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Paihequan
22nd November 2002, 00:33
Does anybody on the E-Budo Forum practice or teach any aspect of Crane-Fist in either the Okinawan or Chinese forms???

fuwafuwausagi
23rd November 2002, 06:05
Yes...

TFB

Paihequan
24th November 2002, 00:57
Kevin,

In what form do you practice Crane-Fist ... Okinawan or Chinese? What forms (Kata/Taolu) do you do?

What attracted you to Crane-Fist?

fuwafuwausagi
24th November 2002, 05:13
Ron:

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything but this is a RyuKyu forum and I have yet to believe their is anything more than a fanciful connection between most Okinawan kara-te(M.Chinto being a notable exception) and Paihe quan. In other words I have to question the validity of this thread in a RyuKyu forum.

Personally I find all this karate/crane thrill-craze a bunch of nonsense.

So here is a summary of how I truly feel. If you have ever seen white crane jin expressed, how could anyone mistake that for Okinawan karate? I mean the Okinawans would have to be retarded or something to "botch" crane type energy transmission that bad. And I have a heck of a time believing there is any connection between the way Okinawan kara-te develops energy and white crane. I might believe Okinawan kara-te mantis or perhaps some Shaolin but crane...no way.

Having said that, let me clearly state that I love Okinawan kara-te, I also love crane. But I think they are two distinct animals without regard to the desire of a bunch of greedy hustlers trying to make a buck making people think otherwise.

A few years back one of the pressure point guys asked me to teach white crane principles at their winter camp. I went there and taught white crane. The karatekas there simply had little ability to absorb the information and about the only people who understood it and enjoyed the session where the Tai Chi players present and their instructor. To me, that says it all.

All the best,

TFB

kusanku
24th November 2002, 20:03
I do Okinawan karate, and ahve done some Taiji. I don't know any white crane. There sure is a difference in how Taiji expreses jin and Okinawan karate does it.I hear that White Crane soft stuff is identical to Taiji though. If so, that is very different indeed, from Okinawan karate styles which,themselves, differ in some ways in which they develop atemi, sharp striking power.

My understanding of White Crane is that they Phlap, something like the wings of a crane. Never seen an Okinawa te man Phlap, yet.Even in chinto.

My understanding of what styles are related to Shorin ryu is maybe Northern Shaolin, some suggest a connection with Hsing Yi,too.

Goju Ryu may be related in some ways to Wu Chu Ch'uan, Five Ancestors Fist, maybe Pa Kua and Pa Pan Ch'ang, too,or so it is suggested. I don't know for sure but looks as though it could have some connection.

Phlap.:DDouble Phlap.Beak.:D

Oss!

Paihequan
25th November 2002, 03:50
Gentlemen, to each his own.

Crane-Fist in the Chinese sense of things suits me.

Ja Pe
25th November 2002, 05:10
In reply to Kusanku's quote
My understanding of White Crane is that they Phlap, something like the wings of a crane. Never seen an Okinawa te man Phlap, yet.Even in chinto.

Are you familiar (being that you are an Okinawan te man expert!) with the kata Tensho? and more importantly the correct applications (bunkai)associated with the kata? Just to give you a bit more info on the principles of what Crane techniques represent Tensho is a perfect example. If you have a different interpretation, great! but understand your interpretation if the kata is done similar is the same as what is known as crane, At least in dynamics.

People can often be very mystic like when explaining techniques that are hard to descibe and so crane etc can be used as a picture or example of what is being explained.

I have been studying martial arts ,in particular okinawin/japanese styles, dedicated to the practical side and application for over 22yrs ( 2-4sessions per week + personal study and training).
I have come across "KNOCKERS LIKE YOU" too many times.

I am not defending anybody from this post nor do I know anybody on the forum at all.

Please for your own sake refrain from knocking what you don't understand. As if you where good at what you claim to represent you would understand there is more than one way to punch (or skin a cat)
You have shown you at least do not a a though understanding of Okinawan Karate, I won't even argue that point as I've been like I said studying a LONG time and have trained and learned from some very good instructors of MORE THAN JUST WORDS.

I do not knock you for not understanding but I do already have no respect for your comment to the initial fisrt post question!

Paihequan
25th November 2002, 06:48
Ja Pe:

Hi. Ithink that the E-Budo rules ask that you sign your name to your posts.

As for Kusanku, I think you'll find his comments were more "tongue -in-cheek" than thy were knocking the subject of Crane. You have to remember that there is a great deal of people "out there" who lay claim to doing Crane-Fist, many pararding around in a coat made from it's feathers.

Beyond Tensho is the form "Ba Bu Lien Er Lu" which is the original Chinese form from the Ryuryuko lineage said to have given rise to "Tensho". In it's proper form it contains many similarities with Goju's Tensho kata while following the basic pattern of Pah Puh Lien.

Ja Pe
25th November 2002, 09:09
I did not mean to come across as harsh as most reply post read.
And to to kusanku I do not intend any PERSONAL dis respect. I do though believe by knocking somthing you don't understand yourself is more detremental to oneself than it is to the person you are knocking!

If some guy wants to run around in a suit of feathers and teach what he believes to be crane style let him...And if he attracts students more the power to him ..he may just be onto something, it may not have any merit or depth but who's to say it's not.

Ron, in the other form you mention the pre-seeds Tensho, and may I add here that I have seen many many many forms of tensho!!!huhuh
So what type of bunkai are apparent in the form you speak of.
Is the form easy to read/interperate ie:can you see the applications leap out at you?
If you do this form do you practice more on solo/holistic or health approach or do you concentrate on the intent of the form in its true meaning of application.

Sorry for going around in circles the main question I'd like answered is:
What is the main theme of the applicationsor bunkai.

main reason I ask is I'm one who truley believes in learning a kata or form or what ever name it has, ONLY after I have certain affirmation of the effectivness of the application. Unfortunatly in my early training years I was filled with allot of USeLESS kata made more for show than application, thesedays I do train with a few GOOd martial artist from very varied disiplines.

The most knowlagable are the ones who earn respect by their actions not by thier tough words like "oh...but I learned from this guy who was taught by this guy and his grandfather had a brother who taught him, so 'I' must know what I'm talking about...." To me this person has spent to much time in history class trying to make up for their lack of physical talent and BELIEVE that by doing so history homwork makes them better martial artists.

I prefer to walk the walk, give credit where credit is due sure if you must but when it comes down to it, when it comes to the crunch the only person who can take the credit is yourself.For actually putting into practice what you've learned and well.
Being the pupil of a well known teacher or head of a style or great fighter doesn't give you are of their level.
Sorry to go on guys just can't get over the site in general.
I guess I'm glad we all have fists to back up our heated words at times!


Jay Pertage

25th November 2002, 10:53
Jay & Kevin,

I agree with many of the points you have made.

Like Kevin I don't buy into the new "White Crane/Karate" craze that has become popular over the years for the main fact that I have yet to see anyone say "OK, in Chinese White Crane you have this thing and this is where you can find it in Okinawan karate". To date nobody has come out with any sort of demo tape that shows just exactly how White Crane and Karate are connected. I for one am only marginally curious to see one as I have no doubt Chinese arts influenced Okinawan arts to some degree, it is doubtful we will ever know how much. In the "big picture" what does it really matter? Not much really............it might be a good marketing ploy to sell books and such but it won't change the effectiveness of what I do. I prefer to concentrate on what is in front of me rather than what "might" have been.



Originally posted by Ja Pe

I prefer to walk the walk, give credit where credit is due sure if you must but when it comes down to it, when it comes to the crunch the only person who can take the credit is yourself.For actually putting into practice what you've learned and well.
Being the pupil of a well known teacher or head of a style or great fighter doesn't give you are of their level.

I agree. Technique talks and BS walks.



Originally posted by Ja Pe
I guess I'm glad we all have fists to back up our heated words at times!


This I don't agree with.
No reason to get in a fight over someone's heated words or something someone says on these forums..........just not that important.

CEB
25th November 2002, 15:00
Originally posted by Paihequan


...
Beyond Tensho is the form "Ba Bu Lien Er Lu" which is the original Chinese form from the Ryuryuko lineage said to have given rise to "Tensho". In it's proper form it contains many similarities with Goju's Tensho kata while following the basic pattern of Pah Puh Lien.


I'm told Ba Bu Lien Er Lu doesn't look any more like Tensho than the two version of Happoren I am familiar with.

Who is this man you credit with being Ryuryuko? Is it Xie Zhangxiang? That seems to be a popular choice thanks to the work of Patrick McCarthy but I don't know if I buy in to that. Below is something I posted on the vital point forum in response to your posted your annoucement that you teach the 'original goju but you didn't respond to it. I was asking you who you thought Ryuryuko, the man you credit as being the source of 'Original Goju, was.

So do you think Xie Zhangxiang is Ryuryuko or is it someone else?

Note: I now have two set of histories of Ryuei Ryu that conflict I also have some other info from Okinawa on Ryuei Ryu that I need to try to reconcile before I comment further on the subject. I'm am just short on time today so I am doing a lazy cut and paste. Take care and have a good week.

Ed Boyd


From http://budogeeks.tzo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=140

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xie Zhangxiang according to the books lived from 1852-1930. Higashionna Kanyro lived 1853-1915. It has been recorded that Higaoshionna Kanyro described Ryuryuko as an old man but Xie was only a year or so older than Higaonna. It appears that the kata that Higaoshionna taught his students were Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseru and Suparinpei. Higashionna's decendants claim he only spent 3 years in China so I don't know if he would have learned that much in 3 years. Remember the old saying "3 years Sanchin."

Before going to China Higashionna was a student of Aragaki Seisho. I believe Higaoshionna's tode came from Aragaki. There are a couple of sources that document how Aragaki's people demonstrated their martial arts at a festival celebrating the acension of the last Okinawian king. I don't have my books with me but I believe it was March 1867. This was before Higaoshionna went to China. The accounts mention Suparinpei and Sanseru being demonstarted I believe.

Miyagi in Historical Outline of Karate-do from 1936 discussed how much of karate's history was a mystery but the only statement Miyagi Sendai seems to really make with conviction concerning the history of Goju is:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"In the mean time, there is the only opinion we can trust. It is as follows: In 1828 , our ancestors inherited a Gung-fu style of Fujian province in China. They continued their studies and formed Goju-Ryu karate. Even today, there still exists an orthodox group which inherited genuine and authentic Goju-Ryu karate."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Is this Ryuryuko's legacy? Was he the source I have no idea but this would make him an old man by the late 1870's.




Norisato Nakaima founder of Ryuei-Ryu was also a student of Ryuryuko. Ryuei-Ryu also practice Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Seiunchin. Their forms are somewhat simililar to Goju. I was looking for information on Norisato Nakaima and I found on a Ryuei Ryu website that: (http://karate.ucsd.edu/history.shtml)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Norisato Nakaima was born on December 11th, 1819 at Kume village in Naha. He is the grand grandfather og 5th generation, Kenji Nakaima, and orginated Ryuei-ryu.
....
After one-year of preparation, Norisato went to China to practice Chinese martial arts at the age of 19.He went to Beijing via Fukushu, Fukuken-sho, which used to be the gateway to Okinawa. He became a student of Master Ru Ru Ko, the Shihan at the Military School of the Ching Dynasty with the introduction of the general.
.....
After Norisato practiced all day long for several years with Master Ru Ru Ko, he finally received a certificate of graduation and returned to Okinawa when he was 26.

After Norisato's death (1819-1879, 61 years old), Ryuei-ryu passed its skills to the third, Kenchu (1856-1953, 98 years old), the fourth, Kenko (1911-1989, 79 years old), and the fifth, Kenji (1934-). "
----------------------------------------------------------------------

If he did get his menyo from Ryuryuko at age 26 and if his birth year is correct then this put us at 1845, which is 8 years before Xie was born. That a lot of ifs but it is something I have been thinking about.


At least knowing the existence of Ryuei Ryu and it similarities to Goju and its shared lineage makes me believe Ryuryuko exists. For a brief period I started to think he may have just been some sort of legend created for some who knows what kind of reason. Nonetheless I think the core forms of Goju Ryu were on Okinawa long before Higashionna went to China but I guess that still doesn't rule out Ryuryuko as the source but right now I don't think Xie Zhangxiang was the person taught Higashionna. But who knows I may change my mind on all of this as I learn more about it.

kusanku
25th November 2002, 21:30
Hi Guys.:D

Someone named Jay who says he has no personal disrespect for me, but that I don't know Okinawan karate or anything of value at all, glad you don't disrespect me personally, then says he got fists to back his talk, gee whiz Jay, that isn't wuite the atitude I learend in thirty eight years of martial arts:-), thirty of them in Okinawan karate of three styles,but hey, to each his own-

Anyway, Jay says he can tell this about me from one post, that I don't know what I am talking about. Heck, Ron got it in one, I was kidding, not attacking White Crane Kung Fu, a fine art.But too,I do know that Okinawan karate and white crane kung fu, do use two completely different power generation methods, and flap, double flap and beak, are in fact, White crane power generation methods or Jin patterns.

Jay, before you step in here any deeper, please do me a favor; do a Google search on Kissaki-Kai Malaysia, go to that site, and read the articles, last in the articles section, on Vengel-Kai one through ten, then come back and tell me what I don't know.

Perhaps you will be so kind after reading them, as to tell me wherein I have erred in my understanding of the effective aplications of Okinawan and Japanese Karate Kata.

As for tensho, I been doing that kata for twenty-six years.As for applications of tensho, they are pretty obvious, striking, cover and repel, which are crane principles but not necessarily done as in Tensho, and reversals of grabs and entry to locks, as well as dissoves from chin na, and kyusho attacks. These however, can be found in many Okinawan kata, including some which many find useless because they do not understand what they are doing.:D

If what you say is true, I better give my Fifth dan back to mon teacher, and start all over again.Durn. Here I thought I was actually learning some real karate, too.But heck, now I find out, I don't even know what I'm doing and am all talk and no action. plus I got no fists to back me up case I am challenged.Where did mon fists go, ennyway?:D

Poor poor pitiful me.Sniff.

CEB
25th November 2002, 21:43
Originally posted by kusanku
....
I got no fists to back me up case I am challenged.
...


Then I would use a crobar or maybe a baseball bat. Always worked for me. But, I really prefer the 3 foot crobar.

kusanku
25th November 2002, 22:37
Ed, that sounds good to me. I shell hold it in mon teeth and spin it as in Matayoshi Kobudo to defend mine impinged upon honor.:D

Advantage of the three foot crobar is that it won't break if you hit on the seal as a Louisville slugger somnetimes will, plus the aluminum bats are no good.Crobars, now, that's a real weapon, stand up to a lot of abuse.:D

Thanks, Buddy!

Paihequan
26th November 2002, 00:18
Ja Pe:A little word of advice ... don't take everything to heart. The arts while important are not the be all and end all. Have a laugh at the arts and yourself now and then. It helps to keep one grounded in the real world. Kusanku was only having a little bit of fun over the whole "White Crane" scene and to be honest I have to agree with him and Robert in that it certianly seems to be a bit of a joke at the present time.


I guess I'm glad we all have fists to back up our heated words at times!

Whoa! Who said anything about knuckling up! Relax as Robert said there is nothing posted on these boards worth going down that path.

As for its connection to Okinawan Karatedo well I have to agree with Robert, Kusanku etc ..... it does not seem to be all that much of a real connection especially in the area of technique, forms and the essence or core principles of the art. I think the connection is found more in lore than in the real art.

Ed as for the Ryuryuko connection, I can only go on the form as it came down to me:


Master Huang Sheng-Shyan also learnt Fujian White Crane directly from Xie Zhong-Xiang, from the age of 14. After a few years of personal tutorage, Huang Sheng-Shyan still only in his late teens, was sent by Xie Zhong-Xiang to study full-time for two years with his eldest disciple Ch’en Shih Ting.In 1930 Master Huang went on to train with another famous White Crane exponent P’an Ch’un-Nien, who also began teaching him the use of medicinal herbs, and stimulated an interest in Huang for other Chinese Martial Arts. In pursuit of these Huang Sheng-Shyan moved to Shanghai, where he first began teaching White Crane. Ba Bu Lian Er Lu is considered by this school to be the form which gave rise to Goju Karatedo’s “Tensho” form.

You raise some very good points worth considering. The form as I know it does closely resemble the Pah Puh Lien (Happoren/Paipuren) in its basic pattern but interestingly does contain a sequence to the left and right that closely resembles Goju's Tensho.

fuwafuwausagi
26th November 2002, 05:44
Ron wrote:

Gentlemen, to each his own.

Crane-Fist in the Chinese sense of things suits me.

My reply:

Hey Ron, I wasn't trying to slam you or hurt your feelings. Obviously I would not practice crane if I did not like it and value it. My point was I just am having a hard time drawing such a firm connection between the Okinawan Martial Art practices and Chinese based crane (or Tibetan for that matter).

All the best,

CEB
26th November 2002, 21:30
Originally posted by Paihequan

Master Huang Sheng-Shyan also learnt Fujian White Crane directly from Xie Zhong-Xiang, from the age of 14. After a few years of personal tutorage, Huang Sheng-Shyan still only in his late teens, was sent by Xie Zhong-Xiang to study full-time for two years with his eldest disciple Ch’en Shih Ting.In 1930 Master Huang went on to train with another famous White Crane exponent P’an Ch’un-Nien, who also began teaching him the use of medicinal herbs, and stimulated an interest in Huang for other Chinese Martial Arts. In pursuit of these Huang Sheng-Shyan moved to Shanghai, where he first began teaching White Crane. Ba Bu Lian Er Lu is considered by this school to be the form which gave rise to Goju Karatedo’s “Tensho” form.


I don't see where any of this connects Xie Zhong-Xiang to Higaoshionna Kanyro or original Goju. It seems like an unknown to me, sort of like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop.

Ja Pe
26th November 2002, 23:09
I guess I'm glad we all have fists to back up our heated words at times!

OK guys I must applaud your values for picking me up here...
May I add into context a more relevent meaning as I meant it.

So many martial artists talk the talk and discredit techniques of other martial systems, a more friendly version of, have fists to back up words, is more the ability to demonstrate the effectiveness or ineffectivness of any technique/s in real physical terms rather than words. I did not mean to imply any resort of Violence. ( I did try to edit the post with changes but it was too late by the time I went to re post). I use my fists everyday ---without violence :)

Kevin if I seemed to have taken you out of context, my appologys to you. After reading you post on your understanding of Phap Phap etc
I can now see you DO have an understanding. And being that you are in some way assosiated in a Vince Morris assosiation or there of, I respect your integraty in that you do understand.
when I was first initially reading your post you wrote
quote
I don't know any white crane.
then went on in saying
quote
My understanding of White Crane is that they Phlap, something like the wings of a crane. Never seen an Okinawa te man Phlap, yet.

My relpy was based on that, I do now realise you where maybe in jest.

:D


Jay Pertage

Paihequan
26th November 2002, 23:46
Kevin No offence taken. I just simply meant that each of us has our own personal likes and dislikes when it comes to the martial arts (and life!).

What Crane-Fist do you practice/pursue? Is it Okinawan? What forms (if any) do you do?



Ed Sorry but I can't make it any clearer other than to say the form (Ba Bu Lien Er Lu) has merit

kusanku
27th November 2002, 00:19
Ja Pe-
I think you meant me, John, not Kevin, but I appreciate your intent.When I say I do not know any white crane, I have felt their techniques, and read books on the arts, I simply mean I do not know it in the sense of practicing it, as I do some other arts. I thought that the reading of the articles on the Kissaki Kai website of my friend Vincent Choo would clarify certain things , and I see that it did.

Ron is right, we all got to have some fun every now and again.And the white crane scene re Okinawan karate has, as he says, gotten a bit silly, with some people claiming to , for instance, have been taught something like eighteen white crane kata by Hohan Soken when others say, he did one, and it may not be from China anyway, myself, I don't know.

What Ed is asking, the nature of exact tracing of course betwen whoever Ryuruko was, and I got here, no clue, and Higaonna Sensei, again, I don't know, and whatever that was taught to him , in China.

Tensho may be based on some things in Bubishi or come from elsewhere.I don't know here, either.

What do I know, then?The articles on that and several other sites, basically present in a Shotokan specific or even a generic setting, a few basic priciples about bunkai, oyo, etc.

Vince asks a question on his intro to the articles site, where he says he wonders what I have on the back burner. The answer to that is , things built on that basic foundation, and some style-specifi applications priciples and techniques which require specific traing in a specific style or styles, sometimes up to a fairly advanced level to even make them work, so I don't include those, and some other things that are very simple and very nasty that I also don't include for that reason.

What I mainly want is for karate people to understand that in the classical kata, are contained certain defensive and counterroffensive priciples, techniques , tactics and even strategies, that make what they practice, shall we say, more efficient and more effective than they otherwise may perceive.

Now, White Crane Theory as I understand it, and that would be from Southern Crane styles that I have encountered or read about, as in Yang, Jwing-Ming's book,is that power patterns or jin patterns are taught first, with qigong, and then actual techniques, and that the first few forms in a system are made of these jin patterns, and that only the later forms actually contain specific techniques.

This would appear to eb somehwat different than most Okinawna systems, but may be not, as tensho for instance appears to be made of jin patterns.

Yet most Okinawan katas appear to contain more specific techniques.
With multiple levels of application to be sure.

Anyway, yes, I was making a joke, with the Phlap, phlap, beak stuff.
Got to have fuin sometimes.

Take care fellers,

CEB
27th November 2002, 02:04
Originally posted by Paihequan


Ed Sorry but I can't make it any clearer other than to say the form (Ba Bu Lien Er Lu) has merit

No need to be sorry. I'm sure the form has merit. The version of Happoren i was taught and Kakuho has merit to but I don't have enough time in invest on them to ever really come out of the dance. Maybe if win the lotto I will be able have more free time. They are interesting but right now my time is better spent on Goju Ryu proper.

I am always interested in possible connections to Goju Ryu and looking at the principles of the possible influences.

I forget that not everybody isn't the the same culture I'm from. In case some of you didn't understand the tootsie roll pop thing. It goes back to a candy comercial when I was young. The metaphor just refers to the mystery of history.

fuwafuwausagi
27th November 2002, 05:08
It was written:

with some people claiming to , for instance, have been taught something like eighteen white crane kata by Hohan Soken when others say, he did one, and it may not be from China anyway

My reply:

Oh no...a reference to "goat-boy", Master of the Ozarks...LOL!!!

Paihequan
27th November 2002, 05:24
Kusanku is right. Most traditional Crane-Fist (Paihequan) is taught firstly via the development of understanding Jin and then this is further expanded upon with applications then the forms from which the applications arise. This is different to the Okinawan and Japanese way which is to teach the forms then the applications of same.

Tensho or Ba Bu Lien Er Lu as I know it is largely a Jin training form. It carries on from the lessons and energy development learnt in Pah Puh Lien with these lessons given a more practical edge within the follow up Ba Bu Lien Sam Lu form.

As for the "Goat-Boy" reference .... I'm afraid I'm lost on that one!:p

fuwafuwausagi
27th November 2002, 05:38
Ron directed this query to me:

What Crane-Fist do you practice/pursue? Is it Okinawan? What forms (if any) do you do?

My reply:

Well that is a tough question to answer. My first exposure to crane arts occurred in the early 70's...which is to say I have had time to sample a "few", and I cannot say they are all the same.

But my primary exposure was from prawn boxing, an internal-external system which has no "forms" in the sense of a kata like thing.

That being said I utilize a Chinese sanchin form, that is very similar to the one practiced in 5 ancestor fist as well as two other forms that apparently are found in 5 ancestor fist. I also utilize a Ancestral Crane form, and a Flying crane form. This is what those whom chose to study with me "learn".

They have the option of learning White Ape or any of several Crane forms of 5 animal Shaolin origin but that is more of a personal affinity thing..

Personally I like the Matsubayashi chinto form. I have jin-ed that puppy up, and have a blast with it. I have a special fondness for it as it holds dear memories for me as one of earlier crane exposure (around 1976-1978) came when a Shaolin proponent observed the form and commented he thought it was a White Crane kata. I studied with him for quite some time. So it is special to me and takes me back to a time when life was a bit simpler for me.

However "our/my" crane theory come directly from my Shaolin lineage and everything I practice fits that model.

Where as every one seems to run around talking sink-swallow-spit my lineage considers that a sub component of our tenets or pillars which are:

Chuan
Chan
Shan
Tsieh

All the best,

fuwafuwausagi
27th November 2002, 05:45
Ron wrote:

As for the "Goat-Boy" reference .... I'm afraid I'm lost on that one!

My reply:

Oh come on, you have to know whom this is. I'll give you a clue. On "MASH" Hawkeyes buddy had the same last name.

Paihequan
27th November 2002, 06:08
Kevin,

Thanks for your reply.

Yes I guess that Five Ancestor (Ngo Cho Kun) has a stronger "Crane" to "Karate" connection than the Paihequan I have been exposed to.

I found your reference to Prawn Boxing (Duixia Quan) interesting as the Taiji I have done also uses a method known as "Dragon-Prawn Boxing" which in itself is very similar to the Crane methods of life-protection.

What lineage is your "Feihequan" Flying Crane form .... Chinese or Okinawan?

Can you tell me a little more about the forms you use? (Very interested).

I teach the following:

* Yong Chun Kuen (Yong Chun village Lineage).
* Pah Puh Lien (Minghequan Whooping Crane Lineage)
* Ba Bu Lien Er Lu (Xie Zhong Xiang / Huang Sheng-Shyan Lineage)
* Ba Bu Lien Sam Lu Wu Xianhui
* Zhongkuang (Wu Xianhui Lineage)
* Cai Baihequan (Cai / Kojo Lineage)
* Ershibada (Xie Zhong Xiang / Huang Sheng-Shyan Lineage)
* Wohng Shan Hequan (Cai / Wudangshan Lineage)

Please feel free to contact me care of my direct e-mail as I'd like to discuss things further in detail with you:

tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

As for "Goat-Boy" I believe I now know who you were discussing. Is it he who cliams Machimura has a large number of "Crane" forms?

fuwafuwausagi
27th November 2002, 07:48
Ron wrote:

As for "Goat-Boy" I believe I now know who you were discussing. Is it he who cliams Machimura has a large number of "Crane" forms?

My reply:

I am sure you do; he knows forms so secret even he does not know them...LOL!!!

Paihequan
27th November 2002, 23:10
Kevin,

I thought he was a Matsumura stylist?

fuwafuwausagi
28th November 2002, 10:03
Ron:

Yes he is. But he claims something like 18 secret White Crane forms or some similar uncorroborated nonsense.

Paihequan
29th November 2002, 01:19
Kevin,

Wow 18 Forms! And here am poor little I only with 8 forms:p

fuwafuwausagi
29th November 2002, 04:37
Only eight crane forms??? Ron you must meet Master Chuck Chandler; why he has over, well now I am not sure, but it is probably measured in scores...LOL!!!

Tatsu
29th November 2002, 12:20
I guess we have a consensus opinion here. Okinawan karate has no connection to White Crane Chuan Fa, whether Norhthern or Southern schools. I like to research things. Can you give me some of this concrete proof that what Hohan Soken, Shuguro Nakazato and other great masters have said for forever was an embellishment or lie? You are saying that everyone should take your words for it, because all of you are more knowledgeable of Okinawan Karate history than these Grandmasters. Why would these senseis even mention the Crane-Ti connection in the first place? White Crane isn't considered superior to many forms of Chinese boxing. Especially the Nejia or "internal arts".

Now, some scheisters have devised a way to milk this "fact" of karate history by formulating "Hakutsuru" forms and panning them off as Soken's Hakustsuru. Senseis like mine have created "Hakutsusru" forms from an amalgamation of Okinawan and White Crane Chuan Fa techs.. He has worked with White Crane Kung Fu shifu in order to get these "crane" aspects right. He never claimed that the "White Crane Kata" were Hohan Soken's or anyone elses. These are supplementary forms. The traditional seito kata are paramount and training in them is continuous.

He is a 7th Dan that has reached a culmination of years (35+ continuous) of training, and decided to expound on the White Crane principles as taught to him and others by Kise, Kinjo and Soken in the 60s! He definitley is good enough, has paid his dues, and has enough tenure to do this. This ain't some part-time bushi wanna-be. This is someone who strives and trains everyday to perfect his love- Shuri Te.

So talk to guys like Coffman, Lindsey and Tatum. They are real, they are not rich or wanting of fame. I know these "Crane Dreamers" and they are educated (former military officers that served in 'Nam) and can use that "phony" stuff you guys know so much about, for the reals.

As for the masters and the crane "myth"; you mean they have been perpetuating this "lie" for half a century? Why not make the connection to Shaolin, exclusively? There are crane techs in Shaolin Chuan Fa. It is probably a more comprehensive fighting art. If karate is hard and soft, where do these "internal" principles come from? You mean Goju and Uechi have a lock on this "softness" due to their "Chineseness"? When do you learn them in ShuriTe styles, and through what teaching methodology? Japanese budo concepts? Hmmm.... Partially yes, but completely, no.

BTW, how do you know that the Crane that is taught now, is the same Crane that was taught then? Oh because the many "capitalist" sifus on Taiwan said so. Oh I see. Anyway, no one said that Okinawan Karate is 100% Crane, just that many Crane principles abound in the forms. Understand Kunsanku, Rohai and Gojushiho. reevaluate from a "mixture of martial principles" perspective. Understand that each day is a new chance to learn something. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't make it untrue. I shouldn't really care what anyone thinks anywhat. It doesn't diminish or enhance my ability in any way.

I study Matsumura Seito, and I like it. I boxed and I liked it. Judo was fun and BJJ very refreshing and practical. Shorinkan was an awesome style. I would like to meet all of you one day and learn your perspectives and see if you can make them work like Senseis Lindsey, Kise and Coffman. I haven't met or trained with anyone stateside who could use their "karate" effectively. It took me over 12 years to find someone who could do what they were professing. In that time only the GJJ people were able to prove that their MA was more "decisive" and street functional than strictly sport stuff like wrestling. Most of the karate I've seen stateside is B.S., just a lame attempt at kickboxing. Sorta' like the GJJ-wrestling comparison. If all you have is "block-then-punch-then-block-then-kick" karate then you guys are right. There is no crane in that linear type of robot fighting. I do agree with you guys there.

<Peace>

Kevin73
29th November 2002, 15:04
I have a question about Hohan Soken. What are the claims about his Crane Kata? I remember first hearing about them in "Complete Aikido" where the author (Roy Suenaka) talked about learning some from Soken.

It gave a very brief history of them and said that they were a family kata that was Okinawan in nature. It didn't give reference that they were Chinese, but made it sound that they were created by an Okinawan. They were the Hakutsuru ones.

Paihequan
30th November 2002, 00:40
Kevin: Yeah, only 8 forms from traditional Paihequan (Crane-Fist) ...... and no thanks, I have no desire to meet Chandler LOL!:p

Tatsu: I don't recall where any of us posting on this thread said we were "experts" ...... we are simply seekers.

I feel that there is a Crane connection to some Okinawan Karate but its not as obvious nor as strong as some styles like to put across. Of all the myriad of styles making this claim, Matsumura (Machimura Suide) is probably the one who has the most claim. This is especially evident if one looks to the Shihequan or Feeding Crane tradition. What is interesting is your reference to Nejia or "internal arts". The Sifu of the Wudangshan believe there is a strong connection between Chang Sanfeng's Taiji (as well as Bagua & Xingyi) to many southern Chinese arts including Crane-Fist. This is evident in the Ershibada form (also known as "Chang's Southern Speed Fist").

You mentioned that your Sensei's have "created" their own Hakutsuru forms from a synthesis of Okinawan and Chinese Ch'uan-fa .... more power to them. However I have to ask why create Crane Forms when their are already a number of traditional Crane-Fist forms (Taolu) in existence?

You wrote:


that "phony" stuff you guys know so much about, for the reals.


I am sure that I can speak for Kevin (Fluffy Bunny) that what he teaches is not the "phony" stuff. If you re-read the posts in this thread you will see that he, like I, gave a reasonably clear explanation of the forms we pursue. I teach a limited numbeer of forms arising from a family style out of Taiwan that shall simply remain nameless as is their wish. And please let me assure you that these are not the "Capitalist" Sifu's as referenced in your post.

Your welcome to join in the discussion taking place and I for one would certianly like to know more about the Crane forms you use.:)


Kevin73:Most of the claims about Soken Hohan's Hakutsuru have been made by others sometimes accurate, sometimes not. Soken referred to Hakutsuru in a interview one describing it as his favourite kata. It is my personal belief that Soken Sensei only had one Hakutsuru and my experiences on Okinawa left me with the feeling that it was closely related to the Feeding Crane style due to the fact that Soken himself had several exchanges with Taiwanese Shihequan Boxers. Some feel that the Hakutsuru seen in the Matsumura style is not Matsumura but in fact a creation of Soken himself. Either way, it is a brilliantly composed form.

kusanku
30th November 2002, 01:47
Bryan-
It wouldn't do you any good for me to tell you my stuff works, as anone can make any claim they want to , on here.Buyt my stuff does work, it comes from Okinawan sources,m the Okinawan stuff that is, and no one said Okinawan karate didn't have crane movement and thinking in it, just that what is done on Okinawa is not White Crane as done in China now or two huindred fifty years ago, which we know from Bubishi.

Okinawan karate got some relation to Shaolin styles, which have tiger, snake, dragon, leopard and crane in them, but White Crane is a more modern and specialized style or styles, that use things that, whenever Okinawan karate was formulated, did not exist as such .

Hakutsuru kata is an Okinawan form possibly inspired by seeing Chinese Crane Boxer Gogenki perform his stuff on Okinawa,or possibly from other sources.But its done as a shuri te form or naha te form, depending on whose you do.

Now, having done Jiujitsu, judo, aikido, taijiquan, aikibudo, kempo, and karate, for thirty eight years,and having when younger had some small experience in real situations, I know what works very erffectively for me, and what does not,and have taught others to be effective.I do not know or do, White Crane Kung Fu, I do Shorin Ryu Karate.The kata in shorin as I do them, that have Okinawan crane influence in them, are:Pinan Five,Wankan, Rohai, Chinto.Leopard, Naihanchi One-Three, Pinan One,fukyu gata ni.Tiger, Fukyu Gata ichi,Pinan Nidan,Ananku, Gojushiho.Snake, Pinan Three,Wanshu, Passai.Dragon,Pinan Four,Kusanku, with kusanku also containing many elements of all animal forms, as the others may also contain parts of others as well.

But these are Okinawan, not Chinese, animal usage. Some also classify Gojushiho kata as Phoenix, with Naihanchi as well.

The animals are ways of thinking about attributes that each kata develops.

As for your sensei, I have heard he is very proficient, as for what Okinawan masters have said, most I heard of say, the kata are Okinawan, based perhaps on Chinese forms.

As for not meeting any karateka stateside that can use their art, I humbly assure you that they do exist.But most refrain from seeking publicity, as when people find out they can really bug you all the time, seminar here, go there, and so on.

Some do share some knowledge, sometimes on the internet.But many attack, many sneer, and many do not believe that there could have been a lineage transmission of effective okinawa ti through Americans. Yet, there are such transmissions, and we aren't all linear robot fighters, some of us aren't fighters at all, just karateka with an interest in effective self defense.

Personally, I am tired of all the krap that people throw when someone says, hey fellas, try this.The proof is in the doing.What I have done so many times, when faced in person with people who tell me this or that art is real fighting and any others including mine, are not, is say, 'Attack.'

When they get back up,. they always apologize.Sometimes, they may even have their eyes opened.After getting them closed first.

But you know, at my age, I am about done with it all, except my own practice.
So, lets keep it polite here, shall we?

Paihequan
30th November 2002, 01:51
Sadly its seems the subject of Crane-Fist and Okinawan Karate in its various forms is an emotive issue.

John: Good post, well said!

Tatsu
30th November 2002, 02:47
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paihequan
Kevin: Yeah, only 8 forms from traditional Paihequan (Crane-Fist) ...... and no thanks, I have no desire to meet Chandler LOL!:p

Tatsu: I don't recall where any of us posting on this thread said we were "experts" ...... we are simply seekers.

As are we all. Expert seekers.

Tatsu: I feel that there is a Crane connection to some Okinawan Karate but its not as obvious nor as strong as some styles like to put across. Of all the myriad of styles making this claim, Matsumura (Machimura Suide) is probably the one who has the most claim. This is especially evident if one looks to the Shihequan or Feeding Crane tradition. What is interesting is your reference to Nejia or "internal arts".

Yes I would agree, but all styles of ShuriTe and NahaTe are Crane influenced. Not to say they look and behave exactly as Crane (whether Fukienese,Tibetan, etc.), but the sensei that taught us have stated this fact way before any crane phenomenon or even the release of the "Karate Kid". That's the facts. As for the internal influence, I just don't see it in most karate. All I see is hard, harder and constipated. Even the light and fast styles are linear and "unrelaxed", from the beginning levels on up. That's also a truism. Goju has many soft "elements" as does Uechi, but the reality is that most of that "softer" Naha stuff is actually very anti-Nejia.

Tatsu: You mentioned that your Sensei's have "created" their own Hakutsuru forms from a synthesis of Okinawan and Chinese Ch'uan-fa .... more power to them. However I have to ask why create Crane Forms when their are already a number of traditional Crane-Fist forms (Taolu) in existence?

I don't know. You could've asked Shinshii Kuda why he developed "new" kata for his Matsumura Kenpo. The same can be said for Ashihara Karate in Japan, so on, ad nauseum. After years of studying a particular system and its methodology, an advanced instructor may wish to expand on his styles principles, w/o totally forsaking the style by taking up lessons in another art, PaiheQuan or otherwise. Shorin is an amalgam, not exclusively Shaolin, Crane, Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu or Ti. That's the facts.

Yoshimasa Matsuda, Hanshi of Shorinkan lineage, is a well versed grappler (All-Okinawa Kodokan Judo Champ) and he formulated the "Myobuken Kata" which emphasizes throws/takedowns/sweeps and groundfighting. He did this b/c he had the knowledge and wherewithall. He coulda' used the Kodokan Kata, but he wanted it to fit with his standup. I dunno. Everybody ain't John, Ron or whoever.

I am sure that I can speak for Kevin (Fluffy Bunny) that what he teaches is not the "phony" stuff. Your welcome to join in the discussion taking place and I for one would certianly like to know more about the Crane forms you use.:)

I was talking about the claims you've made on several forums that Sensei Lindsey's Crane forms are bogus. I just wanted to make it clear to you guys that that "phony/fake/bogus" stuff is very effective when he applies it for real. Not an indictment of your forms or prowess, but obviously some guilt allowed you to misread my take. I practice the Crane influenced forms of traditional ShuriTe. Maybe, I should check that. I train in the Shaolin/White Crane/Jigen Ryu/Ti influenced Shorin Forms of Lindsey's lineage. I know you guys hate the lineage stuff, but there is something to be said for tried and true credentials and connections to them.

One last bit. White Crane as taught on Taiwan, involves almost all "hands". The kicks are few and far between. Okinawan Karate has always been primarily a "hands" art. There were no spinning kicks, jumping kicks, roundhouses or even kicks above the waist. What most of the world practices is the Japanese brand, regardless of lineage. This is also fact, so why should you guys react to old style karate and its history any differently than practically the rest of humanity?
Hope this helps clarifies things a little.

Bye-bye all...

Tatsu
30th November 2002, 03:18
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kusanku
Bryan-
It wouldn't do you any good for me to tell you my stuff works, as anone can make any claim they want to , on here.Buyt my stuff does work, it comes from Okinawan sources,m the Okinawan stuff that is, and no one said Okinawan karate didn't have crane movement and thinking in it, just that what is done on Okinawa is not White Crane as done in China now or two huindred fifty years ago, which we know from Bubishi.

Okinawan karate got some relation to Shaolin styles, which have tiger, snake, dragon, leopard and crane in them, but White Crane is a more modern and specialized style or styles, that use things that, whenever Okinawan karate was formulated, did not exist as such .

So White Crane hasn't been around for hundreds of years?

Hakutsuru kata is an Okinawan form possibly inspired by seeing Chinese Crane Boxer Gogenki perform his stuff on Okinawa,or possibly from other sources.But its done as a shuri te form or naha te form, depending on whose you do.

Did Hohan Soken tell you this? Are you a MastuMURA stylist?

Now, having done Jiujitsu, judo, aikido, taijiquan, aikibudo, kempo, and karate, for thirty eight years,and having when younger had some small experience in real situations, I know what works very erffectively for me, and what does not,and have taught others to be effective.I do not know or do, White Crane Kung Fu, I do Shorin Ryu Karate.The kata in shorin as I do them, that have Okinawan crane influence in them, are:Pinan Five,Wankan, Rohai, Chinto.Leopard, Naihanchi One-Three, Pinan One,fukyu gata ni.Tiger, Fukyu Gata ichi,Pinan Nidan,Ananku, Gojushiho.Snake, Pinan Three,Wanshu, Passai.Dragon,Pinan Four,Kusanku, with kusanku also containing many elements of all animal forms, as the others may also contain parts of others as well. But these are Okinawan, not Chinese, animal usage. Some also classify Gojushiho kata as Phoenix, with Naihanchi as well.

And the okinawans adopted these ideas from the Chinese. C'mon now....

The animals are ways of thinking about attributes that each kata develops.

Oh, so you have proof of this. That is the essence of fighting they learned from the Chinese.

As for your sensei, I have heard he is very proficient, as for what Okinawan masters have said, most I heard of say, the kata are Okinawan, based perhaps on Chinese forms.

Don't take the masses' word for it. Ask him to teach a seminar at your school and experience it first hand. Maybe you'd get a new perspective.

As for not meeting any karateka stateside that can use their art, I humbly assure you that they do exist.But most refrain from seeking publicity, as when people find out they can really bug you all the time, seminar here, go there, and so on.

Yeah, one of them is my sensei. He gets "bugged" all the time, and he usually obliges the seminarians. Still, there are very, very, very, very few karateka that teach at an established dojo (everywhere probably) that can use what they teach for real. That's what I'm saying, and it's based on my experiences here and in Asia. The level of mediocrity is much worse here though.


Personally, I am tired of all the krap that people throw when someone says, hey fellas, try this.The proof is in the doing.What I have done so many times, when faced in person with people who tell me this or that art is real fighting and any others including mine, are not, is say, 'Attack.'

When they get back up,. they always apologize.Sometimes, they may even have their eyes opened.After getting them closed first.

But you know, at my age, I am about done with it all, except my own practice.
So, lets keep it polite here, shall we?

Not trying to be impolite, and not trying to convince folks who have their minds made up. I can't convince someone that God is God regardless of how you pigeonhold His name or His essence. MAs and Okinawan ones in particular, are very similar to religion in that respect.

I agree with a lot you said. I wasn't indicting anyone when I referred to "robot" fighting. I said no names and meant no none in particular. What I said was if you do Japanese Karate or anything like it then you probably would never understand the Chinese influence. How could you?

Not to say anything bad about Matsubayashi, but the intent is different in that art as compared to other Shorin Ryuha. Nagamine abhored competition but many Matsubayashi stylists compete regularly. This competition atmosphere has changed Matsubayashi's focus. I can't speak for you, but the Matsubayahsi Dojo near my house looks very Shotokan.

I don't doubt you can use what you know. Almost all of your posts have been on-point. You're one of the few guys on these forums that I agree with continually. I agree with you cats about the "White crane " phenomenon, but even guys like Tony Sandoval are very proficient Matsumura stylists. I'm proud of the fact that the Okinawans that I knew and trained with never got that elitist Japanese attitude. They would tell you in a sec. that their "fighting" was a combination of 3 nations influences. The Japanese have tried to eradicate the 2 most important influences of "Tang/Chinese Hand", the Ryukyuan and Chinese, by emphasizing the structure, terminology, training methodology and prevalence of "Japaneseness" in Budo inspired, and doppleganged, Karate. Thanks for helping the conquerors out, hahaha!

PEACE

Paihequan
30th November 2002, 04:39
Tatsu: I sincerely hope that I am not reading the wrong things into your posts but its seems your just a little defensive in your views regarding Crane-Fist. I guess this is the result of a great deal of politics which seems to surround the subject and I can understand why it would make one feel this way.


As are we all. Expert seekers.

I cannot speak for the others but I hardly regard myself as an "expert" of anything. To me "X" is an unknown factor and a "Spurt" is a drip under pressure LOL!:p

Regarding your views about the lack of Nejia within most Okinawan Karate then I have to agree. Sadly the internal aspects or essence of the original art which helped give rise to what has now became Okinawa Karate is all too often sadly overlooked by a great many.

You make a good point about the formulation of new forms but I personally think that this has more to do with the individual stylist than it should the entire art. You see, I do what is largely regarded as traditional Taolu or Kata but within my practice of these, my own personality and physical characteristics naturally come out ... hence a personal art within the art. For me, no need to "create" new forms ... just better understand the ones I do.

Sadly (and I don't think it the case with your Sensei) many simply create new forms because they don't have access to the real deal, they may also lack the effort and dedication required to understand the traditional forms. Sadly some simply make forms up so they too can have a "Crane" form perhaps making that which they do more marketable and commercial.

I don't feel that Lindsey Sensei and his forms are bogus. If they are his own and he is saying they are of his own creation then that's just fine by me. I have a problem with people taking a forms name and saying it is the one true form as handed down by Master So-&-So when the reality is that it is a form of their own creation. As I understand it Lindsey Sensei was regretably for a small while with Mr. Chandler and has since moved on. More power and respect to him. I respect Lindsey Sensei's work in promoting the Matsumura tradition as he understands it to be.

Nothing wrong with the "Lineage stuff" as you called it. It's more important than ranks and other such embroidery in my personal book. What really matter s is not the rank, the title or really even who one learnt from. It is the character of the person in everyday life that really matters.


One last bit. White Crane as taught on Taiwan, involves almost all "hands". The kicks are few and far between. Okinawan Karate has always been primarily a "hands" art. There were no spinning kicks, jumping kicks, roundhouses or even kicks above the waist. What most of the world practices is the Japanese brand, regardless of lineage. This is also fact, so why should you guys react to old style karate and its history any differently than practically the rest of humanity? Hope this helps clarifies things a little.

I don't follow you on this one. How did "we" react to, against, for old style karate? Sorry but I for one don't see the connection?

As for Paihequan in Taiwan, I have to beg to differ that it is all hands. Even the basic stepping forward in San Jiao Ma contains "hidden" kicking applications. Zhongkuang (form) begins with a Fire Hands position lead leg Round Kick and lead leg Hooking Sweep followed by a Snapping Fan Palm Strike. The kicking techniques are most definately to be found. Perhaps you have looked in the wrong place?

Best wishes.:)

fuwafuwausagi
30th November 2002, 06:57
Wow..things seem to have gotten "hostile here". I think I'll comment in an indirect fashion as I lack Mr. John Genjumin Vengel gift of civility and well bred manners.

Look what was really going on here is I was just sort of "joking" around with Ron, taking a few well deserved pot-shots at a couple of well known bozos and also trying to make what I believe to be a valid point. Sure, I'll admit my "boyish" banter was a bit frivolous but it really was all just sort of in fun. Ron has had a hard time of late, and while I was trying to make a point to him I was also trying to be warm and friendly about it.

Somehow things went awry. I have said it once, and I'll say it again, I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Coffman; my Okinawan martial arts instructor was a personal student of Soken Hohan Sensei so no defamation was implied nor intended in that regard.

Here is my contention. The way power is manifested in Chinese White Crane is simply different than how power is manifested in kara-te. Now you can find all sorts of moves or techniques that are similar, but basic problem is how power is manifested in Chinese white crane. It is not the same as the way power is generated in kara-te.

It seems to me in the past few years a whole lot of people were attempting to state that Okinawan kara-te is really a variant of Chinese White Crane, and unless you study Chinese White Crane you will never have kara-te. Now that is what I have gotten out of the last 6 years or so by observing the various martial arts circles and forums, and I think it is nonsense. Can there and is there a White Crane influence in Okinawan kara-te, yes their certainly is. Are there even some kara-te kata that are actually Chinese White Crane forms, possibly. Was there cross over between Chinese White Crane stylist and Okinawan karatekas, certainly. But that does not mean Okinawan Karate = White Crane.

fuwafuwausagi
30th November 2002, 07:06
John wrote:

The kata in shorin as I do them, that have Okinawan crane influence in them, are:Pinan Five,Wankan, Rohai, Chinto.Leopard, Naihanchi One-Three, Pinan One,fukyu gata ni.Tiger, Fukyu Gata ichi,Pinan Nidan,Ananku, Gojushiho.Snake, Pinan Three,Wanshu, Passai.Dragon,Pinan Four,Kusanku, with kusanku also containing many elements of all animal forms, as the others may also contain parts of others as well.

But these are Okinawan, not Chinese, animal usage. Some also classify Gojushiho kata as Phoenix, with Naihanchi as well.

The animals are ways of thinking about attributes that each kata develops.

My reply:

Someone taught you well sir. I was not aware that more than a small group of people had been told that. Interesting.

CEB
30th November 2002, 14:25
Does Thomas Hunicutt (spelling?) really teach all those crane forms? I met him once quite a while ago and what he was teachings were basically waza based on the teaching of Hohan Soken. He said he forgot a lot the kata from Machimura proper because he didn't practice them.

Quite a color individual. Just curious.

Tatsu
1st December 2002, 11:47
Ok first Mr. Goninan. You and John, as well as the others on here, have been quite civil. I apologize for my abrasive ways. Nejia is something most karateka will never know about. Getting rid of the learned "unnatural" natural tendencies of an angry or frightened person is very difficult. Still, styles such as Matsubayashi Ryu have a lot of similarities to the "harder" systems on Taiwan such as Shaolin Chuan Fa, which in itself contains external and internal influences, as does White Crane. You can get the soft aspect if you train for it and understand what it is. It's there, but not taught.

Secondly, Mr. Lindsey was Chandler's (and Ohl's and lots of other's) teachers. Chandler is a little scheisty I think, and so he has no relation with Lindsey now. My sensei said he was alright. I got the feeling that he was not as good or as knowledgeable as he claims (Chandler). What's new? BTW, isn't he head of Takaya Shinshii's (one of your "White Crane" senseis) international organization or something? You seem like a nice guy, looking for civil discourse. You have solid MAs knowledge, but then again I'm just a nobody with very little knowledge of certain things. I won't "dis" you again...

In reference to the prevalence of hand techniques seen in Okinawan Karate; The same can be said for Southern White Crane. I was trying to make a point about "that" similarity in Okinawan Karate and White Crane methodology. I didn't say there were no kicks in Okinawan karate, just very few. Still, not as few as White Crane Chuan Fa.

Fuwafu': Obviously you have something against Mr. Lindsey. Oh well, we all can't get along after all! Yes, Coffman is awesome. His Shorinji-Ryu is outstanding. I think that Sensei Coffman is mad at the world. He even accuses some folks of "mistreating" his sensei, Fusei Kise. I know the folks he's accused. He is 100% wrong about at least one of them, and I think he's got to know it by now. Again, WHAT-THE-FRICK-EVA! Can't please everyone! You can give a biased person all the proof in the world, and their blindness doesn't allow them to see it. My Sensei has nothing but praise for him, but I don't know if he feels the same way about him. He even featured him in his quarterly mag "Maishin Shorinji". I don't know what kind of personal dealings you've had with Ronnie, but I've seen nothing but honesty, expert instruction with concise explanations, dedication and friendliness in my 3 years training with him.

Hunnicut-- Hahaha! Black Tiger Forms and all. I saw the video. I thought it was some drunk fools goofing off. Come to find out they were really trying. Now this is just an opinion, but how are you gonna train for 2-4 years, stop training when you leave Okinawa--completely---and then attempt to claim this elevated rank when you decide to "return" to karate 20+ years later? Well not that rank means anything nowadays in karate anyways. He tried to get all those lost years back without respecting the spirit of it for decades. Won't work. This cat is a different story all together.

Ok, "White Crane" power generation. Are you talking about sinking power (chi held down), floating power (upward chi), and the chi of inhalation and exhalation ("swallowing" and "spitting")? The unity of sinew (tendon strength), chi, power and strength? Fajing and the such? I have learned these things. In fact in Kobayashi you learn many of these things. At least I did. Maybe some folks are witholding things when they teach. Oh well, bahala na and c'est la vie!

So the delivery may be eclectic, but it really isn't that different at the higher levels, I guess, at least what I have learned in Shorin. Isn't this how everyone has been taught? Maybe there is a reason.Hmmmm...... I may be divulging too much, hahaha, gotta bounce!

kusanku
1st December 2002, 20:32
Originally posted by fuwafuwausagi
John wrote:

The kata in shorin as I do them, that have Okinawan crane influence in them, are:Pinan Five,Wankan, Rohai, Chinto.Leopard, Naihanchi One-Three, Pinan One,fukyu gata ni.Tiger, Fukyu Gata ichi,Pinan Nidan,Ananku, Gojushiho.Snake, Pinan Three,Wanshu, Passai.Dragon,Pinan Four,Kusanku, with kusanku also containing many elements of all animal forms, as the others may also contain parts of others as well.

But these are Okinawan, not Chinese, animal usage. Some also classify Gojushiho kata as Phoenix, with Naihanchi as well.

The animals are ways of thinking about attributes that each kata develops.

My reply:

Someone taught you well sir. I was not aware that more than a small group of people had been told that. Interesting.

My teachers were very good, very knowledgeable, and very much present on Okinawa with the masters.I have studied some four styles of Shorin ryu with some very good people.I was very lucky in my teachers.And you are right, not many peole do know that stuff.

Regards

kusanku
1st December 2002, 20:55
First of all;Bryan, apology accepted.

Second of all, let's talk about what we know, and what we don't, and how we do our karate.

I learned Matsubayashi Ryu back in the early Seventies with a group of folks from the Ueshiro and James Wax lineage, who went to Okinawa and studied with Nagamine and who didn't spar, and didn't compete, except for a couple that did, and won pretty often.:D

My Matsubayashi Ryu is a semi soft, whipping, precise, martial art that can kill with one blow.It resembles Shotokan not at all.

The Okinawan Kenpo system, on the other hand, kind of resembles shor range shotokan done with full contact through bogu armor, and I did that for thrity years, too.

Also, while from 1979-1993, I trained with Kobayashi Ryu people because they wqere my friends and were nearby.Kobayashi ryu far more resembles Japanese karate than does the Matsubayashiryu I leanred and teach.

In addition, I have experience of Shobayashi ryu, and Isshinryu, a bit. All good styles.I also did learn and practice Shotokan on the side, just to see what Japanese karate was all about.When you get older, Shotokan and even basic level Okinawan Kenpo take a toolll on you, but Matsubayashi as I have known and done it since 1972, just gets better.Also advanced level Kenpo is more seite.

As for Matsumura, I have seen some pretty good folks in that style, and it looks to me a lot like Matsubayashi ryu.

Oh, and by the way, for the last nine years, almost ten now, I have been a Taiji rpactitioner with some of the people in the William C.C. Ch'en system, so I know what soft power can do, a little. I'm just a rookie in that, though, no rank, no title, just a student.

Just to set the record straight, and no, I never met Soken but I met some of his students, and I have seen Ron Lindsey's forms because a training partner of mine, a sixth dan in Kobayashi who learned them from him, showed them to me.

As for my getting a differernt perspective, my teacher was a senior with Taika Oyata and shared the things , or some of them he learned, with me.I Have a different perspective.What is interesting is this: In 1973, I was shown things by my Matsubayashi ryu instructor, that until twenty years later, I never saw anyone anywhere do anything like. When my teacher showed me some things, in 1992, that he had learned from Taika Oyata, an Okinawan Tenth dan, I saw things like that again.

Things the existence of which many people scoff at, but which, to some degree, I too, in my own small way, can do.Its about knowledge.Then practice, then skill.

But first, there must be, some knowledge.Many claim it, few have it.It's as real as life and death.Matsubayashi ryu, I was told, simply does not contain sch things.By people in systems, which do contain such.Well, maybe not. Maybe the twenty seven ways I was taught to take someone out of the fight with one move each, back in 1973, were from somewhere else. Except: Every single one of the techniques is from the kata of Matsubayashi Ryu Shorin Ryu.

How interesting.

Do they work? Well, I only ever did one for real, the safest one, and it completely k'o'ed the person, off a full power atack he did.

The other ones, I never did, as they mostly cripple, or kill. I have however checked them with a medical person and he told me why each one would probably kill you.Later, after learning all the kata, I found where each one of these, was.

Of course, Shotokan kata also contain variations of these same techniques, and of course, if you learn all the kata in Shorin or oher arts, thjere are a lot more than twenty-seven of these really awful techniques.

Mostly, Ido not teach or share these waza.Except with people already capable of doing great damage, or my senior student, who does know them.

Bye!:D

Paihequan
1st December 2002, 23:22
Hi Bryan,

Apology accepted but not necessary as we are all human.

It is so sad that many in Karate will never come to realize the inherent lesson within Neija. As i understand it the Chinese term of “Neija” or “Internal Arts” has two major yet little known meanings. The first is that which refers to those martial arts, which place value on the development of the concept of 'mindfulness' and 'longevity' over and above that of muscle/tendon strength and ‘dead’ force. Secondly, it refers to those martial arts, which were hidden from those outside of the family tradition (“inner-family – Neija”).Unfortunately in modern day martial arts, the value of the internal aspects of Karatedo history, methods, concepts, and techniques is all too often overlooked. In China, many forms or Kata are practised in a relaxed, fluid, and unforced manner to promote the flow and circulation of essential energy throughout the body and techniques.

Crane-Fist could best be termed as “wise man’s martial arts”, an art in which the practitioner improves with age akin to that of a fine wine. It does not rely on only physical ability alone, but also a high level of mental and spiritual training as well. In this way, the practitioner will have the freedom to train and still be a good martial artist well into old age. Butoryu training and development is only about fifteen percent physical; the rest is energy within the mind and spirit of the disciple.Before one can realise the true potential of the applications of Kata, one must first discover the “mind-set” behind each form. This is especially true of the Crane-Fist Kata which require that the practitioner develop a “crane-thinking” mind. This means that the mind must be engaged in learning the concepts and theories at the heart of the style and its Taolu or Kata.

As a martial artist, one needs to come to understand the structure and the substance upon which the form and application depend. It is of vital importance that you understand not only that which is going on outside of your body but also that which is occurring internally as well.

Perhaps the most important aspects remain within the respective philosophies, spirit, and “codified” principle’s of Okinawan Karatedo and the Chinese internal arts. If one is to “re-discover” the internal influences within Okinawan Karatedo, then a thorough investigation into the history and origins of their central forms should be vigorously pursued.

As for Chandler, I share your views, "ethically challenged" is a good term to describe him and his actions. As far as I am aware, Yabiku Takaya is somehow connected to him. Shame as Yabiku-San is essentailly a good man. I don't think he is all that "aware" of Chandler though. I have moved on.

fuwafuwausagi
2nd December 2002, 06:21
Bryan wrote:

Fuwafu': Obviously you have something against Mr. Lindsey. Oh well, we all can't get along after all!

My reply:

Uhhh...huh???? Where did that come from? How did you draw that conclusion?

I have reread my posts and I have not a clue how you came to that conclusion. In fact, I deliberately did not discuss your instructor, because frankly you seem rather "volatile", and I assumed any commentary would be construed by you in a negative sense. And yet somehow, without me even making the slightest reference to your instructor you have indeed assumed an attack.

Puzzled...

Paihequan
2nd December 2002, 06:51
Kevin: I too re-read your posts and could find no mention of Lindsey Sensei???

Bryan, perhaps your reading something into it that is not there?

kusanku
2nd December 2002, 15:17
Yare Bryan, Kevin din't say nuffin bad 'bout yore Sensei.Nor did ennyone elsen on here, far's I know.

Turn down the testosterone level, there, and life will be a lots calmer 'n' also more peaceful.

Jedi Klampett, writing on John Vengel's account and mainly, to add support to the other two here.

Thankee John-Y'all come back now, y'heah?

Tatsu
3rd December 2002, 10:17
Yeah I read into things at times. I feel no hostility towards anyone here, I just express myself with vigor at times. Sorry for being so semmingly hotheaded.

Well the argument rages on. I still say that I've always understood Shorin to come from Shaolin and White Crane Chinese progenitors. I don't doubt that a large part of the ideology and methodology of Okinawan Karate is Ryukyuan. That is a good thing, because the Okinawan people deserve all the credit in the world for providing such a huge gift from a small place. Many Chinese practitioners consider ALL karate to be inferior to their fighting systems, and refer to it as "schoolboy fighting". Some Okinawans say the same thing about most non-Okinawan karate.

I think the Chinese side of the argument may be due to ignorance, and the Okinawan gripe about Japanese karate-do may have more to do with reality and experience. That's another thing entirely. Suffice it to say that maybe I understand why some Okinawan senseis/stylists would, and should, be quick to discredit the Chinese contribution.

Paihequan
4th December 2002, 00:33
Bryan,

I'm glad that we got that settled. It's all too easy to take the written word the wrong way.We are all human and therefore prone to making mistakes.

Cultural pride has a great deal to do with the issue of some native Okinawan's not wanting to make too much of a Chinese connection. By and large the Okinawan's are very proud of their culture (deservedly so). Also Okinawan Karate has undergone quite a few changes especially in recent times and more closely mimics it's Japanese counterpart in the area of neat lines, linear movememnts ultra neat and tidy techniques ... all of which is somewhat removed from the original native art and its origins in Chinese Quanfa.

The arts that claim an connection to Crane-Fist are even further removed from this art especially when one see's what authentic Crane-Fist really is.

That's why I sometimes find it a little frustrating to see people laying a claim to doing Crane-Fist when that which they demonstrate has a questionable connection at best. I guess the attraction is found in being able to say "we teach from the original art that gave rise to karate" ..... it certainly is a good marketing tool if nothing else.