PDA

View Full Version : manchester tai-kai



Bradenn
26th November 2002, 11:33
I was very excited when I heard there will be a Tai-Kai in England as I have never seen Soke Hatsumi in person. Imagine my delight when I found out it is going to cost £330 (about $500) just for the training!I will not be able to afford this so there goes that dream.
In Alex Modine's famous interview, there is one point I do agree with him. Can anyone guess which one???

On a related topic, the course is supposed to be one day on Taijutsu and one on Budo Taijutsu and one on Ninja tools. What is the difference between Taijutsu and Budo Taijutsu?

John Lindsey
26th November 2002, 13:27
This is also a hot topic in the alt.arts.bujinkan newsgroup as well.

Bradenn
26th November 2002, 13:50
Originally posted by Luc Lefebvre


The part about Hatsumi being a great business man. The money, am I right? Money runs the world my friend (Man, the truth sucks, but hey, what can ya do?)

Actually no. It was more the part about the taikai people ripping off the attendees. If I remember correct, Modine suggested the organisers publish a financial statement for the event. He also says he advises his students to keep away from tai kai but I wouldn't agree with that if it is your only opportunity to see Hatsumi-sensei.

MCOLBOURNE
26th November 2002, 15:45
Like a child waiting to open his presents on Christmas day, I checked the taikai website ALMOST every day from the 6th October and could not wait to absorb the info and book my place straight away.

Imagine my disappointment and being honest, my CONCERN for the fact that many, many 'normal' people will just not be able to attend the 2003 Tai-kai. By normal, I mean people who are earning fairly low paid jobs, have a family to support and who are fighting to struggle to keep their head above the water.People who cannot justify to their families a 3 day course (even with Hatsumi Sensei)costing around £500 and who don't have a chance to go to Japan so the tai-kai is their only other option to see 'the Boss'.

I have talked to many people who, when hearing about the costs involved - especially when you add accomodation, travelling costs, spending money on top of the £330 training only package, are either totally shocked and I mean really shocked or they quickly become extremely angry and they feel that the tai-kai's are now just a 'rich mans club', where only people who have the good fortune to be able to afford the types of fee's can attend.

I noticed that the US Taikai 2003 was pretty much identical in price and the US organiser said that Hatsumi Sensei had requested ' a first class taikai'. I also realise that the top individuals can rightly claim top rates for their services but like my good friend said when hearing about the costs and subsequently now having no chance of attending - "where is the heart gone in Budo?".

Myself personally, I am still trying to crunch numbers to see if I can in any way get near to the types of funds required.

I have been fortunate to have seen Hatsumi Sensei at tai-kai's before and those, although expensive, do not seem too much compared to 2003 so I have great sympathy for people who have not seen Hatsumi Sensei before and this could well be their best and possibly only chance.

Yours in Budo
Michael Colbourne.

Baio
26th November 2002, 17:00
well U.S. Tai Kai is at a really classy place I'm definitely going, even though it is less than an hour away and the training only package would suit me just fine it's fun to have the comfort of a great hotel like that. But there are a ton of hotels in that area plus theres military lodging at Ft. Dix for i think 40 bucks a night, I'm not sure about that price but it's about around there.

The Tengu
26th November 2002, 17:31
This is Mr. Ed Martin's reply to the suggestion that he cashed in on the 2002 Tai Kai.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=126562&highlight=papasan#post126562

poryu
26th November 2002, 17:50
There is another point that people have not noticed about the UK taikai

if you wish to take the 5th dan test at the Taikai you must pay over 300 pounds in advance. This is outrageous as the money you send to japan is around 200 pounds. So can we assume that you must now pay 100 pounds (150 USD)to take the test or is this a way of gaiing an extra 100 out of you.

a personal point on this is if my 4th dan decided to take the test I would or he would send off for the certifictae and not a Taikai administator who has nothing to do with me or my dojo.

Can anyone with the UK Taikai team please explain to us why they have added 100 pounds to the 5th dan, has the Bujinkan Hombu issued a new price fee for grades that i am not aware of, if they have would like a set please

ninjaman
26th November 2002, 23:54
theres military lodging at Ft. Dix for i think 40 bucks a night

40 bucks to sleep in a bunk! I did that for 10 months in the military. For free. ;)

Johan Grönwall

mmeskheniten
27th November 2002, 06:29
For some folks who are willing, able, and persuaded to pay this amount, I guess that it's fine. But from my vatange point (financial, family and training wise), I can't imagine that it's worth it! I would rather save that cash for a Japan trip to visit my Kancho/Soke and his senior Shihan personally even if it took a couple of years save up. I think that Japan trips offer a bigger bang for the buck. From what I have heard, there seems to be a more personal and higher quality interaction on an extended Japan trip.

Muai-Aakhu

bukweetz
27th November 2002, 11:37
Hi all,

Like many others on this forum i have been shaking with
excitement about the tai-kai. However, i was shocked by the cost of the thing. Of course it's cheaper than going to Japan to train with Hatsumi sensei, but come on £330 for the basic package is unrealistic for a lot of people. Not only that but most people will also need to purchase the kunai etc that are being used during the training. The cost will put lots of people off, and i can't help feeling sad about this.I think to suggest that minimal profits will be made is rediculous.

Cheers

iain

Bradenn
27th November 2002, 11:46
If the quality and amount of training is going to be very good I will try to scrape together the large amount of cash although it's not easy on a teacher's salary.

Those of you who have been at tai kais, can you say whether the quality and amount of training was worth the money? Did you get any individual exposure to or feedback - no matter how short - from Hatsumi-sensei?

If the training is not going to be that beneficial I would rather save up for a couple of years and go to Japan.

I'll be grateful for any advice on this.

poryu
27th November 2002, 11:59
Hi all

I have just looke dat the site and there is a pic of the venue. Can someone really understand why it has to be in an Olympic style venue.

In Japan some arts are studied in wood huts at the end of the village, why so fancy. I liked the schools that peter King used, bit cramped, but at least the Taikai cheap.

I have to admit the way people are taling here amongst each other I cna not see at this momemtn in time it being attended by many UK people. which is a shame i have always enjoyed the social side of the Taikai I have been to.

bukweetz
27th November 2002, 12:16
Hi Poryu,

I have looked at the venue on the site. It looks like the velodrome in manchester to me. A strange choice of venue if you ask me, and i suspect the cost will be related to the size of the massive venue.

Another thought it how many other courses could you attend over a year for a lot less money?


Cheers


Iain

poryu
27th November 2002, 12:24
Hi Iain

The other thought is for less money how many taikai and seminars could you afford in a year.

I do appreciate the fact that prices have risen since 1999 in the UK but to double the cost is taking the p**s

I have phoned around and I have found only one that I know of who is definately going at the moment (he said he was loaded so money was nothing to him - fair comment I guess). All others have said it is purely the cost that is stopping them from going even though they all want to go. All of my students have dropped out in my dojo all because of the cost.

I wish the taikai admin would join in on this thread then maybe they could change our minds, and get us all to fork out for this event.

One of my students has said its only a bit more cash for a flight to Japan and thats what he is doing instead of the Taikai now.

Bradenn
27th November 2002, 12:59
Originally posted by poryu


I wish the taikai admin would join in on this thread then maybe they could change our minds, and get us all to fork out for this event.


They might play their ace and say that it is the last tai kai Hatsumi-sensei is doing! The same way that 2002 in Norway was the last one as was the one before that etc. etc.

To give some price comparison, there was a Systema course near where I live a few months ago with Vladimir Vasiliev. It was £80 for two days. As it happened, I couldn't afford that course either, but it is still a lot more reasonable than £330 for 3 days. Apparently the seminar was outstanding.

I don't think people want to hear that good things are expensive etc. etc. I'm sure no-one denies Hatsumi-sensei is worth paying to train with, but this is outrageous.

paolo_italy
27th November 2002, 14:20
hello all,

if you have any problem with the policy, just give a call or drop a line to the organizers! C'mon, everything else is just childish, IMHO.

Concerning the price, i also see it's quite expensive, and consider those willing to come from east europe or other economically weaker countries, *** BUT *** since i know it, i will just find a way to get that money (e.g. working in the security of local clubs).

Man, no one remembers banpen fugyo? if you want, you can.

cheers,

Oni
27th November 2002, 17:23
Ive got to concur with the last poster. I do not think any of the organizers of either of this years TaiKais are E-Budo participators so asking questions or complaining here really isn't going to accomplish much. We were lucky enough that some of last years organizers were members and came on to discuss a few things...but remember there is really only a small percentage of the Kans period that actually really participate here or anywhere else.

I will admit the price is pretty steep by itself...but at least in America you are getting quite a bit for your money. I don't know about the UK event because I am not familiar with the venue but I imagine it is a similar deal. That really doesn't make it easier to come up with the money...but at least you know you are getting a good return for the cost.

I verified the normal hotel rates:
Hotel Cost = 345 for ocean view rooms * 3 = 1035
or
Hotel Cost = 295 for the other rooms * 3 = 885
9 gourmet meals * minimum of 20$ per meal = 180 minimum...probably more value than this if it is truly gourmet.

Total value without even considering the training = 1065 - 1215.

MCOLBOURNE
27th November 2002, 17:27
Everyone I believe sincerely wants the 2003 Tai-kai to be a success (in the respect of fellow budoka coming together in one place with all having the opportunity to see the 'source') as many do not and will not have the opportunity to visit Japan because of life's events and their personal circumstances.

Like Paul Richardsons' students, when I gave the Tai-kai info out (without giving any negative vibes about it), our students were shocked and although all wanted to make efforts to attend the tai-kai, all have now pretty much said they have cannot go due to the sheer price.

As some of the previous posts have said, it does have to be understood that good things are expensive in life and although I have never spoken to Brin/Natascha I have only heard good things about them both.

Personally I don't believe either of them have any intention of trying to rip anyone off - much more likely they have done their calculations, added a certain profit margin on and then disseminated the info onto the site maybe not fully comprehending that the price will outstrip the common man's ability to afford this.

The original point of my post was not to be negative for the sake of it - my point was to simply say that a great many people whose only chance of seeing Sensei was this 2003 tai-kai have now had their wishes shredded by the sheer cost of the event.

So for those not able to attend the tai-kai, at least you can buy the videos but I know it's just not the same thing.

Respectfully
Michael Colbourne.

paolo_italy
27th November 2002, 17:39
LOL I know that self-quoting could raise a war, but...


Originally posted by paolo_italy
hello all,

Concerning the price [...], since i know it, i will just find a way to get that money



Again, there are still 6 months left...

Alex Meehan
27th November 2002, 18:26
Let's have a reality check here. I have been to five tai kai and I have never been able to do it for less than around IR£800 (about ST£660) including flights, accomodation and all in costs.

This time around, it will work out exactly the same.

3 star accomodation with training, breakfast and lunch every day, along with a video and t shirt costs ST£445 (€685) I got a cheap Ryan Air flight for €50, and even allowing €100 to get dinner for two nights - it's really not that expensive.

In fact, when you look at the cost of the training, and then the accomodation packages, the training isn't that expensive. It looks more like a premium is being added for those who just want the training. If you take a package, it is much cheaper. (In other words - ST£445 for a package - ST£330 for training = st£115 for 3 star accomodation for three nights, with lunch, breakfast, tee shirt and video thrown in. That's actually extremely cheap guys!

Perhaps the price has been spread to make it better for buyu coming from Europe, rather than just from the UK. Considering how much cheaper it is for you guys in the UK to go than for most of us in the Eurozone or the States, you really don't appreciate how good you have it.

Frankly, I hope less people come this time. That way there'll be more space.

Alex Meehan
Dublin, Ireland

bencole
27th November 2002, 22:30
Originally posted by poryu
One of my students has said its only a bit more cash for a flight to Japan and thats what he is doing instead of the Taikai now.

Hmm... Makes you think. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by MCOLBOURNE
although I have never spoken to Brin/Natascha I have only heard good things about them both. Personally I don't believe either of them have any intention of trying to rip anyone off

Brin and Natascha would NEVER seek to rip the Bujinkan off. Brin's last Taikai was extremely well-received and I know for a fact that Brin paid for some things out of his own pocket. Why? Because he loves Soke and this art and wants to give back to the Bujinkan as much as he can.

It is a shame that costs get expensive, but life is expensive. Surely you could just train and sleep in the park if you wanted to save a few quid, but a lot of people would rather have "a vacation feel" to their trip. They reason, that if they are going to take time off of work, then they might as well have a "vacation." I rarely have had a vacation that didn't cost around $800 or so with everything included. Therefore, treating Taikai as a treat to oneself is one way of looking at the money outlay.


Originally posted by poryu
I wish the taikai admin would join in on this thread then maybe they could change our minds, and get us all to fork out for this event.

No one should have to convince you to go. If you want to attend, you'll find the money. If you would rather spend your money on a trip to Disneyland, then do so. If you would rather spend your money on a trip to Japan (and Tokyo Disneyland while you are at it), then do so. :D

Don't whine about it. Posting here when Brin and Natascha are not here does little good, imo.


Originally posted by poryu
I have just looke dat the site and there is a pic of the venue. Can someone really understand why it has to be in an Olympic style venue.

In Japan some arts are studied in wood huts at the end of the village, why so fancy. I liked the schools that peter King used, bit cramped, but at least the Taikai cheap.

The organizer needs to make a decision based upon what is available. The last Taikai that Sven Eric hosted had almost 600 people!!! Certainly, we cannot fit those numbers into a local high school gymnasium! :D

This year's U.S. Taikai, arguably one of the best ever, was held in a MASSIVE facility. It provided plenty of training room, and facilities for large screens that nearly doubled the training time because people did not have to stop to crowd around to see what was going on. Prior to the event some might have criticized the facilities as being "excessive" but for those who attended, it was perfect! Brin and Natascha were in attendance and know how well it turned out. It's not surprising to hear that the facilities are more than adequate.


Originally posted by poryu
if you wish to take the 5th dan test at the Taikai you must pay over 300 pounds in advance. This is outrageous as the money you send to japan is around 200 pounds. So can we assume that you must now pay 100 pounds (150 USD)to take the test or is this a way of gaiing an extra 100 out of you.

The payment in advance policy was instituted because, if you can believe it, someone in the past took the test, then refused to pay!!! All it takes is one bad apple to ruin it for everyone. That explains the current "deposit system." If you pass, the money goes to the Bujinkan administration for your menkyo, etc. If you fail, your money is refunded.

As to the "extra 100", I don't know. As I stated earlier, Brin and Natascha are not the type of people who would be trying to rip people off. There MUST be a reason, and I am certain that Soke is fully aware of the price "discrepancy" with taking it in Japan. Perhaps it's a "convenience fee" for having Soke come to you, rather than you go to him. :D

Or maybe that 100 is forfeited when you fail. :D A deterrent to sitting the test before you are ready. In the past, you lost a limb. Today, you lose fifty beers worth of drinking! :D Clearly we will find out what precisely is the catalyst for the 300 price, but whining about it now, does little good.


Originally posted by MCOLBOURNE
- much more likely they have done their calculations, added a certain profit margin on and then disseminated the info onto the site maybe not fully comprehending that the price will outstrip the common man's ability to afford this.


Originally posted by Bradenn
In Alex Modine's famous interview, there is one point I do agree with him. Can anyone guess which one???

(SNIP)

Actually no. It was more the part about the taikai people ripping off the attendees. If I remember correct, Modine suggested the organisers publish a financial statement for the event.

Taikais are a real hit and miss venture, despite what you may think. How many of you would be willing to get a second mortgage on your home for such a hit and miss venture? Very few, I'd think.

Putting one of these things together runs well into the six-figures and most of us don't have that kind of money just sitting in the bank. Are you going to sell your stock portfolio and get hit with capital gains tax? Are you going to go to the bank and ask for the money? These are the types of questions the organizer must ask. This isn't high school lunch money. This is real life. This is whether people can send their kids to college....

You don't think it doesn't happen? Talk to Ed Lomax about the Australian Taikai! Ouch!

So, everything comes off just right. Attendance was good. Little damage to the facilities. I'm rolling in the dough! Wait a minute. You mean I have to file taxes? So in other words, I take money out of my bank to fund this project, and when I get my money back, it's considered "income"? So you mean the $100,000 I put up is considered "working capital" for this business venture? So that means that I need to make at least $130,000 just to break even!!! Yikes!

This project doesn't quite look like the money maker I thought it was!

So let's get this straight. I have to spend thousands of hours coordinating the thing, invest MASSIVE amounts of my own money at great personal risk, and HOPE that people are going to come? Altogether, the hourly wage earned is closer to minimum wage than you or Mr. Mordine may think. And, in the end, shouldn't the organizer have the right to make SOME return on his/her investment? You demand interest from the bank, don't you? Is +10% return that horrible for such a high risk venture? How about -40% return?

Like I said, if you want to attend, please do so. Brin and Natascha will put on an excellent Taikai. And who knows, it really COULD be the last Taikai. Soke won't be with us forever.

-ben

El Guapo-san
28th November 2002, 08:55
I've got pretty wide experience when it comes to events organizing (think thousands of people showing up), and it's no picnic. The fact that it even happens year after year without the same people organizing it is a real credit to everyone manages to make these things come off. Inevitably, you're going to get people who aren't happy with stuff, no matter what you do.

If you want a cheap TaiKai, hold it in a low cost facility like the Vilnius Exhibition and Trade Fair Grounds. Low overhead, low hotel costs, low tech, etc. But wait, you don't want to fly to Lithuania? You want screens? You don't want borscht and vodka for the gala dinner? Then we better make it in a central location like Manchester, Amsterdam or Frankfurt. But wait, while facilities there are better, they are more expensive.....aaahaaa.....

The price don't seem so bad if you compare it to a week at a decent resort in Spain or Turkey. And it's a real chance to see everything without going to Japan. That said, I'm going to Japan next year anyway. The missus insists and who am I to say no to hiking in Nagano? (And classes sometime in there......)

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

paolo_italy
28th November 2002, 09:11
well said, Ben and J.! :up:

Bradenn
28th November 2002, 10:16
All very well said, but at the end of the day you cannot deny that this is "punishing" those people who are not short of love of training, spirit, dedication, discipline, drive and heart but who are unfortunately short of money. To them, top class venues and a vacation feel is unnecessary and unaffordable.

That said, I will still try my hardest to scrape the dosh together because it may be my only chance to get to the source.

El Guapo-san
28th November 2002, 15:47
Arnaud Coursegue runs some great seminars down in Paris, and the price can't be beat.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

bencole
28th November 2002, 16:48
Originally posted by Bradenn
All very well said, but at the end of the day you cannot deny that this is "punishing" those people who are not short of love of training, spirit, dedication, discipline, drive and heart but who are unfortunately short of money. To them, top class venues and a vacation feel is unnecessary and unaffordable.

I encourage you (and others) to consider Japan as an option. You can then determine whether to live on $1 rice balls (convenience stores) and bread rolls (bakeries), or whether to treat it as "a vacation." If you look around, you can honestly find tix to Japan for less than US$500. I've seen tix as low as $300 from Los Angeles. Super cheap tickets ARE available (from Europe as well), you just have to look for them. I've used this company before with great success.

http://www.iace-usa.com/html/english.html

Right now, prices are expensive, but if you keep an eye on the site, you will find certain times of the year especially cheap! Spend five minutes a month looking at the website until you see the patterns.

When I went to college, my parents insisted that I must pay for it completely by myself. I really wanted to go, and made the sacrifices to make it happen. That included doing uncomfortable jobs to pay for things (restaurant cook until midnight, house painter in 100 degree heat, red-eye security in winter, etc.). In the end, I didn't "play" as much as some of my friends. But that work, however menial, was very meaningful....

Taking a second job for a couple of months during the summer, being mindful of your money, and keeping your eye on the prize should make the "journey" to Japan (or Taikai) a reality. Putting in the effort will also make you value the opportunity even more. So soon we forget how much a gift Soke is giving us....

Gambatte kudasai!

-ben

paolo_italy
28th November 2002, 17:13
hey ben,

am i wrong if i say that in bujinkan (and even more in ninpo - the way of living with endurance) it's implicit everything you've just written?

i thought it is, and i'm so sad in seeing that many can't understand it by themselves... No flame intended, just MHO...

Bradenn
28th November 2002, 17:38
Originally posted by paolo_italy
hey ben,

am i wrong if i say that in bujinkan (and even more in ninpo - the way of living with endurance) it's implicit everything you've just written?

i thought it is, and i'm so sad in seeing that many can't understand it by themselves... No flame intended, just MHO...

There's plenty of ways to demonstrate endurance. Spending money I and my family don't have is not one of them.

Why must there always be some deeper meaning to the simple fact that people can't afford something?

If I'm going to be judged for living with endurance I'd rather display it by going running every morning rain or shine, not tapping out automatically when the opponent gets me in a lock, showing up at class no matter how tired or sore, not thinking a black belt is the end of the road, practicing a technique no matter how frustrating or difficult, and always learning.

One closing question: Why do Universities give scholarships?

paolo_italy
28th November 2002, 17:52
Originally posted by Bradenn


There's plenty of ways to demonstrate endurance. Spending money I and my family don't have is not one of them.

Why must there always be some deeper meaning to the simple fact that people can't afford something?



I never meant this. Simply, I totally agree with Ben that, by having 6 months, one can find a way to get extra cash.

However, this is up to ourselves and the possibilities we have to do so.

Brandenn, do not get red ears, I just said my opinion, pal :)
Hope to meet you there.

Ciao!

Bufu Ikan
28th November 2002, 19:38
If you can’t afford a Taikai then simply don't attend. It is understandable that some people will not be able to afford it, since financially we are not all equal.

Coming here and complaining that the Taikai is too expensive is inappropriate. Instead try to find ways how to make your life better and make better money so next year you will be able to afford a Taikai or a trip to Japan.

Janin
28th November 2002, 23:40
Taijutsu means Body movement and Budo means warrior or the way of the warrior

so Budo taijutsu is Warrior Bodymovement while Taijutsu is bodymovement A runner has bodymovement or has a form of Tajutsu.

Budo Taijutsu is the bodymovement in Bujinkan.

El Guapo-san
29th November 2002, 12:48
If you can't make the Taikai, then spend a weekend down in Paris for one of AC's seminars.

Failing that, you can grab a cheap flight over to Amsterdam and maybe go to one or two of Sveneric's seminars which happen on a regular basis. I found that one of his that I went to was the best prep possible for what was going on when I went to classes in Japan (where I was going on vacation anyway, I might add). My bet would be that a few seminars like that and you're going to be abosorbing more things than if you were in an opportunity to see them only once.

I don't even have the money to go to London for a weekend, let alone thinking about going to a Taikai.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

Oni
29th November 2002, 19:46
Originally posted by Jeff Mueller


If you can afford either of these Tai Kai, set aside an additional $500 and go to Japan for two weeks.

True...I spent 10 days in Japan...trained every day with various shihan...and went to Daikomyosai all for right around $2000. Probably could have done it slightly cheaper as well if I had stayed somewhere else and skipped some of the 'fun stuff' I did.

In my opinion one important thing to consider is who you are responsible for. I have made it to Taikais, Japan, and festivals in past years. At all of these times I was basically single. Now that I am married things will be a little harder. If I had kids I am quite sure these things would be significantly harder (I have animals and that is hard enough). This is somewhat akin to the idea that defending against 2 people is not twice as hard as 1...it is MUCH more difficult. Someone mentioned placing family before budo. I kind of think of that AS good budo.

Of course along with this I also believe that we have the power to make things happen if we really want them to. Sometimes it may just take more preparation than others to do so. Sometimes it may take more sacrifice than we are willing or able to give. It is a balance that each of us must be able to decide on. Perhaps NOT going might be more important for some than going.

Just some idle rambling ;)

Tamdhu
29th November 2002, 20:23
If I'm going to be judged for living with endurance I'd rather display it by going running every morning rain or shine, not tapping out automatically when the opponent gets me in a lock, showing up at class no matter how tired or sore, not thinking a black belt is the end of the road, practicing a technique no matter how frustrating or difficult, and always learning.

That's all well and good, but true perseverance is best demonstrated in situations that we find uncomfortable.

In life (and the Bujinkan) we often don't get to choose how or when we get to 'demonstrate perseverance'. It's a moving target, waiting for no one, take it or leave it, good luck.

"Yeah, but I..."

Yeah but good luck to you!

In the end it's not about 'proving' anything to anyone. It's about doing what you need to do to get what you want. Creativity, adaptation, perseverance. Henka. Whatever. End of story.

Paul Rice
30th November 2002, 20:39
I would just like to say that I went to the first 3 tai kai in the UK the first being 87 and that on the whole Tai Kais are not worth the money. I can not defend people who make vast amount out of the general masses who can not afford the high prices, but what people are shouting from the outside will not see is the intial out lays that the organisers will have to put up ie airfares, hall rental and various other deposits so the risk for them finacially is massive. (no I have nothing to do with organising this Tai Kai)

The problem has arisen is that over the years the people who have organised Tai Kai have used the excess to fund themselves so creating ill feeling. If this excess had been used to create indvidual country Hombu where people could get together to train the people whould not mind paying the prices as they would all feel that the money was being put to good use, rather than filling someones pockets. I will point out that I have regularly seen courses advertised for £60+ for 2 days training with a UK instructor so when you add in all the other cost its over a £120 for 2 day and thats not in a nice hotel. So I would agree it a person from Ireland in the UK we get more for our money in Eurozone so when its in the Uk we suddenly realise how expensive the UK is.

I have nothing to gain from this Tai Kai and will not be going as I stopped going to Tai Kai in 89 when I realised that they weren't worth it then as the money when to the organiser rather than for the benefit of the Bujinkan people of that country.

Rgds

Paul Rice
Shidoshi

icynorth
30th November 2002, 23:18
Well I went to the 2000 Tai Kai in Atlanta. USD is much higher value so the ticket cost me about $800 CDN if I can recall. I could not afford the hotel so I stayed a real dingy hostel. The airline tix was $700. I also got cornered by a batch of the locals one of the nights returning.

Was it worth it,..absolutely. At the time I was a truck driver, I didn't make squat I also have a family of 5 but the training and the opportunity to meet some of the personality there. It was incredible. Seeing the moves 20 feet in front of you, wow. The energy in the room was incredible.
The access to Hatsumi. I sat not 20 feet away the whole time. During the introduction dinner I walked right up and shook his and Nagato's hand with no issue at all. He was really pleasant actually. There is an energy you don't feel everyday.

I am also of the mind that if you want it bad enough you will do it regardless, you will find a way. Someone has always spent more than you for sure.

I am going to try and make it to the Tai Kai in Jersey as it is only an 8 hrs drive for me. I don't care what it would cost. It is worth it.
Though I also agree that Japan would be the ultimate. For me it is more just time available then anything.

Bradenn
2nd December 2002, 12:25
Originally posted by Tamdhu



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I'm going to be judged for living with endurance I'd rather display it by going running every morning rain or shine, not tapping out automatically when the opponent gets me in a lock, showing up at class no matter how tired or sore, not thinking a black belt is the end of the road, practicing a technique no matter how frustrating or difficult, and always learning.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's all well and good, but true perseverance is best demonstrated in situations that we find uncomfortable.



OK I see now. Having an arm locked near breaking point is meant to be comfortable. So that's what I've been doing wrong all these years.:)

paolo_italy
3rd December 2002, 08:53
Originally posted by Bradenn


OK I see now. Having an arm locked near breaking point is meant to be comfortable. So that's what I've been doing wrong all these years.:)

it doesn't mean that...
it means, instead, that if you really wanna go out from that situation you could be in need to use sutemi. But, you know, you use sutemi in order to avoid a bigger damage :p

take care,

Ruairi Quinn
3rd December 2002, 16:26
Surely complaints about Tai Kai prices would be better directed to the organisers via e-mail or written letter: At least this would be constructive criticism.

Dave Pawson
3rd December 2002, 16:50
Ruairi

I think the issue that is being raised is the fact it is double the last tai-kai in the uk.

1999 I paid for the tai-kai, hotel petrol money,meals and it was still less than the training fee this year.

While I agree with the Banpen Fugyo idea, some people have other priorities when it comes to money, feed the family, look after childen etc. For them I feel sorry that they will not be able to participate and see Soke in person.

In my dojo I had commitment from 10 guys who were planning on £200 for the training now I have had to tell them it is another £130 guess what they have to have some serious readjusting of finances. As of last night only 1 can afford it at the moment.

One other point if you go on the website it states that there is no gaurantee that you will be able to do a day training course as there might not be room.

bencole
3rd December 2002, 17:51
Originally posted by bencole
The organizer needs to make a decision based upon what is available. The last Taikai that Sven Eric hosted had almost 600 people!!! Certainly, we cannot fit those numbers into a local high school gymnasium!

To set the record straight, Sveneric was not the host of the Taikai I referenced earlier. In fact, the host for both the 1996 and 2000 Holland Taikais was none other than the gracious Mariette van der Vliet.

Sorry, Mariette! :smilejapa

-ben