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Nathan Scott
22nd August 2000, 00:16
Hi,

Mr. Tolsen brought up the name "Hakuhokai Daito ryu" in another message on e-budo. I've also heard of a Okabayshi Shogen in affiliation with this branch.

For the record, can we get some tempered comments on the lineage of this branch, and what kind of connection it has with the Daito ryu as transmitted by Takeda Sokaku?

If we can keep it clean, this will stay up for future reference!

Regards,

Richard A Tolson
22nd August 2000, 07:34
Nathan,
First, the last name is Tolson (derived from Son of the Toll Keeper), not Tolsen. :)
Second, The Hakuho Kai is a branch of the Daito-ryu founded by Okabayashi Shogen. It is based in Osaka, Japan.
Okabayashi Sensei studied under both Hisa Takuma and Takeda Tokimune. He received his kyoju dairi (teaching license) from Hisa Takuma and his shihan-level license from Takeda Tokimune. He also received a menkyo in Ono-ha Itto-ryu (Sokaku-den) from Takeda Tokimune.
BTW, Okabayashi Sensei will be here in the U.S. doing a seminar for the Hakuho Kai study group at the Itten Dojo (Enola, PA) in September.
Hope this helps!

Robert Wolfe
22nd August 2000, 12:58
Following is some additional information on the Daito-ryu Hakuho Kai seminars planned for September in New York City and Pennsylvania, courtesy of Mr. Robin Brown of Hakuho Kai New York:

Okabayashi Shogen will return to the New York area for a Training/Lecture Weekend on Saturday, September 9th and Sunday, September 10th, with an additional training session in Pennsylvania on Monday, September 11th, 2000.

Accompanying Okabayashi Sensei will be Hakuho Kai Fukuoka branch chief Shige Ozeki.

This year's program, our fifth annual event, will include seminars to commemorate the new millennium and a lecture in which Okabayashi Sensei will reflect on his 11-year
training with Tokimune Takeda and Hisa Takuma. He will contrast his training with these masters to the challenges of training today. Okabayashi Sensei's comments will help us direct our goals and maximize the benefits of training in a traditional martial art in the 21st century.

All martial artists will enjoy and benefit from this unique opportunity to share Okabayashi Sensei's insights and stories of training with two of the greatest martial artists of the 20th century. A question and answer period will follow the lecture.

NYC Training Schedule:

Saturday, September 9, 2000 (2:15 - 5:00 PM)
Sunday, September 10, 2000 (2:15 - 5:00 PM)

Shin Budo Kai Dojo
425 W 14th St, NYC
(212) 691-1378

NYC Lecture:

Saturday, September 9, 2000 (8:00 PM)
(Location to be announced; please call for info)

Fees: $55 one day; $20 lecture only; $100 both days + lecture

Phone Registration by September 5th:
(201) 610-0086 (add $5 for late registration)

Pennsylvania Schedule:

Monday, September 11, 2000 (6:30 - 9:00 PM)

Itten Dojo
4425 Valley Rd, Suite 300
Enola, PA 17025-1444
(717) 728-8871
itten_dojo@hotmail.com

Fee: $45 one day
(Please call or e-mail for PA seminar registration flier.)

Nathan Scott
22nd August 2000, 18:09
Mr. Tolson,

Sorry about the name(s) spelling, I had typed up the post in a bit of a haste.

Thanks for the info and seminar information.

I'd love to have someone post a review of the seminar here if some of our list-ka go to it.

Does anyone happen to know about when the Hakuhokai was founded, and are there authorized dojo's or study groups in the US or elsewhere?

Regards,

Robert Wolfe
22nd August 2000, 18:47
Mr. Scott --

I will forward your request for Hakuho Kai historical information to the people who have the details. In the meantime, I can provide a partial answer to the question of dojo locations. As I understand it, there are a dozen affiliated dojo in Japan, with a combined enrollment of about 250 people.

Outside of Japan, there is a branch dojo in both Italy and France, and there are two authorized dojo in the United States, in New York City and Milan, Michigan. The class at the Itten Dojo (near Harrisburg, PA) is organized as a "study group," since we don't yet have any members graded in the Hakuho Kai. Let me first check to see that I have current e-mail addresses and phone numbers, and I'll post contact information for the affiliated dojo.

I'll be glad to provide a report on Okabayashi Sensei's visit. Following is a report on a seminar we enjoyed earlier this month, that was conducted by Rod and Mitsuko (Hashimoto) Uhler, two of Okabayashi Sensei's senior students.

Daito-ry and Ono-ha Itt-ry at the Itten Dj

On August 5th and 6th, 2000, the staff and students of the Itten Dj in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, were honored to host Rod and Mitsuko Uhler for seminars addressing Dait-ry aikijjutsu (Hakuh Kai) and Ono-ha Itt-ry (Sokaku-den) kenjutsu. The Uhlers currently live in Osaka, Japan, and are direct students of Okabayashi Shgen, the founder and chief instructor of the Hakuh Kai and the Kobu Kai (the sub-organization within the Hakuh Kai devoted to kenjutsu).

For the Saturday classes, the Uhlers focused training on the concepts of maai (distancing) and kuzushi (unbalancing). Training began with a series of unique stretching and warm-up exercises which, while not an "official" part of the Hakuh Kai curriculum, were new and very interesting to the attendees. Next came kote-shirabei ("wrist research"), a drill in which participants work their way around a circle of their fellow students, applying a set a basic techniques to get a feel of the differences in effect on (and the limits of flexibility in) their partners. The drill is at once a means to augment combat effectiveness and increase the safety of practice.

The Uhlers started the core of the training with one of the hallmarks of the Hakuh Kai: bushi-no-hkoh (the body mechanics and method of walking that were employed by the bushi in ancient times). Unlike modern peoples, who walk with a swinging of the arms that places shoulders out-of-line with hips, the bushi were trained from the time of their first steps to walk with shoulders and hips in alignment vertically, allowing a sword to be drawn from any point in their gait. This manner of walking and maintenance of what Rod Uhler termed "the internal lines" of the body has profound implications for technique. The Hakuh Kai believes that adaptation of classical arts to modern body mechanics destroys a priceless heritage, and Okabayashi Sensei is determined to preserve Dait-ry and Ono-ha Itt-ry in an unadulterated form.

Next, the Uhlers taught an introduction to Ippon-dori, and worked through a series of techniques that illustrated the effects on combat of variations in the distance at which opponents engage. The students learned different means to close or control the distance, and in the process became acquainted with a variety of pins and atemi-waza. The students also began to catch glimpses of the staggering depth of the Dait-ry.

In the afternoon, the focus of training shifted to kuzushi, with a series of idori (seated) techniques and attention to sensing the degree of balance of the opponent. As we transitioned to standing techniques, the majority of waza taught were fundamental, but there were occasional oku-waza (secret techniques) presented that engendered a fair degree of astonishment throughout the ranks.

The women of the dj took particular and rather sadistic, I'd have to say pleasure in watching Mitsuko-san bounce various men off the mat. She had most of us whimpering at one point or another. Come to think of it, she seemed to be grinning most of the time herself...

On Sunday, participants picked up bokken (some of them for the first time) for an historic event: the first time the Ono-ha Itt-ry kenjutsu preserved by the Kobu Kai has been shared with anyone outside the organization, anywhere in the world.

We began with some suburi (cutting exercises) designed to introduce some of the basic cuts and footwork. When I say "some," I mean a couple of thousand cuts in the course of about half an hour. Mr. Uhler had planned more, but Okabayashi Sensei (God bless him) suggested the intended diet might be a little rich.

Most of the senior kenjutsu students from the Itten Dj brought proper, Itt-ry style bokken, figuring that the size and shape of the wooden sword could be critical to the kata we'd be learning. These bokken have a differently-shaped tsuka (handle) than the bokken we normally use in the Tenshin-ry, and they rest at a slightly different "groove" in the hands. Within minutes, we all had gigantic blisters lying a fraction of an inch from our carefully developed calluses. Following the first break, the Tenshin-ryu seniors were readily identifiable by the athletic tape wrapping their left hands...

Watching the Uhlers demonstrate the kata and kumitachi they presented was pure joy. I've seen some impressive kenjutsu, and theirs is consistently fine: powerful, precise, and just exuding spirit and aggressiveness.

In the section of training addressing kawase (avoiding or dodging), students were required to move in such a way as to cause their opponent to miss a full-power cut by an inch or less, leaving the opponent utterly vulnerable to the counter.

As if there wasn't enough tension in the dj already, the techniques the Uhlers employed to convey the principle of suriage (sliding up) were the most aggressive of the day, leading more than one novice participant to the painful realization that a bokken is a dangerous weapon in its own right.

Training concluded with the kata Kobushi-no-Harai, which embodied some fairly complex footwork, kawase, and a couple of suriage. It was a very dynamic finale to a day which flew by in a blink.

Overall, the weekend was one of the finest we have enjoyed, and the degree of consideration and physical preparation the Uhlers put into their planning was thoroughly evident throughout. And it was just the appetizer Okabayashi Sensei himself will visit our dj for the first time the evening of September 11th, 2000, during his upcoming North American seminar tour. Attendance of this seminar will be by invitation, but persons wishing to attend can request an invitation by contacting Robert Wolfe at "itten_dojo@hotmail.com".

Nathan Scott
22nd August 2000, 21:55
Mr. Wolfe,

Thank you for the reply and review. It sounds pretty interesting.

I did notice reference to Tenshin ryu, and your email address indicates that you may be part of a dojo under Mr. Lovret's group. Is there any affiliation between the Hakuhokai Daito ryu and Mr. Lovret's group, or is your participation simply coincidental? Just trying to get a feel for the Hakuhokai style.

I look forward to reports from your upcoming seminar.

Regards,

Robert Wolfe
23rd August 2000, 02:15
Mr. Scott --

There is ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION between Mr. Lovret and the Hakuho Kai.

The members of our dojo found out about the Hakuho Kai by chance, when Rod Uhler visited one of our classes while home from Japan for Christmas several years ago. We developed a friendship, and several of our members had a chance subsequently to attend one of Okabayashi Sensei's seminars in New York. Two of the people who'd gone to New York started to make occasional trips to New York to train with Robin Brown and, after about a year or so, received permission to start our Hakuho Kai study group.

Nathan Scott
23rd August 2000, 02:28
Thank you for your reply Mr. Wolfe.

Regards,

Jyrki
23rd August 2000, 09:12
Hi,

I asked about Okabayashi Shogen sensei from Takumakai's Umei Shinichiro sensei. This is what I heard.

Okabayashi sensei started Daitoryu in Daibukan dojo. Daibukan is in Nishinomiya city near Osaka. His teacher was Oogami Kenkiti, who is one of Hisa Takuma's students. Maybe he has kyojudairi but I'm not sure. When Takumakai started, Oogami Kenkiti belonged to Takumakai. You can watch his techniques in the old 70's NHK Daito ryu video. After this video was made, he left Takumakai, but he had good relationship with Takumakai. When ever Takumakai had a big event, he joined in with his students. However, suddenly he did not join these events any more. To my knowledge this was because his students left him and joined Takumakai at every Takumakai's event. Okabayashi sensei was one of them. There were also many others who are now active in Takumakai.

When Okabayashi sensei joined Takumakai, he had already good skills in Daitoryu. He learned from Hisa Takuma only for a short time. However because he had good skills he got Kyojudairi almost same time with Kawabe Takeshi sensei. Kawabe sensei is Takumakai's head teacher (and also my teacher). At that time Hisa sensei was too old to move smoothly. Okabayashi sensei got a letter of introduction from Hisa sensei, and went to Hokkaido to study from Takeda Tokimune Sensei. He stayed in Hokkaido for a long time ( I don't know the exact time). After this he visited often Takeda Tokimune sensei in Hokkaido and studied his style a lot. In addition to this he learned Karate for a long time. With all this he formed his own personal style.

When Okabayashi came back to Takumakai, he was one of the best teachers of Takumakai in Osaka. Many people wanted to learn Daitoryu from him. His style was quite different from the other teachers of Takumakai; Kawabe sensei, Kobayashi sensei, and even Mori sensei. His style was very hard and straight. However, nobody complained, because he is a very good teacher. If somebody know Takumakai's Araki sensei, he was among the first students and also the best student of Okabayashi sensei. Umei sensei has been in Okabayashi sensei's house several times to learn Daitoryu from him. Every person in Takumakai believed that his style and his explanation of techniques were the real Daitoryu.

One day, ten years ago, Umei sensei got a seminar announcement of instructors' seminar from Takumakai office. This announcement said that a special seminar will be held in Wakimachi, Shikoku by Chiba sensei. Chiba sensei is a student of Nakatsu Heizaburo. Nakatsu Heizaburo sensei studied Daitoryu at Asahi Shinbun dojo with Takuma Hisa sensei. Their teachers where, as you know, Ueshiba Morihei sensei and Takeda Sokaku sensei. Most teachers in Takumakai didn't know Chiba sensei at that time. Umei sensei didn't know either. He knew only that Kawabe sensei learn's from an old teacher in Shikoku. All the members who joined this seminar were very surprised. Chiba sensei's style and techniques were strange and unique, but very familiar. Just like deja vu. Just like Sokaku Takeda.


Jyrki Rytil
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu Takumakai, Helsinki
http://personal.inet.fi/urheilu/fudoshin/2index.htm

mithrandir
24th August 2000, 02:21
Hi all,

Jyrki:
>His teacher was Oogami Kenkiti, who is one of Hisa >Takuma's students. Maybe he has kyojudairi but I'm not >sure.

Ohgami Kenkichi Sensei is indeed Kyoju Dairi, and 8th Dan. Both received from Hisa Sensei. Supposedly Hisa Sensei did not give anyone a higher rank than 8th because he himself was only 8th Dan (received from the Aikikai I believe!).

From what I understand, and please someone correct my if I'm wrong, but he gave people two sets or ranks, the "traditional" ie Kyoju Dairi, derived from his Menkyo Kaiden, and a judo style Dan ranking, derived from his 8th Dan.

Jyrki:
>After this video was made, he left Takumakai, but he had >good relationship with Takumakai. When ever Takumakai had >a big event, he joined in with his students. However, >suddenly he did not join these events any more. To my >knowledge this was because his students left him and >joined Takumakai at every Takumakai's event

I understand that this was due to personality "differences" between himself and the other Takumakai heads. Too bad really, I'd like to exchange with and meet some other Takumakai people as we're all from the same root (Hisa).

I'm curious, Jyrki, but do you guys practice the Hiden Mokoruku techniques as taught by Tokimune Sensei?? Hisa never taught these, and the Takumakai started teaching these as a result of their relationship with the late headmaster. Since Ohgami was independent, this never happened in his organization.

As an afterthough, it is interesting to note that Hisa Sensei called his dojo the Kansai Aikido club, and always considered what he taught had more to do with do than jutsu!

Where was I going with this? Just trying to shed some light on other less well known Daito Ryu teachers such as Ohgami Sensei, and Okabayashi Sensei!

Cheers,
Mike Preradovic

Haimeman
2nd November 2000, 16:06
hello,

I came across some terms for breathing skills in
an old Hakuhokai newsletter. Can anyone privately
e-mail me and shed some light on them? I was
wondering if they are done by all daito Ryu groups
or is this only Hakuhokai material?

They are - tenko no jutsu, jinchu no jutsu, chiso
no jutsu, and nyu shin no jutsu. I do alot of
kokyuho and would love to understand these. Thanks.

James feleciano

Nathan Scott
3rd November 2000, 22:04
Hello,

Kondo Sensei's new book on Ikkajo makes mention of the importance of breathing, but I haven't gotten a chance to finnish reading it yet.

Anyone else have any insight?

Howard Popkin
5th November 2000, 12:13
The breathing should take the same shape as the technique. Don't force it.

chris davis 200
18th November 2002, 14:23
Hi people,

I train with the UK branch dojo of Daito Ryu Aiki JuJutsu Hakkuho Kai headed by Okabayashi Sensei.

Does anyone on here know whether there has been a change to the name of this organisation to Hakkuho Ryu Aiki Jujutsu?

It is my undestanding that it has, but i cannot find any relevant information on the change?

cheers
Chris

O'Neill
26th February 2003, 18:19
Any new news on the Hakuhokai, such as name change to hakuho ryu aikijujutsu? Thanks.

CKohalyk
27th February 2003, 00:32
Okabayashi-sensei is just one of the many who moved away from the Takumakai for various reasons. Just typical DR politics.

My original DR teacher (Utsunomiya) was in the middle of becoming independant when I was started doing DR seriously 4 years ago. It was a harrowing time for those of us arriving on the scene because we weren't sure where our allegiances should be placed. For example even though I have been in the annual DR Enbutaikai in Ninomiya, and have trained with many "orthodox" Takumakai people, I don't really consider myself Takumakai, and am not really considered Takumakai by them. Unfortunately a lot of people find themselves trapped by politics, and sometimes this impedes their advancement.

Just my two yen,

CK

Sam17
14th October 2003, 20:24
Okabayashi Sensei learned daito ryu from two of the most influential figures to have practiced in the last century, the late Soke Tokimune Takeda and the late Menkyo Kaiden Takuma Hisa. Sensei has a wealth of knowledge rarely found today, even in Japan, and his teaching provides a deep insight into this powerful and graceful art.

Okabayashi Sensei will be conducting two seminars.
The First seminar will be held on the 29th of November and will be on Daito Ryu Aiki JuJutsu.
His second seminar will take place on the 30th of November and will focus on the wonderful art of Ono Ha itto Ryu Kenjutsu. During this seminar sensei will be teaching the principles of the Ono Ha Itto Ryu and will provide some excellent demonstrations of this art. Sensei holds a Menkyo in Ono-ha Itto Ryu and his organisation is dedicated to its preservation.

The costs for these two special seminars will be 30.00 per day. Each day will have approximately 4 hours of training and tuition.

For further information please contact Quentin Ball on +44 (0) 1452 739007 or e-mail on info@ninecircles.co.uk


Thankyou

chris davis 200
21st November 2003, 12:43
Hi all,

FYI - the Itto ryu is nearly sold out now so if you are planning on attending then please contact the above details ASAP.

Also the Daito ryu seminar is going pretty fast.

It will be a great opportunity for all UK Martial artists so please try to get along. You will not be disappointed

Kindest regards
Chris

ZenDragonfly
31st July 2004, 18:04
Hello,
im new to the boards here. I was wondering if anyone had any comments or input regarding Hakuho-ryu.
I've done a lot of online research, but was just wondering if anyone had any comments here. (I've noticed there seems to be alot of information to be gained here at e-budo)

just curious,
Thanks

Robert Wolfe
31st July 2004, 21:04
Okabayashi Sensei is a gentleman and a superb instructor, and his senior students -- at least the ones I've had the pleasure to meet -- are without exception top-notch. What kind of information are you looking for, that you could not get from one of the several Hakuho-ryu web sites?

ZenDragonfly
1st August 2004, 16:47
What kind of information are you looking for, that you could not get from one of the several Hakuho-ryu web sites?

Independent testamonials, like the one you just provided, pretty much.

I've researched quite a bit and understand the Daito-ryu roots, and the way the style came about. From my understanding of it, the philosophy and technique of the style are exactly what im looking for as well as the philosophy behind the method of instruction.

Thank you for your input. The more i learn about Hakuho-ryu, the more excited i am about this opportunity.

peace,

Ron Tisdale
2nd August 2004, 12:58
I have to second Bob Wolfe's recommendation. The one time I trained at one of Okabayashi Sensei's seminars (at Bob's dojo), it was fantastic. All of the participants that I travelled to the seminar with agreed...his technique is top notch, and he is a true gentleman. I typically train in the mainline of Daito ryu when Kondo Sensei comes to the states. Okabayashi Sensei knew this, and still welcomed me warmly. I wish him and his students the best.

Ron

Nathan Scott
3rd August 2004, 00:33
Hello Mr. Viculis,

I've merged your thread with an existing one of the same subject. Please have a look through it.

Also, here are some other threads that pertain to Hakuho-ryu/kai and Okabayashi Sensei:

Daito ryu AJJ Daibukan/ Ohgami Kenkichi (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16671)

Okabayashi Ryoichi (Hakuhokai): Another Perspective (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22265)

Haven't seen or met Okabayashi Sensei myself, so don't have an opinion.

Regards,

ZenDragonfly
3rd August 2004, 02:07
Mr. Wolfe, and Mr. Tisdale: Thank you for your input. It means alot to hear such glowing recomendations.

Mr. Scott:

Thank you for moving my post into this thread. I should pro'ly have found this thread myself in the first place (i did search ebudo) but im still learning how things work around here. This site is truly a treasure trove of information..im glad i found my way here.

Thanks again everyone,
and please; call me James. ('Mr. Viculis' is my father :p )

peace

Mateo
24th September 2004, 21:02
My name is Matthew Rogers and Im the Director of the Scarborough Martial Arts Training group < www.spiritforging.com >. I thought that I would alert those interested to a very unique training opportunity.

Okayabashi Shogen, one of the foremost students of Hisa Takuma (of the Osaka based Takumakai Daito Ryu group) and Takeda Tokimune (son of the Founder of Daito-ryu ) is coming on a brief trip to St. Catherines on October 13th to support the new dojo of one of his students, Joe Wilson, who has only recently returned to Ontario from several years of training with Okayabashi-sensei in Japan.

Integral to Okayabashi-senseis approach to jujutsu, aikijujutsu and the Itto Ryu school of swordsmanship is the reinfusion of the traditional Japanese warriors method of movement called hitoemi into modern practitioners way of performing technique. In an effort to preserve these concepts which he felt were being neglected Okayabashi-sensei founded the Hakuho Ryu Aiki Budo group.

Although Okayabashi will not be conducting a formal seminar in Toronto due to the newness of Mr. Wilsons dojo I think this training session would be of great interest to those interested in roots of modern aikido and the approach of the traditional Japanese warrior to performing jujutsu, aikijujutsu and sword techniques.

Those interested in participating in training with Okayabashi-sensei may contact Joe Wilson c/o my e-mail address:

< matt@spiritforging.com >

Those wishing to know more about Okayabashi-sensei and the Hakuho Ryu may look here:

< http://www.izzy.net/~dsharp/hakuhoryu/ >

Sincerely,

Matthew Rogers

Ryan L
29th June 2005, 18:18
I have read a story of Okabayashi Sensei bring a
student to the floor merely by breathing. Does Daito
Ryu Aikijujutsu develop this sort of energy work, or
is that something that would only be found in
Okabayashi's Hakuho Kai? How else are they different?

Also, can you reccomend any teachers in the New York
City area?

Robert Wolfe
29th June 2005, 20:00
Actually, that was the time Okabayashi Sensei was visiting Robin Brown's group in NYC, and he had the garlic, pickle, pastrami and sardine sandwich for lunch...

By the way, you need to sign your full name to posts.

Mateo
7th July 2005, 04:22
There are techniques done where inhaling and filling one's stomach with air tightens a lock that has already been placed on one's opponent. Perhaps this is what was meant. It is quite surprising when you feel it come on.

( Okabayashi isn't one of those 'magic fingers of ki' teachers. His techniques are practical and not overly esoteric. )

...But I prefer Robert's answer.

Although Robin Brown is, I think, in Europe now, the group he founded there may still be running.

Try contacting Joe Wilson in Toronto for information about others in the Hakuho Ryu group: <jnw@japan.com>

Vic20
23rd November 2005, 15:53
Hello!

I am still doing research into some martial arts that I may liek to study. One that I am looking at now is Daito Ryu. Specifically the Hakuho Ryu of Okabayashi Sensei.

Can I get some general opinions on this style?

Please, I am not asking and will not appreciate flaming. If you have issues with this group please be constructive and polite in your criticisms.

Any info will be appreciated.
Thanks!

Ron Tisdale
23rd November 2005, 18:35
I trained in one seminar with Okobayashi Sensei, and found it to be a great experience. If one of his students was close by, I'd probably be training to some extent at least with them now.

Best,
Ron

szczepan
24th November 2005, 00:30
I observed a bit one of his seminars, and wasn't very impressed. If I was you, I would choose rather a good judo or aikido teacher.

Nathan Scott
24th November 2005, 22:57
Merged w/ existing thread...

bwhite33
28th November 2005, 00:54
Was Okabayashi Sensei considered part of the Seishinkai split, while Takeda Soke was ill? I didn't see that he was mentioned when the group was asked to leave the mainline dojo.

Thank you

Mateo
28th November 2005, 03:50
Was Okabayashi Sensei considered part of the Seishinkai split, while Takeda Soke was ill? I didn't see that he was mentioned when the group was asked to leave the mainline dojo.

Thank you

No, Okabayashi-sensei was already a Menkyo holder through the Kansai based Takumakai group. Hisa gave him permission to go to Haokkaido to study with the Headmaster Takeda Tokimune as he was quite aged and suffering from a dehabilitating stroke. Okabayashi brought the Headmaster's approach to teaching the kihon waza back to the Takumakai and stayed on as one of the Shihan there.

However, although Mori-sensei approved of the changes to the Takumakai curriculum, not all were happy at changes being made to a tradition they worked so hard to preserve in its previous form. So he opened the Hakuhokai, as a branch of the Takumakai, so that he could maintain the two traditions he had studied from Hisa and Tokimune. There still were feelings of divisiveness in the Takumakai and so rather than allowing himself to the source of a problem within the organization he recently (perhaps two years ago?) founded the Hakuho ryu as a distinct entity from the Takumakai.

Mori-sensei and Kawabe-sensei remain the top shihan for the Takumakai.

This is just my own understanding of things as they seemed while I was studying there in 2000-2002.

Apparentally Takeda Tokimune, knowing the personalities involved, predicted the struggles which would ensue after his passing and advised Okabayashi to 'go his own way' and not become involved in such matters. In this way, and because of his pre-existing ties to the Takumakai, it would seem he has been able to be true to the headmaster's wishes.

I understand that in the cases of groups like the Saigo-ha, where there is no verifiable link to Daito-ryu people have felt the need to point such matters out. However I think it is a shame that the Daito-ryu community has wasted so much time and effort trying to establish who are the 'legitimate' inheritors of the art, and therefore who are the 'illegitimate' heirs, rather than celebrating the talents of people who were all true long term students of Takeda Tokimune and allowing them to equally share what they learned from the man without this sense of 'camps'.

I find it even more curious that the debate sparks such heat outside of Japan where there is really very little of legitimate Daito-ryu presence at all. Most Daito-ryu groups attached to real traditions are really just study groups and are not even full fledged branch dojos of the traditions represented in Japan. (There are of course exceptions. Finland I believe has a strong Takumaki following, I believe.) I can't help but think that this would not be the case if the art were just another Koryu and didn't have the links to multitudes of aikido practitioners training around the world.

Nathan, which Daito-ryu tradition have you trained in? You seem to have quite a bit of knowledge of the art's background. I'm sure you've shared this in the past so my apologies for asking if I'm the only one who doesn't know. I'd also like to say that your job as moderator here must be challenging at times and I'm sure your efforts are appreciated by a great many who come to this site in an effort to better inform themselves and share views.

Bullbrand
28th November 2005, 10:51
Two articles I came across which is relevant to this thread.
From FightingArts.com

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=315

and

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=454

Mateo
28th November 2005, 11:11
For fear of having printed something inaccurate here is a link to an interview with Okabayashi-sensei

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:SJ2r4dRNshoJ:www.koryukan.com/article1.html+Okabayashi+Shogen&hl=en

Better to hear things in his own words.

bwhite33
28th November 2005, 11:43
Thanks for the personal views and the link.

I wasn't sure after reading this:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148305&postcount=19

Mateo
28th November 2005, 13:09
Those other teachers must have been there during the period of time that Okabayashi was training at the Daitokan but Okabayashi was training in Hokkaido as a representative of Hisa and the Takumakai and so returned to that organization upon his return.

I think it is quite natural that one might associate Okabayashi-sensei with the Hokkaido based teachers as they trained at the same dojo however to say that Okabayashi-sensei was ever part of the Seishinkai organization (and whatever name it was called before) is erroneous. His independence from the Takumakai organization is also quite recent.

bwhite33
28th November 2005, 13:46
I observed a bit one of his seminars, and wasn't very impressed. If I was you, I would choose rather a good judo or aikido teacher.

What would have made the seminar impressive? What would make a good judo/aikido teacher?

Thanks

Nathan Scott
28th November 2005, 19:57
I've merged the last few posts from a thread on Daito-ryu groups to this thread to aid in future info searches. It would be much appreciated if ya'll could try to keep the threads a bit more on topic (post to an exisiting thread of the same topic or create a new thread) so good information is not lost!

Mr. Rogers,

It's always nice to hear first hand feedback on the art.


I understand that in the cases of groups like the Saigo-ha, where there is no verifiable link to Daito-ryu people have felt the need to point such matters out. However I think it is a shame that the Daito-ryu community has wasted so much time and effort trying to establish who are the 'legitimate' inheritors of the art, and therefore who are the 'illegitimate' heirs, rather than celebrating the talents of people who were all true long term students of Takeda Tokimune and allowing them to equally share what they learned from the man without this sense of 'camps'.

During the Seishinkai debates I mentioned that not everyone is going to agree with, appreciate, or understand the necessity of such debates. Not everyone likes politics or likes to be involved. However, I've always felt that someone has to be involved in such matters or misunderstandings and problems will develop that will be very hard if not impossible to reverse in the future.

For me, such debates are not necessarily designed to establish a black and white judgement of who is right or wrong. Issues like Daito-ryu succession are too complicated and grey to reach a conclusion that everyone will be satisfied with. The best you can hope for is to collect statements and facts so that those involved (or interested) can inform themselves and make an educated decision on who to follow - or at least, understand why they are coming from. The key is to encourage polite discourse, not emotional mud slinging, which is distasteful to everyone. As far as the last Daito-ryu succession debates a few years ago, which was spawned by the Seishinkai claiming to be the "Daito-ryu Honbu Dojo" while Kondo Sensei's Shinbukan Dojo claimed to hold the only Menkyo Kaiden in DR AJJ from their teacher, Takeda Tokimune, I felt quite a bit of progress was made this time around - which I still plan to summarize sometime in the near future (from my own perspective and involvement). I for one became deeply involved in the debate somewhat by accident, as I was one of several people asking questions of the Seishinkai on their own forum. Apparently the Seishinkai deemed my approach to be among the more polite asked, and preferred to interact primarily through myself through the rest of the debate. It was never my intention to spearhead a debate over Daito-ryu succession, but it was an interesting and informational experience!

In the case of Daito-ryu, less than 60 years ago there was a single recognized headmaster for the art (Sokaku). Since that time, there has been massive confusion and controversy over who if anyone was intended to head the art. The senior students of Sokaku seemed to have mixed feelings over the succession issue, and ended up continuing on their own. It would have been nice (read: likely strengthen the future transmission of Daito-ryu) to establish a single mainline, but it would seem that the leaders of the major branches were taught somewhat different things, and generallly, have different ideas of how the art should be transmitted (even though it seems clear how Sokaku intended for it to be taught). As such, some of these lines of DR will unfortunately splinter and die over time, while others will surely survive - for better or for worse. Without a "mainline", the branch that publishes the most articles, books and videos (makes the teachings the most public) will probably draw the most students, regardless of the nature and "legitimacy" of their teachings.


I find it even more curious that the debate sparks such heat outside of Japan where there is really very little of legitimate Daito-ryu presence at all.

Not all that surprising when you think about how Japanese tend to avoid conflict and lawsuits, while westerners do not. Researchers, such as Stan Pranin, have been instrumental in raising such issues, and was in fact the one to write and publish an open letter against the Seishinkai's use of the title "honbu dojo", which is specifically what sparked the last debate. Though Stan doesn't study DR, he has been involved and has deep knowlede of the art and its politics for many years, including issues in the west and in Japan. Japanese organizations more times than not these days seem to take the attitude of "it can't be helped" when advised of problems, and turn their head the other way. Sounds like a nice way to avoid conflict, but I've seen a great number of problems develop in Japanese organizations from this policy, of which the Japanese always become very surprised that such a things could have happened.

You are right, there are very few legitimate Daito-ryu instructors and dojo outside of Japan, and most legitimate dojo out there do currently seem to be of a study group status. However, there are quite a few members, senior or otherwise, of legit Japanese Daito-ryu groups in the western world, and these members have a right to express their interest in the future of their art.


I can't help but think that this would not be the case if the art were just another Koryu and didn't have the links to multitudes of aikido practitioners training around the world.

Other koryu have problems equally as complicated, heated, and controversial, but Daito-ryu has been of major interest to the budo world for years now. Thus, the problems become more public the more an art remains in the "limelight" (TSKSR was in a similar position not long ago, which is another koryu I've defended in the past). Many are either looking to strip the teachings from DR for their own benefit or trying to set claims to membership/seniority in the art. Some are legit, but most are not. You can "hide your head in the sand" and just do your own thing, or you can provide a public place to document facts and points of view so prospective members and interested parties can educate themselves. ;)

FWIW, I've gone to bat to defend several other koryu publicly in past years, and will surely do so again in the future. Mostly ryu-ha I'm not members of. But I love budo, and koryu in particular, and believe that the majority of koryu arts are in fear of dissappearing in the next generation or two if major efforts are not made to ensure longevity, which is a fear shared by others I've talked to as well. Who is going to be a part of preserving the arts (what is best for the art) and who is going to just use the arts to gain popularity and wealth (what is best for themselves)?


Nathan, which Daito-ryu tradition have you trained in? You seem to have quite a bit of knowledge of the art's background. I'm sure you've shared this in the past so my apologies for asking if I'm the only one who doesn't know. I'd also like to say that your job as moderator here must be challenging at times and I'm sure your efforts are appreciated by a great many who come to this site in an effort to better inform themselves and share views.

I've picked up a few things here and there over the years, but there is far more I don't know that what I know. Most of my budo experience is in fact in Japanese swordsmanship and pre-war aikido. As I've posted before, the credentials (arts and ranks) that I choose to make public can be found pretty easily on the internet, and tend to relate directly to the arts that I teach to the public.

Daito-ryu is a truly fascinating art, and the art and it's "chuko no so" are quite famous for various reasons. I'm one of many who are interested in learning more about the art, but at the same time, am also concerned with the posting of information that could damage the efforts of those members of Daito-ryu who are struggling to maintain the integrity or the art for future generations.

The only public forum I moderate these days is the AJJ forum here, so seeing as how the term AJJ was first used by Takeda Sokaku in the early 20's, and there are very few other arts (worth discussing) who use the term AJJ, I spend a fair amount of time defending DR here and documenting/researching info. Regardless of my affiliations, I try to contribute here as objectively as possible, based on my own opinions and experience/research.

I'm sure there are some who think my moderating is too heavy handed, but as I stated in the introduction thread at the top of the forum years ago, I'm trying to use this forum primarily as an information resource rather than just a chit-chat forum. I've since come across posts on other forums referring people interested in AJJ to this forum, saying that this was one of the most reliable places on the net to research the art. This makes it all worthwhile. We've had some great discussions and valuable contributions to these forums over the years. Hopefully that will continue. I suspect that those who are looking to educate themselves on the art will appreciate the atmosphere and structure here, while those simply looking to hear their own voices probably will not! :D

Regards,

bwhite33
28th November 2005, 21:59
Nathan, thanks for the merger of topics, and sorry for the topic/thread drift ... they all made sense to me :-)

bryan

Mateo
28th November 2005, 22:37
Thanks for the response.

Sometimes I feel that the fact that there was not just one line of Daito-ryu has made for it being a richer, more complex and interesting art.

I, myself, was more attracted to what I saw in Kansai than the other branches I'd been exposed to. Having Kondo, the Hokkaido teachers, Sagawa's students (everybody seems interested in that tradition!), the Takumakai, the Kodokai and apparentally some teachers in Fukuoka has made for more interesting perspectives upon the same art.

When we add arts which were inspired by Daito-ryu, like aikido, Hakko-ryu, hapkido and even portions of the Shorinji kempo curriculum we are left with a very rich tapestry indeed.

As for the Seishinkai debates I respect the idea that people want to establish and identify which tradition represents the 'orthodox tradition' and represents the hombu. However I think if we get too caught up in this argument we will find that we closing doors rather than opening them. We can argue which group best represents the hombu but we should take care not to extend that argument to implying that these are not legitimate teachers of Daito-ryu. They all studied under the headmaster. There is no Soke now despite our arguments as to who has the 'best claim' to the title. That everyone of the teachers has a valuably different insight into the tradition is something which I feel confident of.

While in Shizuoka I trained briefly with Mochizuki Minoru, a pre-war student of Ueshiba. I have also had the opportunity to train with a great many Yoshinkan practitioners and watch Shioda in person when he was alive demonstrating his aikido.

Shioda was one of the two men that I seen in the flesh that I felt was a true 'master', not in the sense we sometimes misuse the word to represent 'sensei' or even 'shihan' but in the conventional English sense. I felt that he could do anything at anytime and it would come out completely composed and beautiful in its timing and appropriacy. Not that he was a 'god' or anything. You can see him make errors at times but he took them with grace. I really felt he translated movement into art.

However I don't believe that either he or Mochizuki Minoru were practising Daito-ryu. Their arts are beautiful but move very differently than Daito-ryu. I don't think they were better or worse, just different.

I think Mr. Pranin's work in the area of aikido is the work of the ages. He really sought to make Aiki News/Aiki Journal 'inclusive' rather forcing the orthodox viewpoint of the mainline. He brought to light the influence of extent of Daito-ryu's influence on aikido, he treated those who were outside the mainline of aikido (Mochizuki, Shioda, Inoue,Tohei etc.) with equal respect as those in the mainline. We could really see that aikido was made up of many equally splendid viewpoints. I think he was inspired to do so by the fact that his own teacher was viewed somewhat outside the mainstream. (I'm sure that Saito-sensei believed that he was preserving the 'real teachings' of the founder better than anyone else.) I'd like to see more of the generosity of that view point extended to some other corners of the world of Daito-ryu.

Nathan Scott
29th November 2005, 01:58
Hello again,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll try to make mine short since we're getting off topic here...


They all studied under the headmaster. There is no Soke now despite our arguments as to who has the 'best claim' to the title. That everyone of the teachers has a valuably different insight into the tradition is something which I feel confident of.

That is part of the problem. "Soke" was a title created and assumed by Tokimune for his Aikibudo, not AJJ. Sokaku never used the title Soke. I know it sounds like a small point, but there is much that goes with this.

The thing is, ranks/densho are issued in classical/traditional arts for a reason. They represent levels of initiation and authority in an art. If they didn't matter at all, and anyone who has ever studied the art was free to teach what they knew (or more correctly, what they thought they knew) then headmasters would just issue menkyo kaiden on the first day of training to everyone who walks in the door. Yes, anyone who has studied for a number of years surely has teachings worth learning, but unless they've reached the highest levels of initiation, they do not have full knowledge of the art, and as such, are not able to teach "the art" correctly. The densho system is the way headmasters in classical arts control who teaches what and who has authority. If we discard this, then we go against the wishes of the headmaster, and in turn weaken their authority by freely accepting those who are not properly licensed to teach. Even Otake Shihan from TSKSR has stated that he is more concerned with TSKSR being taught correctly than the fact that others are teaching it without his permission. He has a right to control the trasmission of the art, and those of us wishing to study the art should respect his authority and right to transmit the art to when and to who he thinks will best suit the art.

But if you disagree with me, no hard feelings on my side!

You're right about mulitple lines of transmission though. More personalities can add to the richness of an art. However, then you run into problems with "who is your teacher", and possibly mixing teachings that some instructors may be trusting you to keep inside their own branch.

Regards,

Dave Humm
29th November 2005, 16:55
As a student of Aikikai Aikido I was very interested in attending a seminar run here in the UK by one of Okabayashi Ryoichi Sensei's students.

The day it's self was superb and with any seminar I came away with a number of thoughts and aspects which I'm sure will enrich my own study of Aikido. One such aspect was an Aiki hand form referred to as called Asa Gao. This struck a cord with me because I've seen this hand positioning (and subsequent arm movements) in many Aikido techniques, Irimi nage and Tenshi nage being two classic examples.

I was wondering if anyone here with knowledge of Daito Ryu could expand on Asa Gao for me. I would like to know more about this aspect of the art so that I can absorb that into my Aikido study.

Kind regards

Walker
30th November 2005, 17:43
It means "morning glory" and is a funnel shape.

Cady Goldfield
30th November 2005, 17:53
...That's also what they used to call a "pissoire"... urinal. :D At least that was the case during the late Edo and early Meiji. In Asian antique shops I've seen lovely funnel/morning glory-shaped porcelain pissoires painted to look like the flower itself...

Who's to say that there isn't some deep aikijujutsu philosophy to be gleaned from an Edo-period urinal.

Okay, I'm shutting up now. :p

Nathan Scott
1st December 2005, 03:25
Mr. Humm,

Glad you enjoyed your first class. However, I think you'll find that we don't talk much here about technical matters. That is best taught by your teacher, and in Daito-ryu, many things are intended for members only.

Terms, definitions, translations, and applications of terms and techniques are going to vary branch to branch anyway. The best results come from training hard and doing your own research.

Good luck to you,

Sam17
1st December 2005, 17:27
Hi Dave glad you enjoyed yourself.

Asa Gaoa:- a few things to think about...

The hand form strenthens the arm without the tension of a clenched fist type movement. Feel this for yourself by holding your wrist and making the form.

The movement follows the natural arc of movement produced when you use this form, this also adds power without tension to your movements. Also experiment with this. Get someone to grab your wrist as firmly as possible and use the arc and hand form to move them with ease and release the grip if required.

You should find that you need to close the armpit to give you more connection with your body (your centre and your strongest point) and "sink" your elbows to amplify this connection.

Just a few things to work on if you want. Just mess about with it, try and do it as relaxed as possible and you should learn many more things about it and about efficent movement in general.

And there are few secrets, just hard work. :) :)

Sam

Ron Tisdale
1st December 2005, 17:54
Thanks Sam, good to see you here again. Is this shape you mention used in shihonage and aiki age a lot in your school of Daito ryu?

Best,
Ron

judasith
2nd December 2005, 09:10
First a warm hallo to all posters.

Second, the topic at hand: the hand-shape you mention is typical of Daito-ryu, not only of Hakuho-ryu as Okabayashi now rightly calls his personal art.

It is used in aikinage excersises and also in some techniques, like nukite dori (which is in the hiden mokuroku, ikkajo, idori). It is also used in the aikinojutsu mokuroku, with many other different hand shapes.

The most important thing I wanted to express with this post, though, is that this and the other aiki movements or techniques doesn't have, in Daito-ryu, any mystical or supernatual aiki concept, they work biomechanically, EVEN if you are not a believer, given proper teaching and training. It's a physical technique, using the principle of aiki.

In Daito-ryu, we give aiki much importance, but not as much as in aikido: for us, aiki is another strategy among many; there is atemi, kuzushi, kansetsu, and yes, there is aiki. We use aiki instead of another strategy just as the situations demands. The katas are structured on this principle, in some you use mainly aiki, we call it aikinojutsu, in some you use mainly other strategies, we call it jujutsu, in some you use both strategies at the same time, we call it aikijujutsu.

The hiden mokuroku is mainly about jujutsu;
the aikinojutsu mokuroku is mainly about aiki;
the chuden and souden are mainly about jujutsu and aikijujutsu.

So we don't have to BELIEVE in a strange energy called aiki, we just apply it.

That's why sometimes I say harsh things about some Daito-ryu teachers: they just want to sell a dream to crowds of aikidokas. It's better to practice Aikikai Aikido, which is a serious martial art, than Daito-ryu with some teachers that sell mystical energies and supernatural powers. You can't apply aiki to someone without SOME physical contact, you can't transmit it like electricity through an human chain of people, and definitely you cannot paralyze or put people to sleep by applying aiki with a touch of one finger like Takeo Nishikido of the Kodokai does!!!

People just WANTS to be fooled... aiki is real, it works - given the situation is right - but it is NOT a supernatural power or a mystical energy.

I guess maybe when presenting Daito-ryu to Aikido people they think it has a greater stress on aiki and energies than they do, but at the core, to quote Serge Mol, Daito-ryu is not much different than the other koryus. And NO ONE thought about energies and mystical mumbo-jumbo in the Edo period, especially when facing a guy armed with sword and the intention to use it on your interiors.

So to go back to the topic, the Asa Gao shape you're interested to is aiki, it works, it's used in some techniques (but not everywhere), it's physical and practical, even if it does not involve grabbing someone, but don't search mistery, energy or mystical powers, just training and hard work.

Sam17
2nd December 2005, 11:11
Hi Ron,

It is quite fundamental. It can be found in some way or another in all techniques.

:)
Sam

Dave Humm
2nd December 2005, 12:54
The most important thing I wanted to express with this post, though, is that this and the other aiki movements or techniques doesn't have, in Daito-ryu, any mystical or supernatual aiki concept, they work biomechanically, EVEN if you are not a believer, given proper teaching and training. It's a physical technique, using the principle of aiki.

In Daito-ryu, we give aiki much importance, but not as much as in aikido: for us, aiki is another strategy among many; there is atemi, kuzushi, kansetsu, and yes, there is aiki. We use aiki instead of another strategy just as the situations demands. The katas are structured on this principle, in some you use mainly aiki, we call it aikinojutsu, in some you use mainly other strategies, we call it jujutsu, in some you use both strategies at the same time, we call it aikijujutsu.

The hiden mokuroku is mainly about jujutsu;
the aikinojutsu mokuroku is mainly about aiki;
the chuden and souden are mainly about jujutsu and aikijujutsu.

So we don't have to BELIEVE in a strange energy called aiki, we just apply it.

That's why sometimes I say harsh things about some Daito-ryu teachers: they just want to sell a dream to crowds of aikidokas. It's better to practice Aikikai Aikido, which is a serious martial art, than Daito-ryu with some teachers that sell mystical energies and supernatural powers. You can't apply aiki to someone without SOME physical contact, you can't transmit it like electricity through an human chain of people, and definitely you cannot paralyze or put people to sleep by applying aiki with a touch of one finger like Takeo Nishikido of the Kodokai does!!!

People just WANTS to be fooled... aiki is real, it works - given the situation is right - but it is NOT a supernatural power or a mystical energy.

I guess maybe when presenting Daito-ryu to Aikido people they think it has a greater stress on aiki and energies than they do, but at the core, to quote Serge Mol, Daito-ryu is not much different than the other koryus. And NO ONE thought about energies and mystical mumbo-jumbo in the Edo period, especially when facing a guy armed with sword and the intention to use it on your interiors.

So to go back to the topic, the Asa Gao shape you're interested to is aiki, it works, it's used in some techniques (but not everywhere), it's physical and practical, even if it does not involve grabbing someone, but don't search mistery, energy or mystical powers, just training and hard work.Ok, you've lost me with your tangent of being "fooled" or "supernatural power" or "mystical energy"... What was your point ?

I study Aikido, experienced Daito Ryu for the first time and recognised an aspect which interested me greatly; perhaps you'd care to clarify on what part of that fairly succinct point where "mumbo jumbo" comes in... Or were you just having a cheap pop at someone ?

Regards

judasith
2nd December 2005, 13:45
Not at all... Just an opportunity to tell something about Daito-ryu and aiki...

The idea is that it is a pretty fundamental tecnique (with many other), but simply you should not expect an explanation of this aiki technique (or of every other for that matter) in a religious way, like "it's the power ok Daito-ryu aiki". Daito-ryu is about technique and hard training, not mistery.

Regards

Dave Humm
2nd December 2005, 14:47
Not at all... Just an opportunity to tell something about Daito-ryu and aiki...

The idea is that it is a pretty fundamental tecnique (with many other), but simply you should not expect an explanation of this aiki technique (or of every other for that matter) in a religious way, like "it's the power ok Daito-ryu aiki". Daito-ryu is about technique and hard training, not mistery.

RegardsI'm still at a loss to understand why you feel I'd expect any particular format of explanation, least of all the manor you describe?

Asa Gao was briefly explained to me personally by the instructor during the day, this was because I specifically asked for that information, due in part because I recognised that hand form from my aikido study - as I recall explaining in my first post; no mention of religious or mystical overtones what so ever.

Regards

Walker
2nd December 2005, 17:36
Perhaps because you asked about one tiny element of Daito ryu curriculum that you wished to apply willy nilly to your aikido. Perhaps, out of compassion, he wished to give you some context.

Dave Humm
2nd December 2005, 18:14
Perhaps because you asked about one tiny element of Daito ryu curriculum that you wished to apply willy nilly to your aikido. Perhaps, out of compassion, he wished to give you some context.Laters, pointless trying to have a serious discussion here.

judasith
2nd December 2005, 21:37
I'm sorry you took my explanation and, yes, context so badly. Just wanted to be helpful and maybe I went overkill in explaining what aiki in the mainline Daito-ryu tradition is. I understand you only wanted to talk about that specific form, but I felt I could pass you a greater insight on this topic. No one ever hinted that YOU were searching for mystical energies... only said there are MANY who, unfortunately, do.

Mark Jakabcsin
2nd December 2005, 22:03
The most important thing I wanted to express with this post, though, is that this and the other aiki movements or techniques doesn't have, in Daito-ryu, any mystical or supernatual aiki concept, they work biomechanically, EVEN if you are not a believer, given proper teaching and training. It's a physical technique, using the principle of aiki.

Dave,
The above statement is a good example of the problem in discussing aiki, although I still like to do so. Our friend here believes he knows what aiki is and yet his very comments illustrate his limited understanding. His close mindedness is his fault but not his lack of knowledge, as this continually grows over time. The following quote is from the new book "Discovering Aiki: My 20 Years with Yukiyoshi Sagawa Sensei" Tatsuo Kimura, it illustrates the problem in understanding aiki.



Even though I studied under Sagawa Sensei for such a long time, I misunderstood many times what Aiki is. I felt that many people with some ability misunderstand that what they are doing is Aiki. Sagawa Sensei told me that he thought what he was doing was the same Aiki that Takeda Sensei did, but that he wasn't sure. He said that's just the way things are.


You see even these highly trained individuals constantly found their understanding of aiki to change, hence one must always keep an open mind.

I agree that aiki isn't mystical or supernatural, nor have I ever heard a DRAJJ teacher claim it to be, hence I am surprised at the following comment.




That's why sometimes I say harsh things about some Daito-ryu teachers: they just want to sell a dream to crowds of aikidokas. It's better to practice Aikikai Aikido, which is a serious martial art, than Daito-ryu with some teachers that sell mystical energies and supernatural powers. You can't apply aiki to someone without SOME physical contact, you can't transmit it like electricity through an human chain of people, and definitely you cannot paralyze or put people to sleep by applying aiki with a touch of one finger like Takeo Nishikido of the Kodokai does!!!

Aiki is more than just biomechanical, it also encompasses a knowledge of attackers minds and emotions and how to manipulate them as well as a knoweldge of one's own mind and emotions and how to protect them. You most definitely can move someone using aiki without physcial contact, heck walk down a busy street in NYC and you see people doing it constantly. This isn't mystical or supernatural, it's simply an understanding of humans. Present them with a perceived force or threat and they will make adjustments if the presentation is correct. Knowing how to create the force (physical or perceived) and then knowing how to manipulate the reaction is a large part of aiki training. Now this doesn't mean one relies on solely on such motions in real confrontations, heck much of this is simply a set up for follow up work.

'Transmit it like electricity through an human chaine of people,....', this is someone not understanding the drill. I am guessing the poster has zero personal experience with this drill, he simply watched a video, didn't understand, so it MUST be bogus. The drill is simply a way to illustrate the use of a shape. By lining up and holding hands one can feel how the shape moves through his/her body and into the next person. Over time one begins to understand that these shapes must move through the entire body, even if very small. This is where much of the power is at, using the entire body to move/create the shapes. These shapes also have a great deal to do with kuzshi and the connection with the mind and emotions. Someone sensitive can feel how his/her body actually chases after a desired balance state, but since the shape provides a constantly changing force vector the body is always behind the curve and quickly it's perception of the desired balance state is thrown out of whack. This drill offers many more learning opportunities but those must be experienced first and then puzzled out, but to do this one must keep an open mind. Since the poster was unaware of potential learning in the drill he surmises the teacher is claiming electrical shocks or some such nonsense and closes his mind off to the possibilities. It's a shame but it happens.

Best of luck,

Mark J.

Dave Humm
2nd December 2005, 22:22
Forgive me fellas, and I do genuinely appreciate ALL replies however; In the context of "aiki" - I can get as much of that from my continuing studies of Aikikai "aiki"do as I want, I have no need to supplement or attempt to cross breed those 18 or so years training with something I've only experienced ONCE ! I merely wanted to absorb a little further knowledge of the origins of my chosen study...

I asked about a specific hand form (which just so happens to be an Aiki form) however, I still fail to grasp the reason why this very simple question ended up attempting to discuss what I was possibly expecting by way of the replies, additionally, I didn't ask, nor do I actually want (with respect) any of you guys to try and explain to me what "Aiki" is. As for the "willy nilly" comment I won't dignify that with a further thought.

Thanks to everyone, your comments have been illuminating in one direction or another.

Regards

Nathan Scott
3rd December 2005, 03:47
Glad I spent the time to post my little disclaimer.

Well, I'll make another one, for the benefit of those interested in Daito-ryu who might be searching these forums for information: No kidding - I've yet to see ANYONE posting to the internet anywhere about Daito-ryu who has any deep level of initiation in the art (read: in a position to know for a fact what they are talking about, regardless of the branch). Period. Yeah, there have been good contributions over the years, some more insightful than others, but be advised that you are not reading technical feedback about Daito-ryu here or anywhere else from anyone who is deeply initiated. The reason is because, as Mark rightly pointed out, those more deeply initiated realize that what they understood a few years ago has already changed with continued practice and instruction, and don't want to make an A out of themselves posting wrong information on the net. Plus, such members had to work pretty hard to gain any understanding, and are typically now willing to just give it away to the whole world for a whopping 5 minutes of fame.

Come on, fully initiated students of Takeda like Sagawa Sensei and Kimura Sensei don't feel comfortable saying they know what aiki "is", but we all do somehow? Anyway, the above disclaimer is a big reason why I discourage technical discussions on the forum. Nobody agrees on anything, and more misconceptions are being spread here than accurate information. Some of it might be interesting or even useful, but at the same time, may not at all reflect the complete ideas of any of the Daito-ryu branches.

Threads like this are perfect examples of what you get when you offer open seminars to the public (non-members) on arts like Daito-ryu. A little information is a dangerous thing.

BTW, did it occur to anyone to just PM or email each other about stuff like this instead of posting it on the internet? Just curious...

Dave Humm
3rd December 2005, 10:04
Mr. Scott.

As a third part looking in on this forum, as a person who took the time to pose a simple and legitimate question relating to an art which has direct connection to the art I study and teach, I don't think my presence here or the question I posed was altogether counter productive, indeed what the hell is the internet discussion forum for anyway (simplistically speaking) however, I was not aware or privy to the many branches of Daito Ryu or indeed the obvious back-biting which has gone on before.

To that end I won't waste any more of my time in this forum which IMHO, if the information you present is accurate (and I have no reason to suggest otherwise), and some of the responses to my question are a-typical of what one might expect, I beg the question why bother having a "discussion" forum allowing Daito Ryu as a topic at all ?

What you presented in your last post is indeed a sad state of affairs.

Kind regards

Dave

Dan Harden
3rd December 2005, 11:57
Mr. Humm

Nathan was pointing out that Daito ryu-like many Koryu- or the high level Chinese arts are closely held. Not open for, or geared to, the more open discussions you see on the net. He was suggesting that the various branches are alive and well but that they do not have a significant presence on the net. Truth be told I was as confused as you about the type of responses you got. But, were not a few trying to be helpful?

I think Nathans comments were spot on and he was trying to not insult or harm anyone. Some of those you hear from are no longer even in the art-they are discussing past experiences! Overall, I think the net has taught us that the net is not representative of the arts. The net is representative of some people IN these arts. No more no less. I think we can agree that the stuff you hear from those on the net in Aikido is not an acurate reflection of Aikido either.
As for open discussion comparisons- to bring some balance to the table- I offer this. Its like someone asking specific details about technique in TSKSR, Takenouchi ryu, or Araki ryu. No one with any real authority-well no one of any level- is going to say anything substantial. As for the many in Daito ryu? I am sure they would find it humorous to be told thay are involved in a sad state of affairs! And I don't see the back biting you refer to. The different branches have diffrerent goals, there are lineage discussions to be sure, but those in different schools are happliy toiling away just like you are in the many diffrerent branches of Aikido. I suggest to you that those in Daito ryu are alive and well, training hard, and living their lives just like in Aikido.


I appreciated your comments about the forum. But in all these years NOTHING substantial has ever been said in them or about them in regard to technical mattersof Daito ryu-ever.
I coined a nick-name for it at its creation many years ago.
Aikijujutsu-The forum, that ain't.
cheers
Dan

judasith
3rd December 2005, 15:50
Ehm, just to clarify: no one here EVER wanted to define what aiki is or boast deep knowledge of something. Sorry you misunderstood me, maybe I don't always express my opinions clear in English.

I'm not being so vain as to presume knowing all about aiki; not at all. Neither I just wanted to say it's ONLY a biomechanical thing: at all.

But I DO am certain in any case just learning a little of it requires YEARS of hard training and also a certain gift of insight, not always people have.

What I really wanted to express is in our line of Daito-ryu (mainline from Takeda Tokimune) aiki doesn't have any particularly special importance than another of our strategies; it's just another of the ways you can deal with an attack, under certain circumstances. I personally believe, instead, people and westerners in particular tend to be much more interested in the aiki part of Daito-ryu than it's plain koryu jujutsu part, which is the most of its practice for at least 10 to 15 years of training.

Of course this is true for some Daito-ryu lines, while others, like the Kodo Horikawa and Yukiyoshi Sagawa lines (see the other topic on this board) put the greatest effort and amount of practice and techniques on this part.

Hope I made myself more clear this time!

Regards

Nathan Scott
4th December 2005, 04:22
Hello Mr. Humm,

Yep, Dan's post sums it up. The various branches of aikido have more or less learned to co-exist without fighting, and for the most part so has Daito-ryu. Where there is usually the most problem is with those using the Daito-ryu name that shouldn't be, and that is simply an unsavory matter of housecleaning. Information is power.

I don't know who decided discussion forums are for discussing techniques, but I've stated in these forums several times, and posted to the intro thread at the top of this forum (which nobody ever reads) that the intent of this forum is a little different than most. I believe that this forum can be of the most use if it provides a place to collect and organize historical information about the art, a dojo finder of legitimate branches for those actually interested in training in the art, and open discussions about or with those teaching the arts (legitimate and otherwise). Somehow, we've managed to fill up this forum with such discussions. Most of us get along here these days as well, even though we often have different experiences and points of views about things.

We'd welcome you to continue to contribute here if you'd like. All are welcome. However, it might be helpful to read through some of the other threads to get a feel for the atmosphere here.

Regards,

Dave Humm
4th December 2005, 11:38
... However, it might be helpful to read through some of the other threads to get a feel for the atmosphere here.

Regards,Thanks again, I think I already have the "feel" for this forum. All the same I again thank everyone for their contribution. I'll reserve any future questions or interests I may have for actual seminars.

Regards

J.T. Hurley
4th December 2005, 16:59
Stop by the Aikido forum before you go. We'd love to have you.

Sam17
5th December 2005, 11:03
O My :rolleyes:

Mark Jakabcsin
6th December 2005, 13:05
I was not aware or privy to the many branches of Daito Ryu or indeed the obvious back-biting which has gone on before.


Dave, we dont back bite here. Bicker and bitch always, shout in frustration and make pointless accusations occasional, but never back bite. Most of us are more of a stab you in the chest kinda folks, as we want our opponent to know who is twisting it.

Besides, how an Internet forum interacts hardly represents different branches of an art. It was silly to even say such a thing. I am sure your feathers will go back into place and hopefully with time you will realize the only one that ruffled them on this thread was yourself..well except for maybe Doug, but he is so darn entertaining we like to keep him around. Plus he made a valid point.

Once you make a post you can't dictate to the forum the responses you will accept or won't accept. Each thread takes on a life of it's own, your frustration appears to be you desire to control something that can't be controlled. Unbunch the panties and enjoy the ride, even if it takes you somewhere you didn't plan on.



Some of those you hear from are no longer even in the art-they are discussing past experiences!


For those without game day programs, Dan is referring to me. The way you worded this was very PC Dan. Impressive. :)



Well, I'll make another one, for the benefit of those interested in Daito-ryu who might be searching these forums for information: No kidding - I've yet to see ANYONE posting to the internet anywhere about Daito-ryu who has any deep level of initiation in the art (read: in a position to know for a fact what they are talking about, regardless of the branch). Period.

Very true, but it doesn't mean we can't have thought provoking and interesting discussions of a technical nature. And if incorrect information is presented, doesn't that simply help those in DR that wish to keep their art secret. Note, not all branches have this policy, some are fairly open as they feel you can hide stuff in plain sight. Only those willing to work for it will understand, hence the need for secrecy is minimal at best.




I asked about a specific hand form (which just so happens to be an Aiki form) however, I still fail to grasp the reason why this very simple question ended up attempting to discuss what I was possibly expecting by way of the replies, additionally, I didn't ask, nor do I actually want (with respect) any of you guys to try and explain to me what "Aiki" is.

Daves response merely illustrates my point about hiding it in plain sight. Heck I answered his original question, which was I was wondering if anyone here with knowledge of Daito Ryu could expand on Asa Gao for me. I would like to know more about this aspect of the art so that I can absorb that into my Aikido study. and he still didnt get it. Not knocking on you Dave but I gave you a good deal to think about and work on. Some feel I gave you too much, but then again I dont actively train in DR nor am I a ranked representative so perhaps it is best to simply ignore it. :)




BTW, did it occur to anyone to just PM or email each other about stuff like this instead of posting it on the internet? Just curious...

Nope, never gave it a thought. Ill try to think about it in the future, but no promises.




Hope I made myself more clear this time!


Giacomo, Yes, you did. Thank you for taking the time to post again. Take care.

Mark J.

Dave Humm
27th December 2005, 21:26
Sorry to belabor this actually very interesing (despite Mr. Humm's protestations) thread Interesting indeed, 3 pages worth of discussion 99% of which fails to address the original question. :rolleyes:

jonesm20
27th December 2005, 22:46
Maybe your question won't be answered, but did you honestly believe it would? Questions of purely technical nature are best demonstrated and taught, better yet... felt.

You started an interesting discussion, even if your question isn't answered you might learn something else.

Dave Humm
28th December 2005, 00:35
Maybe your question won't be answered, but did you honestly believe it would? Questions of purely technical nature are best demonstrated and taught, better yet... felt. Well actually.... My question has been answered - in part by a couple of contributors to this thread, if you care to read the early part of the replies.

In answer to your question, would I have taken to time to post the question in the first place if I didn't really "honestly believe" someone with experience in Daito Ryu might consider expanding in whatever capacity they saw fit ? Unless of course you suggest I had an alteria motive ?

Now, in relation to questions of a technical nature; I accept what you say as a fair comment, physical training is, in these instances by far the best way to learn however, being reasonably educated, fairly experienced in Aikido and posing a question relating to an Aiki aspect, I feel I'm quite capable of technical dialogue - If on the other hand people rather not divulge their knowledge then I fully respect that, rest assured I won't waste my time attempting further discussion such matters in the future.

All the best for the New Year

Nathan Scott
5th January 2006, 09:01
I've split as much as the off-topic posts as I could from this thread and posted them to the "Daito-ryu and Secrecy" thread. I also re-titled this thread, since after re-reading it I realized that the original poster was referring to a Hakuho-ryu seminar, not a Daito-ryu seminar.

Regards,

bwhite33
15th July 2008, 02:39
Hakuhoryu Aikibudo/Aikijujutsu
Hakuhoryu Midwest Fall 2008 Seminar Series
Featuring Okabayashi Shogen, Shihan, Hakuhoryu Japan

Saturday/Sunday, September 27th and 28th

Sponsored by the White Oak Martial Arts Center, Ann Arbor MI.

Open to any serious martial arts student, at any level.

Contact: EAH@AITpartners.com for location and reservation information

A.J. Bryant
9th August 2010, 21:50
This past weekend, our dojo hosted Rodney Uhler Sensei and Mitsuko Hashimoto-Uhler Sensei for a workshop on Ono-ha Itto-ryu Sokaku-den. Both are shihan in the Hakuho-ryu under Okabayashi Shogen sensei (formerly of the Takumakai), and Uhler sensei also holds menkyo in Ono-ha Itto-ryu Sokaku-den.

First, let me just say that I was thoroughly impressed with their knowledge, skill and humbleness. In short, they are the real deal. I wont bore everyone with a long recap, so heres the short and sweet version...

Friday Evening:

Friday evening, we had a short, unscheduled class on Hakuho-ryu Aikibudo (Okabayashi senseis branch of Daito-ryu) arranged by the Indianapolis Aikikai. Uhler sensei and Mitsuko sensei taught bushi no hokoho at length, which is coordinating ones lower and upper body in the manner of the bushi, rather than modern movement. This was followed up by detailed instruction in Ippon Dori, then several oyo henka, followed by a few other waza from the Ikkajo series. Everyone left with a new prospective on the differences (and a few similarities) between Hakuho-ryu (i.e. Daito-ryu), Aikido, and in my case, Hakko-ryu Jujutsu. I was personally surprised at how different Hakko-ryu is from Daito-ryu in many respects.

Saturday:

Saturday was a full day devoted to the odachi portion of the Gogyo no Kata, as practiced within Ono-ha Itto-ryu Sokaku-den. This set is the second series of kata taught to students (preceded by the Kendo no Kata) before learning the odachi kata of Ono-ha Itto-ryu. For more history on the Gogyo no Kata, George McCall has short write-up on his blog here (http://kenshi247.net/blog/blog/2008/09/04/before-kendo-no-kata/)

If I am not mistaken, Okabayashi senseis organization is the only group practicing these kata in the US, and they are extremely rare in Japan, so learning them was an exceptional treat, to say the least. The Gogyo no Kata contain many of the fundamental aspects of Itto-ryu and focus on graceful movement. Uhler sensei and Mitsuko sensei covered all five kata in great detail and explained what the strategic rationale was behind very portion of each kata. As Uhler sensei said (paraphrasing), the Gogyo no Kata are easy enough for beginners to learn, yet deep enough for experienced swordsmen... I couldnt agree more.

At the end, Uhler sensei and Mitsuko sensei demonstrated several kata from Ono-ha Itto-ryu Sokaku-den. A particularly special treat was to see the Hosshato and Kojo Gokui Goten kata demonstrated.

Overall, this was a wonderful seminar and I was honored to host these two exceptional teachers. I wholeheartedly recommend them and they sell excellent budo gear too, by the way: Nine Circles USA (http://www.ninecirclesusa.com)

JNavarro
10th August 2010, 02:25
I'm very glad that more people are getting a chance to experience Hakuho-ryu Aikibudo and Ono-ha Itto-ryu Sokaku-den. Currently, all dojos are located in Southeast Michigan, so it is a bit of a challenge to get more exposure.
We are also very happy that Rod Uhler Sensei and Mitsuko Uhler Sensei decided to move back to this side of the globe.
BTW, I also recommend their webpage. They sell some excellent budo gear. Specially iaito and shinken.

A.J. Bryant
10th August 2010, 11:57
Yes, buying a shinken from Uhler sensei was what led to the seminar here in Indianapolis. For the price, compared to other swords in that price range, it's really a no-brainer. The Nice Circles shinken are outstanding. I also got a chance to swing one of the stainless steal iaito. I wasn't expecting much (heavy, clumsy, etc), but these are really well-balanced and put together well, with much less chance of snapping at the habaki. They also double as habikito too.

I promised Uhler sensei I would do a review of the shinken, so look for that sometime soon outside of the Aikijujutsu forum. ;)