Bujinkan????

[chris davis 200]

I recently saw several Videos of Masaki Hatsumi, demonstrating Yari as well as Shuriken and Unarmed methods.

I was thoroughly amazed at how BAD at these things he was!

In one scene he was surrounded by about 10 of his sempai, he was throwing shuriken at them and did not hit ONE, he was also throwing Powder and one exploded in his own face!!! he then attampted to role of and got stuck in a hedge!! It was comical!!

Some of the unarmed stuff was ok - but was just Basic JuJutsu as far as i could see and was different every time a different sempai showed it! Surley if this was traditional or structured Bujutsu the Techniques would be the same each time you did them??

The yari and sword work was a mocery of Bujutsu!
i have practiced Ono ha itto ryu Kenjutsu, Tenshin Hyoho Kukami Shin Ryu Bo Jutsu and Naginata, Enshin Ryu Iaido and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido. The sword work that Hatsumi desplayed left him open to attack at every point in his technique, he did not cover his centre line and his cuts where terrible! At one point he drops the Yari and pretends that it was intended - he also acidently digs it into the floor!

I had studied Bujinkan (2years) and found it to be very modern and not holding any of the key principles of weapon combat. I have seen many very good Bujinkan practitioners on the Unarmed front but after studying traditional styles, i have seen that this is just Basic JJ with a slightly different twist!

Also why does Bujinkan choose to go above 10th dan? The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good. thanks

Not trying to slay Bujinkan Practitioners, just wondering what people think about Hatsumi and Bukjinkan? My observations are scary considering his popularity!!!

Thanks
Chris

:rolleyes:

[kirigirisu]

Well said, Rick.

The answers to the rest of his queries are readily available in the FAQ.

Troll.

[paolo_italy]

Mate,

Once I read somewhere that if one has problems with the bujinkan, then he should just find someone at the appropriate level and challenge him.

Be prepared to be surprised :redhot: .

Cheers,

[chris davis 200]

Why did you post? You think Hatsumi S. Sucks? Then move on, shake your head whatever and walk on. Simple isn't it?


Thanks people - not really what i ment - i did infact say that i have seen many good Bujinkan people, just wondered why there was such a marked difference between Bujinkan and other Bujutsu Ryuha. and Why the soke seems to be quite a poor budo ka?


You ask what people think of him? Well the ones who study with him think he is great. Those that don't do not study with him. Simple again.

Good stuff- as long as people get something from their training that is all that matters, but when people proclaim to be doing traditional Bujutsu and they do something that does not resemble traditional Japanese Bujutsu then i kenda get a bit anoyed.


I have an idea though, maybe you could go show him how to really use weapons, save him from his embarrasment

Ok - will do ! :rolleyes:


Honestly, this is troll behavior

Sorry! just pointing some stuff out that i noticed and wondered whether there was a reason for the things i saw?

Cheers for the responces anyways guys.

Chris
:D

[Rikimaru]

I totally agree with Richard, William and Paolo.

Just another thing: your question on ranking above 10th DAN - there's enough information and discussion which should clarify this...

[chris davis 200]

Once I read somewhere that if one has problems with the bujinkan, then he should just find someone at the appropriate level and challenge him.

I Have and wasn't suprised - how high should i go? the guy was 5th Dan. dismiss what i saw if you will thats fine.


Just another thing: your question on ranking above 10th DAN - there's enough information and discussion which should clarify this...

Can you point me too it.

Thanks
Chris

[Shinkuri]

Some of the unarmed stuff was ok - but was just Basic JuJutsu as far as i could see and was different every time a different sempai showed it! Surley if this was traditional or structured Bujutsu the Techniques would be the same each time you did them??

Your statements reveal the depth of your understanding.
If you do decide to continue studying in the Bujinkan, this little statement will haunt you till the rest of your days.

[Tamdhu]

If the man is disappointed in what he saw in Hatsumi Soke's videos and chooses to express that, he's well within his rights to do so.

I think it's just a case of an aspiring budoka who has come to learn a few principles of movement that he is looking for in the videos and feels he is not finding. Cheers and good luck to him.

What do *I* think of Hatsumi Soke and the Bujinkan?

I think there is more meat in every move Hatsumi makes than I could digest in a lifetime. I am EXTREMELY satisfied with my training and the quality of my instructors as well as my instructors instructors.

I, however, cannot lay claim to having mastered the key principles of weapon combat, so I may well be deluded!


The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good.

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Clarification is not neccessary. It's just the way it is. As you say, the dan grading system was _invented_ to begin. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Budo, beyond it's being another training tool and distraction.

Traditional AND structured? Hmm...maybe those two ideas aren't as compatible as you have been led to think.

Having said that, the videos are funny in the sense that I can never play them for non-Bujinkan budoka and impress anyone. The reaction is always just as with the fellow above, "No way! They're doing it wrong! There's too many holes in their technique!"

I just laugh at that point, and offer them another beer.

[George Kohler]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
The yari and sword work was a mocery of Bujutsu!
i have practiced Ono ha itto ryu Kenjutsu, Tenshin Hyoho Kukami Shin Ryu Bo Jutsu and Naginata, Enshin Ryu Iaido and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido.

Since you brought up mocery of bujutsu, I saw a video of an embu which had Tanaka Fumon doing a demonstration with his sword. I'm not going to go into details, because I'm not here to embarrass anyone, but it was not a pretty sight. Point is, people do make mistakes and everyone is not perfect, including your instructor.

[paolo_italy]

hello,

in brief:

1) how high should you go: it depends on you. If you find someone saying he's better than you, than there's your challenge, man. In my dojo it happens occasionally with local machomen: they usually don't pass the PT :rolleyes:

2) the point is not that grades go *above*, but *into*. To keep it simple, when your reach 10th Dan (Shihan), in order to be a Tatsujin (complete man) your study will proceed into 5 sub-levels, according to the Godai. You are 10th Dan Chigyo (1st sublevel), 10th Dan Suigyo (2nd sublevel) and the like.

Moreover, do some research and you'll see that Hatsumi sensei has been appointed with an high honor by one of the most importat sword associations of Japan.

Again, my kata (as many of us in bujinkan) is not a perfect one, but it works. I have tested in real threatening scenarios due to my job, and consider that I was taught from a student of our teacher...

Maybe you simply can't get what rises from the videos... Just change your perspective if you wanna stay safe. Otherwise, keep going alone with your ego. No flame intended, just MHO.

:moon:

[Tamdhu]

With ninjutsu, however, many of the 'mistakes' are not mistakes at all.

Dropping your weapon at times can be a very powerful technique, though that may or may not have been the case in the video segment in question. Nonetheless, a consistent theme in Hatsumi Soke's training is to 'keep going', no matter what. Another common theme is that of putting traditional items to non-traditional uses (think 'weapons' or 'dan-grading system') All of his videos contain bits that look to me at first like mistakes, but as my training goes on, those points become increasingly interesting.

[paolo_italy]

Originally posted by Tamdhu

Having said that, the videos are funny in the sense that I can never play them for non-Bujinkan budoka and impress anyone. The reaction is always just as with the fellow above, "No way! They're doing it wrong! There's too many holes in their technique!"

I just laugh at that point, and offer them another beer.

this is the big advantage of x-kan! for other traditions and gendai budo (I include here judo-akido-karate too), if you do something different from what they're used to see, you're wrong...

Pssst! Keep this secret... :D

[kimq]

Go take up Brazilian Jujutsu. Bye-bye. :mst:

[chris davis 200]

Thanks for the responces


I think it's just a case of an aspiring budoka who has come to learn a few principles of movement that he is looking for in the videos and feels he is not finding.

I have been studying traditional Japapanese MA's for around 16 years, I have studied Directly under Okabayashi sensei, Menkyo in Ono Ha itto ryu as well as Fumon Tanaka.


I think there is more meat in every move Hatsumi makes than I could digest in a lifetime. I am EXTREMELY satisfied with my training and the quality of my instructors as well as my instructors instructors.

I am glad that you are enjoying your training, i am just saying that from my experience (personal perspective) i have found most Bujinkan practitioners make Hatsumi out to be this superman, you seem to confirm this in the above comment - he is just a man after all! if he mastered the principles in his lifetime - why then do you feel you cant? From what i saw he isnt a superman.


I saw a video of an embu which had Tanaka Fumon doing a demonstration with his sword. I'm not going to go into details, because I'm not here to embarrass anyone, but it was not a pretty sight. Point is, people do make mistakes and everyone is not perfect, including your instructor.

I totally agree, everyone makes mistakes. But when people blatently make mistakes and then say 'the reason i did this was...', I find that a bit silly! He knows that people will swallow it so thats that.


The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good.

I have now seen the reason for this in the FAQ section. All is clear now. Thanks.


Having said that, the videos are funny in the sense that I can never play them for non-Bujinkan budoka and impress anyone. The reaction is always just as with the fellow above, "No way! They're doing it wrong! There's too many holes in their technique!"

Maybe the reason for this is that there are too many holes. Not saying that is the case, just maybe it is.

Similarly, you can never play a tape for a Bujinkan practitioner and them say ' ahhh yes i see the problem there' I can normally justify my reasons for why i think there are problems, in general Bujinkan people cannot explain why those holes/problems are there, this is the main reason i posted.


I just laugh at that point, and offer them another beer.

Probably the best spirit to take this sort of thing in, especially if you cant explain why the problems are there.


Your statements reveal the depth of your understanding.

what i ment by this statement is that all Koryu have a specific sylabus, When sempais or teachers teach a technique or demonstrate it for the camera they all tend to do the same thing - they use the same principles etc, but in this vid, One guy did the technique one way and then did the EXACT technique again it was different although it was the EXACT same technique - not a variation! Just wondered why this was the case! then another person came onto the screen and demonstrated the technique again and it was DIFFERENT AGAIN!!! I am not talking about body position or movement, i am talking fundimentals like, placement of grip, strike, blocking type, etc etc! it sound like this could be a variation but it was NOT!

Thanks for the responces. Was not expecting agreement just thought i would see if there where reasons.

cheers
Chris

[Kamiyama]

I feel everyone should have the chance to ask questions and make comments on a forum about the subject matter of the forum.

I believe someone should take the step up to the post an answer him without personal attacks on what he asked.

I believe personal attacks towards his post only support his cause.

kamiyama, ralph severe

[chris davis 200]

'Go take up Brazilian Jujutsu. Bye-bye'

Thanks, but no thanks!

'if you do something different from what they're used to see, you're wrong'

Not saying that - just saying the holes are quite obvious!

'I have tested in real threatening scenarios due to my job'

as have i!

'I believe personal attacks towards his post only support his cause'

indeed.

'Dropping your weapon at times can be a very powerful technique'

Sorry but i know that if i was facing a skilled swordsman i would prefer to have my Yari in my hands! :)

'Just change your perspective if you wanna stay safe. Otherwise, keep going alone with your ego'

Maybe the perspective of Bujinkan and hatsumi is also in need of a change from many people on this forum, looking at things from another perspective is what i always try to do , this is how you learn, just could not see a reason for what he was doing from any perspective.

Im not talking from ego but from observation.

Thanks
Chris

[Tamdhu]

One more comment about mistakes and the 'keep going' attitude.

There was a video I saw a while back (I forget which) where Hatsumi Soke was demonstrating a technique and the weapon he was using got caught on something as he drew it.

He made a mistake! AGGGGH!

The brilliant thing was that rather than stop everything and re-do it 'correctly', or say something like "Whoa, folks! Don't let THIS happen!", he spotlighted the incident as exactly the sort of thing that WILL HAPPEN in the heat of a real fight, and exactly the sort of thing we must train encompass.

He then KEPT GOING and CHANGED his approach (yes, Virginia, he did it INCORRECTLY because that's what the new situation called for) and completed the technique without worrying or stumbling over the fact that his sword didn't draw properly, or got caught on something, or broke or turned into a snake or whatever.

That very concept is KEY to survival in the midst of chaos, and yet it's the one that offends our Western mindset the most, because we want to look in a textbook and cross-refernce every 'attack' with it's 'proper' defense.

That sort of training has value, but only as a jumping-off point.

[El Guapo-san]

Instead of relying on videos, why not fly to Japan and challenge Hatsumi? Or, if he's not around, why not challenge Nogato-sensei? I'm sure he'd oblidge you, given your outstanding koryu ranks and all.

So you bought a video and didn't like it. Big deal. This reminds me of some Katori Shinto Ryu guys I once ran across here in Amsterdam. I thought it would be nice to go to a few of their classes, but was curtly informed that it was a "way of life", not "just classes". Chief teacher wasn't there, but the one student I talked to was such a whonker that I didn't need to see anymore. Your comments reflect on your ryu in a similar manner.

You may be a Menkyo kaiden Chris, but you don't know how to use spell or grammer check, now do you? Then again, traditionally such things didn't exist 200 years ago did they? So then no need for you to update your tools....

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

[chris davis 200]

El Guapo-san

Lovely post - i do not profess to be anything more than a student of traditional martial arts. I do not wish to challenge anyone although they are free to challenge me, i do not need to prove myself or test my techniques!

I have not got a Menkyo in any system.


Instead of relying on videos

Who said i was doing that?? i did in fact say that i have trained somewhat in Bujinkan! please re read!

I point out some glaring errors and people have to get personal!


Chief teacher wasn't there, but the one student I talked to was such a whonker that I didn't need to see anymore. Your comments reflect on your ryu in a similar manner.

i dont really see how? you closed minded childish responces do however show you to be someone with no real answers just a complex about your own knowledge!


but you don't know how to use spell or grammer check, now do you? Then again, traditionally such things didn't exist 200 years ago did they? So then no need for you to update your tools

I rest my case!!! what on earth has this got anything to do with the descussion? did you understand what i wrote? yes. Where is the problem!

Anyways,
Chris

[Tamdhu]

Similarly, you can never play a tape for a Bujinkan practitioner and them say ' ahhh yes i see the problem there' I can normally justify my reasons for why i think there are problems, in general Bujinkan people cannot explain why those holes/problems are there, this is the main reason i posted.

Point taken, but to me it's not a question of justifying the holes. The holes are there, or at least they seem to be according to my current understanding of what I'm seeing on the videos, but to me that just gets at the question of "why are the videos there?" The videos are flashy and fun short-hand references to the Bujinkan training curriculum and not a whole lot more. That's my curent opinion, subject to change as time goes on!

If you're as highly trained and dedicated as you seem to be, I can only suggest that you check out Hatsumi's hombu dojo yourself. I don't mean this in a "why don't you go challenge him" sort of way, but just that I think it might be worth your while to visit and check out the training, if you're as serious about your study of budo as you appear to be. A query a kutaki.org would surely find you someone willing to make introductions and let you observe a class or two. Just a thought.

E-budo will get you lot's of heated opinions, and videos are always easy to pick apart, and yet this Hatsumi person has a lot of very interesting people that seem to think quite highly of him.

If you're satisfied with the discussion here, then fine, but I strongly urge you to investigate this for real. I'd really like to hear what you make of it all first hand.

Otherwise, please try to forgive the rash and emotional responses to your query. You have every right to challenge and question what you see. I'd like to see this thread continue for a while before it gets canned as 'too controversial'.

[chris davis 200]

The brilliant thing was that rather than stop everything and re-do it 'correctly', or say something like "Whoa, folks! Don't let THIS happen!", he spotlighted the incident as exactly the sort of thing that WILL HAPPEN in the heat of a real fight, and exactly the sort of thing we must train encompass.

This is an exellent example of a very real situation. Thankyou for pointing that out, in my school this is also the case, if something does not go as planned then you improvise using the principles that you know.


I can only suggest that you check out Hatsumi's hombu dojo yourself. I don't mean this in a "why don't you go challenge him" sort of way, but just that I think it might be worth your while to do so, if you're as serious about your study of budo as you appear to be.

thankyou, i may well.

i will let you know my opinions if in fact i do.

Thankyou
Chris

[Oni]

Ok then. Some of the responses have been good. In any organization there are bound to be people out there that want to question it...sometimes negatively. This is to be expected. The Bujinkan has no need for heated, angry responses to negative questions. There is no need to be insultive of the person asking such questions. One of my policies has always been to allow unpopular questions here. If you decided to continue to answers questions here please keep your answers civil and non insulting/threatening. Please do not make challenges for people such as Hatsumi sensei or Nagato sensei.

Consider how you would react if someone came into your own dojo asking these types of questions. I am sure most of you would not attack that person...but would instead want to help that person understand what you yourself understand. If they did not agree with you, they could go on their merry way. Meeting negativity with negativity rarely resolves an issue.

Thanks to those of you that have responded responsibly and thoughtfully to this thread.

[paolo_italy]

Hey Chris,

Don't misunderstand me...


Originally posted by chris davis 200

'if you do something different from what they're used to see, you're wrong'

Not saying that - just saying the holes are quite obvious!



And then? You already have a hint: "these are holes, watch out!". I'm not trying to hide myself behind a finger, just I don't understand where's the usefulness of your saying "you are so bad". You should admit that Hatsumi sensei, as a normal human being, wouldn't give out videos that make him ridiculous, isn't? He who knows what's the intention behind apparently obvious mistakes is a sage.



'I have tested in real threatening scenarios due to my job'

as have i!


Hell, I had the hope to be the only one that had to face those f-- situations... ;)



'Just change your perspective if you wanna stay safe. Otherwise, keep going alone with your ego'

Maybe the perspective of Bujinkan and hatsumi is also in need of a change from many people on this forum, looking at things from another perspective is what i always try to do , this is how you learn, just could not see a reason for what he was doing from any perspective.

Im not talking from ego but from observation.



You're right, we should all keep firmly in mind not to fossilize on a perspective. Again, Hatsumi has a job: he is Soke of 9 ancient ryuha. He does it in a very traditional way, in every sense. You couldn't see the reason for something? No problem, I personally can't see the reason of many things that happen in this world.

Concerning ego, you are saying you can judge the goodness of the way of teaching of a SOKE... I'm sure that wasn't your intention: maybe your first post had to be something like: "hey dudes, i've seen videos of hatsumi sensei, it seems he and the other pals make mistakes. am i wrong or there could be a possible reason of that?"... Who knows, maybe he had to tell'em they needed to improve...

Bye,

[chris davis 200]

Concerning ego, you are saying you can judge the goodness of the way of teaching of a SOKE... I'm sure that wasn't your intention

Granted that is how it sounded, i am not actually trying to say that, i was simply pointing out that in my opinion his technique looked quite sloppy. That definatly does not reflect his abilities as a teacher, or SOKE. Its just that if someone where to judge Bujinkan by the abilities of their SOKE they may not be very impressed, this is indeed the case for me.

He did explode powder in his own face though! Now you can not tell me that sort of thing is intentional, Considering this was most probably just a Mistake, It did make him look a bit silly to some people! Maybe that is not quite the image a Soke wishes to display? Not for me to say. :)



You should admit that Hatsumi sensei, as a normal human being, wouldn't give out videos that make him ridiculous

He makes a hell of a lot of money from them regardless, why not?


Hell, I had the hope to be the only one that had to face those f-- situations...

:p


You couldn't see the reason for something? No problem, I personally can't see the reason of many things that happen in this world.

Indeed - thats why i asked though!

cheers
Chris

[paolo_italy]

chris

I don't know why. I mean the objective truth. I have mine, but you won't accept it 'cause it will sound too bujinkan-sided (sorry for my English, I hope I got the correct mix of words :D ).

you can go to japan and ask him directly, if you wish, or write to hombu (see guidelines at www.bujinkan.com). Maybe you can ask a shihan featuring that videos through someone traininj in japan (or even through george ohashi).

Let us (well, me... LOL)know.

Good evening (here's 6.40pm)...

[Onmitsu]

I see Hatsumi Masaaki as a kind of Picasso of a Martial artists. Some folks don't realize that before Picasso began his rather unique style of art he had a complete understanding of and could do the contemporary art of his time with the best of them. Then he threw away the rules but maintained all the principles of what makes for good art. I think that Hatsumi S. has done the same.
Before I came to study Taijutsu I had been involved in many other Martial arts. I learned the hard way that looks can be decieving. A lot of the obvious openings are just that. They are an invitation. It's like the magician that fans out a pack of cards and says pick any card but thrusts out the center of the pack in your face forcing you to pick from where he wants you to.

Chris, I have to admit that I am not currently a student of the Bujinkan but I have trained in and with members of Hatsumi S. teachings. I must reiterate, what you see is not always what you get. I am surprised that after studying for 2 years in the Bujinkan that you haven't encountered the deceptive nature and multi-layers of some of the Ninpo techniques. Then again two years is just a drop in the bucket and all instructors are not created equal.

What I find interesting is that one can take a single basic technique and do it in a thousand variations according to the unfolding of the moment and circumstance. All the while the core principles of the technique are there but it looks completely different. I used to think, "Hey, this is just a variation of Jujutsu!", But once I began to be taught some of what my eyes were missing there was a lot more going on. I think this is part of the reason that Ninpo has survived the post WWII ban on martial arts (other than sport related arts)
Ninpo doesn't look like much. I call it "Film at 11" martial arts because you could defend your self on the steps of the court house with the media cameras rolling and it could come off as some sloppy accidental mess. The kind of thing that one would want in a society pervasive with litigation.

Oh, and Chris, as someone once pointed out to me
It's a good thing that I don't fight as bad as I type (heh, heh)


Just my 2 yen worth.:toast:

[chris davis 200]

paolo,

cheers.

good evening,

Chris

[chris davis 200]

'I am surprised that after studying for 2 years in the Bujinkan that you haven't encounterd the deceptive nature and multi-layers of some of the Ninpo techniques.'

I do believe that this is the same for most arts though. I daito Ryu every technique holds this quality.


A lot of the obvious openings are just that. They are an invitation. It's like the magician that fans out a pack of cards and says pick any card but thrusts out the center of the pack in your face forcing you to pick from where he wants you to.

Indeed, this is very much the case in all the weaponry arts that i have studied, but where as the openings in the Arts that i have studied have been subtle to entice an attack without risking your yourself, in this demonstration the openings seemed HUGE and telegraphed, the attackes that followed where not in responce to the opening as i would have expected, but in some cases where attacking an already guarded position? What would be the point? you would just place yourself at risk!


I see Hatsumi Masaaki as a kind of Picasso of a Martial artists. Some folks don't realize that before Picasso began his rather unique style of art he had a complete understanding of and could do the contemporary art of his time with the best of them. Then he threw away the rules but maintained all the principles of what makes for good art.

This evolution past technique to 'spontanious exicution of limitless technique' is by no means common to Hatsumi (if indeed this is the case) as all Masters tend to reach this limitless level of achievement, i believe that this is what makes them masters.


I used to think, "Hey, this is just a variation of Jujutsu!", But once I began to be taught some of what my eyes were missing there was a lot more going on.

I must state that the vast majority of JuJutsu currently being practiced (especially in the US) holds little resembleance to Traditional JuJutsu. I would say that the above quote is definatly the case in the style that i study (Daito Ryu) and most other Koryu styles of JuJutsu. BJJ etc has misrepresented the art beond all recognition.


I call it "Film at 11" martial arts because you could defend your self on the steps of the court house with the media cameras rolling and it could come off as some sloppy accidental mess.

this is nearly always the case regardless of the style, it will never look like it does in the Dojo.

Thanks
Chris

[Shinkuri]

I have to say, seriously, Greg's above response was the best to Chris's intial post. Even though he isn't Bujinkan anymore.

It doesn't sound like Chris has had the oppotunity to actually see or train with Hatsumi sensei yet.
I highly encourage him to train with Hatsumi sensei before he makes sweeping statements on how bad he is at Budo.

Satements like that can really come back to bite you on the butt later.

[matthew18]

hi

i just want to say Budo should not be taken at face value, and for Hatsumi Sencei he is a very complex and skilled human being.
Most of his top level students cant understand what he is doing normally, he does a technique and next he explodes into another with little effort.

Hatsumi sencei cant be judged by people younger and inexperienced as him, only by older and wiser! :D

As Sencei says the famous words of "keep going", as there are no short cuts to mastery.

Matthew Morgan
Bujikan Budo Taijutsu

[kimq]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Indeed, this is very much the case in all the weaponry arts that i have studied, but where as the
openings in the Arts that i have studied have been subtle to entice an attack without risking your yourself, in this demonstration the openings seemed HUGE and telegraphed, the attackes that followed where not in responce to the opening as i would have expected, but in some cases where attacking an already guarded position? What would be the point? you would just place yourself at risk!

Have you considered that it is an instructional video and that the movements are grossly exaggerated for the untrained eye to perceive the basic principles that Soke is trying to convey over a completely impersonal medium?

[tenchijin2]

Guys,

If someone thinks that Hatsumi's technique is sloppy, then there's not much use arguing with him! Hatsumisensei's philosophy on technique, sloppiness and koryu 'traditional' training are well documented in his books.

Insulting Chris's experience or questioning his integrity... accusing him of being from the Ashida Kim board? Com'on! It's not worth it. Even though his remarks may seem insulting. We simply don't see the same as he does.

One other thing: claiming that we're just so foolish and young that we can't judge Hatsumi sensei's skill (as though he's some kind of deity) is what makes the Bujinkan members seem cult like. He's human, with an amazing depth and breadth of knowledge in budo. There's no need to put him upon a pedestal, okay?

[BigJon]

"In one scene he was surrounded by about 10 of his sempai, he was throwing shuriken at them and did not hit ONE, "


You must have seen a different video, in my copy he hits them dead on...

Jon Gillespie

[Jim_Jude]

I liked what Sensei said at Ayase once:"Those videos are crap. They're just like a commercial. But don't tell anyone or they might not buy them, & I'd feel bad for those people at Quest."

After I trained with him, I don't ever really watch vids, they're more like watching tv. I like to refer to my notes & close my eyes and see what I actually saw.

Wait, you said that you "challenged" a Godan? Who was this? & you have precious little in your profile. Maybe someone here would like to offer you a complementary class or two. Who knows? You may have a second opinion of your own.

[El Guapo-san]

Obviously subtlty and sarcasm are lost on alot of folks. No, I didn't issue challenges for anybody. My point is that if you have a problem with somebody's video, go see them about it. Otherwise, commentary is armchair. Did I make any claims about me or my knowledge of Bujinkan, KTSR or Nekko no Kenpo? Nah. Nowhere.

Second, go back and reread the post. Your koryu can be fine, for 1750. Concentrating on historical kata is great, but kind of, well, stylized. Sort of like a tea ceremony or something. Ergo, no need to put new tools in the toolchest, if ya see what I mean.

Looks like you kind of 'flipped out' Chris... heh heh heh.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

[Soulend]

Don't know if this is relevant, as I don't know when this video was made, but Mr. Hatsumi is getting on in years.

I am reminded of a video showing a very elderly exponent of SGR demonstrating kata. SGR has a movement called 'tobichigai' which is a jumping switch of the feet, however this gentleman could no longer jump in the air, so he simply switched his feet. This is apparently one way you can tell if someone learned this particular kata from the video ;) Someone who was (somehow) familiar with the kata but not with the seniority of this gentleman would probably conclude that his technique is 'sloppy', but the fact of the matter is that age takes it's toll. Doesn't take anything away from the wisdom or experience gained by many decades of study and practice. Actually I am usually pretty impressed at the senior exponent's perseverence, and at the depth of their understanding, even if their technique isn't as technically good as it once was.

Sorry if this doesn't apply here, please disregard if this is the case.

[Tamdhu]

Just a reminder: The initial comments, while challenging, were not childish or offensive, and neither were his subsequent responses to counter-criticism. The man has a right to express his opinion, and does NOT need to prove his credentials or anything else. Hatsumi Soke is a public figure and hence open for commentary, favourable or otherwise.

He is playing perfectly within the e-budo guidelines and should be treated with as much respect as anyone else.

If Chris 200 were claiming to be a ninja soke or somesuch himself, then he would himself be open to criticism him/herself and/or demands for some sort of validation.

Chris claims to be 'a man on the path' like the rest of us, and I so far see no reason to believe otherwise.

This was a great opportunity for some good discussion, IMHO.

[Peter Holden]

I am a member of the Bujinkan and I agree that Hatsumi-sensei's technique videos are not that great. Having seen one being produced let me tell you that there is:

no preparation

everything is done in one take

Hatsumi-sensei is often performing techniques for the first time (as was the powder and shuriken scene)

Often the people demonstrating the techniques (such as the bo video) are newbies and are performing a technique they have never seen for the first time.

Usually just a henka of the technique is shown. The real technique not being revealed.

Hatsumi-sensei is usually talking, playing up for the camera and not even attempting to go into the sort of detail he does in his classes.

A lot of the stuff is never even done in his classes.

.......

Sorry to be controversial but even Hatsumi-sensei says that these videos are just advertisements and he is not showing any of the important stuff in them. Much better to watch the Taikai or Daikomyosai videos as they are just filming a normal class. Hatsumi-sensei has also said this.

[Peter Holden]

In all honesty I think Janty is correct, the thread starter is an agenda troll.
He is suppossed to be an experienced budoka but he joined e-budo to start this thread on the Bujinkan. If he had been here for I while and posting in the koryu or sword forums I may have believed it but if anyone goes to the trouble of joining to attack another organisation well .........

I would suggest that the guy is a disgruntled Bujinkan guy looking to troll up some trouble.

[icynorth]

Good topic. And one I have had arguements with local Karateka I know.
Hatsumi Sensei has a humanness about him. Though I do agree people do put him up a bit too high, considering he is always preaching being a human.
I agree totally with Janty, first off, watch the right vid. The Shindenfudoryu was great as were the last 2 that came out in 2000. Also to see that and then even see him live, you can actually feel the difference. Just watching the movements in front of you give you a definite perspective. I must watch the 2000 Tai Kai tape 10 times a year, I remember watching him slap Yabanuka into a cartwheel with a slight shift of the hip. Being no less than 20 feet from that happening, you felt it too!! It was awsome!
And I for one have never seen a technique duplicated the same ever. And I am happy of that, life is never the same.:)

[Billy]

...then another person came onto the screen and demonstrated the technique again and it was DIFFERENT AGAIN!!!

My guess is that you failed to notice exactly what was being presented. While it all comes down to your understanding and development of koppo (kotsu), my suggestion would be to watch the video again, this time - look beyond fundamental application - and try to discern the essence of giho.


The sword work that Hatsumi desplayed left him open to attack at every point in his technique, he did not cover his centre line and his cuts where terrible!

I believe the quote above also reflects a serious deficiency in understanding even elementary bujutsu. Simply put, you’ll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar.


At one point he drops the Yari and pretends that it was intended - he also acidently digs it into the floor!

If you’re referring to the Quest video, Hatsumi-sensei did not “accidentally” dig it into the floor - it was an intentional act to maintain balance.

If you’re intent is truly to get answers, I seriously believe you need to rethink your approach. As far as videos go, I’ve personally got a lot of information from them and believe them to be a tremendous suppliment. But then, I guess it all depends on what one sees. Where “mistakes” are concerned, perhaps it may help to consider why they were not cut during the editing process.

Billy Shearer
Bujinkan Zenka Dojo

[Joachim]

Originally posted by El Guapo-san
Second, go back and reread the post. Your koryu can be fine, for 1750. Concentrating on historical kata is great, but kind of, well, stylized. Sort of like a tea ceremony or something. Ergo, no need to put new tools in the toolchest, if ya see what I mean.


So, which of the "new tools" taught in the Bujinkan do you use for self defense in the dangerous streets of modern Amsterdam? The shinobigatana, tachi, kamayari, naginata, kussari-gama, kyoketusu-shogei, .....?

While dissing koryu budo's "concentrating on historical kata", you were thinking about the relevance of training shinken shiraha-dome for gun disarm techniques, weren't you?

[Okami]

Hello.

I have to agree with "Tamdhu". If you don't have anything constructive to say, then don't post. I didn't saw anything in the thread starter postings that was insulting, if you don't agree with him fine, no need for "he's a troll" postings.

This is by far the most interesting thread in a long time.

To the moderator(s), please do not close this thread! If someone starts to insult delete or edit his posting, the thread had some very good postings from both "sides", so it would be a shame to close it. And I hope that there will be some more good postings if the "let's make this a flamerwar so he'll close it" tactics will fail.

"Now, I must go back to the Ashida Kim board" ;)

Cheers,

Mijo.

[paolo_italy]

yesterday before sleeping I was reading my new copy of (ad) "Understand? Good. Play!".

it remembered me that the modern-day ninja mission is: "to protect yourself, to protect your family, to protect your nation".

Maybe the various reactions to the starting post here could be seen as a willingness to "protect our family" in a martial meaning (more appropriately our buyu community). I thought this 'cause of the motto that says: "the connection between father and son lasts 1 life, between wife and husband 2 lives, between teacher and student 3 lives". :D I don't quite remember the sequence but I think it's the correct one...
This let me think that all three are "families", and "to protect your family" does include to protect your teacher, IMHO.

Concerning the holes in techniques (well, I didn't check the videos but...), maybe chriss you can take it as a suggestion. In one of the books of Hatsumi Sensei ("hiden togakure ryu ninpo" sp?) is written: "If you rectify your weak points, you can be a wonderful Budoka". Obvious? Watch around: don't think so... :p

[Mike Williams]

Originally posted by Peter Holden
Having seen one being produced let me tell you that there is:

no preparation

everything is done in one take

Hatsumi-sensei is often performing techniques for the first time (as was the powder and shuriken scene)

Often the people demonstrating the techniques (such as the bo video) are newbies and are performing a technique they have never seen for the first time.

...and he's charging money for them?

Sorry, but the above strikes me as deeply unprofessional. If the vid's are meant as training tools, then it is the duty of the teacher and demonstrators to show as near to perfect form as they can muster.

If the vid's are meant as an advertisement, then double the effort needs to be taken - to avoid the type of criticism that gave rise to this thread.

Surely if you're putting something into the public domain you owe it to your customers/audience/students to produce the best product you can.

There is far too much shoddy MA material out there already.

Cheers,

Mike

[paolo_italy]

Originally posted by Mike Williams


If the vid's are meant as training tools, then it is the duty of the teacher and demonstrators to show as near to perfect form as they can muster.

If the vid's are meant as an advertisement, then double the effort needs to be taken - to avoid the type of criticism that gave rise to this thread.



None of them, mate... In ninjutsu it's not that case. Do you really think that something kept secret for 1000 years will be taught on videos? C'mon, kyojitsu tenkan ho is the essence of our system.
I understand this is far from clear for those not *living* our training, since it's much more than a mere collection of kata's.
Again, like Sanmyaku, written about things that *must and can only* be explained directly by Soke and seniors, you need to read between the lines. The surface is for the others. Can you imagine a better place to hide a secret than leaving it under the sunshine?

The difference between a fellow of X-kan and pratictioners of other MA's is the possession of the reading key, although the more you are "into the path", the deeper you will read.

IMHO. :mst:

[Tamdhu]

The videos are, I think, great advertisements. They are 'cool and 'exciting' enough to pique the interest of a casual viewer, while still containing plenty of 'notes' for an active practicioner. I say notes not in the sense of "Here's how to do technique or kata x from a to z", but more in the sense of "Here's a rough sketch of one approach to kata or technique x" which is more than enough to stimulate some good ideas based on class notes and previous (and future) experience, even though the 'rough sketch' has 'holes' to a critical non-Bujinkan viewer.

The production quality is good and the material is interesting and informative. It's not a substitute for training, nor is it a 'snapshot of the state-of-the-art'. No one is being cheated in any way.


Paulo - I agree with your 'protecting the family' sentiment whole-heartedly, as do I agree with the underlying protective impulse of _everyone_ who joined the thread to clarify the situation in their own way. We all clearly share a love and respect for Hatsumi Soke's wisdom and skill, which surely appears strange at times to outsiders!

Gambatte ne!

[Peter Holden]

Originally posted by Mike Williams


...and he's charging money for them?

Sorry, but the above strikes me as deeply unprofessional. If the vid's are meant as training tools, then it is the duty of the teacher and demonstrators to show as near to perfect form as they can muster.

If the vid's are meant as an advertisement, then double the effort needs to be taken - to avoid the type of criticism that gave rise to this thread.

Surely if you're putting something into the public domain you owe it to your customers/audience/students to produce the best product you can.

There is far too much shoddy MA material out there already.

Cheers,

Mike

It maybe hard to understand if you are not a Bujinkan guy but Hatsumi-sensei would view rehearsing, doing something in more than one take, preparation and using only people who know the material as being dishonest.

To him everything in the MA exists for the moment and if you make a mistake when put on the spot on video then it stays. You only have one life and if you make the mistake on the battlefield then you will be dead.

Even in class Hatsumi-sensei does something once and once only. If most of us took his approach then probably only 20-30% of what we do would be any good. Hatsumi-sensei manages over 90% pretty comfortably I think - as captured warts and all on video.

It might be hard to understand if you have never trained with him. A good example of the way Hatsumi-sensei takes a video could be seen the same as the way a lot of jazz and blues used to be recorded. Even though it was in a studio there was just one take, and one take only. Maybe the artist could have done it better but to keep it pure and raw the one take rule was employed by many producers.

So if Hatsumi-sensei goes through all the spear techniques for the video company he will just pick up a spear on the day and show all 50 odd one at a time - one take.

Chris Davis picked up two mistakes in the video. At one point Hatsumi-sensei loses his balance when demonsrating a henka and recovers by digging the end of the spear into the ground and spinning out of it. He didn't say "I meant to do that" but just "this is what you do in this situation".

In the second Hastumi-sensei loses his left hand grip on the spear and again recovers from it - no big deal. Two mistakes in one hour of filming ... better than I could do.

Is it a good video? If you have studied spear with Hatsumi-sensei then maybe it's not so great, a technique he may have spent a month teaching is given 2 minutes. If you are interested in what the Bujinkan spear is about then it is a good advertisement and you'll have a fair idea by the end of the video to decide if you want to train in the Bujinkan spear or not. It can also be seen as a good introduction.

I again state that IMO Chris Davis is a troll. Why? Because he joined e-budo to start this thread. If he is genuine then why didn't he start off with a topic that interested him (koryu budo) rather than just attacking the Bujinkan.

I love the Bujinkan and I love the training and I wouldn't give it up for the world.

[El Guapo-san]

Oh Joachim you got wrong what I was saying. If Chris the Troll is going to go on about his extensive knowledge of koryu, that's fine. What I mean by new tools is looking at modern applications of older things, such as Muto Dori of Takagi Yoshin. Obviously I'm not going to run into much of anyone menacing tourists with a katana on Lediseplein, but the techniques can be useful in other, more modern situations.

By leaving everything 'as learned' in a koryu art, without learning or experimenting with different applications, you're only going to be able to defend yourself against that naginata-weilding crackhead who hangs out at the main train station.

I've learned Muto Dori in Japan and here with Sveneric Bogsater. The video helps remind me of things, but is no substitute for live classes. Of course it's different, but that's the point. Chris, obviously, has no idea of this and is simply a troll, or has been doing taijutsu for two years without moving from where he started.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Originally posted by chris davis 200

Also why does Bujinkan choose to go above 10th dan? The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good. thanks

Not trying to slay Bujinkan Practitioners, just wondering what people think about Hatsumi and Bukjinkan? My observations are scary considering his popularity!!!



Hmm,

The same reason other martial arts go up to 10th Dan or only have 3 grades or none at all. Martial arts is man made at the end of the day and even if he did make a mistake, who cares!

If you've never tripped or done a technique wrong then you are not a martial artist. From what i gather it's sounds like a slay if you ask me.

I only did bujinkan for a little while, because it was not for me. that does not mean that it's not good, it's just does not suit me.

Some Bujinkan members out there are rubbish and some are great. But i think this applies for Karate, Taekwondo, Ju jitsu and Gung fu. I could find a dodgy pic in a second of any of these styles. But that does not mean that the styles rubbish, it's down to the individual at the end of the day.

Cheers

Matt Boxall

[chris davis 200]

Hello people, sorry i havn't been back to this for a while!

I think this thread has opened up something that many people where thinking but did not want to raise.


In all honesty I think Janty is correct, the thread starter is an agenda troll.

People should really start to be a bit more mature in their comments.
i did in fact join e-budo some time ago and have posted in the Aiki Arts section many times, I did loose my login n got a new one - this was also some time ago.

My budo training is such - although i have no way to prove this onlin!

2 years - Wado ryu Karate,
2 years - Bujinkan Ninjutsu
4 years (intensive) - Kodokan Judo
6 years (intensive) - Daito ryu aiki jujutsu Hakkuho Kai, Ono Ha itto Ryu, enshin Ryu (inc - tenshin Hyoho)
1 year Muso jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido
3 years (intensive) - Chen Tai chi and Hsing I (not Budo but Martial training none the less)

These timescale do overlap if you are wondering why they dont add up. All of my training has been intensive not just the once a week stuff.

Believe me or not, its your choice - that is not relevant to the thread and i do not see why i need to inform of my background in order to be concidered.


My guess is that you failed to notice exactly what was being presented. While it all comes down to your understanding and development of koppo (kotsu), my suggestion would be to watch the video again, this time - look beyond fundamental application - and try to discern the essence of giho.

My teacher an extremely experienced budoka (japan) was watching with me and agreed that the techniques where not variations or explanations of what could happen etc etc. I my (and my teachers) experience training in classical ryuha a technique is a technique and when demonstrating the technique for instruction it should ALWAYS be the same.


It might be hard to understand if you have never trained with him. A good example of the way Hatsumi-sensei takes a video could be seen the same as the way a lot of jazz and blues used to be recorded. Even though it was in a studio there was just one take, and one take only. Maybe the artist could have done it better but to keep it pure and raw the one take rule was employed by many producers.

But these videos are billed as instructional!! i am not necisarilly saying that a master cannot adapt and recreate things due to his inclination but i am saying that for an instructional video teaching specific kata this kind of approach does not make much sense. When someone goes to the video to refresh their memory on a Kata they will see something like him loosing grip of the yari and might think ' ahh thats the right way, it must be - he is the soke' and then will start to do that in the kata, this will in turn change the training methods and change the art as a whole!


Chris Davis picked up two mistakes in the video. At one point Hatsumi-sensei loses his balance when demonsrating a henka and recovers by digging the end of the spear into the ground and spinning out of it. He didn't say "I meant to do that" but just "this is what you do in this situation".

this is not what happened i am affraid -i think you must be looking at a different video. The incident i refer to happens during a swing, and the yari digs into the floor behind him, he did not loose balance he just didn't swing correctly and accidently stuck it into the ground. he did then pulled it out and continue with the swing from that position.


In the second Hastumi-sensei loses his left hand grip on the spear and again recovers from it - no big deal. Two mistakes in one hour of filming ... better than I could do.

In this section of the video he looses grip on the yari and drops it to the ground! not completely but he does drop it. In this situation against mildley competent swordsman he would be dead. no recovery, no opps you can correct by..., he would be dead.
In my experience weaponry is all about openings, creating them, and taking advantage of them. In a duel between two experienced warriors a mistake like this would cost you your life. For this very reason Kata where practiced strictly (without ANY variation) until you could, when the pressure is on, fight proficiently without loss of focus or guard.


I again state that IMO Chris Davis is a troll. Why? Because he joined e-budo to start this thread. If he is genuine then why didn't he start off with a topic that interested him (koryu budo) rather than just attacking the Bujinkan

please refer to the top of my post. I did not join to start this thread - but you are entitled to your opinion.


By leaving everything 'as learned' in a koryu art, without learning or experimenting with different applications, you're only going to be able to defend yourself against that naginata-weilding crackhead who hangs out at the main train station.

When you are able to use Kata and techniques strictly and exactly, the variations and the responces to every situation will flow naturally.

If you see things as 'well if he did this i could do this' you will not reach the same level as someone who just accepts that a technique of a koryu was created for BATTLE FIELD effectivness and therefor MUST work, if it didn't it would have been thrown away and not used. If you comit to learning techniques exactly and thouroughly eventually the principles of these techniques come out when they need to and can be applied to nearly any attack. Automated responces do not produce instinctive reations - just thought reactions, these are alot slower.

This is why i am questioning the videos, to teach something in such a loose way will create confusion and may result in a less proficient fighter IMO.


Chris, obviously, has no idea of this and is simply a troll, or has been doing taijutsu for two years without moving from where he started.

please see above!

Thanks for all the comments saying that i am a troll but if you consider my resopnces then maybe the closed view and resport to name calling could be avoided.

thanks people,
Chris
:)

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Whats the difference in (intensive) and non intensive training?

Were you just not trying of did you only go to one class every month for the ones not labelled?

ta

Matt Boxall

[chris davis 200]

Matt,

By intensive i mean 5 days a week with weekends days off, from about 5.30 to about 10.00. (dunno if you think that is intensive? personal opinion really)

Non intensive, 2 times a week (maybe 3) 2.5 - 3 hours per session.

I am extremely commited to MA and train with FULL comitment at every session and when practiceing at home.

Cheers
Chris

[monkeyboy_ssj]

Cool.

For someone who is training psychically a lot more than I do (I train 15 hours a week), by posting this thread it shows some lack of development in the mental side of martial arts.

Actually that’s a bit harsh, but still.

Ask yourself this "what have I gained by posting these questions?"

It just causes ill feelings rather than helping each other on our quest through the martial arts. Remember, martial arts is a journey, not a destination.

Cheers mate

Matt Boxall

[Mike Williams]

Aw c'mon - it's no different to the hundreds of posts in baffling Budo, along the lines of "check this website - does this look like good budo?" or "do these katas look like a joke to you?".

The difference is that now the target is somebody dear to the hearts of a number of e-budo members.

Why shouldn't the Bujinkan (or any other school for that matter) be subjected to the same scrutiny?

The videos are in the public domain - public criticism is entirely legitimate, as is rebuffing the criticism. As long as exchanges are polite, open and informative, where's the harm?

Cheers,

Mike

[chris davis 200]

For someone who is training psychically a lot more than I do (I train 15 hours a week), by posting this thread it shows some lack of development in the mental side of martial arts.

Thanks! but i do not agree - i have given good reasoning for my opinions and have responded with intellegence and compitance.


Ask yourself this "what have I gained by posting these questions?"

I feel that i have gained a lot from this post - an insight into the feelings of bujinkan practitioners regarding their soke, an insight into the reasoning behind Bujinkan movement, an insight into the reasons for the numerous video productions, an insight into what the soke teaches him organisation, an insight into how bujinkan approach questioning of their art and soke! to name but a few things!

I would say that my thread has been worthwhile from a personal perspective.


Why shouldn't the Bujinkan (or any other school for that matter) be subjected to the same scrutiny?

Indeed.


If you don't have anything constructive to say, then don't post.

Why not, by examining our arts (good AND bad) we under them more deeply.


This is by far the most interesting thread in a long time

thankyou
this thread has created a good descussion which is infact surley the purpose of these Forums.

Thanks
Chris
:)

[matthew18]

hi

so chris davis only studied bujinkan for 2 years?
well obviously not enough time to understand what Hatsumi sencei or any other shihan teachers.
Suppose Hatsumi sencei doesnt need people standing up for him, if u dont like what he teachers, u think its rubbish. so what.

I can remember a shihan making a point of some sword masters in japan, saying how Soke draws the sword to an angle and how it is so wrong and inperfect. while the sword masters cut their thumbs doing things they thought where the 'right' way.

Anyway Bujinkan is very open, i advise you go and see a shihan or soke himself, i am sure u will be pleased with what u see.

regards

Matthew Morgan
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
Matthew Morgan

[chris davis 200]

Peter Holden

please read the entire post and then give your opinion - I have been giving very good reasons for my thoughts and not just coming out with insults and pointless comments!!!


Suppose Hatsumi sencei doesnt need people standing up for him, if u dont like what he teachers, u think its rubbish. so what.

again please re read the entire thread - things such as this ahave been covered in my previous posts!


I can remember a shihan making a point of some sword masters in japan, saying how Soke draws the sword to an angle and how it is so wrong and inperfect. while the sword masters cut their thumbs doing things they thought where the 'right' way.

I see questioning as the best way of understanding and this shihan has every right to question what he sees, just as i do!

We are going over old ground.

cheers
Chris

[kimq]

So Chris, are your questions answered?

[chris davis 200]

So Chris, are your questions answered?

I would say that on the 'why does he do that?' front - no - just 'because he is a soke' and 'Because he doesn't re-shoot his videos' dont really answer alot to be honest.

On the 'how do Bujinkan guys take questioning of their art' - yes - I have been responded to by very civil people that are willing to look at what i have said and try to explain it, but also people that are expremely petty! guess you get that anywhere!

Have my responces been reasonable and created thought about your art?

I hope so - this is healthy for any budoka.

Thankyou
Chris

[The Tengu]

This is an interesting thread.

I've always noticed the mistakes Hatsumi Sensei has made in some of the Quest videos. Some of the videos have mistakes, some of them are perfectly executed throughout the entire session.

I had guessed that they were done in one take. Why? Any of the mistakes I saw were small, and one kata could have easily been edited out and replaced with "perfect" re-takes.

So when I first noticed this, I was bummed. But then I realized that this proves that Hatsumi Sensei is a man. He's human. Humans make mistakes. There must be a reason why he chose not to remove those moments from the videos.

I began training in the Bujinkan when I was 12. Any Hatsumi stories were described to me as god-like and mystical and all of that stuff. Sometimes, they still are described that way to me. :) Mistakes on tape prove that even the grandmaster does not do everything perfectly all the time.

¤¤¤¤ happens! It's just what we do at the time that it does happen that determines whether or not things stay shitty. If you get hit in a fight and stumble, well that's ¤¤¤¤. Do you give up or keep going? Hatsumi Sensei keeps going, and wants us to do the same in our lives. Hatsumi made mistakes on the videos, but that did not stop him from making something of the technique. Lemonade out of lemons, right?

Okay so back on topic... I realized that each tape could have been produced in such a way that it would portray Sensei as being perfect on each video. I feel that for a lot of people, it is harder for us to show our flaws than our perfections. I appreciate this point when I see those videos that have mistakes.

I still learn from these tapes, and I still learn from the mistakes too. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be caught on tape making a mistake for everyone on the Net to criticize, so I will try not to make the same mistake that Sensei did on the video. ;)

At the US Tai Kai this year Soke taught for three days straight, and I noticed only one time when Hatsumi Sensei could have made a mistake. I was not sure if it was a mistake at the time because he still made something out of it. I saw one mistake by a 70-year-old man in three days of teaching fighting techniques to 550 people on stage in front of cameras and bright lights, after flying to St. Louis over the Pacific Ocean from Japan.

Perhaps the videos should have been more polished, but I appreciate them much more the way that they are now, and I do not have any doubts in Soke's abilities.

[paolo_italy]

Originally posted by chris davis 200


I would say that on the 'why does he do that?' front - no - just 'because he is a soke' and 'Because he doesn't re-shoot his videos' dont really answer alot to be honest.



To summarize, Chris, I think the answer is: ask the Hombu or the Shihans who took part to the footage.

Otherwise, you will always get personal answers aka "opinions".

IMHO I'm right! :D

[kimq]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
Have my responces been reasonable and created thought about your art?

I think you give yourself a little more credit than what you deserve. From what I've read so far, the resulting thoughts from this thread are anything but quality and useful.

[Tamdhu]

I my (and my teachers) experience training in classical ryuha a technique is a technique and when demonstrating the technique for instruction it should ALWAYS be the same.

This raises a very interesting point in Hatsumi Soke's training. You will never see him demonstrate the same way twice, because he is not teaching techniques, and hasn't, probably, since the very early eighties. The shihan in Japan, by my understanding, are there to teach the basics and 'techniques', but training with Hatsumi Soke is like drinking from a firehose. Hatsumi's teaching is primarily, though not exclusively, directed at those who have grasped the basics, and points beyond techniques to principles, states of mind and god knows what all else.

Otherwise, I've said what I have to say and hope, if you're currently training in Japan, that you'll take the time and effort to look at some training at hombu or with the shihan.

I'm curious to know who you trained with for those two years, but in a way it doesn't matter. Two years of Bujinkan training five days a week will not really get you much further than two years of Bujinkan training two days a week, in my honest opinion, and no instructor in the world is going to get a student past his or her own preconceptions in that amount of time.

[bencole]

This is an important thread, imo. Certainly as Budoka we need to be willing to ask these hard questions and find answers to them. Granted, the question could have been more "nicely worded" :-D but the facts are still the same: Hatsumi-sensei releases videos that DO contain "mistakes."

The question we need to ask is "Why?"

Surely he could have re-recorded the takes to make them "perfect." Would that have accomplished anything more than releasing them as is? Would it create this false sense that Soke is always perfect?
Would it create people who think that there is only one way to do things?
Would it misrepresent the essence of the art?

The question is not whether mistakes are made, but what one does AFTER the mistakes! That is a fundamentally different view of Budo than a lot of other arts.

That is probably the most difficult thing about training in the Bujinkan. The day that Soke calls you out to the center of the circle to demonstrate. Your heart is pounding, all your seniors (and your Soke!) are observing you....and you choke! Big time! You feel like an idiot. Life is over!!!!

And then you realize, wait a minute, life isn't over! That's what training is for! Screw the "audience"! I'm going to keep going until I figure it out! I'm going to do this!

And then you do! You keep going! And you grow in your understanding, through your mistakes and your successes!

I personally know of a green belt, who, after seeing a mistake on a video by Hatsumi-sensei, never returned to training! WOW! Talk about someone who shall surely be let down a lot in life! He surely needs the crutch of knowing that his "master" is perfect in every way! His needs were better served elsewhere, and it is probably best that he chose a different path. The Bujinkan is not for everyone.


Originally posted by chris davis 200
I my (and my teachers) experience training in classical ryuha a technique is a technique and when demonstrating the technique for instruction it should ALWAYS be the same.

That's definitely one difference between the Bujinkan and many other arts. The "technique" is never the same; but the "principle" of the technique is. It takes YEARS of exposure to understand that, so it is not surprising that people with significant experience in other arts (even our own) cannot "see it." I'm sorry you didn't see it, Chris.

As many people know, I used to keep a very detailed diary. Altogether it is several hundred pages long (TYPED!). But as time went on, I started to notice that I couldn't see a difference between anything that Soke was doing. Every technique was "different" but the same principle was driving everything, and thus I couldn't differentiate between them when trying to transcribe the technique. In short, an entire session of training would be transcribed in one or two sentences. Kinda sounds like a "densho" don't you think? A few key facts that embody the entire essence of the technique. Hm....

I actually find it somewhat humorous to read that "it should ALWAYS be the same." Any practitioner who views the actual scrolls of a Koryu school will notice that there is a lot of room for interpretation. No where does it state, "the foot should be placed at 44.8 degrees with the knee pointing at 44.3 degrees with the bend in the knee at 125 degrees, the arm up in Kamae at 89 degrees to the body, with the wrist aligned at..." well, you get the point. Even those who insist that things must always be "the same" cannot replicate things in precisely the same fashion. Hatsumi-sensei merely takes that irrefutable point (regardless of the art) to its limits--pushing the limits of the principle by breaking the form.

An important consideration is that Soke is constantly testing people, and he is constantly working on different things. In that video, for example, he could be focused on "trapping the opponent in the kukan" rather than "being in intense shinkengata mode and always covering your heart with your sword." Also of note, that because the entire filming session is impromptu, he is instantly creating things. Soke gives openings to the Shihan to see if they take them. He is, in fact, testing them ON TAPE as well as testing himself ON TAPE. Some like Mike might consider this "inappropriate" or "unprofessional" but for those in the Bujinkan, it is most enlightening! And amazing to watch. Is the instructional video to instruct the viewer? The participants? Both? Neither? One of the many koan that Soke lays at our feet on an almost daily basis....

Back to the point about being in complete shinkengata mode all of the time, Soke purposely does NOT work on everything at the same time. Why? Because people get "lost" in certain things. He would rather people focus only on one part at a time. Then they must learn by themselves how to bring it all together into a cohesive whole.

For example, when talking with a Japanese Shihan about how he practiced, he said that he would choose one thing to work on for the entire practice session with Hatsumi-sensei--just working on distancing, or timing, or spinework, or whatever. Rather than trying to do everything, he focused on one thing at a time and was able to improve. I started applying this same principle to my own training--working ONLY on spinework, for example, for 9 months! I wasn't concerned with anything else! To try to practice it all would be futile. Soke also uses this method in his teaching (and on the videos).

I'm sorry that Chris thinks Soke's Budo was no good. No amount of me explaining will change that. The only thing I can do is encourage him to visit Hatsumi-sensei or one of the Shihan and check it out. There IS a reason why thousand upon thousands of people have dropped whatever art they were doing in the past and immediately became Bujinkan practitioners. It obviously is not because everyone is an idiot, or inexperienced, or whatever other explanation you can think of.

Hatsumi-sensei is amazing--he is a Jazz performer--and if he lets those who are interested in his art to experience some of that mastery (mistakes and all) in a video format, the more power to him. If he turns off other people from the art with his "slackness" or "lack of precision" or whatever, the world will somehow keep on spinning. The Bujinkan is large enough.

What we need most of all is people who sincerely want to LEARN what the Bujinkan is; not what they hope it to be.

Regards,

-ben

[Mike Williams]

Second that - good post.

Cheers,

Mike

[kimq]

Ah, something that's quality and useful.

[pete lohstroh]

While I don't agree with Chris' perspective, I found his posts to be thought provoking. Did they possess quality and usefulness? Only if you like to think about things from perspectives that are not your own. I do, and it looks like a few others on e-budo do too. Very revealing!

I can't say much about the quality of the videos . I've seen and enjoyed a few. The sinister techno music on some angers my wife. This makes me like it even more! The people in the Bujinkan I respect most would never dream of answering a post (except Ben, of course!) yet, they are the most qualified to do so. Pity but there's too much truth-dilution on the web to get to the heart of the matter though Ben is patiently quixotic enough to try!

[Jim_Jude]

Originally posted by chris davis 200
I recently saw several Videos of Masaki Hatsumi, demonstrating Yari as well as Shuriken and Unarmed methods.

I was thoroughly amazed at how BAD at these things he was!

In one scene he was surrounded by about 10 of his sempai, he was throwing shuriken at them and did not hit ONE, he was also throwing Powder and one exploded in his own face!!! he then attampted to role of and got stuck in a hedge!! It was comical!!

Some of the unarmed stuff was ok - but was just Basic JuJutsu as far as i could see and was different every time a different sempai showed it! Surley if this was traditional or structured Bujutsu the Techniques would be the same each time you did them??

The yari and sword work was a mocery of Bujutsu!
i have practiced Ono ha itto ryu Kenjutsu, Tenshin Hyoho Kukami Shin Ryu Bo Jutsu and Naginata, Enshin Ryu Iaido and Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu iaido. The sword work that Hatsumi desplayed left him open to attack at every point in his technique, he did not cover his centre line and his cuts where terrible! At one point he drops the Yari and pretends that it was intended - he also acidently digs it into the floor!

I had studied Bujinkan (2years) and found it to be very modern and not holding any of the key principles of weapon combat. I have seen many very good Bujinkan practitioners on the Unarmed front but after studying traditional styles, i have seen that this is just Basic JJ with a slightly different twist!

Also why does Bujinkan choose to go above 10th dan? The dan grading system was invented by the founder of Judo and worked fine as it was. If someone could clarify this that would be good. thanks

Not trying to slay Bujinkan Practitioners, just wondering what people think about Hatsumi and Bukjinkan? My observations are scary considering his popularity!!!

Thanks
Chris

:rolleyes:

Okay, first off, I got my Togakure tape out of the closet & watched it. The four shuriken throws that I could identify as shuriken, one you couldn't see it land, & the other three were head shots, one in the face & one looked like it landed right between the eyes. I don't know what vid you're watching.... plus, I've actually seen Hatsumi-sensei throw training shuriken. Trust me, he can throw. I didn't bother counting the egg metsubishi throws & as for the exploding in the face, black pepper was the most popular metsubishi, as you can imagine. It doesn't act like talcum powder, in case you were curious.

Second, who did you train with in the Bujinkan? since you didn't answer when someone else asked.

Third, Paolo stated:"Once I read somewhere that if one has problems with the bujinkan, then he should just find someone at the appropriate level and challenge him."
You stated:"I Have and wasn't suprised - how high should i go? the guy was 5th Dan. dismiss what i saw if you will thats fine."

Who was this Godan that you supposedly challenged? I'm sure if this person actually exists, someone here can find him & ask his opinion on this incident.

Fourth, I find it amusing that you think your "Observations" of a video would be scary. You've obviously never trained with Soke, so you really have no idea as to his level of skill. You watched a commercial. It's like watching Walker:Texas Ranger & saying that he sucks because of something you see, or watching Blood Sport & saying that Van Dammit kicks ass because he beat up Bolo Yeung(who kicks ass, by the way).

The whole post has an inflamatory air about it. Coming onto a Ninpo board & stating your opinion that a leading Soke has terrible skills according to your esteemed opinion from watching one video. This just smacks of..... TROLL.

[matthew18]

hi

nice post, thats a point i have been trying to get over without being too offensive.

Also i want to point out a lot of people say how the Bujinkan arts should be questioned, yeap i totally agree, but by going about it through the proper means. Not on here, find yourself a shihan or shodoshi, they should answer your questions and point you into the right direction, considering what you are looking for.

No offence meant in any of my posts, if people did i apologise.

regards,

Matthew Morgan
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

[Jim_Jude]

I guess that's what comes from living in the Information Age. People think that they can buy a video or do a web search & that somehow replaces personally earned knowledge & wisdom.

[PwarYuex]

What was the video called?
Personally, I have seen many Hatsumi-Sensei videos (as well as many other non-Bujinkan instructors) and I have never seen a dodge Hatsumi video.
What was the name of it, just so we can watch or stay clear?

[Peter Holden]

First up, thank you Ben for such a good post. Much better than my, now deleted, drunken outburst :up:


Originally posted by Jim_Jude
Okay, first off, I got my Togakure tape out of the closet & watched it. The four shuriken throws that I could identify as shuriken, one you couldn't see it land, & the other three were head shots, one in the face & one looked like it landed right between the eyes. I don't know what vid you're watching.... plus, I've actually seen Hatsumi-sensei throw training shuriken. Trust me, he can throw. I didn't bother counting the egg metsubishi throws & as for the exploding in the face, black pepper was the most popular metsubishi, as you can imagine. It doesn't act like talcum powder, in case you were curious.

To be honest Jim I didn't think much of that sequence myself. Let's not forget that the main point of the video which shows the soto tonko kata was exellent and Hatsumi-sensei's variations of the basics were IMO inspirational.

As for the scene demonstrating Happo Kirigakure (Disappearing into the fog in all directions), as I said, I think it could have been done better. But here is the question, the explanation of the technique I have is that when the defender is surrounded he throws shuriken to the front and powder to the rear concealed in the resulting fog he throws shuriken in all directions before escaping.

Is the powder supposed to be thrown away? That wouldn't create a "fog", is letting a couple go off where you stand intentional?

Anyway I don't think Hatsumi-sensei throws blinding powder very often but you are right in that his shuriken throwing is excellent and he does hit his targets in the video. Anyone else see the SRS video where he throws business cards like shuriken and his the three people right between the eyes? Perfect shot every time !!

Anyway Don ;) although I think your original purpose here was just to troll maybe an interesting discussion has developed from it after all.

[Jim_Jude]

I just remembered, when I was in Japan last, I "played" with my friend Ryuichiro (he has a sandan in Daito-ryu among other things). He asked what I trained in & I told him Bujinkan & he went out & bought the "What is Budo?" tape. He had an absolute fit, I actually said that Hatsumi-sensei's waza were "beautiful" & if he didn't live in Fukuoka, he'd start training. I refered him to George Ohashi, maybe there was a dojo down there.

Goes to show you that "opinions" vary, neh? :p