whacking a tire

[Bruce Mitchell]

Okay,
So here's the question. Is the practice of striking a tire or bundle of sticks regularly done in any sword schools? Most kendo dojo I have visited have some form of datotsu dummy to practice datotsu-dosa on, but this seems to differ in purpose from the all out power that I have seen used when striking the tire.

I have only seen the tire whacking in Aikido dojo, and have heard the practise refered to as "Seishin Tanren", or training to develop the Tanden (center). Back when I practiced Aikido, I was told that it was for developing correct te-no-uchi.

So my real question is, does any one outside the Aikido community engage in or endorse this type of tire abuse?

Your's truly,
Ex-tire whacker
Bruce Mitchell

[zanglerska]

i too am an ex tire-wacker, and i study tantojutsu. i also know that the kenjutsu students had to tire wack. i found it usefull to help develop my muscle memory.

[fifthchamber]

Hi all...
I have a few articles that show the Jigen Ryu and those Ryuha that are linked to it and from it (ie..'Nodachi Jigen Ryu' et al) practising a type of 'stick whacking' where groups of sticks are bundled together and secured in either a vertical or horizontal position (And at both ends) and the trainee then 'attacks' these sticks with a bokuto or another stick...As I have not trained in Jigen Ryu I have no details apart from the photo's in the articles and should not venture any theories as to the why's and where-fore's of the practise...
I also believe that Mr. Lowry has run a mention of his tyre practise in (I believe..) 'Autumn Lightning' and so the practise could be quite common in Japan (Or amongst the Koryu groups at least), maybe there are some Shinkage Ryu students here that can respond?
I use Tameshigiri as cutting practise but have only recently moved in to somewhere with a garden and have not had the nerve to hang a tyre up on the tree here...Maybe I should do?
HTH..
Abayo.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Thank you for the Jigen-ryu lead. I will see if I can find out any more about them. I also recall the mention of giving the tire a crack in Mr. Lowry's book, but I seem to recall that he also has practiced Aikido, so I was not sure where the radial rebound fit into his practice.

[Charlie Kondek]

I slashed a tire, once, but that was because a bunch of SMERSH agents were trying to run me down in a Citroen in the Balkans. Naturally, I sidestepped, cut the front passenger's side tire, and sent them screaming to their dooms over a cliff.

Okay, I'm kidding - on the serious side, I have heard of kendo dojo doing this!

[Earl Hartman]

There was a tire dummy in the riot squad kendo dojo where I practiced in in Japan, and I would pracice against it. We did iaijutsu in the same dojo, and my iaijutsu teacher had me do nukitsuke against it using a bokken in a saya so I could learn how to really properly hit something as hard as I could. It was really excellent practice for proper use of the hips, proper drawing mechanics, and tenouchi.

BTW, "seishin tanren" means "forging (tanren) the spirit (seishin)", not training the "tanden". Tanren (forging) and tanden (lower abdomen) are two different words, although they do sound somewhat similar.

Anyway, I suppose it doesn't matter what you hit, so long as it has some give and doesn't damage the bokken. Really hitting stuff is really good practice, especially for iai.

[Bruce Mitchell]

Thank you for the information Hartman Sensei,
Thank you also for the clarification on the Japanese term's.

I guess my next question is, what's more important, striking the tire full force to develop power, or striking hard and trying to prevent the bokken from rebounding to develop control? If both, which should come first (although it seems pretty self evident that control is more important than power)? I am not so much questioning training methods, but trying to discern the intended prupose for this training device.

Thank you to everyone who has replied thus far.

[Earl Hartman]

You're welcome, but don't call me sensei. I'm not.

If you don't actually learn how to hit something, you can never really develop the focus, power, and control needed to do iai really well. My mechanics were bad and my nukitsuke was weak, so my teacher had me hit the tire. You cannot generate power without proper mechanics, so actually hitting something develops everything: power, control, focus and fundamentals. The reason for this is simple: if you hit the tire too hard with bad mechanics, the tenouchi especially, you will hurt yourself, usually your wrist. So you learn crucial things like generating power from the hips and proper hasuji (edge presentation).

As far as which comes first, I don't know, but since you can't generate any real power without correct technique, learning the correct technique comes first, it seems to me. After that, it's just repetition to develop the proper muscles.

Also, I would advise against doing this without proper instruction.

[J. A. Crippen]

To follow Mr. Hartman's statement with an opinion of my own, I'd mention that the idea is not to have your sensei watching over you while you whack a tire for hours on end. The same thing is comparable to eg striking a makiwara for karateka. The idea here is that your sensei will give you some things to think about and watch for while you practice your striking (or in this case, cutting). You pay attention to these things, and maybe with a couple thousand reps you get better. At some point sensei watches you again and decides where your next focus should be. Repeat until your sensei can't find anything else to suggest!

Practicing alone with no instruction will only teach you certain rudiments, like how strike hard and not hurt your wrists. That's perhaps useful but you may unknowingly be building up bad habits that you will later have to unlearn, like rising up on the balls of your feet before the strike, telegraphing your movements, etc.