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View Full Version : where do we draw the line, when do we stop calling it a martial art?



ChrisHein
12th November 2002, 09:21
I was just wondering when we should stop calling a practice a martial art? I mean there are lots of great things out there being called martial arts, that are excellent therapy, and are fun social clubs, and nice ways to get out of the house and have a hobby, but there study, doesn’t make you martially any more effective then a hockey player, or a gymnast! I mean as long as it is remotely physical, and has past teachers that could beat people up, dose that qualify it as a Martial art. If we wave foreign flags and ware funny clothes do we call it martial arts. If some one is a master of a martial art system and they can't fight there way out of a wet paper bag, why is it martial, and if it's only a sporting event, where is the art of it? What is a martial art really, how do we recognize it?

MarkF
12th November 2002, 20:05
...doesn’t make you martially any more effective then a hockey player...


Yes, you're right, and why not? A seasoned hockey player or rugby enthusiast is as martial as anyone. I'd take the walk down the dark alley with either of them.

Today, the description is generic. You can use the Japanese for it if that makes it easier, and I've received that look in the ER when I've been injured "OOOH, martial arts, ugh!" Flower arranging is competitive and dan-i grades are awarded. Same with the tea ceremony.

I don't have a problem with combative sports being called martial arts. That said, I'm judoka, but then boxing and wrestling are both combative sports. So is aikido, with the exception of the shodokan school of aikido, they don't compete but they are sporting activities.

I know a guy who is seventy years old, is a 10-dan in his style of striking arts, and a 9-dan in Kodokan Judo and is dan graded in weapons, and he still calls it a hobby. He is also all for full contact, be it in the street when you have to, and in a ring or tatami. He promotes his own students in full contact and they win. One of his judo students was a two time Olympic Judo Champion and three time world judo champion. Another is a Sambo champ. Any of these guys is probably the one who you hope isn't in that alley when you are also in it. Yes, they are sports. So what?

So call it what you wish, and don't worry about it. Yes, we wear funny clothes, and Barry Bonds and Magic Johnson have Ki. We make funny movements and wear pajamas.


Welcome to E-budo, Chris!

Mark

ChrisHein
12th November 2002, 22:19
Yes mark and the world is the world, that’s not my point. I am not saying that getting ranks or wareing funny cloths is bad, all I am asking is why do we continue to call things like (Americanized) Tai chi, and aikido martial arts, when the teachers of these arts aren’t and never were martially effective. I'm not saying that it's bad to go take and aikido class, if you need some therapy, or a way to get off the coach, I am simply saying, When do we stop calling these things martial arts, theses noting martial about them!

hyaku
12th November 2002, 23:35
I think basicaly Martial Arts is a poor translation anyway. Mainly because sometimes its difficult to find appropriate words in English.

It's because of the words that everything get all lumped in together.

Hyakutake Colin

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

Mike Williams
13th November 2002, 10:50
When you think about it, a huge portion of Olympic events are martial in origin.

Many MAists seem to denigrate the "sporting" side of budo, but when all is said and done, the vast majority of us will approach our training in much the same way as enthusiastic sunday league footballers. It's an athletic pastime.

However you cut it, unless you're emplyed in a profession that regularly needs close quarter combative skills, it's a hobby.

Cheers,

Mike

Rogier
13th November 2002, 12:00
who actually cares wether Tai Chi and such are called a martial arts, I totally agree with Hyaku that it's a bad translation anyway.

Do you really care what the outside world thinks? I don't I'm just satisfied with my training and know what I am able to do.

ChrisHein
13th November 2002, 19:57
When you think about it, a huge portion of Olympic events are martial in origin.


Yea but what I am saying is when was the last time a javelin or shot put competitor, said "you better watch it buddy, I’m martially trained"

And rogier, do you really know what you can do, my bet is that if you are only doing aikido or tai chi, then nope. How would you know all you are doing is dancing around saying your martial.

If I had a basketball camp, and I couldn't play basketball, or really understand how any one did, we wouldn't call it basketball camp, it would just be called camp!



Chris Hein
aikidoka okiedoki

:cool:

bgb
13th November 2002, 20:12
This poor troll just can not start a fight anywhere!

Barb Bloom

Charles Choi
13th November 2002, 22:11
I think this is an interesting issue to try and distinguish (albeit a hard one). I have my perception on the question raised and will answer with my views.

My slant on it is based on a recent issue raised by politicians here in Melbourne (Australia), regarding a 'combat centre'. It was singled out due to its advertisements and flyers advertising street-combative techniques. Ultimately, much of what was on the advertisement (and what the club represented) was used in a huge variation of contexts. The centre taught Close Quarters Combat under the auspices of an American based group.

The point being that the club was branded as 'thuggery'. Much of the discussion arose due to concern over children and the possibility of dangerous tactics (applied/practiced). Seeing footage of the techniques practiced by the club in the news, I don't see too much variation in what many martial arts practice.

However, it did lead me to think - how different is what I do. I came to the conclusion that differing mind-set, values and tradition (culture, technique, other) set martial arts a part from such Combat centres. Although the techniques may be the same or varied, apprciation for the tradition (sometimes at an expense) shows a different path to such 'Combative' centres. Neither is right or wrong, but depends -in my opinion- on one's values.

Happy training! :)

1/ Newspaper article: Heraldsun, an article that pushed the debate (http://www.news.com.au/common/printpage/0,6093,5417186,00.html)

2/ Nunawading CQC Scientific Fighting Congress Centre (http://www.cqctactics.com/)

3/ What CQC Nunawading had to say about the 'up-roar'. (http://www.cqctactics.com/truth.htm)

MarkF
14th November 2002, 00:41
Hi Colin,
I feel embarrassment every time I use the term "martial art" and is probably the top reason I abbreviate it. Others probably feel the same way. I stutter when some asks "how'd you get that bruise?" Sometimes, I find a way to fib a bit.

I don't think it is a bad translation, it is so limiting in nature that every person who has heard the term (involved or not) has a bad take on it. In other foreign languages with which I am familiar (romance languages) the same "translation" of it when budo isn't used is the same. The original Japanese term isn't the best, either. That is where it comes from, so perhaps it is in the root of the term itself. I personally like "combatives" or "combative sports." I am a judo player, but it pretty much fits all pretty well. Japanese Combatives is one I like, also. I find "Japanese Martial Arts & Culture" to be a bit too..., well, perhaps just "Japanese Culture and Combatives" would be better. That's my suggestion, anyway. Shortened to "Japanese Combatives," or just combatives is a good term. It pretty much covers all sorts, be they gendai or koryu.

My two cents on the term change.

MA may be a bad translation but I doubt you will find a better one. Certainly, it is a good translation of a bad term. Even terms such as budo or bugei give me a funny feeling, and budoka? Forget it. I don't think anyone truly fits that one, at least not today.
*****

Charles,
There has been quite a bit written on E-budo about the situation you mention in Australia. Many or most agree. Try searching in the Koryu jujutsu forum, or Koryu general. Much has been written about this type of organization there, and a possible legal manuever to bring about some control. Each forum has a "search box" at the bottom, but if you want to bring them all up on the same list, go to the top and click search. You can modify it from there.

Barb,

;)


Mark

ChrisHein
14th November 2002, 02:44
Well I guess it's all really semantics, however I think there too gross a generalization in the séance of martial arts. People who wanna fight are saying they do the same thing as people who wanna have a social club. When old people want exercise, and some one suggests martial arts, they get scared and say it's not possible, however when a woman gets raped and is looking for away to defend herself, and ¤¤¤¤ studies form only tai chi, she's not getting what she needs either!




chris hein
I'm a troll, I'm a troll, I'll eat your babys face!

Rogier
14th November 2002, 07:50
when a woman gets raped and is looking for away to defend herself, and ¤¤¤¤ studies form only tai chi, she's not getting what she needs either

I agree, but have you ever seen a tai chi class present itself as effective self defense? I haven't...

Bustillo, A.
15th November 2002, 08:08
Originally posted by MarkF
I know a guy who is seventy years old, is a 10-dan in his style of striking arts, and a 9-dan in Kodokan Judo and is dan graded in weapons, and he still calls it a hobby. He is also all for full contact, be it in the street when you have to, and in a ring or tatami. He promotes his own students in full contact and they win. One of his judo students was a two time Olympic Judo Champion and three time world judo champion. Another is a Sambo champ. Any of these guys is probably the one who you hope isn't in that alley when you are also in it. Yes, they are sports. So what?
Welcome to E-budo, Chris!

Mark

[AB]

Mark,

You forgot to mention his name. He is internationally known.
Here is his website in Spanish.

http://www.musashi.nl/Spanish/frame2span.htm

Gotta give it to him, the man has a sense of humor. You'll hear a funky version of an Elvis tune while you read. --What is the title of that tune?--

MarkF
16th November 2002, 11:12
You two assume too much.


Mark

yamatodamashii
16th November 2002, 11:40
Donn Dreager? Martial Ways are not Martial Arts? Anybody?

Mr. van der Peijl: I have seen taiji labelled as effective self-defense, and based on its lineage from the Shaolin temple, it it plausible. I would wager you have not seen Chen taiji? Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming and several other Yang style practitioners also have good reputations.

Bustillo, A.
16th November 2002, 12:02
Originally posted by MarkF
I know a guy who is seventy years old, is a 10-dan in his style of striking arts, and a 9-dan in Kodokan Judo and is dan graded in weapons....
Mark

Bluming, Jon Bluming, 70 years old, claims the following;
10th Dan kyokishin
9th Dan Judo
4th Dan bojutsu
4th Dan Iaido
2nd Dan kendo
As he likes to say, "it's not braggin, it's DA truth."

(And now we know he is an Elvis fan.)

Furthermore, he takes credit for training an Olympic Judo champ and a NHB type sambo champ. So, Mark, you say we assume too much...if we are mistaken, please correct us and do tell.

Mark, you offered a beautiful little story to state your case on this topic. However, why keep everyone in the dark as to the 70 years old?

Rogier
18th November 2002, 07:11
Originally posted by yamatodamashii
Donn Dreager? Martial Ways are not Martial Arts? Anybody?

Mr. van der Peijl: I have seen taiji labelled as effective self-defense, and based on its lineage from the Shaolin temple, it it plausible. I would wager you have not seen Chen taiji? Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming and several other Yang style practitioners also have good reputations.

Indeed I have not seen that, I have however heard about it. My point was merely that most tai chi classes in the west are not advertised and not given as a self defense class.

Amir
18th November 2002, 13:16
I know of a group teaching Tai-Chi as their main style (very advanced students also learn Shing-Yi & Ba-Gaua)
who, consider S.D. as part of their goals, and practice for it at the higher levels.

And believe it or not, some of their Tai-Chi students have already used it for S.D. and succeeded. I know of sevral of my school whom have similar experience (we study Korindo-Aikido).

Hence, I would say one should stop calling it M.A. when the teacher and student don't practice for it to be a M.A. and doesn't consider it one of their prime goals. Otherwise, it could be taking the long route, but it is M.A.

Amir

Jim London
19th November 2002, 05:22
All right, I am ready to push this one. Tai Chi for S.D. Then:::

Who here considers Falun Gong a martial art ??? It strengthens the body, uses Chi-Gung style postures and breathing. Espouses a moral philosophy, certainly strengthens the body. Claims that its practitioners can do amazing feets such as levitation and passing through walls. possibly these abilities could be used for S.D.

Jim London