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hector gomez
20th November 2002, 20:29
Help me out guys,I am trying to find out the history of Oyamas kyokushins knockdown training methods.

I guess it is safe to say that aside from Yamaguchi,Oyama trained with other goju instructors and was exposed to different knockdown training methods that were in use in goju thru "IRIKUMI".


Did goju have a full contact knockdown method in okinawa or was this
method mostly a japaneese goju form of training?

Before tournament karate was standarized to the rules that we all know today,was karate competitions between universities similar to the kyokushin style of fighting?

Any info into this goju/kyokushin training method connection would be appreciated.


Hector Gomez

Goju Man
20th November 2002, 23:05
My theory would be that he learned something that may have come from Yamaguchi. Yamaguchi was I believe into sparring, and being that the Okinawans never found a way to do it with protective gear, I believe he may have picked up something from him. I'm not saying that iri kumi is knockdown fighting or anything like that, but more like Ashihara and Enshin have refined that type of fighting, Oyama may have been exposed to iri kumi and then modified it. I've seen some traditional Jiu Jitsu that looks a lot like Judo, with wrist locks, punching and other techniques, which would look like Kano just said hey let's work only the throws and not the other techniques. Just my thoughts. ;)

Harry Cook
21st November 2002, 00:18
Hector, I suspect that a major influence on the development of Kyokushinkai knockdown was the matches that Oyama's students had with Thai boxers, Tadashi Nakamura in his The Human face of Karate, Shufunotomo Co. Ltd, Japan 1989 refers to the matches he and others held in Bangkok. I interviewed Nakamura sensei over ten years ago for the now defunct Fighting Arts International magazine and I certainly got the impression that the idea of knockdown was derived to a large degree from Muay Thai.
Yours,
Harry Cook

Bustillo, A.
21st November 2002, 10:41
Hector,

I hadn't heard or read that Goju was the main influence of Oyama's KK bare-knuckle full-contact.

I read that Oyama borrowed ideas from Judo and Yamaoka Tesshu's consecutive matches.

If possible, please provide the the source leading to your question.

hector gomez
21st November 2002, 14:26
My friends,

I agree with most of you,I have always thought that kyokushin was very much influenced by muaythai along with the hard nose judo mentality applied to karate.

The problem I ran into was when I was researching this goju web page www.gojuryu.net/ and came across an autobiography of uchiage kenzo hanshi,at the bottom of his bio it states these exact words.


IT WAS AT THESE "LAST MAN STANDING"UNIVERSITY COMPETITIONS THAT MAS OYAMA (GOJURYU/KYOKUSHIN)WITNESSED AND DECIDED TO BEGIN HIS OWN STYLE OF KARATE DO SPECIALIZING IN KNOCK DOWN TYPE TRAINING.


Boy I read that and It baffled my understanding of kyokushin, I agree with Mr.cook on the muaythai connection and also tokon helpful info but I am just looking for the truth.I guess you cannot believe everything one reads on the net.


Hector Gomez


PS I hope you guys can download this page www.gojuryu.net/ Click on to historical outline and scroll down to uchiage kenzo hanshi check out the bottom paragraph of his bio.

Steven Malanosk
21st November 2002, 16:22
Ok,

Contrary to popular belief, Oyama Sosai, was actually not a direct student of Yamaguchi Sensei, but of Ne Chu So, who was also a Korean by blood.

So Shihan, was Yamaguchi Sensei's top bad guy.

Oyama Sosai, left the Funakoshi lineage due to boredom "according to Oyama." His rough and tumble antics, where a result of So's influence.

I am sure some of you old timers will remember the story of the College shiai between the GoJu and Shotokan teams, where So was so rough against his opponent, "I believe Funakoshi's son," that the Shotokan team walked out. "No dis meant to the Shotokan folks."

Yamaguchi Sensei got the kumite idea from KenDo.

Of course the original was very rough, with many injuries.

Oyama Sosai mixed Muai Thai JuDo and Jiu Kumite to form the Kenka KaraTe ideal.




and being that the Okinawans never found a way to do it with protective gear, I believe he may have picked up something from him.

Huh???????????? Ever hear of BoGu?

Harry Cook
21st November 2002, 16:35
It is certainly possible that Oyama could have known what went on at these "exchange of courtesy" sessions betwen the univerity dojos, and it is not impossible that he saw some of the events. From the accounts I have read and heard the "sparring' may have started out as some kind of controlled activity but it soon became a kind of all out brawl (those intersted in such things can find descriptions of kokan geiko in chapter 5 of my book on the history of Shotokan. So perhaps this was a factor in the development of knockdown fighting, but I still feel that the kind of techniques used by knockdown fighters - ie shins to the legs, knees close in etc resembles Muay Thai more than Okinawan/Japanese karate, but of course there will be influences from a number of sources.
Yours,
Harry Cook

MarkF
22nd November 2002, 11:19
It is certainly possible that Oyama could have known what went on at these "exchange of courtesy" sessions betwen the univerity dojos, and it is not impossible that he saw some of the events.

Last year, I received a PM from a former student of Oyama Mas which said (I am paraphrasing to get in Mr. Cook's description, otherwise it is accurate):

"Oyama Mas called these [exchange of courtesy] sessions 'Imparting Wisdom.'" He was referring to the full-contact, knock down fighting room.

I don't know squat about karate except what I have seen but that is one of the best descriptions of knockdown training I've ever heard or read.


Mark

Goju Man
23rd November 2002, 14:50
Huh???????????? Ever hear of BoGu?

Yep. Before bogu, there had been experimentation with kendo gear but students were still getting injured and the idea was discarded. I can't remember where I read that but being that you have lived there and trained with just about everyone on the rock and have gotten rank there (?) I think you would know that.;)

Harry, Tokon, nice info. Thanks.

Steven Malanosk
24th November 2002, 00:19
Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I fealt that, right through my BOGU!!!!!!

:p

Goju-Ryu
25th November 2002, 10:17
Originally posted by Goju Man


...there had been experimentation with kendo gear but students were still getting injured and the idea was discarded. I can't remember where I read that...

I think you read that in one of Morio Higaonna's books... "Traditional Karate-Do" or "The History of Goju-Ryu Karate-Do"

Sidarta
25th November 2002, 16:28
Originally posted by Goju Man


Yep. Before bogu, there had been experimentation with kendo gear but students were still getting injured and the idea was discarded. I can't remember where I read that but being that you have lived there and trained with just about everyone on the rock and have gotten rank there (?) I think you would know that.;)

Harry, Tokon, nice info. Thanks.

There is a book that, if my memory from old posts is right, had Mr. Harry Cook's (who posted above) participation in which that "bogu kumite" is mentioned. It's "The Fighting Arts, Choosing the Way", released by Rider. It says in the text that such practice was introduced in the 30's.
I am pretty sure I have a book at my parents'that mentions it too. When i have I chance i will check it out.

Cheers,

Sidarta de Lucca

Goju Man
27th November 2002, 01:46
Ski, I was experimenting with some keyboard meridians.:D
Just having fun guys.


I think it was in his book, I haven't had the time to re read it. Although some schools probably did keep it, I'm not sure. I can tell you that we did very hard kumite back in the day, wether it was from Goju, or KK, or wherever, the blood and bruises were plenty real.:cool:

Steven Malanosk
27th November 2002, 03:27
The art of keyboard meridian strikes "Cyber Atemi Waza," was introduced originally to Yama.comShi "Mountain Computer Geeks," by TenGu "Trolls."

It is believed that the Yama.comShi, passed on what they learned from the Tengu, to the modern day Kuchi Bushi, as an amplifier to their limited hit power.

It is important that any practitioner of keyboard meridian strikes, also master Cyber Katsu or Cyber Koppo, "the art of deleting."

It is a crashing art, but I believe rather than falling into obscurity, like so many of the Ko Ryu, it has been rebuilt, upgraded, and will be repropagated to the world, in its sport aspect, like a virus.

All of this historic information, came from a book that was never published by Tuttle, that Don Draeger never wrote.
:wave: :smilejapa :wave: