View Full Version : A sorta technical question.

26th November 2002, 19:22
Reasent ly i have been studying chinese internal martial arts, and they made me ponder this question. I have been studying Aikido for several years and have always heard of it's beginnings in Daito ryu, I have thumbed through Daito ryu books and seen pictures of things very similer to what we do in Aikido, and i've seen things very similer, and even called by the same names in jiujutsu books as they are in Aikido. However I don' ever really recall seeing a kokyunage, or iriminage, I have however seen throughs very similer in chinese marial arts. So I was wondering if there are similer throughs in traditional japanese marital arts, besides aikido, and if anyone knows aproximately when they apperd on the seen? It seems to me that most of judos throughs and Aikidos throughs are very differnt, and I am wondering if that is due to the sportification of judo from juijutsu, or if it's from O-senseis interpitations.

I'm greatful for any information

Benjamin Peters
26th November 2002, 20:32
chis, in my perception (as an outsider to the arts you mention), there seem to be similarities to the kokyu and irimi type throws you mention. upon a cursory examination of this daito-ryu techniques web-page, i saw irimi nage of differing types and forms of techniques you could argue as kokyu. http://member.nifty.ne.jp/daito-ryu/gihou.html have a look and tell me if you can see resemblances too.

26th November 2002, 21:58
hey ben, i tryed to look, however, it seems that page is in japanese, my kanji is a bit rusty, or well non existent, thanx anywho
chris hein

Benjamin Peters
27th November 2002, 01:55
Originally posted by ChrisHein
hey ben, i tryed to look, however, it seems that page is in japanese, my kanji is a bit rusty, or well non existent, thanx anywho
chris hein

Chris, I'd like to do be able to answer your question fully, but I can't. Just keep clicking and you may well find things which lead to your answer. You could argue that the irimi nage variations can be found here:

Arguably, this could be a projection of the 'kokyu' type:

The nature of your question isn't one someone can just provide a link to and "hey presto" - know what I mean? Sorry for sounding rude :smilejapa

Dan Harden
27th November 2002, 10:27
You are making comparisons on technique by what it "looks" like?
Have you done these techniques? Do you know that principles or even the technical mechanics by which they work?
1. It is most certainly not Kokyu and does not function like it at all. A variation of that technique causes a lifting and throwing of the uke on his neck and head. More in keeping with a Koryu type body technique-others have body-ate that involve a deep entering of the body. The correlation to the kokyu technique of Aikido is not there. There other techniques that would fit that comparison far better.

2. The bend over technique compared to shomen ate misses the point of that technique all together.
3. The first description as iriminage has nothing to do with the hanza handachi technique shown which is more in keeping with one of many Shihonage variations. In point of fact, one of the variations of that technique is to cause the bones of the radius and ulna to cross over in such a way as to cause a mechanical "pull" from the uke to the nage. It looks like a magnet drawing him in to and around you which frequently causes a rather dramatic reaction from people seeing it. It is common to have them to want to "feel" what is happening. It is quite painful- but the one throwing does "not" enter with his body. The application causes uke to be drawn "to" nage and wound up without the thrower looking like he is doing much at all. Irimi? Hardly.
Of course I can then argue it is an entering technique anyway. There are hundreds that enter. If you want to talk in general terms then I'll say they're all Irimi.
What you are trying to do here is pointless without experiencing the techniques and doing them a few thousand times.
And even then there will be a disparety among those doing them. There is much "interpretation" going on in any art. Technique done by various people in any given art clearly exhibits their level of understanding of the technique. The relationship that has with the "truth" or "core" of the technique can be very revealing when you see them done by someone else.
Martal arts, ya gotta love em.