.jp/~aiki/etakeda.html

Mr. Oba is listed as the 43rd [head]master! That's a long list of successors. ;)

Regards,

O'Neill
30th December 2002, 18:18
At least he had some impressive students. I also heard from another source that Oba sensei taught daito ryu but I can't seem to find it now. I will dig through my stuff. Oh yeah, Happy New Year everyone!

George Kohler
30th December 2002, 19:10
I don't know how correct this is, but in the 2nd page of this thread there is a picture of a German book that says that Oba studied Daito ryu from Matsuda.

BTW, one of Oba Ichio's students was a famous wrestler called Rikidozan.

O'Neill
30th December 2002, 22:09
It would be interesting to find out who some of the senior students of Yamamoto, Matsuda, and Yoshida were so that we can validate some claims that have been made and also to give credit to some legit but unknown teachers of Daito ryu.

There are many kyoju dairi students of Takeda sensei and little is known about them. They are their students may have foundsed other daito ryu branches that are legit but little known. The updated list by Mr. Pranin shows quite a few teachers of daito ryu, most that little is known about. Interesting- maybe this is where some of the other saigo groups come from (sogawa, kazuoki for example).

Jake McKee
3rd March 2003, 19:17
Is this group for real? I'd never heard of Takeda Ryu before...

Takeda Ryu in Romania (http://www.takeda.ro/ensenseimar.html)

From their site:

Takeda Ryu is original from MINAMOTO, the ancestors of Takeda family, a famous un illustre clan seigniorial. At the beginning of the 16th century the clan acknowledged a decline and dicided in two different schools: TAKEDA RYU and DAITO RYU.

Nowadays, TAKEDA RYU enjoys a coming back and a new popularity, thanks to the Master Roland J. MAROTEAUX, 8 Dan Dai Shihan, disciple ofSoke Hisashi NAKAMURA, the 44th heir of this martial arts school.

Best,

Neil Yamamoto
3rd March 2003, 21:01
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15229&highlight=takeda+ryu

Jake McKee
5th March 2003, 02:26
Thanks for the link Neil.

Jake McKee

rupert
4th August 2003, 06:31
This appears to be an old thread, and perhaps rather dead.

If anyone is interested, I trained in Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha in Japan under Nakamura himself. I attained shodan in the Aikido part of their system in 1990, and also did some of their Iaido. Although I mainly do Aikikai now (South Korea), some of their stuff still influences me as it was good. Will have to dig up a few old books ...

Rupert Atkinson

PS Was surprised to read about the European connections.
PPS Does anyone have a link for a Takeda Ryu Web Site in Japanese?

rupert
4th August 2003, 06:33
Just found it:

http://plaza5.mbn.or.jp/~aiki/top.html

Jason W
10th August 2003, 14:05
There's a group in Spain that seem to be descended from the Nakamura-ha http://www.terra.es/personal/sobukai/discipl.htm

I wonder where they got their shuriken techniques from? The photos shown at the bottom of the page depict a Yagyu Ryu blade (right), and I can't make out clearly the bo shuriken on the left, but it isn't Yagyu.





_____________________________
Jason Wotherspoon
Ipswich Aikido Club - Iwama Style

aplonis
14th August 2004, 00:58
Is there any biographical material available on grandmaster Kenshinsai Machida of Japan who teaches the sword art of battojutsu and also aiki arts? My researches care of GOOGLE show some of the Western ninjutsu masters (Toribo, VanDonk, Bessler, possibly others) cross-training in battojutsu with Kenshinsai Machida.

But written materials are still forthcoming while my own curiosity burns today. Sensei informs that Machida is very reserved and that internet seaches are likely be in vain. And so they have mostly been. Whoever has any biographical information on this particular master, particularly with regard to Takeda-ha Aiki-no-Jutsu, I would be glad to read of it.

Thanks,

Gan

Nathan Scott
15th August 2005, 22:43
Hello,

I don't know this individual, but google seems to put him as being involved with "Takeda-ryu Aiki no Jutsu" (aka: Takeda-ryu Aikido), so I merged your request with the existing thread on the subject. Hopefully someone will have more info for you here.

Regards,

upnorthkyosa
17th December 2005, 17:24
My teacher had the opportunity to train with Dr. Dale Schwerdtvecker (sp?) for an extended period of time and Dr. Schwerdtvecker has made a few appearences at our dojang in the past. I really liked his martial art and I'm looking for more information.

George Kohler
17th December 2005, 18:16
Schwerdtvecker (sp?)

Schwerdtfeger

upnorthkyosa
17th December 2005, 18:58
Schwerdtfeger

Thank you for the correction, sir. Have you met him?

George Kohler
17th December 2005, 20:34
No, it was the power of google when I typed in "Takeda ryu" and "dale" together. I see the school he teaches is Takeda-ryu Aiki no jutsu, but never heard his teacher's name Tsumura Keiji from Tokyo.

There was several teachers that learned Takeda-ryu from Oba Ichio, who claims was the 43rd soke of the school. The several that come to mind are:
Sato Kinbei
Nakamura Hisashi
Rikidozan - Wrestler

You can do a search on Takeda-ryu here on E-Budo to find more information.

upnorthkyosa
18th December 2005, 03:03
Thank you, sir...

upnorthkyosa

Raff
17th February 2006, 12:37
The threas is a little bit old but I would like to add a few comments:

Maroteaux Roland Belgian by birth but now living in France students of among other arts Judo and Hakko-Ryu was the first one to bring Takeda-Ryu to Europe because receiving Hamon from Nakamura. Prior to his expulsain, it seems that Maroteaux received the name Minamoto no Maroto, since his expulsion from the school, he now calls his "Art" Takeda-Ryu Maroto-Ha I assume to give a japanese flavor to his synthesis.

I personnaly know some of his former students (not affiliated with him anymore) and all told me that the guy in his youth was a genuine teatcher, but that he slightly became quite odd not to say crazy.

There has been a never ending thread on a french forum about Takeda-Ryu with many testimonies of formers students and some of the accusations were very serious, some going as far as talking about Sect and bad business.

I do not know if this is true but this school has published many agressive articles in various european magazines claiming to be the only Japanese school of value and claiming that Aikido existed long before Morihei Ueshiba.

Nathan Scott
17th February 2006, 13:08
Mr. Deutsch,

It is critical that you sign every post with your full, real name, lest you be punished severely.

Regards,

Raff
17th February 2006, 13:37
I'm sorry I thought that I had a signature.

anas0916
29th January 2009, 16:45
hi there
i just waned to know if you have any information about the takeda ryu school, which a very old school of bujutsu.
i know there is takeda ryu nakamura ha, whose headmaster is hisashi nakamura, but after a bit of reaserch i found he never had a menkyo kaiden and never was officially designated as heir or soke to this school. and there is takeda ryu maroto ha, whose leader is Jean roland maroteaux, but he's full of controversies.
anyone can help me get more infos?
thanks in advance

Katsujinken
29th January 2009, 22:44
I am not sure that there is another school these days known as Takeda Ryu outside of the Nakamura ha and Maroto ha lines, which as you have stated have various issues about them. Some claim that Takeda Ryu is the style of Sokaku Takeda who is often credited with creating Daito Ryu out of the Takeda family arts, others claim it is a much older and that is the origin of much Aiki Jutsu and stems from the Minamoto clan that in later centuries changed their name to Takeda. If you search the archives here you will find a number of posts discussing Takeda Ryu, Daito Ryu, Minamoto Clan and Sokaku Takeda.

But do also see this link: http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Takeda_Ryu which leads to a current website for a Takeda Ryu
at http://www.yabusame.or.jp/ which is a school of equestrian archery. Here is the English version of the same site: http://www.yabusame.or.jp/english/top.html

Regards

TimothyKleinert
30th January 2009, 15:04
I'm pretty sure Takeda-ryu has been discussed on this forum before, if you try a search you'll probably find a bunch of info.

George Kohler
30th January 2009, 15:23
The name "Takeda-ryu" (the Aiki no jutsu version) seems to have been a created by Oba Ichio from multiple sources.

One source seems to been a martial art taught by Takeda family in Kuroda-han. This family martial art was later taught to Nakamura Aikisai Okichi (Born as Nakamura Yoshitoshi) by Takeda Tadakatsu Odo. Nakamura Aikisai was a member of the Genyosha (Dark/Black Ocean Society) and taught martial arts only to this ultra-nationalist right-wing group. Some that were taught by Aikisai are:
Oba Ichio
Oba Mino (Older brother of Ichio)
Miyagawa Ikkan
Uchida Ryohei (founder of Kokuryukai and Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu member)
Nakano Seigo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakano_Seigo)
Ogata Taketora (former Vice-Prime Minister of Yoshida Shigeru ministry)
Kuzu Yoshihisa

Later, after the war, Oba Ichio opened his dojo to the public and called this school Takeda-ryu. The other ryuha that were added to make this school are Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu (including the other associated ryuha) and Kukishin-ryu. Some of Oba Ichio's students were:
Takakura Ken (Oda Goichi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Takakura)
Rikidozan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikid%C5%8Dzan)
Oba Mino (older brother of Ichio)
Oba Takeyuki (son of Ichio)
Morimoto Kazuo
Sato Kinbei
Azuma Chiyosuke
Nakamura Hisashi (founded Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha)

Nathan Scott
2nd February 2009, 21:27
Hi all,

I've merged this last question posted with this thread, which already addresses the subject. Please read through my post on the second page of this thread for more information on "Takeda-ryu" schools.

Also, it is worth mentioning Takeda-ryu Kyubajutsu also shares lineage with Ogasawara-ryu and the claims of Daito-ryu. This Takeda-ryu uses the same Takeda-bishi mon as Takeda Sokaku:

Takeda-ryu Kyubajutsu
http://www.yabusame.jp/english/program1.html

Ogasawara-ryu can also be considered a "Seiwa-Genji" art, even though the name is different.

Regards,

muden
18th May 2009, 13:41
I was looking at the Koryu.com website and came across the following list of current members of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai.

http://www.koryu.com/library/gbuyens4.html

Number 78 lists Takeda Ryu Aiki no Jutsu!

Now, by all accounts, membership of this organization has strict rules of entry.

How has the Takeda Ryu group gained admission? They surely have some pretty complete documentation.

Does anybody have any information on this?

Oisin Bourke

Ron Beaubien
18th May 2009, 14:56
I was looking at the Koryu.com website and came across the following list of current members of the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai.

http://www.koryu.com/library/gbuyens4.html

Number 78 lists Takeda Ryu Aiki no Jutsu!

Now, by all accounts, membership of this organization has strict rules of entry.

How has the Takeda Ryu group gained admission? They surely have some pretty complete documentation.

Does anybody have any information on this?

The group in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is under the direction of a Mr. Ikeda from Fukuoka Prefecture.

They have no connection to "Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha Aiki no Jutsu" to my knowledge.

More information can be found in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai's 30th Anniversary book.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

muden
18th May 2009, 16:02
Thanks Ron,

I'll ask around and look into the anniversary book.

In the meantime, is it possible for you to provide a brief summary of the lineage of the Ryu?

I find it fascinating that there is another "Aiki" school of jujutsu still extant. I think the existence of such a ryu would also have an impact on the current views about Daito Ryu.

(In light of the preceding reply, this probably should become a new thread?)

Regards,

Oisin Bourke

Ron Beaubien
19th May 2009, 03:08
In the meantime, is it possible for you to provide a brief summary of the lineage of the Ryu?

Sorry, but I'm working 12-hour days at the moment. I don't really have the time to struggle with the Chinese characters for names of people I am not familiar with. I really wouldn't have a clue how to pronounce or write their names in English unless I had the opportunity to talk to a practitioner of the school.

Regards,

Ron Beaubien

muden
19th May 2009, 03:33
Fair enough,

I'll look into it further when possible.

Regards,

Oisin Bourke

George Kohler
19th May 2009, 04:52
The group in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai is under the direction of a Mr. Ikeda from Fukuoka Prefecture.


Mr. Ikeda as in 池田一晶 ?

Nathan Scott
20th May 2009, 05:49
Hi all,

It looks like the Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu group is turning out to laying claim to a branch of Takeda-ryu listed in the BRDJ (last listing on page 534 and continuing on page 535 in the 1978 edition). A partial translation of this is listed about mid-way down my post on page two of this thread. Also see George Kohler's post #57 on this page for further.

The lineage in the books shows Nakamura Aikisai Okichi transmitting the art to 10 of his students. One is Oba Mino (or Minoru), and another is Oba Ichio. Only Oba Ichio shows an additional transmission line under his name, which credits Oba Mino (or Minoru; Ichio's brother) and Oba Takeyuki (Ichio's son).

At least we now know which branch the Nakamura-ha is claiming a relationship to. Based on the lineage chart in the BRDJ, it looks like Oba Ichio (1899-1959) is listed as one of ten in the 38th generation of succession, although Takeda-ryu sources list him as the 43rd Soke (ca. 1935).

According to one Takeda-ryu web page (http://www.istb.info/index.php/the-birth-of-takeda-ryu-nakamura-ha.html), Oba Ichio died without naming a successor. This web page states that Nakamura Hisashi trained with Oba from 1950 (18 years old) to about 1953. Ca. 1953 Oba moved away, and Nakamura re-joined him again to train from 1956 until Oba's death in 1959 at 60 years old.

This adds up to Nakamura training for a total of about 6 years (from about 18 yrs old to about 23 years old) under Oba during the last decade of his life, after which, Nakamura founded his own branch of the art under his own authority.

The website goes on to say:


"In spite of his success teaching Takeda Budo, Nakamura was never officially acknowledged as the school’s heir by the Oba family. Others also laid claim to the school’s leadership, including Sato Kinbei who died in 1999 and in fact had been a member of Oba’s dojo long before Nakamura, but none of them could ever present an adequate document from the Oba family. As a result, the transmission of Takeda Ryu in a direct line ended with Oba Ichio in 1959. With this matter remaining unsettled, Nakamura eventually named his school Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha (Nakamura branch of the Takeda style) in 1978."

It looks like the most complete source online for this art is on the English language Wikipedia listing. It begins by stating that "Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha is a gendai (modern) martial art developed by Nakamura Hisashi in the mid to late 20th century":

Takeda Ryu Nakamura Ha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeda_Ryu_Nakamura_Ha)

One difference with the Wikipedia listing and the other webpage I listed above is that that Wikipedia listing claims Oba Sensei "died and appointed Moritomo Kazuo Sensei as successor", but that "Moritomo declined the position and appointed Nakamura Hisashi as the next Soke". Later in tihis same page it claims that "In 1990, Morimoto Kazuo sensei died, leaving Soke Nakamura as the last teacher of Koryu do Takeda Ryu Bujutsu". I wonder which one it correct?

Anyway, regardless of whether you believe a line of Takeda family aiki no jutsu methods was passed down through an alternate branch of the Takeda line, and that these teachings made it to Oba Ichio, it still doesn't sound like much of these teachings - if any - could have realistically made it past Oba to the current generation. The fact that this art is listed in the BRDJ is significant, but not proof in and of itself of legitimate transmission or claims (for any of the arts listed).

Takeda Tadakatsu (Nakamura Aikisai's teacher) supposedly is descended / branched away from Takeda Shingen's father (1493–1574). Takeda Tadakatsu is credited with inheriting the art in the beginning of the 20th century (ca. 1911). Upon his death, Nakamura Aikisai is claimed to have "received" the Takeda family aiki-no-jutsu scroll (?!?) There is then unsupported claims that Oba Ichio received a menkyo kaiden in these Takeda-ryu teachings, as well as in several other arts. Nakamura Hisashi in turn only studied for about 6 years as a young man, and I've yet to come across a source that states what level of initiation he is said to have obtained. Regardless, all sources indicate that Nakamura Hisashi then modernized the art he leaned to stay in keeping with the times.

I'm not sure how many other lines of "Takeda-ryu Aiki-no-jutsu" are being claimed in Japan, but this lineage I'm referencing from the BRDJ is the only one in it that makes claim to teaching aiki.

For further information about Nakamura-ha, their Takeda-ryu Japanese language webpage is now located here (all other links posted earlier in the thread appear to be dead now):
http://www.takedaryu.jp/

There is a Japanese Wikipedia entry on Nakamura-ha Takeda-ryu here:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%AD%A6%E7%94%B0%E6%B5%81%E4%B8%AD%E6%9D%91%E6%B4%BE%E5%90%88%E6%B0%97%E9%81%93

And an Japanese Wikipedia entry on Oba Ichio here:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E5%A4%A7%E5%BA%AD%E4%B8%80%E7%BF%81&action=edit&redlink=1

HTH,

carnops
10th January 2010, 13:31
Hello,
I am very pleased to read your interesting posts.
As a member of this school, I hope I'll be able to bring some clarifications (depending of the depth of the questions.



Nakamura Hisashi in turn only studied for about 6 years as a young man, and I've yet to come across a source that states what level of initiation he is said to have obtained.


As far as I know (sources are divergent), Nakamura Hisashi held Chuden Menkyo (some say Joden Menkyo) from Oba Ichio.

The reason why he registered the Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha and named his system Sobudo was to avoid the disappearance of the arts he learned in the Takeda-ryu, as no heir was officially appointed.

After the death of Oba Soke, there were two alive Kaiden Menkyo : Sato Kinbei and Kazuo Morimoto.

It seems that Kazuo Sensei, as the elder disciple of Oba Soke, was the highest ranked teacher of the school, but he refused to assume the continuity of the teaching.

Sato Sensei eventually received the densho but he refused to continue the school.

When Nakamura Hisashi decided to continue the teaching, both of them agreed to his proposition but didn't want to get involved in the development of the school. It seems that Sato Sensei had an oral agreement with Nakamura Hisashi stating he would receive the densho after his death.

When Sato Sensei passed away, there were a disagreement between Sato Sensei's succession and Nakamura Hisashi concerning the conditions for the densho's transmission.

I cannot actually confirm that this situation will change and I will post something here if there's any change in the future.

Concerning the Wikipedia article, it was posted by a study group leader but should be considered as a draft to be completed and sourced, but it is actually the more neutral in content.

Nevertheless, thanks to Nathan Scott for his objective research.

In my opinion, the most documented lineage can be found here :
http://www.takedaryu.com/index.php/aiki-lineage-chart.html

Nathan Scott
11th January 2010, 02:26
Hello Stephane,

Thanks for your post.

Here is another link worth looking at from the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai:

http://www.nihonkobudokyoukai.org/martialarts/078/

Regards,

carnops
11th January 2010, 13:08
Hello Nathan,

I had some difficulties to read your link, as I don't read japanese enough to understand, but I had an overview with a translation tool (not really efficient but I was able to understand).

I heard once about the person mentionned on the NKK but I've no information about him, except what is told on the NKK website and a brief evocation in a conversation with a shihan who went often to Japan during the last year.

I forgot to mention one important point ; if the succession of Nakamura Hisashi is a matter of controversy for many people, not to say that the lines that follow in the chart linked in my previous post is even more controversial.

I heard about a lineage in the japanese governmental archives too, but I didn't see it by myself so I can't develop.

I hope to be able to talk a little about history with Soke (Nakamura) when he'll come.

Best regards,

Nathan Scott
11th January 2010, 19:57
The person mentioned in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai link is Ikeda Kazuaki ( 池田一晶 ), who is based out of Fukuoka, Kyushu. Not sure about the translation of the first name though.

carnops
2nd August 2011, 10:58
Hello,

I have found new informations about our lineage.

http://www.takedabudo.com/genealogie/

This is a translation of the BRDJ 1979 edition done by a Japanese.

Regards,

George Kohler
31st August 2011, 20:02
The person mentioned in the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai link is Ikeda Kazuaki ( 池田一晶 ), who is based out of Fukuoka, Kyushu. Not sure about the translation of the first name though.

Looks like the next in line for this school is Hikage (日影渉 - Sorry don't know the pronunciation of the given name).

Nathan Scott
21st August 2012, 06:46
I ended up doing a little research on some of this stuff recently, sort of by accident. Following is a more complete history of Takeda-ryu, copied from the link a couple of posts back, which may or may not be translated from the corresponding entry in the Bugei Ryuha Daijten (I haven't checked it yet):

http://www.takedabudo.com/genealogie/


The art of AIKI of the TAKEDA School is first documented in the 12th century as "TAKEDA RYU AIKI NO JUTSU", but its origins go much further back in history. SOKE NAKAMURA, current head of the school TAKEDA RYU NAKAMURA HA, quoted the following passage from the records on the TAKEDA School:

In the 27th year of the reign of the twelfth TENNO (emperor) by the name of KEIKO (KEIGYO), the KUMASO tribe rebelled. As a result, the heir to the throne, YAMATO TAKERU NO MIKOTO, was sent on an expedition to punish the KUMASO. On his way, he performed a cleansing ceremony at KAMIYO waterfall. He placed his feet on the rocky floor of the waterfall, spread his arms wide, was filled with the power of the spirit and gathered the entire strength of his body in his fingertips. Turning towards heaven, he executed several upward blows, then let his hands drop and struck out powerfully several times with his arms. After the prince had completed these movements, he decided to attack the KUMASO. Disguised as a woman, he crept into the enemy’s camp and there roused the sleeping leader of the KUMASO. When the leader tried to attack him, the prince opened his arms, was filled with spiritual strength and threw the KUMASO leader to the ground, having already snatched his sword from him. This technique of spreading one’s arms and throwing down one’s opponent was the beginning of AIKI.

Thereafter, the prince studied diligently and passed on his skills to TAKEDA NO KIMI NO MIKOTO for the protection of the palace.

Passed on by the sixth son of emperor SEIWA, called SADAZUMI, this knowledge was transferred by his son TSUNEMOTO in turn to the father of the famous general MINAMOTO NO YOSHIMITSU (from the GENJI = MINAMOTO family) and finally to YOSHIMITSU himself, who is considered the father of AIKI. Tradition has it that in Emperor SEIWA’s day and even more so during the reign of his son SADAZUMI, with their bare hands warriors executed blows like sword strikes on parts of the body either unprotected or poorly protected by armour. To this day, such techniques are a characteristic part of AIKIDO in the TAKEDA style, for example in the form of the AIKI-UCHI (AIKI form of strikes).

Under General YOSHIMITSU from the powerful MINAMOTO family who founded the KAMAKURA shogunate, the traditional techniques of AIKI were further improved and developed into a system for the first time.

His son YOSHIKYO added techniques that could be used against assailants bearing both long and short swords. For practice, he had his warriors fight unarmed against well-trained sword fighters as well as against men armed with NAGINATA (halberds) and other weapons of different lengths. Through this practice, they learned to observe carefully but quickly, they also perfected their coordination between eye and movements, as well as the ability to gauge distances accurately and to move quickly aside, a method that was customary in some cases under TSUNEMOTO.

YOSHIKYO was ordered to move to the province of KAI (now YAMANASHI) to protect it. He settled there, changed his name to TAKEDA, founding the branch of the family called "KAI-GENJI-TAKEDA". From then on, the family’s fighting skills became known as "TAKEDA RYU AIKI NO JUTSU" (the art of AIKI of the TAKEDA family).

The 16th century

Saw the heyday and the end of the supremacy of the TAKEDA family, whose most famous prince was TAKEDA SHINGEN. At that time a second branch of the Takeda family began, which like the original branch (GENRYU) also exists to this day.

NOBUTORA was the head of the TAKEDA family in the first half of the 16th century. In about 1570, the records of the TAKEDA School were given not to his first son SHINGEN, but to his ninth son NOBUTOMO, who in turn passed them on to his son KATSUCHIYO. KATSUCHIYO moved to the KURODA tribe in ECHIZEN (now FUKUOKA) where he secretly trained his descendants in the art of AIKI. By doing so he helped preserve the existence of the main branch (GENRYU) of the TAKEDA School to this day.

Development of the collateral branch
(Daito-ryu)

TAKEDA SHINGEN became one of the most famous men in the history of Japan because of his victories in the civil war. However, he was of minor importance to the survival of the TAKEDA School.

SHINGEN died in 1573 in the civil war. His death marked the end of the power of the TAKEDA family. A year later one of SHINGEN’s brothers, TAKEDA KUNITSUGU, went to the principality of AIZU to serve the tribe by the same name. Through him, aspects of the art of AIKI were passed on to the AIZU clan. Due to the losses suffered by the TAKEDA family, KUNITSUGU decided to change his name to DAITO. This new branch of the family was therefore called the DAITO branch (DAITO-RYU).

The DAITO School, founded in the 16th century, still exists today, as does the main school, which has been called the TAKEDA School since the 12th century. This passing on of the tradition, writes SOKE NAKAMURA in his book on AIKIDO, is also described in the "NIHON BUDO JITEN" (reference work on schools and martial arts).

The 19th century

After the ravages of the civil war in the 16th century, which affected the development of the school, the TAKEDA School remained hidden in the shadows of history for more than 300 years. When a historically decisive shift occurred during the MEJI restoration and the government forbade the carrying of swords in 1876, the TAKEDA School revived. Its teachings came to light again when in era of the 41st generation of the TAKEDA family (the era of TAKEDA TADAKATSU) a few young men formed a group called "GENYOSHA" (Association of the Black Ocean) for political reasons and started doing AIKIDO exercises. In the 42nd generation, the school was transferred to the NAKAMURA YOSHITOSHI family and in the 43rd generation to the OBA ICHIO family.

The 20th century

In the 20th century an outstanding individual, SOKE HISASHI NAKAMURA, influenced the TAKEDA School.

He was born in SHINSHU in 1932 and moved to live with his aunt in northern KYUSHU in 1949. He had found out that a DOJO (school) for TAKEDA martial arts existed on YAGURA Mountain. It was the school run by SOKE OBA ICHIO, headmaster of the 43rd generation. In spring 1950 NAKAMURA, with two recommendations, became a student of master OBA. SOKE OBA ICHIO always ensured that the school’s teachings were passed on only to a small group. After three years (in 1953) NAKAMURA became an UCHI-DESHI ("in-house student"), living with SOKE OBA ICHIO. Soon after that, ICHIO moved to Tokyo, where he founded the SEIBUDEN DOJO as the new headquarters of the TAKEDA School and the NIPPON BUDO RENREN, an association for the revival of the BUDO.

The young NAKAMURA was not called to Tokyo until 1957. Master MORIMOTO, ICHIO’s deputy, had to move back to the country due to family obligations, and so NAKAMURA assumed his position as deputy, which had been his greatest wish.

OBA died in 1959 without naming a successor. The SEIBUDEN DOJO had to be closed, but in 1960 NAKAMURA, who now lived only for the BUDO, started to build his own organization to keep alive the great, old tradition of TAKEDA RYU.

When he became head of the school, the decision on passing on its teachings were solely in the hands of the new SOKE NAKAMURA. He realized that the school could only survive if a larger group of people had access to the school’s teachings. As a result, he decided to teach the TAKEDA School on a widespread basis.

Thus began ten very difficult but latterly fruitful years, in which individual schools and associations (including those at universities) and organizations like the independent "BUDOKAI" were established. In 1970 it was renamed the "Japan Complete Martial Arts Association", "NIHON SOBUDO RENGOKAI" (NSR), with its headquarters HONBU SOBUKAN in Tokyo.

In 1978 SOKE NAKAMURA officially registered the school as TAKEDA RYU NAKAMURA HA. His name accordingly became inextricably linked to the school.

Today his organization includes numerous schools, clubs and youth and student organizations. While in the Seventies his work focused on reviving the school and spreading its teachings in Japan, the Eighties saw internationalization and the establishment of schools outside Japan. As the preserver and reviver of the TAKEDA school, with his lifework SOKE NAKAMURA already has a place in the history of BUDO, the traditions of which are part of Japan’s cultural legacy.

The part I was stumbling over recently involved the first two paragraphs, which clearly makes reference to a mythical / historical episode that is recorded in both the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki (oldest historical records of Japan). However, the details as it pertains to "aiki" are quite different (I found and reviewed the episode in both books). Following is a translation of this same episode from the Kojiki:


CHAPTER 79

PRINCE WO-USU [Yamato Takeru no Mikoto] KILLS HIS ELDER BROTHER AND IS SENT BY EMPEROR KEIKO TO CONQUER THE TWO BROTHERS KUMASO-TAKERU.

The emperor said to Wo-Usu-no-mikoto : "Why does your elder brother not come to the morning and evening meals? Take it upon yourself to teach and admonish him." After this had been said, five days passed, but he still did not come. The emperor then asked Wo-Usu-no-mikoto: "Why has your elder brother not come for such a long time? Is it perhaps that you have not yet admonished him?" He replied : "I have already entreated him." Then he said: "In what manner did you entreat him?" He replied: ''Early in the morning when he went into the privy, I waited and captured him, grasped him and crushed him, then pulled off his limbs, and wrapping them in a straw mat, threw them away." At this, the emperor was terrified at the fearless, wild disposition of this prince and said :

"Toward the west, there are two mighty men called Kumaso-takeru. They are unsubmissive, disrespectful people. Therefore go and kill them." [Thus saying], he dispatched him. At this time, he was still a youth wearing his hair up on his forehead. Then Wo-usu-no-mikoto received from his aunt Yamato-hime-no-mikoto an upper garment and a skirt and, with a small sword in his bosom, set out.

CHAPTER 80

WO-USU-NO-MIKOTO, DISGUISED AS A WOMAN, VANQUISHES THE BROTHERS KUMASO-TAKERU. HE IS GIVEN THE TITLE YAMATO-TAKERU.

When he arrived at the house of the Kumaso-takeru, he found that the house was surrounded by three rows of warriors, and that they were building a pit dwelling and were inside it. At the time there was a great deal of noise about the coming feast [celebrating] the new pit dwelling, and food was being prepared. Walking around the vicinity, he waited for the day of the feast.

When the day of the feast arrived, he combed his hair down in the manner of a young girl's and put on the upper garment and the skirt of his aunt. Thus, completely taking on a young girl's appearance, he mingled with the women and went into the pit dwelling. Then the two Kumaso-takeru, the elder and the younger, looked with admiration at this maiden and had her sit between them as the festivities continued. Then, when [the feast] was at its height, [Wo-usu-no-mikoto] took his sword from his bosom and, seizing the Kumaso's collar, stabbed him clear through the chest. Then the younger Takeru , seeing this, was afraid and ran out. Pursuing him to the foot of the stairs leading out of the pit dwelling, he seized him by the back, took the sword, and stabbed him clear through from the rear. Then Kumaso-takeru said : "Do not move the sword. I have something to say."

Then holding him down, he allowed it for a while. Then [Kumaso] said : "Who are you, my lord?" Whereupon [Yamato] said : "I am the son of Emperor Opo-tarasi-osiro-no-mikoto, who dwells in the palace of Pisiro and rules Opo-ya-shima-guni; and my name is Yamato-woguna-no-miko. Hearing that you Kumaso-takeru Were unsubmissive and disrespectful, he dispatched me to kill you." Then Kumaso-takeru said: "Indeed this must be true. For in the west there are no brave, mighty men besides us. But in the land of Opo-yamato there is a man exceeding the two of us in bravery! Because of this I will present you with a name. May you be known from now on as Yamato-takeru-no-miko!"

After he had finished saying this, [Wo-usu-no-mikoto] killed him, slicing him up like a ripe melon. From that time, he was called Yamato-takeru-no-mikoto to praise his name. Then as he returned, he subdued and pacified all of the mountain deities, river deities, and deities of the sea-straits.

This episode is recorded in the Kojiki in Chapters 79 & 80 (and in the Nihon Shoki, Book VII Chapters 18 & 19).

Emperor Keiko was the 12th Emperor, who reigned from the years of 71-130. The Nihon Shoki and Kojiki briefly mention the birth of someone named "Takeda no Miko" (Prince of Takeda), a son of Emperor Bidatsu (30th Emperor, reigned 572-585), but neither mention anyone named “Takeda no Kimi no Mikoto”, nor could I find a connection between either of them and Yamato Takeru no Mikoto (who lived several hundred years before them).

The term “aiki” does not appear in the Kojiki or the Nihon Shoki. But more importantly, neither does the reference to Yamato visiting the Kamiyo waterfall, spreading his arms and being filled with the power of spirit, or throwing the Kumaso down and taking his sword away. What is mentioned is crushing his enemies, pulling their arms off, and cutting them up like ripe melons. In fact, Yamato was revered for his extreme level of aggression and violence of action. In other words, I don't see anything in this story or the history of Yamato Takeru no Mikoto in the Kojiki or Nihon Shoki that gives any indication of "ki" cultivation or "aiki".

So, what is the original source of the Takeda-ryu version of a story that took place during the period of ca. 97? The Kojiki was written ca. 712, and the Nihon Shoki ca. 720. The episode in the Nihon Shoki is consistent with that in the Kojiki, though the Nihon Shoki gives a bit more details.

Furthermore, I can't find an independent reference to anyone named "Takeda no Kimi no Mikoto" at all. And where is "Takeda-ryu Aiki no Jutsu" documented from in the 12th Century? What document? I presume this is a reference to the generation of Shinra Saburo (Minamoto Yoshimitsu). I picked up Japanese history books for the Biwa area where he and his brother were based out of, and there is just not much recorded about his life in them (his brother Minamoto Yoshiie was much more famous).


Nakamura Aikisai was a member of the Genyosha (Dark/Black Ocean Society) and taught martial arts only to this ultra-nationalist right-wing group.

BTW, Yoshida Kotaro from Daito-ryu was also a member of this group. Perhaps in reality Nakamura was exposed to some amount of Daito-ryu from Yoshida, or at least the idea of Takeda-ryu, from this connection?

Regards,

Nathan Scott
21st August 2012, 08:04
The BRDJ listing referenced from the Takeda-ryu webpage actually contains a much shorter history than what is contained in the "records of the Takeda-ryu" as quoted by Nakamura Hisashi of Takeda-ryu Nakamura-ha.

A quick translation / summary of the BRDJ listing is as follows:


Takeda-ryu (aiki, jujutsu, tsue, tessen) - Shinra Saburo is considered the founder. Takeda Nobutoki and Takeda Nobumune are also listed in the transmission (see "keizu" thread).

Takeda Yoshikiyo became the first generation of Kai-Genji Takeda upon moving to Kai province (now Yamanashi). The 24th Generation was Takeda Nobutora (father of 1st son Takeda Shingen), who taught his 9th son Takeda Nobutomo (25th Generation) and his grandson (Nobutomo's 1st son) Takeda Katsuchiyo (26th Generation). Later, Nobutora was exiled from the Takeda family by his son Takeda Shingen, at which time he moved to Suruga. Katsuchiyo moved to Kyushu and stayed with the Kuroda clan. There he passed down the art in Kyushu.

The last headmaster listed was Nakamura Aikisai Okichi, who was succeeded by (10) students. The 43rd Generation was Oba Ichio (real name was Oba Takeyuki; one of Nakamura Aikisai's 10 students listed), who also held menkyo in Hoen-ryu jujutsu, Kukishin-ryu sogo bujutsu, and Shinto-ryu iaido. He was succeeded by his son Oba Takeyuki, and his brother Oba Minoru.

There is no mention of the ancient mythical history, etc.

HTH,

Kendoguy9
21st August 2012, 18:17
Interesting work Nathan. Maybe i'm misreading but it sounds like the Takeda-ryu is the product of the 8th century according to this history. I was under the impression the name Takeda wasn't taken up by a member of the Minamoto until the 11th century with Yoshikiyo (as the history states). However it seems weird that the 2nd person to study aiki was a Takeda no Kimi no Mikoto. I feel like this is a little revisionist history trying to strengthen what is really a very weak historical positon.

I wish some of these groups could produce documentation besides lineage charts. Genealogy is seldom a very useful science when studying history and it is often used to tie people to events that had little or no influence on their lives (even if they wanted them to). Even Takeda Sokaku did this. In absence of any documentation you throw out a family tree to tie what you do to the past.

In my own case I have ancestors that came from Holland to the US in the late 18th cent. and they were some sort of businessmen (not exactly sure what they did). I feel if I were to create some sort of business and attempted to tie my business to those Dutchmen, claiming it was est. in 1795, same product, same family ownership, etc. I would be considered a fraud today inspite of the quality of my product. Even if i were able to find history books that mentioned those same people it would not legitimize my actions any more.

BTW, Nathan been really busy at work, I'll try to get a hold of you soon.

best regards,

Nathan Scott
22nd August 2012, 05:08
Hey Chris,

Nice to hear from you. I was starting to get worried. ;)

Yeah, I have to admit that the whole Takeda-ryu Aiki no Jutsu background just keeps getting more suspicious.

The funny thing, that I keep saying about the Daito-ryu background, is that while none of it can be "proven" to be true, at the same time nothing in the factual history of Japan has come up to discredit any of it either. In fact, the more I dig, the more I find evidence that supports the *possibility* of the Daito-ryu historical claims. That is a good sign.

On the other hand, you've got arts like Takeda-ryu, Saigo-ha, and Hapkido that have unsupported histories that research has proven to be in error due to conflicts with known facts. Conflicts with known facts is a pretty strong indicator of fabrication.

As a disclaimer, the subject of background and legitimacy we are discussing currently does not mean that any of the aforementioned arts couldn't have valuable things to offer, or that the exponents are not skilled martial artists.

Regards,