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Joseph Svinth
23rd August 2000, 04:29
Down in "Research" I have been asked technical questions about the historical relationship of Daito-ryu and hapkido that are much more technical than I am qualified to answer. And, not really wanting to have two separate threads going, if y'all would drop down there and take a look, I'd appreciate it. :)

Or as Master Po says to Grasshopper (or should have, if he didn't), sometimes the answer isn't knowing the answer, but knowing who to ask.

Nathan Scott
23rd August 2000, 18:31
Hi Mr. Svinth,

Man, this is a hot topic recently. It is being discussed extensively at aikidojournal.com, of which I've been trying to take the time to sort through:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000003.html

Anyway, you mentioned it's down below in "Research Methods", right? What is the name of the thread?

Regards,

Joseph Svinth
23rd August 2000, 21:05
The question was asked in a thread called "Research Sites" (which was the only active thread when I posted last night), and the question is based directly on the Aikido Journal thread you mention.

Willun
3rd November 2000, 19:17
:confused: does Hapkido have any connections to Akijujutsu. Its seems like a lot of Hapkido moves are like sword moves are Aikido.:wave:

Yamantaka
5th November 2000, 09:05
Originally posted by Willun
:confused: does Hapkido have any connections to Akijujutsu. Its seems like a lot of Hapkido moves are like sword moves are Aikido.:wave:

YAMANTAKA : I don't think so but, anyway, there's an excellent discussion in this site :
http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/Forum32/HTML/000003.html
by many aikijujutsu, aikido and Hapkido experts.
Good hunting

glad2bhere
7th November 2000, 14:54
Dear Erik:

I just finished fielding a question along these lines for another person and thought you would find the following information interesting. This is always a subject guarenteed to start a flurry of emails so have fun but be careful.

BTW: Check out that site on AIKIDO JOURNAL.com. Theres' a lot of good info there if I do say so myself.

"Now THAT is the $64 thousand dollar question for the ages!!! I wish I could give you some nice neat yes or no but life doesn’t always work that way. I will tell you what my research has found to date.

The American Hapkido Assn has published an interview with GM Choi and I believe it is still on their website. How about if we use this as a medium for discussing this, ‘kay?

According to the interview, there is no question that GM Choi went Japan when he was very young (8 or 9) and lived there until he was repatriated to Korea after the Second WW. The report is that while in Japan as a small boy at a Buddhist school, GM Choi came to the attention of OS Takeda of the Daito-ryu and stayed with him for the balance of his stay in Japan. So far this is not a problem. Lots of people were moved from Korea to work in Japan and from Japan to populate Korea at that time. GM Suh, in an interview even states GM Chois’ Japanese name (Yoshida Tatujutsu). When GM Choi came back to Korea he reports that all his documents associated with his years in Japan were stolen at a train station. No documents. GM Choi reported in his interview that he had mastered Daito-ryu aikijujitsu and so began teaching what he called “yu sool” or “yawara”.

Now, lets take this a step at a time.

1.) In order to MASTER Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu you need to be awarded a Menkyo Kaiden. There have only been three of these awarded in the Daito-ryu history and GM Choi is not recorded as one of them. Many, many more teaching licenses were issued by the Daito-ryu (Kyoju Dairi) but there is no record of one being issued to GM Choi under either his Korean or Japanese name. There are however, other Korean MA who are listed on the attendence lists in the archives of various factions of the Daito-ryu. There is even a tantalizing rumor that GM Chois’ name can be found in the rosters held by the Daito-ryu Kodokai or the Roppokai but these organizations tend to be very closed lipped about this matter (and anything else as well) and will not allow for an examination of their records.
2.) GM Choi represented himself as one of, if not THE student of OS Takeda, going so far as to say that he, Choi, accompanied Takeda all of Japan and even to Hawaii for a historic presentation in the 1930-s. No records. No one remembers this person. There are no pictures or newsclippings. Not in more than 30 years of “training” is there any record or memory of GM Choi serving in this capacity (or any other that I have been able to find).
3.) The teachings of Daito-ryu can be broken into three levels of sophistication beginning with ju-jitsu, moving to aiki-jujitsu and ending with aikijitsu. The techniques which were integrated into the Korean arts by GM Choi are only of the ju-jitsu level of sophistication. (Now there has been indications of aiki-jujitsu and aikijitsu level technique but this has not been traced to GM Choi and is very inconsistent. This could suggest introduction by another Korean national who also learned Daito-ryu but to a higher level of sophistication, or may be indicative a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence and inspite of the terrible Japanese occupation. Needs more study.)
4.) The teaching of Daito-ryu include Ken-jitsu (Japanese sword techniques) of the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style. There are also Jo (stick), Bo (staff) and knife as well. None of these weapons biomechanics have been identified with Hapkido except as a function of those arts already existing in Korea at the time of GM Chois repatriation. Hapkido practices weapons but after the fashion of traditional Korean weaponry. So one finds Kum-bop instead of Japanese Kendo, cane rather than jo, and Korean staff and spear instead of Japanese Bo. The practice of knife or short-sword has become a matter of personal selection much like the practice of rope or belt techniques. Also the rope techniques are more a function of snaring or entangling rather than binding.

So, where does that leave us.

COULD GM Chois have studied Daito-ryu? Certainly. He also could have taken one of the many seminars offered by OS Takeda and then focused on study in one of the lesser schools. Or he could have just picked-up odd bits during his many years in Japan. Who knows?

Did GM Choi master Daito-ryu? In my opinion, No. There is no documentation, there is no biomechanical evidence, and there is no curricular evidence.

Why does this historical position persist? Follow the money. Hapkido is big business with a minimum of 7 major and hundreds of minor organizations. Nobody is going to step up and say that the emperor has no clothes. And, be careful, those same people don’t want anyone else saying it either!


Now I know you are probably eye-sore reading all this babbling and its not my place to try to convince you one way or another. I just want you to consider ALL sides of the story. Nothing I have said here is anything that you can’t find out for yourself if you just dig a bit. In the meantime I want to mention (briefly, Honest) something you mentioned in your letter.

Just to keep things clear the emptyhand techniques didn’t “come from” the weapons anymore than the weapons techniques “came from” the emptyhand techniques. These techniques (armed and unarmed) share common biomechanics such that if you can perform a particular movement well with you body doing an emptyhanded technique, you will likewise do well performing that same movement with a weapon. A turning movement with a sword is a turning movement for a kick, is a turning movement for a throw, is a turning movement for a strike, yes?

The “entwining” techniques you mentioned (AKA “snaring”) are extant in Hapkido and from what I have been able to find in research may have been preparatory for binding techniques. "Snaring" whether by elbow, knee or ankle is a manipulation taught at BB level (for me, I teach it at first degree BB) along with the limited binding techniques I have been able to uncover. If you locate some of the material of the Daito-ryu you will occasionally find techniques which allow the defender to stand and clap their hands while the attacker is “magically” restrained on the floor. Nearly always there is a knee or ankle snare involved to lock the attackers’ arms behind and allow the defenders’ hands to be free for other duties (such as binding). "

Have at it.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www,midwesthapkido.com

Willun
8th November 2000, 16:46
Thanks alot for your replys :toast:

kadosu777
19th October 2001, 02:12
I'm hukchu.

my grand teacher is Kim Yun Sang who lives in Kumsan at South KOREA( Hapkido 9 degree received from Choi Yiong Sul who is founder of hapkido)and 68 years old.
***** other Hapkido 9 degree from Choi Yiong Sul direct *****
Jang Jin il(newyork USA), Lim Hyung Soo(taegu KOREA)

if you want to see a original AiKi technique of Choi Yiong Sul, you can see from K.Y.S.

he is not use of name "hapkido" but "hapkiyusul" for name of Choi Yiong Sul's technique, because he likes old and origin style of Choi.

recently through open semminar in korea, many martial art researchers and martial art magazine 'MARS' (which is only Martial art zine in korea) have permitted his miracle aiki.

till now, he did't want to be uncovered his technique. but, recently a little chaged.

I have not yet to see any "aiki " in Hapkido.
in the world, many hapkido master exist. but nobody can show "aiki". it's only jujitsu.

but in spite of old age Kim Yun Sang showed "aiki" through open seminar and Korea TV.

many martial art researcher and expert permit his Aiki and a master from Daitoryu Seshinkan in japan who is researching about a root of hapkido have visit him last year, permit "it's Daitoryu". he said "I can't believe Choi who have learned Daitoryu by document, But through Kim Yun Sang Technique, I believe Choi".

GM Kim said despite many student learned hapkido from Choi, only a few student understood his deep technique.

People said "Choi learned a short time and only a jujitsu from Dakeda Sokaku"

But. IT'S A NOT REAL.

GM Kim Yunsang show many Aiki no jitsu including no touch Aiki.

=========================================
he have met Dakeda Minemuthu in hokkaido 1997.5.12.
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/DSC00003.JPG


*******Kim Yun Sang Aiki technique
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/print.cgi?board=data-room&img=1000300114.jpg

** we make the home page(KOREAN) : http://www.hapkiyusul.com
[** H.P. data-room] (http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/main.cgi?board=data-room)

you can see some picture and movie file of hapkiyusul. we are making a English version of this H.P.

[**his video clip from TV documentanry] (http://asx.kbs.co.kr/vod_ad_sk.php?title=Àΰ£±ØÀå&url=2tv/arena$010823.asf)

[his example picture : it's not throw, this is flying technique]
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/this.jpg

[Choi Yiong Sul's flying technique in old seminar]
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/DSC00040.JPG

Kevin73
19th October 2001, 14:59
I don't really have much to add, I just saw this thread and thought it was soo weird. I was just flipping through one of my old issues of Blackbelt magazine and they had the interview with Choi in it, and I was going to post this exact question. Guess I don't have to now.

Nathan Scott
19th October 2001, 19:10
Hello,

It would be easy for anyone to say that their art comes from Daito ryu if they really wanted to.

Sokaku s. was giving seminars since the early 20th century. Ueshiba s. gave seminars, and gave his first open demonstration in 1957. Since that time, aikido has been photographed and filmed openly, free for all to see (and copy).

The evidence supporting formal study of Daito ryu in Korean arts is zero, and is unlikely. It is equally as likely that Sokaku s. went to Korea, studied Tae Kwon Do, and incorporated what he learned into his art.

The historical backgrounds of many Korean martial arts changes constantly.

As far as the photos, the person you are referring to is Takeda Munemitsu. However, I don't think he is affiliated with the Seishinkai - that one is Takeda Masanobu (the third person to incorrectly claim to be soke). In any event, Takeda Munemitsu is a distant relative of Takeda Sokaku, and had apparently received some kind of dan ranking under someone in Daito ryu. Now he is one of three claiming to be the soke of Daito ryu, and has travelled overseas representing himself as such. He does not seem to have much of a following, and is not respected by those within Daito ryu as a leader of any kind in the art. He is the one that gave the last ranks in "aikibudo" to Alain Floquet in France.

The photo provided above was taken in 1997, and shows that he was still using this title.

The kanban in the photo say:

(on the right)

"Daito ryu aikibudo, so-honbu cho - soke, TAKEDA MUNEMITSU".

and (on the left)

"Daito ryu aikijujutsu, (something about Takeda Sokaku, but the kanji it blurred out for some reason), soke TAKEDA MUNEMITSU".

Funny enough, the largest kanji on both kanban are that of Takeda's name, not the art's name.

Anyway, all that photo proves is that someone with no following who was misrepresenting himself allegedly went to Korea two years before his death.

There is another Takeda Munemitsu, who is the younger brother of Takeda Tokimune (previous headmaster of Daito ryu mainline). He incorrectly declared himself the soke of Daito ryu in 1990 or 1991 while Tokimune sensei was in the hospital.

This Takeda Munemitsu passed away in April, 1999 - two years after that photo, so it was probably not him.

I would not look for quotes given recently for insight into Korean martial arts history. I would look for the oldest quotes possible, and then look for evidence to support it. Until evidence is found, it is pointless to continue hashing out the same rumors repeatedly on all the forums.

The discussion that occured on aikido jounral (linked above) is the most comprehensive discussion I've ever seen on the subject. Please read all of that thread if you are interested in this subject.

No disrespect intended toward anyone.

Regards,

Walker
20th October 2001, 01:04
Would somebody involved in the Korean arts grow a backbone and quite believing the hype and the !!!!!!!!? Anyone who thinks that hapkido is Daito ryu should go to their nearest McDojang, stay there and quit bothering the rest of us - oh, and be sure to take plenty of dollars.
You can believe whatever you want, but don’t even try this stuff on anyone other than your most gullible friends.

:burnup:Most definitely the Evil Dougzilla :burnup:
(and probably Yamamoto possessed to boot ‘cause I need a scotch)

kadosu777
20th October 2001, 01:46
The historical backgrounds of many Korean martial arts changes constantly.
==> a few years ago, many people don't know Choi Yiong Sul. Many hapkido old master hide and deceive his all information in public. because they did'nt like that korean know hapkido's real origin where is not from Traditinal Martial Art. But at now many information is opened. so Many hapkido started of putting on Choi's photo at the main wall of Training place.

As far as the photos, the person you are referring to is Takeda Munemitsu. However, I don't think he is affiliated with the Seishinkai - that one is Takeda Masanobu (the third person to incorrectly claim to be soke).
==> I don't know a information that Takeda Munemitsu is affiliated with the Seishinkai.
Pesonally, I have a Seishinkai friends who is master of Seishinkai branch Dojo.

There is another Takeda Munemitsu, who is the younger brother of Takeda Tokimune (previous headmaster of Daito ryu mainline).
==> upper picture is Him. I heard he is the 4th son of Dakeda Sokaku.
Dakeda Tokimune's younger brother. my teacher visit him at hokkaido in japan 1997.
we thought he was the main line of Daitoryu in japan. at that time, we did't know a problem of succession of Daitoryu. when we contacted him again for more interaction, he was dead at 1999.

He incorrectly declared himself the soke of Daito ryu in 1990 or 1991 while Tokimune sensei was in the hospital.
==> http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/M_soke.jpg


This Takeda Munemitsu passed away in April, 1999 - two years after that photo, so it was probably not him.
==> it's him. japan martial art magazine "VISION" visited Kim Yun Sang last year. this picture and others opened their Zine at 06.2000.

Until evidence is found, it is pointless to continue hashing out the same rumors repeatedly on all the forums.
==> we do not find any document evidence. but we can find a possibility of THE EVIDENCE by Aiki Technique of Kim Yun Sang.

The discussion that occured on aikido jounral (linked above) is the most comprehensive discussion I've ever seen on the subject. Please read all of that thread if you are interested in this subject.
==> I had seen that thread and had participated in that old threads are disappeared.

a information of some interviews of Choi that is open are incorrect.
Example : he was born at 1899. but 1904 by some interviews, some articles, and aikido encyclopedia. BlackBelt Magazine is not perpect. more information about Choi exists in korea. I can't interprete this all (korean lang -> English).

if you know Japanese, Please read this article of "VISION"

2000.6
Subject : fantastic technique of Hapkido Founder, Choi Yiong Sul being successed by Kim Yun Sang
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/print.cgi?board=data-room&img=992016203.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/print.cgi?board=data-room&img=992065626.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/print.cgi?board=data-room&img=992067665.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/print.cgi?board=data-room&img=992067983.jpg
http://www.hapkiyusul.com/technote/print.cgi?board=data-room&img=992070639.jpg

Dan Harden
20th October 2001, 03:06
More Korean daydreams and marketing.
Their constant changing of their stories and arts has been a laughing stock for so long it is hardly worth discussing. Do you know how many claim they teach grappling now? Oh, so sorry, "they always had it." Shhhsh its a secret- stenciled on their windows.

If throwing peanut butter became the next fad in the arts- you would see the "ANCIENT art of Korean peanut butter throwing. And if it came from Russia they would have a mystery all set up for ya.......
In the days of Yore (Yore was just after "ancient times" and right before national advertizing called "the good old days")
They had an old Korean explorer who wandered to Russia to be adopted by Vladimer the great, the master of peanut butter throwing, and don't ya know- our Korean friend was destined to succeed his peanut butter master but alas........these poor, poor, Koreans. No one likes them dontcha ya know, so in the fullness of time our intrepid wanderer had to return home and keep hidden the peanut butter techniques he so arduously learned.
That is... until it became popular
Once its a fad...WHAM!! its on every window and in every add across the land,
So much for ancient Korean traditions


You know, most people don't like martial arts in movies. I love em. It keeps all the martial art "tourists" flocking to the mcDojos.
I say Lets buy tickets and hand them out to the kiddies for all the new movies;
"Jumping tigers- flying bears" or "Leaping monkeys"
whatever...

That way all the youngins will tell their friends and mothers;
"I want to do the Kung fu." They can wrap their knuckles on steel and ruin their hands, and they can leap and play hopskotch while they have shiny aluminum weapon thingys flopping and spinning around their heads. And then MAYBE they will stop trying to jump on Daito ryu.

Theres gotta be another another Jackie chan in silk pajamas somewhere that these peope will worship.

Dan
woosh woosh....why there goes another martial artist right there....woosh woosh...what? You can't see him.
Look look...see the black trimmed pajamas with all the badges on it..woosh woosh.....oops
You must have missed him! Hes up in the trees....pruning
woosh....woosh

Nathan Scott
20th October 2001, 07:46
Hi all,

It sounds like Dan got ahold of some of that Ron Duncan on video. I'm still waiting for my autographed photograph - hope my cover isn't blown.

Anyway, I know this kind of thing pushes a button in many of us, but we need to keep the discussion "friendly", and "treat fellow members with respect". It may be an old subject for many of us, but there are some who are asking these questions for the first time.

I could have restrained myself a bit more too, but I just got ahold of an original copy of "Naginata at its Best", featuring Jill Crandall. It was on sale for $9.95 (usually $29.95)! I guess most people don't know the comedic value of this work yet. Mrs. Crandall is a Korean martial art stylist ("certified black belt instructor") who literally destroyed the art of naginata in her authoritative publication of this tape back in 1990. While being very funny, it is also a bit upsetting (to me at least, being a student of ligitimate naginata). I was in kind of a bad mood along these lines when this thread popped up again here.

**

As far as the "proof being in the technique" of Hapkido, I respectfully disagree. There may be similar applications of jujutsu, and aiki as found in other arts like aikido and judo, but they do not have aiki as used in the aiki branches of Daito ryu. This usage of aiki is very hard to learn, and cannot be learned without substantial direct instruction, which is clearly missing from Hapkido.

That's not to say that Hapkido (or other Korean arts) are not good arts, just that there is no inner-application of Daito ryu (stuff that is not found in books and videos) to indicate that direct instruction in Daito ryu - especially aiki - had taken place previosu to the founding of Hapkido.

Again, unless new EVIDENCE is found to support the theory, it is useless to GUESS about what connections there might be.

I could easily make an argument that principles found in all Japanese arts can be found in Chinese arts, and as such perhaps all of them are Chinese in origin. You can't proove me wrong, but I can't prove myself right either. It is simply "unlikely".

Regards,

kadosu777
20th October 2001, 12:34
More Korean daydreams and marketing.
==> it's joking. ahthough I'm 3 degree of Hapkido and have trained for 15 years, I have other good job. Never am I interest in business through my martial art.

I only want to annouce "The truth of Hapkido".
many hapkido and choi's informations were distorted in internet and other sources in abroads. I found this forum recently.
personally I have researched the root of hapkido technique and history for many years.

someone said 'Hapkido is from ANCIENT art of Korean'. it's not true. EXACTLY hapkido is from Choi Yiong Sul.

why do you refer to "Ron Duncan on video"? have I ever sold anything? if I make some video, I'll supply at free by internet.
I am only concern about annoucing "Choi Yiong Sul" and his good technique exactly.

after 60's, most of new generated martial arts in korea rooted in "Choi Yiong Sul"'s technique. (Kido, Kooksool, hapkido, yiongmoodo, kookmoodo, combat art, self defence of taekwondo, ...,)
but their founders do not permit this influence. and said "Acient martial art from deep mountain...) in addtion, old Hapkido masters devaluated Choi's status.



Hapkido may be similar applications of jujutsu, and aiki as found in other arts like aikido and judo
==> it's right exactly. hapkido have one's biomechanical point. but it's different from origin technique of Choi.


but they do not have aiki as used in the aiki branches of Daito ryu. This usage of aiki is very hard to learn, and cannot be

learned without substantial direct instruction,
==>it's right exactly. hapkido is similar to jujitsu. most techniques of hapkido are joint locking and breaking.


which is clearly missing from Hapkido. just that there is no inner-application of Daito ryu (stuff that is not found in books and videos) to indicate that direct instruction in Daito ryu - especially aiki - had taken place previosu to the founding of Hapkido.

==>it's right exactly.
in hapkido video and book, we can not find any aiki concept.

I don't agree with "clearly missing".
I have met a few one generation students who have learned direclty more than 5 years from Choi.
their biomechanical point and application and variation is differ from TODAY hapkido.
my conviction is that next generation more and more forgot the origin biomechanical point, feeling through my experience for

15 years and my personal research. at now, Hapkido produce masters of 5 or 6 generation from choi.
most master show only jujitsu technique. I can't find aikijujitsu(a little found today), aiki-jitsu(never).

GM Kim Yun Sang show the origin technique of Choi, other biomechanical point and Aiki.
after TV broadcasting about Him, many korean martial artist insisted it was trick.
so he hold a open seminar in korea, seoul.

after this seminar, many researcher and master of martial art permited his AiKi.
I was not able to find his technique from other martial arts except daitoryu aiki or YioshinKan shioda.

although I have experienced his Aiki, I can't explain exactly.
he is very small(maybe 160 cm), very light, and 68 years old. but I can't resist his aiki.
other strength youngman, musle power man are same. he use anything. it's not power and do not incline some direction(Hapkido

and judo using this). only my center of body is up-down or disappeared during his some activation.
my daitoryu friends did'nt believed my mention. but when he see and experienced his technique on visiting korea, he permit my mention.


You can't proove me wrong, but I can't prove myself right either. It is simply "unlikely".

I respect for your opinion. "unlikely", "likely" is not important for me.
I am only announcer of the root of hapkido.

GM choi teached his student only 15 technique per a year.
some old master in hapkido have learned only 1 ~ 2 years from choi and attached other martial art technique(chinese martial

art, or kicking from taekkun, or new making and variation technique)
it was a BIG, BIG, BIG mistake in hapkido history.
at 60's and 70's, many hapkido masters are born speedly in spite of short training.
at that time, many hapkido masters are abroad in a world with joint locking, fall-down and kicking.
TODAY, some korean younger masters are persuiting old good and aiki-style biomechanical concept from Choi.
I am one of them.

*********** Choi's one old picture ********
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/multi_choi.gif

kadosu777
23rd October 2001, 07:03
Dear : Bruce


In order to MASTER Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu you need to be awarded a Menkyo Kaiden. There have only been three of these awarded in the Daito-ryu history and GM Choi is not recorded as one of them.
Many, many more teaching licenses were issued by the Daito-ryu (Kyoju Dairi) but there is no record of one being issued to GM Choi under either his Korean or Japanese name.
==> it's true.


There are however, other Korean MA who are listed on the attendence lists in the archives of various factions of the Daito-ryu.
==> it's true
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/daito_korean.JPG


There is even a tantalizing rumor that GM Chois?name can be found in the rosters held by the Daito-ryu Kodokai or the Roppokai but these organizations tend to be very closed lipped about this matter (and anything else as well) and will not allow for an examination of their records.
==>rumor is only rumor. but some people said as if it is true.
till now, nobody have ever found any record about Choi in Japan.


2.) GM Choi represented himself as one of, if not THE student of OS Takeda, going so far as to say that he, Choi, accompanied Takeda all of Japan and even to Hawaii for a historic presentation in the 1930-s. No records. No one remembers this person. There are no pictures or newsclippings. Not in more than 30 years of “training?is there any record or memory of GM Choi serving in this capacity (or any other that I have been able to find).
==> today, it's true. but few people persuade and research deeply about history of Choi.
only we heard some scrap from Choi's interview, some hapkido books, old hapkido zines and Stanley Pranin's allude to Choi's history.
I want to be many researchers and historian of martial art taking a interest about this.
if someone have interviewed with Choi, please open interview audio file by internet.


3.) The teachings of Daito-ryu can be broken into three levels of sophistication beginning with ju-jitsu, moving to aiki-jujitsu and ending with aikijitsu.
The techniques which were integrated into the Korean arts by GM Choi are only of the ju-jitsu level of sophistication.

==>GM Choi did not intergate his techinque in hapkido. some his students who learned only 1 ~ 2 years, have integrated and transformed Choi's technique. this is diffrence of hapkido(mordern style) and hapkiyusul(origin style).


Now there has been indications of aiki-jujitsu and aikijitsu level technique but this has not been traced to GM Choi and is very inconsistent.
==> many hapkido masters are developing new hapkido technique. it's possible in hapkido. but, hapkiyusul is traning only old techniques. some hapkido master who don't know the word "AIKI" uses a 'aiki concept' in one's technique but it's not from Choi.
I think GM Choi teached Aiki concept. but a few student understand this.


This could suggest introduction by another Korean national who also learned Daito-ryu but to a higher level of sophistication, or may be indicative a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence and inspite of the terrible Japanese occupation. Needs more study.)
==>althought technical origin is from Choi, a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence is today HAPKIDO and KookSul, etc.
Choi's technique is from Daitoryu, Japan. it call "hapkiyusul(aikijujitsu)" or "yawara", "hapkiyukeonsul" or "hapkisul(aiki no jitsu) in korea.


4.) The teaching of Daito-ryu include Ken-jitsu (Japanese sword techniques) of the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style.
==> in Choi's teaching, Ken-jitsu was the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style.
old Aikodachi Picture of Choi's Dojo in korea.
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/kendo_1970.jpg


There are also Jo (stick), Bo (staff) and knife as well. None of these weapons biomechanics have been identified with Hapkido except as a function of those arts already existing in Korea at the time of GM Chois repatriation.
==> Jo (stick), Bo (staff), Ken technique existed in choi's technique with shuriken
and jutte technique but in hapkido, a nunjaku, a crook cane, a sickle, a fan technique were from other source or developed spontaneously.


Hapkido practices weapons but after the fashion of traditional Korean weaponry. So one finds Kum-bop instead of Japanese Kendo, cane rather than jo, and Korean staff and spear instead of Japanese Bo.
==> it's real of Hapkido in korea. in general, korea dislikes japan, many hapkido people in korea did'nt want to accept Choi's influence about hakido. many recreated and remaked matial art that is hapkido style come from.
Hapkido is mordern martial art and are continuously developing. but some old style master teach Choi's original technique with persistence till now.


The practice of knife or short-sword has become a matter of personal selection much like the practice of rope or belt techniques. Also the rope techniques are more a function of snaring or entangling rather than binding.
==> maybe, rope and belt technique is from choi, but slicely deformed.


############ reference of weapon technique ######### it's only my privite research.

(Daitoryu) ------------- (Hapkido)

Kenjutsu ------------- Kumsool or Kumbub(Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style)

Kumiuchi ------------- KieokKum(Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style)

Sojutsu ------------- Jang Bong Sul

Wakizashijutsu ------------- * TODAY only a few (Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style)

Tantojutsu ------------- * included in Dan Kum Sul, Dan bong sul

Tessenjutsu ------------- * included in Dan bong sul

Shuriken jutsu ------------- * TODAY, very rare (because of prohibit from police)

Bojutsu ------------- Jang Bong Sul, Dan Jang Sul

Toraejutsu ------------- PobakSul (origin is used to a iron chain in korea)

Juttejutsu: ------------- Dan Bong Sul

Today, some hapkido dojos are training Korea Traditional Kumsool instead of Daitoryu Kenjitsu.

in korea, knife ( more than 20 cm)and sword are illegal weapon that must be enrolled in Police Office. So, KenJitsu is not spread in korea.

hkdtodd
23rd October 2001, 13:01
I just got back from my yearly trip to Korea and noticed this thread. Very interesting!

There will always be arguments and disagreements about Hapkido,Hapki Yu Sool,Yawara,Dai Dong Ryu Hapki Yu Sool.

I do understand why there is so much negativity around Hapkido simply because most of what is called Hapkido IS NOT. GM Lim just laughs when I bring him American MA mags, with all the so called 7th,8th,9th and even 10th dans it really is a sad joke for Doju Choi's Hapkido. The Mudo that Doju Choi taught DID AND STILL DOES have Aiki (Hapki). According to Grandmaster Lim,Hyun Soo Choi had many students but most only trained with him for 1,2 -5 years and many of those only part time so it only makes sense that the true essence of Hapkido could be missed and being missed why not add a few more kicks or weapons tech. to make up for ones lack of understanding!!

GM Lim also stated that Choi would only teach around 15 tech. or principles for the first year. Hapkido is a system of principles not just individuale techniqes. In the Jungki Kwan there are 15 tech. for white belt and I had the privilege to see GM Lim demonstrate those tech. in there purity with a full measure of Hapki and it is really hard to explain, you just have to see it and feel it for yourself. GM Lim will be coming to the Northeast next September for some seminars in Hapki and Guhap/Iai and special training sessions and I strongly encourage everyone who is interested in Aiki/Hapki and swordsmanship to make it up here to NH to take part in this whether you doubt or beleive that Hapkido decended from Daito Ryu or not. Hapki/Aiki is or is not, no matter what one says.

Just my humble opinion
Todd L. Miller
US Director Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.

kadosu777
23rd October 2001, 14:10
Dear Todd

I'am glad to meet you.
In korea, I heard about JungGiKwan at Taegu.
He has good technique and mind I heard.
at now, the people who received 9 degree from Choi Young Sul Dojunim are only three "Jang chil il", "Kim yun Sang", "Lim Hyun Soo". it's truth of hapkido.

recently G.M. Kim yun sang opened his aiki in public(Broadcast, Magazine, seminar...).
I think these three direct students is announced at abroad and in korea. resultly, we must upgrade status of Choi Dojunim each other. if you come to korea again, contact me. I'll invit you in my martial art space "Yiong Sul Kwan".

thanks for reading

kadosu777
26th October 2001, 01:57
this is new video clip.
I made twp short video clip from documntary.
G.M. Kim Yun Sang Video Clip 1 (http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/human1.mpg)
G.M. Kim Yun Sang Video Clip 2 (http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/human2.mpg)

edg176
26th October 2001, 07:40
Hello,

I've followed this thread for a while, and although I only practiced Hapkido for four years, I have a few ideas about the whole origin question that I haven't seen aired anywhere. Here goes. I should add that I don't practice Hapkido any more. I've been reading a lot of nonsense here about "traditional Korean weapons" and it makes me ill. All I can say is that if the "traditional Koreans" practiced weapons the way I've seen them practiced it's surprising there are any Koreans alive today at all.

The upper ranks learned the short stick (like under 14 inches) and cane mostly. Now I know some people claim the cane is a "traditional" Korean weapons, but personally I suspect it comes from the Shinto-muso-ryu tanjo techniques that Meik Skoss has commented about on E-budo. Why? My theory is that it came to Korea during the Japanese occupation, since at that time a Japanese "gentleman" in western dress might carry a walking stick as a handy weapon while abroad. Maybe the Japanese taught some Koreans who just subsumed it under the "Hapkido" banner. I really would like to see someone perform some SMR tanjo kata so I could compare them, but that's my suspicion as to the origin.

As far as the short stick goes, one of my friends who was with an International Hapkido federation school showed me the moves he learned for two short sticks and it looked like a sai kata from one of Richard Kim's kobujutsu books...

From what I saw of the techniques as taught at our school they were waaaaaay too slow to apply with a short stick, especially at short range. There's too much windup, and it's unnecessary with a stick that short when you can use the wrist. On the other hand if the techniques were developed with an iron bar (jutte?) in mind, I think that it would work.

Neither the cane nor the short stick really seem to come from the same source--they seem like add ons to the unarmed component. I think it's possible that the Japanese police in Korea used the jutte and the tanjo and the Koreans picked it up from there. I never saw any drills to teach "aliveness" or striking skills with the weapons and I think most people (aside from a few physical geniuses out there) would get their clock cleaned using those techniques the way we were trained.

Mostly we learned joint-locks, which and I say this from my experience sparring in eskrima, you will hardly ever get to use in a real situation, except incidentally. First you have to know how to hit and block, otherwise you can't survive to get the lock!

Frankly, compared to Kendo or the Filipino martial arts that I've seen the weapons in Hapkido are a joke.

With respect to the whole Daito-ryu/aiki thing goes the Hapkido that I saw was mostly just the self-defense katas from Judo (kime no kata and goshin jutsu) but applied against a combination front punch/ front kick or other striking attack. Actually the head instructor at our school was a judo guy from the beginning so maybe that's why. Very little standup randori, so that with a few talented exceptions no one had a clue. Including me. That's why I quit Hapkido and started Judo. We did spend some time rolling on the ground (again, from Judo), and that wasn't so bad.

The strikes were mostly from taekwondo, including the reverse punch and everyone's favorite, the deadly snap roundhouse. We were encouraged to do heavy bag work, which was not bad from the standpoint of an aerobic workout.

There were some "aiki" looking techniques but, with the exception of the head intstructor and his top student, the only reason anyone would fall is because they jumped. There was no systematic teaching whatsoever of any real principles of movement, just a lot of essentially unconnected techniques.
Thus, no one could really apply anything, although damn, remembering it now it looked really great in demos.

Now I saw some guys from LA who practiced with us, and
they sparred a lot, but only kicking and punching. They weren't too bad, but again, lots of spinning kicks and flashy hand techniques. Not much grappling or joint locks.

If you look at the backgrounds of the guys who started teaching Hapkido in the U.S., they had backgrounds in judo, tkd and kendo. I think that was the reason that they had such a reputation as fighters in the 70's when no one was cross training. However, for some reason (and I have a pretty dark suspicion about the reason) the later students learned less and less.

Look at the weapons for example. If you had a lot of sparring time in kendo you would learn how to control range. Then when someone handed you another weapon (like a cane or a stick) you could learn the locking techniques pretty quick and then apply them in the striking framework you had from kendo. Without that experience it would be hard to apply the locks.

Same with a lot of the jujutsu/aiki techniques. If you had a heavy judo background you'd know how to grapple already and it wouldn't be too hard, I think to learn how to throw someone in a way that would dislocate their shoulder, for example.

On the whole, I have not been impressed with Hapkido, since I think that the training methodology is lacking. That is, the orignial Korean instructors to come to the U.S. (in my experience) didn't find a way to take all the tkd/judo/aikido/jujutsu/kendo stuff they knew and streamline it into a system. I'd be interested to see how the people who practice Mochizuki Minoru's system resolved that problem.

The Koreans had a good idea to combine weapons training, grappling and striking into one system, but personally I think that the mixed martial arts people do a lot better job, particularly people like the Dog Brothers, Shootwrestling, the Gracies and others. The Koreans had a shot at it in the 70's, but they blew it. I should add that the original instructors and their first generation of students from the seventies that I saw were very good, in some cases exceptional.

I watched people spend years and years struggling to learn and still having little to show in terms of practical application. Bottom line--as far as I've seen, Hapkido is a tremendous waste of time and I wish I'd just started with Judo, in dojo that also teaches the self-defense part or at a place like Cahill's where they do judo and Danzan-ryu. I'd recommend others do the same.

Tim Fong

hkdtodd
26th October 2001, 12:13
Tim,

I understand your feeling about Hapkido and it being ineffective in some ways. I too was ready to give up on Hapkido until I found a Grandmaster that trained with the founder (Doju Nim Choi, Yong Sool)from 1964 until he passed away in 1986.

All things called Hapkido ARE NOT the same. Many of those involved with Aikido & Aiki-Jutsu claim that Hapkido does not have Aiki and I will agree most Hapkidoins in fact do not understand this concept but there are MANY Aikdoins and Aiki-Jutsu practioners who have the same problem. There are however some Hapkidoins and some Aikidoins who do understand Aiki/Hapki.

My point is that Aiki/Hapki are very difficult concepts and just like your not going to go into McCdonalds or Burger King to find a fine piece steak, your not going to just look at a sign that says traditional Hapkido and find it.

I have seen and trained with people from many styles of Hapkido and Have found 1 that teaches the Hapkido that Choi,Yong Sool taught. I know there are a few others such as Kodosu and GM Kim who understand the meaning of Hapki but there are only a few.

Saying Hapkido does not have any Hapki/Aiki at all is just plain NOT TRUE. I have seen it, felt it and studied it. It is there. I hope that when GM Lim comes to the USA next September that those truely interested in the truth of Hapki will come and see for yourself.

Take care
TM

hkdtodd
26th October 2001, 12:19
Kodosu,

You mentioned the Korean Martial Arts magazine MARS. Is GM Kims article in the 9/10 issue. I was able to pick it up while I was in Korea. Now I just need to have it translated into english.

Take care
Todd

Brently Keen
26th October 2001, 17:20
With all due respect and apologies for being repetitive, I just posted a similar response on AJ's BB:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000086

The above video clips do not prove or suggest any connection between Choi and Sokaku Takeda. Nor do the techniques shown bear any resemblance to Daito-ryu aiki. These are the claims of most all teachers and styles descended from Choi that are always being disputed. To date there has been no evidence to back these claims.

Todd wrote:

"Saying Hapkido does not have any Hapki/Aiki at all is just plain NOT TRUE. I have seen it, felt it and studied it. It is there."

No disrespect intended to you or your teacher Todd, but I have studied Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu for some time now, and I have to disagree. I suspect that what you are referring to is in fact a "concept of aiki/hapki" that is no different than that found in aikido and many other styles. Daito-ryu aiki is another thing altogether, and that's what this debate has been all about.

Brently Keen

hkdtodd
26th October 2001, 19:46
Brently,

The concept of Aiki/Hapki is or is not. What I mean is you either have it or you do not. To say that Daito Ryu are the only ones who have Aiki is pretty arrogant and naive. I have seen many so called Daito Ryu people who did not have a good understanding of the Aiki concept. I think this problem is universal, not everyone will get it. Wheather you are from Aikido, Hapkido or Daito Ryu.

It seems to me that the Aikido,Daito Ryu people in general are just not willing to even entertain the thought of a Korean Martial Art being on the same level as the Japanese art of Daito Ryu, I could be wrong!? I think it is more the American practioners that have this we are the only ones attitude because the Koreans & Japanese seem to have a very good and respectfull attitude toward what is TRUE.

Just my thoughts
Todd

edg176
26th October 2001, 20:47
Todd,

Thanks for the info. I guess I should clarify my points.
I don't doubt there are very impressive high level people out there (hell I've seen a few) but my problem is they don't seem to transmit it to their students very well. I currently am back in the SF Bay Area and if GM Lim comes within driving distance of here I'll definitely check him out.

I should also clarify what I mean by "aiki." I'm talking about throws which use the opponents momentum or "blending" only and not momentum and leverage together. For example, most judo throws I've seen use leverage and momentum to throw the opponent, and I classify aiki techniques in my mind as using only momentum or pain from a joint-lock.

That said, when I see video of Ueshiba Morihei in action something entirely different that I don't understand is going on. I don't know what the heck that is, and I assume it's that "Daito-ryu aiki" we hear so much about.

Brently,

Do you think that is the Daito-ryu aiki that you're talking about? Is there some place in the SF Bay area where I could watch that kind of aiki, or is it a closed-door thing for the most part? I have to say honestly at first when I read some of your posts about Daito-ryu aiki I thought you were a really arrogant guy, but after watching the Ueshiba videos I'm convinced that you're probably right and something else is going on that I don't understand and for the most part no one in aikido really understands either, i.e. the thread "What did Ueshiba really know."


Everyone else,
Could someone who actually practices tanjojutsu weigh in on its possible transmission to Korea? Was someone teaching the SMR arts there during the occupation?

Thanks
Tim Fong

Walker
26th October 2001, 21:30
The point is not if there is any aiki laying about, Daito or otherwise, in Hap Ki [whichever]. The point is how many re-versions of history are we going to tolerate from Korean martial artists and more specifically, is the current tale about Sokaku Takeda and Daito Ryu more than merely laughable.:redhot:
So far we haven’t seen anything technically or historically to support the story.
Perhaps Gen. Choi was serving a different Takeda in Japan who sold dry goods?:confused:

Arman
26th October 2001, 22:03
No "aiki" discussions please. Nothing will be solved or agreed upon on a BB. I can't feel your aiki through the internet (thank god), so let's just leave such discussions for the mat.

Sincerely,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

Brently Keen
26th October 2001, 22:29
Todd,

This has nothing to do with arrogance or naivete' or nationality. Except perhaps for those who continue to assert without evidence that their arts have what they do not. It's not a question of attitude or willingness, it is a question of truth, but you apparently don't want to admit it when you haven't even got a case to be made.

The facts are there is just no evidence to support either Choi or his student's claims to a connection with Sokaku Takeda. There isn't a shred or hint of truth to the notion that Choi lived with Sokaku. The various theories aren't even plausable. The technical evidence is also completely lacking, there just isn't any discernable traces of Daito-ryu aiki in any of the Hapki-arts.

You are right about one thing and that is that many people don't get it. But what most people are thinking about when they say "aiki/hapki" is very different than what Daito-ryu considers to be aiki. In Daito-ryu, aiki has a number of specific characteristics, that define what it is. If you can't demonstrate those characteristics then you obviously haven't got it, nor can you define what it is with any authority.

Please understand, I'm not talking about effectiveness here - many people are effective, many more are not. I'm talking about the characteristics of Daito-ryu aiki. Without those characteristics, it's not aiki, it's something else that you're choosing to call "aiki". From my perspective, that something else is not the real thing - because it's calling itself what it's not - it's not genuine, it's misrepresenting itself.

Let me give an example:

If I was a boxer who only uses my hands to strike, but started calling my punches holds - I might knock you out with my left right combo, but then if told everyone that was my Russian two-on-one (hey, I hit you twice), I'd be full of you know what. Boxing as a sport doesn't allow or teach such holds, and because everyone is familiar with boxing, everyone knows that. It'd be even worse if I said I learned my "Russian two-on-one" from Alexander Karalin, when I was a kid growing up in Russia, he sorta adopted me and took me in and taught me his stuff. But later all of Alexander's family, and friends, and coaches, military buddies, and opponents could never remember me, it'd be obvious that I was making it all up. Now let's say I start teaching seminars and advertising myself as a student of Alexander's, teaching his style of wrestling, but all my techniques resembled boxing techniques like jabs, hooks, and combos, and none were Olympic wrestling moves, it'd be obvious to anyone who knew anything about wrestling that I was mis-representing not only Alexander, but also the whole sport of wrestling. I doesn't matter how good I may be at what I do, I'm still far from having any wrestling moves in my repertoire and I'm even further from telling the truth.

Unlike wrestling and boxing not everyone is familiar with Daito-ryu aiki. Those who are, are much better at discerning the differences between it and other things.

Before I launch us all back into another aiki war, you should go back and read some of the old threads here. Aiki and what it is has been discussed ad nauseam.

Brently Keen

Brently Keen
26th October 2001, 22:35
Arman,

:nono: Watch out for Neil Y. His aiki and that of a handful of followers has been known to fly via high speed internet lines and knock some of us right on our kush's!

Brently Keen

hkdtodd
26th October 2001, 23:13
Brently,

Have you ever seen or trained with Choi, Yong Sool or any of his highest ranking students? ----------- I did not think so. So you cannot really say with any authority that Hapkido has somthing different than Daito Ryu as far as Aiki/Hapki.

I had to travel half way around the world to find true Dai Dong Ryu Hapkido/Taegu, Korea and as I said GM Lim will be in NH next September but but that is a loooooong drive. I assure it would be worth the trip and I would personally guarantee you would learn and be pleasantly surprized.

Todd;)

Dan Harden
27th October 2001, 00:10
Todd

I live in Mass. I would be very interested in feeling this mans technique, and its similarities, or lack thereof, to Daito ryu first hand. Please let us know when he is coming.
I have been on the mats with Chiba, Yamada, Kannai, Hakko ryu teachers, Hapkido teachers dozens of Aikidoka etc. etc, and I have never felt anyone-anywhere- that feels like Daito ryu; except Daito ryu (the closest I have come was in a Koryu jujutsu) And my opinion is not for lack of trying, I searched for the similarities

I dont care to debate anyones definitions of Aiki.
One art may call very small circle jujutsu -"Aiki"
Others call >only< blending energy "Aiki,"
Still others will show you what "appears" to be a head to head crashing that is really a capturing as well as many blending technqiues and they call it "Aiki"
Still others call only the controlling of the interval, the forstalling of technqiue completions, and deceptive motions that capture the energy...."Aiki."
Whatever.
I am really addressing one point and one point only
What Daito ryu calls Aiki.

And mind you, I am not discussing effectiveness, there are any number of people in different arts who are able. Let me give an example: I am told that some Yanagi guys can really handle themselves -but I don't think that because they can handle themselves they are doing Goju ryu. They are doing Yanagi ryu-some; really really well.

I don't care to debate the effectiveness of your chosen art. And that isn't the point anyway. Hapkido people have claimed some rather incredible, and as yet unproven, connections to Sokaku. It seems to me that it is reasonable to expect that such claimed "lengthy and close contact" would have had a heavy enough influence on this Hapkido technique, to make it bear a very close resemblence to Daito ryu. After all even though Sokakus students went different ways-there is enough left to plainly see "the Daito ryu" in their Daito ryu.
I know of no one in Daito ryu who "sees" these similarities in Hapkido or others who have researched both who see the comparisons, nor is it something which I have yet to see personally.
Trust me when I tell you, you can go from one style of Daito ryu to another and you will see things in common that are inescapable. Yes there are different ways of doing things, but there remain certain glaringly obvious indicators of origin (which I will not discuss).
So far as I have seen Hapkido fails to deliver even the most basic building blocks of these similarites- building blocks upon which so much advanced technique is based. That is why I would love to feel it and have my eyes opened to another possibility.

Again , I am happy that you have found something effective and that you enjoy


Cheers
Dan

hkdtodd
27th October 2001, 01:46
I personally could care less who Choi, Yong Sool trained with but he claimed to have been a diciple of Sokaku for 29 or 30 years and being in Korea this claim would not have been of benefit to him due to the Koreans experience with the Japanese.

All I really know is that I have experienced Daito Ryu and many different styles of Hapkido and of all GM Lim has somthing no other that I have seen has.

Dont get me wrong I have a great deal of respect for Martial Truth, wheather you call it Aiki, Hapki or myki.

In my research I have been trying to boil down all the hype and grandios claims and get to the truth of the Martial Arts, Mainly Aiki Jujutsu and Hapkido and have found that the two arts are somewhat different but at there highest levels they are in fact the same.;)

I would love to attent any Daito Ryu training sessions or semminars if they are open to lowly hapkido folk (I say that with a smile and no disrespect).

Yours truely in the truth of the Mudo/Budo
Todd
US Director
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.

kadosu777
27th October 2001, 02:51
till visiting "Yiong Sool Kwan" in korea, My japan Martial art friends who is Sheshinkai Daitoryu master did't believe my comment. but, after visiting, he said "it's daitoryu".
and then, he reported this to "HIDDEN" - Japan Martial Art Magazine.

Never we can find any record of GM Choi in Japan.
RECORD is the best important point for histrian but we are different.

Higher Dan(8th, 9th, 10th) or Certificate is not proof of higer technique and skill of possessor.
if 10th degree master's skill is lower than 5th degree,
who want to learn from 10th degree?

technically Martial artist must classfy bad hapkido or good hapkido or good daitoryu or bad daitoryu ,being same to other art. I have experienced both Daitoryu and Hapkiyusul(old style hapkido).

despite of training general HAPKIDO for 15 years in seoul, from few years ago I am starting all over again HAPKIDO that is origin style in 'Yoing Sul Kwan'. the technical point of Choi's that learned from there is perfectly different from general Hapkido in korea.

despite of no recording, Choi's technique give a clue of relation with Hapkido and Daitoryu. it's my private researching subject.
OPEN YOUR EYES and OPEN YOUR MIND.

thanks reading

Hukchu

Jay Bell
27th October 2001, 04:18
Hi Tim,


There were some "aiki" looking techniques but, with the exception of the head intstructor and his top student, the only reason anyone would fall is because they jumped.

You absolutely said a mouthful there. My limited exposure to Hapkido came from when my ex-wife was studying it in Bloomington, Indiana.

During a trip there, she was testing for her belt exam. The test itself was about 20 people doing whatever the "judge" called them to do. When they teamed up together to perform throws, it was exactly as you stated. Incredibly weak form, and the uke jumping into a dive and landing on their backs.

I sealed my lips, smile and congradulated her on her new promotion. Later that day, she asked me to allow her to do some wrist locks on me. I was game. I stood limp, not resisting at all...and came quickly to understand just what it was about the throws that I earlier witnessed that made them ineffective. They didn't work.

Again..no resistance whatsoever. I stood and allowed her to lock my wrist as she would...and it had no effect. Once again, I damn near bit through my tongue. She became frustrated and I just let her know that it took time to get comfortable with the movements in a perticular art.

That said...I've seen demos of Daito ryu. Unfortunately I have never felt nor experianced nage or anything much else from the Daito ryu mindset. I can, however, say that nothing I have ever experianced or seen was anything similar to that of Daito ryu (or Aikido).

Before the Hapkidoka let the dogs out, understand that I'm not saying that all Hapkido is ineffective or anything rediculous like that. If we look at the video clips posted earlier, what was being shown looks very effective. Again, it does not look at all very "aiki" that I've seen from the Daito ryu perspective. It looks very rigid and "hard" (for lack of a better word).

blahblahblah, ramblerambleramble

Take care, all

Jay

Nathan Scott
27th October 2001, 08:12
Hello,

I'd like to make a few quick comments:

1) As others have pointed out, until new evidence is introduced, this discussion is going nowhere. All this has been argued and re-hashed on this BBS and the aikido journal BBS. After you've read through all of that, feel free to post any further questions or comments that may remain. I don't think there will be any!

2) GM Choi DID NOT train under Sokaku sensei for 29 or 30 years! This is impossible for a mutltitude of reasons. If your interested in Daito ryu history, PLEASE buy and read "Conversations with Daito ryu masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News, and "Aikido Masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News.

3) The majority of people have not seen "Daito ryu aiki". Far less people have felt it, and even less understand why it works. Kondo sensei doesn't really show any publicly (that I've seen), and Okamoto sensei has his own specialty and slant on DR aiki - which is ligit of course, but not fully representative. No offense, but the Seishinkai is not the most credible source for "Daito ryu confirmation", nor is Takeda Munemitsu or the Saigo-ha Daito ryu.

If someone would like to submit a video or MPEG movie of GM Choi or someone else performing methods that appear to come from direct instruction in Daito ryu, we'd be thrilled to view it.

Again, this is a Japanese Aikijujutsu forum, and the several of the people contributing here have substantial experience in the arts, and have done alot of research.

It's not that we don't have an open mind, we just don't want to jump to conclusions based off of ever-changing hearsay. If you think about it, Daito ryu would stand to benefit from the status of claiming themselves the technical influence of Hapkido. There is no reason why anyone would want to bury such a history with Korea, if one did in fact exist.

I'd be all for calling it a day with this thread...

Regards,

Brently Keen
27th October 2001, 09:40
Todd,

I think it's fair to say that I speak from real experience and knowledge of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. My experience with other arts is also rather extensive, however, I've got no need drop names and brag about who I've seen and trained with over the years. This is the last that I will say on this subject.

I don't merely make claims on behalf of my teacher, I can and do demonstrate and teach the distinctions I've been talking about.

I can also provide evidence that proves my lineage to Sokaku Takeda.

No one in the Hapki arts has yet been able to do either.

Brently Keen

hkdtodd
27th October 2001, 21:42
For those of you who have sent me private messages. I am not able to read them. If you would like to send me a message, Send to hkdtodd@ttlc.net

Thanks
Todd

hkdtodd
27th October 2001, 21:50
Brently and others,

I mentioned earlier, Have you trained with Choi, Yong Sool or GM Lim, Hyun Soo the answer is no. So why do you speak as though you have??? I am sure you have a great deal of experience and I am sure you are very good. Nothing would please me more than to get on the mat with you an I am sure BOTH you and I would learn some things. I know all this talk really does not matter it is what you can do on the mat that counts. Maybe some day people can put there egos aside and do just that?

Hapki
Todd

kadosu777
29th October 2001, 09:46
Dear Nathan Scott

thanks for your moderating.

1) As others have pointed out, until new evidence is introduced, this discussion is going nowhere. All this has been argued and re-hashed on this BBS and the aikido journal BBS. After you've read through all of that, feel free to post any further questions or comments that may remain. I don't think there will be any!
==> it's only your decision.
if you have a attachment of Certificate of Martial art, I can't show anything. BUT, many hapkido or hapkiyusul(aikijukitsu) member want to know a good information of GM Choi.
it is very difficult for me to find some picture of GM Choi.
unlike Uhesiba Mrihei, many students of GM Choi (who was an illiterate Teacher) betrayed and hide him under history of Hapkido for a honor of themselves.

I'll be introduce many information by internet about Choi.
- picture, video clip, some related documents ..., and so on.
I want to GM Choi be annouced correctly for the aspect of history and technique.
===============================
2) GM Choi DID NOT train under Sokaku sensei for 29 or 30 years! This is impossible for a mutltitude of reasons. If your interested in Daito ryu history, PLEASE buy and read "Conversations with Daito ryu masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News, and "Aikido Masters" edited by Stanley Pranin; Aiki News.
==> I have read some years ago. it's only daitoryu master's experience and only verbal interview(you hated some verbal descrption) in japan. this book can't show any evidence of your 'a multitude of reasons'. it's only verbal. GM Choi have interviewed with many people(korean, american..,).
if we make some book with collecting this interview, do you believe my word?

your saying "GM Choi DID NOT train under Sokaku sensei for 29 or 30 years! " how do you confirm this? have you any evidence of this history? because of only Stanley Pranin's interview book?
if you want to confirm this by your sense of values, you might provide any objective document by no being verbal interview.
you think that verbal interviews of CHoi is only a information, being no evidence of truth or not. follwing your thought, verbal interview of daitoryu masters in that book is no evidence...,

Choi's jujitsu and aikijitsu technique are more than 500 except armed technique.
despite being practicing general hapkido for 15 years, I can't learned easily the origin hapkido style "hapkiyusul" because of the depth and difficuty of Choi's technique.
for mastering and using freely one technique, it takes over one year (required time). it's my experience.
GM Choi teached only 10 ~ 15 technique in a year.
I can't believe that Choi have learned his technique in a short time seminar in japan.

if my insistence of Choi is not true,
who have teached him all many and deep technique? where is from? why can't I find a resembling technique in other japan old jujitsu except daitoryu?

==============================
3) The majority of people have not seen "Daito ryu aiki". Far less people have felt it, and even less understand why it works. Kondo sensei doesn't really show any publicly (that I've seen), and Okamoto sensei has his own specialty and slant on DR aiki - which is ligit of course, but not fully representative. No offense, but the Seishinkai is not the most credible source for "Daito ryu confirmation", nor is Takeda Munemitsu or the Saigo-ha Daito ryu.
==> do you think that only Kondo or Okamoto sensei have 'Daitoryu Aiki'? it's your limit. our teacher do not show his real Aiki technique publicly, too.

have you hold a hand of Minemuthu for practicing?
some member of "Yiong Sul Kwan" met him at 1997, and hold his hand. despite of grasping strongly by a strength and big wrist man who can't fasten a wrist button of shirt , old and sick Minemuthu submitted him by daitoryu technique. Minemuthu was skillful, too.

================================
If someone would like to submit a video or MPEG movie of GM Choi or someone else performing methods that appear to come from direct instruction in Daito ryu, we'd be thrilled to view it.
==> I'll upload a video clip of GM Choi as soon as possible.
we have good technique resource (video) of GM Kim Yun Sang at open seminar in seoul. but GM Kim do not want to open it publicly.
if you know Daitoryu, you feel something from my uploding some pictures and video clip in this BB.

================================
Again, this is a Japanese Aikijujutsu forum, and the several of the people contributing here have substantial experience in the arts, and have done alot of research.
==> I want to their good and deep advise about my resources.
if someone have done a lot of research, Is it perpectly true?
and then, who can participate in this BB? only japan aikijujitsu people? and then, you must act this BB by access control technique in Internet.
who have done a lot of research about GM Choi?

================================
It's not that we don't have an open mind, we just don't want to jump to conclusions based off of ever-changing hearsay.
==> I will provide all information of GM Choi publicly which I had had. through my resource, I want "ever-changing hearsay of GM choi" to be changed a little.

================================
If you think about it, Daito ryu would stand to benefit from the status of claiming themselves the technical influence of Hapkido.
==>
many Hapkido master did'nt want to annouce GM Choi publicly, being like a influence of Japan martial art.
But it's not truth of GM Choi.

================================
There is no reason why anyone would want to bury such a history with Korea, if one did in fact exist.
==>
Aikido was opened at foreigner from birth time.
But Daitoryu was japan palace martial art. have ever listened a name of Foreigner? American or others?

some japanese martial artist insisted to me "Sokaku teached Daitoryu only japanese because of palace art.".
but for helping my japan friends, I can find some korean in daitoryu enrollment at abarashi.

regards,

hukchu

Arman
29th October 2001, 15:02
You know, now that you mention it, I'm starting to realize that Sokaku Takeda most likely learned Daito-ryu FROM GM Choi! I mean, I don't see any real evidence to the contrary. Who cares what the enrollment books show - it doesn't mean Sokaku didn't first learn from GM Choi. If that's the case, as I'm beginning to suspect, then that means that not only Daito-ryu, but also Aikido, owe their existence to. . .GM Choi!
Thanks for helping me see the light. Whew.

Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Baltimore, MD

hkdtodd
29th October 2001, 15:18
It is sad to see so many closed minded people. I will be the first to admit that there is no written evidence at least to my knowlege about Choi, Yong Sool learning Daito Ryu from Sokaku Takeda. This does not mean that it did not happen. What some of you are saying is that if it is not written down it could not have happened. This argument will never be solved by talk. I think that the OBVIOUS similaritys between Daito Ryu and Dai Dong Ryu Hapkido speak for themselves.

Many people make claims about their origin that are false including some that call themselves Daito Ryu, it is not just a Hapkido problem.

What ever became of studying other arts to learn more about your own style of preferance?

I welcome those that would like to see what the original Hapkido is like to stop by my dojang and I would be happy to share in the TRUE spirit of the MUDO/BUDO what we are about.

In peace

Todd Miller
Director
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc. of America

Neil Yamamoto
30th October 2001, 00:05
I just had lunch and came across some very interesting information. You see, I sat down to lunch at a new Korean restaurant and was surprised to see General Choi’s Chicken on the menu. It was amusing to me, you know General Tsao’s chicken and all, I made a wise crack, which the waiter repeated to the chef.

To my surprise, the chef came out and proceeded to inform me as to the true origins of General Tsao’s chicken and several other Asian foods. It turns out it’s really Korean in origin!

The chef informed me that he had studied in several different countries in learning to cook Asian food. Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai and had mastered them all. He thought he was a master chef until one day on vacation, he was in the mountains of Korea and came to a temple/ monastery where he decided to rest. He fell into a conversation with a monk who was delighted to speak with a fellow chef, and they fell to discussing their passion for food and cooking.

The chef offered to cook for the monks, thinking it would be treat for them, however, the monks were very quiet, seemed to not be happy with the meal, and did not finish the food he had prepared. He was surprised and the first monk he had met took him into the kitchen and showed him how the monks were used to eating. Imagine the chef’s surprise when the food was far superior to anything he had ever tasted! He then asked to stay and learn from the monks.

The chef revealed that many so-called Chinese gourmet specialties were really Korean in origin! He pointed to the use of hot peppers as proof, and said Korean foods are known for being the spiciest in Asia, so of course they copied it in other countries. I commented that peppers were common in many countries, but he quickly showed me that all peppers originated in Korea.

General Tsao’s chicken was actually invented by General Choi, who was a famous general who commanded the Korean forces, which served Khublai Khan. General Choi died in the second invasion of Japan, but his cooking secrets survived with some of his troops who survived. Other famous dishes invented by Koreans include Ma-po tofu, Mongolian Beef, ( this did exist as highly salted and black pepper seasoned form, but the Koreans improved it by the addition of red peppers.), Buddhist delight garlic sauce, and spicy twice cooked pork.

I asked if there was any proof and he told me that it was all in performance. Did the food taste good? If so, why do you need historical proof, it matters not. So there you go, There’s no reason this guy would have lied to me is there? I mean the $50 bucks he charged me for lunch seemed reasonable seeing as how I was entertained.
--

OK my little tale of lies has ended. I hope my sarcasm is understood. The difference between historical verification and believing what you want to believe since you like what you do. I really like food, but that doesn’t mean I believe stories like the one you just read. I really like martial arts too, but I don’t buy the claims most people put out there for a second. The Abashiri Seishinkai group has been debated many time, please check thoroughly before you use them as a credible source. While they may practice Daito ryu as they learned at the Daitokan, they sure have a lot to learn about being credible in how they present their own history.

I have no problem with Hapkido as a martial art. I have seen some exceptional performances over the years. And yes, I have seen and trained in both Daito and hapkido. Where I do disagree is the exaggerations, distortions, and some outright lies used to promote the art’s so called history. Do other arts do the same? Sure do, but that doesn’t excuse the act or prove you are right.

Now, Bruce Sims and Stan Pranin do have proof that some Koreans did study Daito ryu, but that doesn’t hold water for what is claimed in this thread. When I will believe what you say is when there is verified documented evidence or sufficient anecdotal evidence.

Sorry, but pictures of two guys standing together doesn’t cut it. I have pictures of myself with many famous martial arts teachers. It doesn’t mean anything except I met them once.

Good research means documenting where you got the information, confirming it with multiple sources, and then rechecking your facts before putting it out there. While Lim may be an outstanding martial artist, you can’t say “prove it didn’t happen this way” and expect any of us to swallow it. Maybe on rec.martial-arts, but not here. In short, don’t make claims you can’t verify.

As for cross training, I have cross trained in several arts to try and understand aikijujutsu and aikido bettter. But that has nothing to do with proof one art is in some way related to the other historically. Don’t confuse the two.

As Nathan said, this thread should end, but I had to get this in just for fun. Besides, I was having a serving of General Tsao’s , er, excuse me, General Choi’s chicken for a snack. And later this week I will be at a friend’s jujutsu dojo to try and better understand my own art.

But that doesn’t mean that General Choi invented chicken, that was Colonel Saunders. Maybe he studied in Korea too.

Nathan, if you want to nuke me, go ahead. My sarcasm is running rampant today.

hkdtodd
30th October 2001, 12:51
I know this is off topic but will any of you be at the Western Regional Tournament of Swordsmanship held in Seattle by Sensei R. McCartney? If so I would enjoy meeting you, Sarcasim and all.

Peace
Todd Miller

Joseph Svinth
30th October 2001, 13:31
If you want to study world-class Korean martial arts, try boxing or judo. Some really good athletes there.

As for Russ, I can't make it, but please give him my regards. That said, if you're serious about wanting to meet a bunch of really sarcastic E-budo posters in person, note that there will be an aiki-jujutsu seminar with Bernie Lau at the Seattle Ju-jutsu School on December 1.

hkdtodd
30th October 2001, 22:19
;)

I will be in Seattle this weekend and unfortunately I will not be able to make for the Aiki seminar Dec. 1st. A little sarcasm is not a problem for me. Just make sure you can take what you dish out. That way we can all stay civilized. I would like to compare Hapkido and Daito Ryu. I have seen some Daito Ryu and it looks and feels close to the original Hapkido taught by Choi, Yong Sool, well maybe not as powerfull but as long as your training hard you have a chance to get there!

In fun :toast:
Todd

Neil Yamamoto
31st October 2001, 00:40
I won't be able to make the tournament, but I may stop by the demo that is taking place that evening if time allows.

Since you are on top of Queen Anne hill, My old hunting ground, and looking for a place to eat, try:

Coronitas, great Mexican-Caribbean influence food.

Hilltop Ale House has great brew and pub food

Queen Anne Cafe for lunch and a good big breakfast.

Orapin has some fantastic Thai offerings, in addition to a fast to go noodle outlet.

Chinoise has pan asian food that is pretty good.

5 Spot has great regional American cooking.

As for taking sarcasm, ask anyone who knows me and my background, or look up old threads, I can more than take it.
:toast:

Tom Douglas
1st November 2001, 15:38
Just to clarify what Bernie Lau teaches: it's his own style of "aiki-jujutsu", developed from his long-term training in Aikikai aikido with his own ideas on tactics and techniques, based on his experience as a police officer. The information below comes from www.wuji.com:

"Bernie Lau

Lau started his training in 1955 in Hawaii and earned his shodan from Aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba. His primary Aikido sensei was Shihan Yukiso Yamamoto and Sado Yoshioka, both students of Koichi Tohei and pillars of the Hawaii Aikikai. Lau sensei also studied on occasions with Tohei sensei, Doshu sensei (the founder's son), and attended classes by Osensei (the founder of Aikido).


With his work in Seattle's law enforcement community Lau sensei needed to research more options and techniques to use while faced with life and death situations encountered on the street. He pursued his studies of the martial arts in Goju Rye Karate and then putting his focus on Aikijujitsu. inviting guest instructors to his dojo such at: Frederick J. Lovret, Soke Don Angier, Wally Jay, and Obata author of Combat Aikijujitsu Lau sensei studied the many facets of Jujitsu and Aikijujitsu. After years of on-the-job research he formulated a system to teach law enforcement officers he named Icho Ryu Aikijujitsu.

Currently Lau sensei is enjoying retired, however he does occasionally travel to his associate clubs to give seminars for police and sheriffs departments.
Lau sensei has a series of Aikijujutsu instructions tapes:

Aikijujutsu Complete I
Aikijujutsu Complete II
Dynamic Aikijujitsu"


Tom Douglas

Walker
1st November 2001, 17:01
For those interested in Bernie Lau look for an in depth history/bio coming soon from Joe Svinth at EJMAS.com.
Also Bernie will be presenting a workshop Dec. 1 also organized by EJMAS.

Nathan Scott
2nd November 2001, 00:38
Hello,

I've been doing a bit of surfing, and noticed that Mr. Hukchu posted the same statements over at aikido journal just prior to posting here:

hapkiyusul and Choi Yiong Sul in korea (http://www.aikidojournal.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=10&t=000086)

In this thread at AJ, he posted an image of an alledged page of Takeda Sokaku's eimeiroku (enrollment book), as it had been reprinted in "Hiden Budo & Bujutsu Magazine", 6/2000.

It sounds like this image was included as part of an article in this issue of Hiden magazine, written by someone from the DR Seishinkai (SAD).

Unfortunately, the original document is very hard to read, as it was hand written, and the cleaned-up version provided underneath this image was cropped out of the scanned photo (which would have been VERY useful to see).

Here's what I can make out:

- the entry was made in Showa 3 (1928).

- the entry appears to say that the listed names participated in an eight day seminar.

- there is a Korean name on there, but I can't figure out what the translation would be.

- the training took place in Asahikawa, Hokkaido.

- the signature says "Takeda dai-sensei", which is a title Sokaku used, and may include a hanko at the bottom (very hard to see).

What little article text was included to the right of the image indicates that it was from Takeda Sokaku's enrollment book, which is a likely conclusion IF this photographed document is real.

Since Sokaku s. was illiterate and did not write his own documents, it is impossible to compare handwriting samples.'

I think everyone would agree that eight days of seminar training would not be sufficient to create a new art from, or, to teach Mr. Choi (founder of Hapkido) or anyone else anything comprehensive.

I suspect that Sokaku s. did not teach much (if any) aiki waza during open seminars, based off what has been written. Those who learned aiki from Sokaku s. were fairly long term direct students that trained with him either privately or in small groups regularly.

In other words, it would be interesting to find that a Korean was in fact a participant in one of Sokaku's seminars, but even if it were true - and that person had taught Mr. Choi or someone else - the material that was likely learned in this eight day seminar does not seem all that significant.

I'd be curious if Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei could confirm such an entry in the eimeiroku...

**

I also went to the "Hapkiyusul" home page listed in Mr. Hukchu's posts. I don't know what all is taught, but the kanji for "aikijujutsu" is included as one of three elements of the art, and the same aikijujutsu kanji is also written across the backs of the Hapkiyusul student uniforms.

I assume the literal translation of Hapkiyusul is "Aikijujutsu". I don't know what this name has to do with "'hapkiyusul' for name of Choi Yiong Sul's technique, because he likes old and origin style of Choi", since Mr. Choi taught what he called Korean Aikido.

I watched the MPEG movies, and didn't see anything that looked like aiki. There were some versions of jujutsu throws, and a few things that are difficult to describe - including a Shioda-type shoulder reverse, but nothing showing Daito ryu jujutsu or aikijujutsu.

Quite honestly, the more I read these threads, look at their web page and watch the videos, I'm beginning to suspect that Hapkiyusul is the new - I mean old - Aikijujutsu of Korea. The only thing missing is a lineage justifying the art's claim and name.

That reminds me, I've got to go check on the "Shimgumdo" (Shinkendo) web page. Hopefully they are still specializing on Zen sword, and not Obata sword.

Respectfully,

kadosu777
2nd November 2001, 05:50
NATHAN : In this thread at AJ, he posted an image of an alledged page of Takeda Sokaku's eimeiroku (enrollment book), as it had been reprinted in "Hiden Budo & Bujutsu Magazine", 6/2000.
It sounds like this image was included as part of an article in this issue of Hiden magazine, written by someone from the DR Seishinkai (SAD).
==> On what ground do you suspect my comment? I am suprising at your dubious.
I said this thread that I'am personal researcher of GM choi and a history of hapkido.
The picture was from HIDDEN. the writer of the article and me worked together for searching a clue of Choi in EIMEIROKU and other sources.

the records(EIMEIROKU, enrollment) is now at Tokyo, Shinbu-kan and Abashiri, Seishin-kai (copy).

he visited Seishin-kai at Abashiri, and he did't find any information of GM choi.
but he found other koreans in the enrollment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NATHAN : Unfortunately, the original document is very hard to read, as it was hand written, and the cleaned-up version provided underneath this image was cropped out of the scanned photo (which would have been VERY useful to see).
==> this is new picture with more information.
http://att.co.kr/~kadosu/enrollment.bmp

this enrollment was written by training members, not by Sokaku.
according to this enrollment, Dakeda sokaku teached directly in the seminar.

£¨1928£®11.2-9£©5 korean + 2 japanese - at akitaya inn in Asahikawa.
£¨1928.12.10-17£©4 korean + 1 japanese - at akitaya inn in Asahikawa.
(1928.12.18-25£©4 korean - at akitaya inn in Asahikawa.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

NATHAN : - the entry was made in Showa 3 (1928).
==> Right!

NATHAN : - the entry appears to say that the listed names participated in an eight day seminar.
==> it's not true. there was 3 times seminar. refer to upper picture.

NATHAN : - there is a Korean name on there, but I can't figure out what the translation would be.
==> you can see clean characters from new picture. till now, nobody have found a information for this korean in the enrollment in korea & japan. trying to pursue them will be a subject of additional research.

NATHAN : - the training took place in Asahikawa, Hokkaido.
==> Right!

NATHAN : - the signature says "Takeda dai-sensei", which is a title Sokaku used, and may include a hanko at the bottom (very hard to see).
==> Right! this enrollment was written by three people of the training member(japanese Sato Gacho and korean Jung Hiong Yok, and one another korea), not by Sokaku.

NATHAN : What little article text was included to the right of the image indicates that it was from Takeda Sokaku's enrollment book, which is a likely conclusion IF this photographed document is real.
==> it's true.

NATHAN : Since Sokaku s. was illiterate and did not write his own documents, it is impossible to compare handwriting samples.
I think everyone would agree that eight days of seminar training would not be sufficient to create a new art from, or, to teach Mr. Choi (founder of Hapkido) or anyone else anything comprehensive.
==> do not confusing about those.
this enrollment was not written by Sokaku who was illiterate but written by training participator.

NATHAN : I suspect that Sokaku s. did not teach much (if any) aiki waza during open seminars, based off what has been written. Those who learned aiki from Sokaku s. were fairly long term direct students that trained with him either privately or in small groups regularly.
==> I don't know what Sokaku taught at their seminar.
and I can't agree to your comment "OPEN SEMINAR".
only 4 ~ 5 people participated in one seminar (if open seminar was held, many people have taken part in) and despite of Sokaku having the principle of teaching that 'foreigner can't learn to Daitoryu', he taught korean student.
at that time(1927), Japan met finacial panic. because the cost of teaching was expensive(entrance was 2 ~ 3 yen), except rich person what anybody learned to datoryu was difficult. my japan friend give expression of a opinion "someone who be close to Sokaku maybe recommand them. it is one and only case of daitoryu seminar for foreigner at Sokaku enrollment"
Nathan's comment about Aiki teaching at that old seminar is only your thought. Nobody don't know and can't allude about his teaching at that seminar. in my thought, It maybe not open seminar but closed seminar.

NATHAN : it would be interesting to find that a Korean was in fact a participant in one of Sokaku's seminars, but even if it were true - and that person had taught Mr. Choi or someone else - the material that was likely learned in this eight day
seminar does not seem all that significant.
==> have ever I said "that person had taught Mr. Choi"? I Never said that.
at this time, I can't any connection clue between Korean participant in seminar and GM choi. instead I think GM choi recommended them to Sokaku for participate in the seminar.

NATHAN : I'd be curious if Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei could confirm such an entry in the eimeiroku...
==> Is the comment of Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei always right? I recommend that you try to confirm it by yourself.

NATHAN : I don't know what this name has to do with "'hapkiyusul' for name of Choi Yiong Sul's technique, because he likes old and origin style of Choi", since Mr. Choi taught what he called Korean Aikido.
==> you are perfectly wrong.
GM choi opened his first Dojang(traning center) at 1948.2.10, and then the name second Dojang(1952) was "HapkiyuKonsul".
and next, "hapkiyusul' was using by GM Choi until 1968, despite of GM Jihanjae using Hapkido by name from 1957. after 1968, GM Choi use 'Korea Hapkido'.(he never used the word "korean aikido", where do you hear or read this word? he dislike aikido)

NATHAN : I watched the MPEG movies, and didn't see anything that looked like aiki. There were some versions of jujutsu throws, and a few things that are difficult to describe - including a Shioda-type shoulder reverse, but nothing showing Daito ryu jujutsu or aikijujutsu.
==> I want to upload more MPG movies, but my teacher do not want to this.
he said "a man Seeing something can see despite of short viewing and will visit for confirmation"

NATHAN : Quite honestly, the more I read these threads, look at their web page and watch the videos, I'm beginning to suspect that Hapkiyusul is the new - I mean old - Aikijujutsu of Korea. The only thing missing is a lineage justifying the art's claim and name.
==> Quite honestly you are dubious.
Hapkiyusul is not new Aikijujutsu of Korea. the name "hapkiyusul", "hapkido", "aikijujitsu" is not important, being only representative of GM Choi's technique.
the important thing is that in korea a few direct students of GM choi are practicing everyday the origin GM Choi's technique with no adding new technique despite of many student having been adding new technique till now- more weapon skill and kicking skill.

Regards,
Hukchu

Nathan Scott
2nd November 2001, 08:37
Thanks for your response. As you probably noticed, the image you attached did not make it through.

The additional translation is helpful though. Apparently what I had read as "eight day seminar" was referring to the three eight day seminars you listed in your last post. So to clarify, according to your translation there were 4-5 Korean's who participated in three-eight day seminars from November to December of 1928. Also, Sokaku apparently sent someone to America on his behalf at one point to offer instruction in response to a request by the presiding American president. It would be interesting to learn more about that.

You asked "On what ground do you suspect my comment?" regarding my observation of the scanned document. It is not that I suspect your document, it is simply that none of us know where the document came from or, for a fact, if it came from one of Takeda Sokaku's enrollment books. All we have is part of an article by someone from the Seishinkai, and your word that your believe it is real. That is assuring, and the document quite possibly is authentic, but until a credible independent third party can confirm it's authenticity it is more appropriate from where we're sitting to refer to the document as being "aledged". That is how research works - no offense intended.


Nathan's comment about Aiki teaching at that old seminar is only your thought. Nobody don't know and can't allude about his teaching at that seminar. in my thought, It maybe not open seminar but closed seminar.

My comment is DEFINITELY my own opinion, which I made fairly clear when I made it. The seminars may have in fact been "closed" as opposed to "open", but I don't think this is really the point.

The point I was trying to make about the seminar subject is that, the only students that learned the deeper levels of DR aiki are the ones that trained directly under Sokaku s. for extended lengths of time, not through short seminars. These students would have logically been considered more serious, and more trustworthy through the continued regular exposure to each other.

Ueshiba s., Horikawa s. and Sagawa s. for example all trained formally under Sokaku s. directly in a dojo. It is not a coincidence that they are also the ones that have the strongest reputations for having learned the higher levels of DR aiki.

My suspician as to what might have been taught during seminars is also based off of the many interviews, books, articles and discussions I've read/participated in, including this one:

"Daito ryu Aikijujutsu: Hiden Mokuroku - Ikkajo", by Kondo Katsuyuki; Aiki News 2000 pg.11:

"Regarding the aforementioned 'secretiveness' inherent in Daito-ryu, it is said that Sokaku Takeda never taught the same technique twice."

"When I [Kondo Katsuyuki] myself was learning from Tokimune [Takeda], he often warned me, 'if you teach the same technique twice, the second time your students will figure out how to reverse it and defeat you with it. For that reason, teach something different the second time.'"

"He [Tokimune] also explained by saying, 'if you teach people true techniques and the next day they leave th school, then all of the secret and oral teachings of Daito-ryu will flow outside of the school and be known to the general public'. He also said, 'out of a thousand pupils, teach the true techniques only to one or two. Make absolutely sure of those you choose, and to them alone teach what is real. There is no need to teach the rest'."

I believe the above quotes convey a pretty good idea what might have been taught - jujutsu. Since aiki is pretty much the "secret" aspect of DR, it pretty much narrows down the scope of instruction to jujutsu techniques, though Sokaku very well may have demonstrated some aiki techniques.

Sokaku and Tokimune's concern about the secrets (aiki primarily) of DR flowing outside the art to others seems to have been a valid concern.

Of course we don't know for a fact what was taught in this case, but I thought I would offer a bit of perspective for others to consider anyway.


I can't any connection clue between Korean participant in seminar and GM choi. instead I think GM choi recommended them to Sokaku for participate in the seminar.

You say in the first sentance that you do not have any clues to connect Mr. Choi to the seminar participants, but then in the second sentance say that you think Mr. Choi sent them to study. These two sentances contradict themselves. What evidence did you find to make such a guess? Why wouldn't Mr. Choi just go himself, if he was living in Hokkaido - especially if it was supposedly important enough to base his art of off?


Is the comment of Mr. Pranin or Kondo sensei always right? I recommend that you try to confirm it by yourself.

Yeah, pretty much. My experience has been that Mr. Pranin and Kondo sensei are the most credible sources of Daito ryu research I've found anywhere - in English or Japanese - and have yet to discover evidence that either of them have mis-spoken or published flawed research to date.

However, I do and will continue to confirm such research myself as opportunity presents itself, but in the meantime their work is a great foundation to work from.


you are perfectly wrong. (snip)

he never used the word "korean aikido", where do you hear or read this word? he dislike aikido

How could I be perfectly wrong??

Mr. Choi may not have specifically translated his art as "Korean Aikido", but Hapkido translates directly in Japanese as Aikido, and it is a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art. These are facts, and you can see the kanji for "Aikido" on many Hapkido Dojang everywhere - in America at least. Instructors of Hapkido often say that it is "similar to aikido, but with kicks and punches".

If he didn't like aikido, why did he change the name of his art to "hapkido"? Names do matter when referring to an art, and those that found new arts tend to put quite a bit of thought into the name they choose. Hapkido may look different than aikido, but that does not change the fact that the hapkido translates as (Korean) aikido.


I want to upload more MPG movies, but my teacher do not want to this. He said "a man Seeing something can see despite of short viewing and will visit for confirmation"

That is a convenient way out.

I guess I just can't "see it". Too bad for me. I'm sure its an enjoyable art to study regardless of any relation or lack there of to DR or aikido.


Quite honestly you are dubious.

I am?

du·bi·ous


1 : giving rise to uncertainty: as
a : of doubtful promise or outcome <a dubious plan>
b : questionable or suspect as to true nature or quality <the practice is of dubious legality> <the dubious honor of being the world's biggest polluter>

Thanks for letting me know. I'll work on being less dubious.


Hapkiyusul is not new Aikijujutsu of Korea. the name "hapkiyusul", "hapkido", "aikijujitsu" is not important, being only representative of GM Choi's technique.

Hapkiyusul IS the (relatively) new aikijujusu of Korea by definition. It could be that arts such as this are represented differently in Korea - I wouldn't know as I haven't had the chance to go there yet. But outside of Korea arts such as Tae Kwon Do used to be advertised as "Korean Karate", back when Karate was the popular thing to study.

Right now aikijujutsu is one of the more popular arts to study, as I'm sure you must realize. So when one more person posts unsubstantiated claims and opinions without anything solid to back them up, it starts to sound alot like marketing and propaganda.

It's not that any of us have anything against arts like Hapkiyusul, it is just that it is difficult to have an intelligent discussion about subjects like lineage and history without having more solid evidence to back up such claims.

Some of the more reputable arts I know that also have unfounded historical claims that are passed down in their art have chosen to not aggressively advertise them, since they have not found adequate evidence yet to support the claims. This might be a good way to go while your continuing your research and collecting new evidence.

BTW, issues like physical technique and effectiveness have little to nothing to do with the issues of lineage and/or other historical matters. That is a different discussion altogether.

Hope we understand each other a little better,

kadosu777
5th November 2001, 03:33
Nathan : until a credible independent third party can confirm it's authenticity it is more appropriate from where we're sitting to refer to the document as being "aledged". That is how research works - no offense intended.
==>
I respect your a scholarly attitude. but Martial art have a limit about 'proof' in spect of history and technique.
it is not scholarship. it's only martial art. nobody prove a martial art by document.
any document maybe falsified. we can easily find old document fabricator in a faked antique business.
please do not have a tenacity of purpose about document.
if we can't find perpect proof of something, we can try to find evidence, testimony.
it'll be helpful for stepping up to a historical fact.
you alway said that a testimony of korean and others was not able to help anything about GM choi's history.
in your scholarly limit, you can't find anything about GM choi, Hapkido, Hapkiyusul....,

Nathan : I believe the above quotes convey a pretty good idea what might have been taught - jujutsu. Since aiki is pretty much the "secret" aspect of DR, it pretty much narrows down the scope of instruction to jujutsu techniques, though Sokaku very well may have demonstrated some aiki techniques.
Sokaku and Tokimune's concern about the secrets (aiki primarily) of DR flowing outside the art to others seems to have been a valid concern.
==> I knew that Aiki is the "secret" aspect of DR, it is impossible to immitation. it takes long time for mastering.
who did't know that? who did't read that book? the DR book you said is very commonplace in DR books.
the book you said is verbal interviews with old DR teacher, too. it's verbal, which is your dislike.

logically I want to agree with your comment, 'korean of old seminar may not study Aiki'.
But according to your scholarly attitude, we can't find any document of Sokaku teaching a technique at that seminar.
I can't find any document of your comment 'korean of old seminar may not study Aiki'.
it's limit of documetation.

I think we must listen carefully to many aspect which is document, verbal evidence, witness, family lineage, a similarity of technique and so on..., for approaching a fact.


Nathan : You say in the first sentance that you do not have any clues to connect Mr. Choi to the seminar participants, but then in the second sentance say that you think Mr. Choi sent them to study. These two sentances contradict themselves.
==> I have never found any proof, testimony, evidence about connection between GM choi and other korean in seminar.
it'll be research part of Future.
saying that Mr. Choi sent them to Sokaku is only my hypothesis as if you think 'korean of old seminar may not study Aiki'.

What evidence did you find to make such a guess? Why wouldn't Mr. Choi just go himself, if he was living in Hokkaido - especially if it was supposedly important enough to base his art of off?
==> according to GM choi's testimony I found in korea and others, He met Sokaku at 1913, visited hokkaido with sokaku, have ever met morihei at 1915. GM choi said he alway was in attendance upon Sokaku like father during 30 years (1913? ~ 1943).
at that time(1928), his position in DR maybe not a seminar student for having to describing his name in enrollment and GM choi was illiteracy like Sokaku


Nathan : Mr. Choi may not have specifically translated his art as "Korean Aikido", but Hapkido translates directly in Japanese as Aikido, and it is a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art. These are facts, and you can see the kanji for "Aikido" on many Hapkido Dojang everywhere - in America at least. Instructors of Hapkido often say that it is "similar to aikido, but with kicks and punches".
==>
before upploding my message in BB, I studied and practiced Daitoryu, Aikido, Hapkido. firstly, you must study about Hapkido. How many do you know about hapkido? have you ever learned that? How long? do you know about hapkido's history?

example, 'KI(japan)', 'chi(chinese)', 'Gi(korean)' is same chinese character.

Hapkido is different from Aikido. at now, it is not a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art.
if you think that Hapkido is a Korean variant on a Japanese martial art, where is from in japan martial art?
in korea, Hapkido and Aikido is perfectly different. Aikido federation is there separately.
< 3 major hapkido federation in korea>
1. KHF - korea hapkido federation => jijutsu style + kicking + falling down
2. IAF - International Aikido federation => aikido style + kicking + falling down
3. Kidohwoi(kooksul) => traditional martial art + jijutsu style + kicking + falling down
some other pure aikido dojo...(shorin branch...,)

Hapkido federation found that aikido use same character for naming at 1968. at that time, Kido(gido) federation started with a new name.

Nathan : If he didn't like aikido, why did he change the name of his art to "hapkido"? Names do matter when referring to an art, and those that found new arts tend to put quite a bit of thought into the name they choose. Hapkido may look different than aikido, but that does not change the fact that the hapkido translates as (Korean) aikido.
==> the reason why he did't change the name of his art to "hapkido" was that he said only "it's wayara" for his life.
he did not concern about NAME of his skill, alway interesting in teaching it. GM JiHanJae use firstly the name of 'hapkido' at 1957.4. GM choi's other student use the name of 'hapkido' from 1968 because of Hapkido's popular appeal.
nobody might think that a foreigner said 'two martial art are related because of same chinese character of name'.
for example, 'Sumo' in japan translates as 'sangbak' in korea. and Is 'sumo' variant on a korea martial art?
Hapkido and Aikido use same chinese characters(it's not japan character!).
about this chinese characters, korea translates Hapkido, Japan translate Akido.
they are different martial art.

Nathan : Hapkiyusul IS the (relatively) new aikijujusu of Korea by definition. It could be that arts such as this are represented differently in Korea - I wouldn't know as I haven't had the chance to go there yet. But outside of Korea arts such as Tae Kwon Do used to be advertised as "Korean Karate", back when Karate was the popular thing to study.
Right now aikijujutsu is one of the more popular arts to study, as I'm sure you must realize. So when one more person posts unsubstantiated claims and opinions without anything solid to back them up, it starts to sound alot like marketing and propaganda.
==> Hapkiyusul is not new aikijujitsu.
the name of 'hapkiyusul' was using at 1954? ~ 1968.
the name of 'hapkido' is using from 1957 to till now.(poplular)
GM Kim yun Sang is of use 'hapkiyusul' from 1974 to till now for honor of Choi's old technique although GM choi use the name of hapkido about his technique from 1968.

today hapkido show many joint lock, kicking and falling down.
But GM Choi's original technique is different from today hapkido.
In korea, hapkiyusul(tranlated aikijujutsu in japanese) is not popular arts. only two dojo exist and a few people practice it in kumsan and taejon where is not big city.
my effort is not for marketing. I want to annouce GM choi and his technique.
In internet, I found GM choi was described at nomal martial art man or only small old people. it's not true.
GM choi had many milacle techniques with Aiki. because of his death, I can't introduce his skill openly.
instead of him, GM Kim yun Sang show GM choi's original technique.

I'm a network security expert, do not say about me 'marketing for martial art'or 'advertizing of...'.
through me, I believe many martial artist in BB found a new clue about GM choi, DR history or some information about hapkido.
I expect your report for yourself not by other book's story.

Nathan : BTW, issues like physical technique and effectiveness have little to nothing to do with the issues of lineage and/or other historical matters. That is a different discussion altogether.
==> it is the difference of you and me.^^
in my thought, martial art expert who have experienced a physical technique and effectiveness can help for this BB in spite of being not perpect proof.
But, I respect your view point of persuiting complete.

I Hope we understand each other a little better, too.

I'm sorry for bad writing. nobody use english at my place. (do you know korean language? please understand my bad english writing. ^^)

thank for reading

Hukchu

hkdtodd
6th November 2001, 19:44
The term Hapkido is how most people recognize what Choi, Yong Sool taught even though the full name of Choi, Yong Sool's art was and still is
Dai Dong Ryu Hapki Yu Sool
Translated = Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. It is only my opinion but maybe what Choi taught was closer to what Sokaku Takeda taught. It is possible even if this does not meet with majority preferance and even written proof.

Just some things to think about.

Todd

Nathan Scott
6th November 2001, 20:23
Mr. Hukchu,

I'm afraid we could talk in circles like this forever. I could write another long post defending what I was trying to say in the previous ones, but I don't think it would help. Your responses are emotional and defensive, and we are do seem to be understanding the points the other is making.

I posted to this thread again in hopes of clarifying what the information on the Hiden magazine image said - and should have just left it at that.

According to the first hand accounts of students and the extensive records (shareiroku and emeiroku) kept by Sokaku, we can safely assume that Mr. Choi did not receive a "teaching" license or other form of permission from Sokaku, and as such, it is inappropriate for him or his successors to use the Daito ryu name - though there is nothing keeping them from claiming they teach aikijujutsu, since this is a broad term that nobody owns.

There are other groups that make simliar claims as Hapkido - such as the "Saigo-ha" group. They also do not have any supporting documents and lack significant technical similarities.

Isn't there any film or photos of Mr. Choi performing his Daito ryu aikijujutsu? Considering Mr. Choi's age, I would think there would be alot of photos, and some amount of film documenting his art.

Regards,

Arman
6th November 2001, 22:28
Nathan,

I would suggest just letting it go. If you follow Hukchu and Todd's posts, they do not offer anything but conjecture and unsubstantiated claims. If you try and rebut their claims with the known evidence (enrollment records, multiple source verification, etc), they merely discount the evidence as just as unsubstantiated as their own (or lack thereof).

This is a common method of argument by those with no evidence to support an argument. Attack the evidence of your opponents as just as groundless, leaving everything open to speculation and opinion. It is nothing other than a reductio ad absurdum, leaving everything relative.

How hard is it to claim your opponent's argument is based on forgery and lies, or impossible to prove? It is very easy! It doesn't matter if the claim is true or not. The point is to avoid the evidence, discount the evidence, deny the strength of the evidence, so that one never has to answer the evidence. Thus, an opinion without any evidence becomes just as valuable as an opinion with evidence. It is what Plato would have called, sophistry.

Don't be surprised if there is a reply to my post once again making the exact same type of arguments I just described.

I would suggest you would have a more productive time banging your head against a brick wall.

:)
Cheers,
Arman Partamian
Daito-ryu Study Group
Maryland

Brently Keen
6th November 2001, 22:51
"It is only my opinion, but maybe what Choi taught was closer to what Sokaku Takeda taught. It is possible even if this does not meet with majority preferance and even written proof."

You're certainly entitled to your opinion Todd, but what is it based on? Imagination or wishful thinking?

You're making some really huge assumptions based on misinformation, tenuous "maybe's" and very unlikely and remote possibilities. That's just to say that Choi studied for any length of time with Takeda, but now your opinion goes even further to say (against all available evidence) that what Choi taught was closer to what Sokaku Takeda taught? Closer than what or who? How can you even presume to know what Sokaku Takeda taught, much less compare it to what Choi taught, isn't that just a bit presumptuous?

"Just some things to think about."

This is really a no-brainer folks. It's not a question of what is the majority or minority preference, nor is it a question of what might have been possible, rather it is about the accuracy and truth of the technical and historical claims that are being put forth. Written proof (documentary evidence) is only a part of the whole picture, but in the case of Daito-ryu the written records are rather extensive and complete. Choi's name or supposed name are conspicuously absent. The burden of proof is upon the successors of Choi and their students.

To Hukchu's credit at least he's attempting to do some research into the matter. Further research may yet reveal more information about the truth of Choi's influences, particularly if it is conducted with journalistic integrity and according to established standards. To start, information received needs to be checked and cross-checked, sources ought to be confirmed for credibility and rated for their reliability.

With all due respect, at this point in time, there's still not any compelling evidence to support either Choi's stories, his students claims, or Todd's opinion. And in light of what we do know, those stories, claims, and opinions are misrepresenting themselves. So at this point, the sources for those have yet to gain any credibility with the rest of us.

Brently Keen

hkdtodd
6th November 2001, 23:07
I do not consider DaitoRyu or its practioners my opponents. It is a great Mudo, in fact one of the best in my opinion. The only thing we are trying to say is that what Choi taught was real Aiki/Hapki. There are a few that still teach what Choi taught today. It seems you guys would rather argue about documents and liniage than what is similar between Hapkido and Daito Ryu. I just like the training and philosophy of what original Hapkido is about and personally could care less where it came from. I will close in saying again, It did not bennifit Choi to claim he had Mastered Daito Ryu or that Takeda Sokaku was like a father to him but this is what Choi claimed. Choi was an old time Martial Artist, he did not care about marketing. He just loved what he did and called it Dai Dong Ryu Hapki Yu Sool/ Hapkido.

Todd Miller

kimjohan
7th November 2001, 11:05
Todd, I'm sure we all understand what you're trying to say, but the point is as Mr. Keen stated:


You're making some really huge assumptions based on misinformation, tenuous "maybe's" and very unlikely and remote possibilities.

You claim that:

what Choi taught was real Aiki/Hapki.

So, that is your opinion, but if you want to make such a claim publicly you should support it with prove, and not just heresay.

All recognized Daito-ryu teachers, eg. Kondo sensei etc., have abolutely no problem supporting their claims with proves.
Why is it so difficult for you to bring forward prove to support your claims?
Well we can speculate about that, but the fact is that you have not described any proof to us at all.
Therefore you should refrain from making such claims publicly. That's common sense :)

- Kim Johansen.

hkdtodd
7th November 2001, 11:55
If I asked the question Proove to me that you practice real Aiki, how would you answer in writing? My skills are better shown on the training hall floor. My teacher has always said there are those that talk and those that do. As I said before GM Lim, Hyun Soo will be coming over for a few seminars next year. If any of you are interested in the true Hapkido you will be welcome to join us and you might be surprized at what you find!!!! :toast:

In peace
Todd Miller

kimjohan
7th November 2001, 12:04
Todd, you wrote:

If I asked the question Proove to me that you practice real Aiki, how would you answer in writing?

I would describe my linage to you (who my teacher was etc.), show you scans of my licences, scans of pictures and electronic videoclips that would show you excactly what I was talking about.

you wrote:

My teacher has always said there are those that talk and those that do.

I agree with your teacher.

Enjoy your seminar :)

- Kim Johansen.

Brently Keen
7th November 2001, 15:47
You cannot prove in writing that someone practices "real aiki". You can however make a case (based on evidence) that someone has studied it. I have no problem with whatever it is you practice Hapkido, Hapki yusul or what ever, I do have a problem with making claims that cannot be substantiated. So I'm in partial agreement with your teacher in that I agree the proof is in doing - but not just doing anything - or even in doing something that works effectively - the proof is in what exactly are you doing when you're doing it?

We don't agree about what it is that Hapki-do/yu sul practitioners are doing.

I'm sure you all do great Hapkido or yu sul. The question is not about you or your teachers skills. The question is what exactly are you skilled at doing? Hapki or aiki?

Frankly I'm not all that interested in any of Choi's arts. I am interested in aiki, which is why I do Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. You do hapki - I do aiki. They might use the same characters, but they're not the same thing. If you think so, then that only indicates that you do not really understand what Daito-ryu aiki is. This has been my perspective regarding Aikido too - which does have a legitimate provable link to Sokaku Takeda and Daito-ryu, but is none-the-less very different from Daito-ryu aiki/aikijujutsu.

Respectfully,

Brently Keen

Dan Harden
8th November 2001, 00:02
Armon

Excellent points. I am always happy when Brently or Nathan get their panties in a bunch. They do such a good job of refuting the absurd with unemotional, factual, response. It is even more enjoyable when the ensuing battle of wits is answered with an empty gun. It’s always much later in the game when the respondents realize their shooting with blanks. Yet there is our sweet Nathan and Brently, with nary a feather rumpled, pluggin away with factual repartee. We need these ever-vigilant people to get the truth out there and be willing to continually refute the nonsense. Nathan continually reminds me to be nice and be willing to repeat.
I gave up twenty or thirty repetitive posts back-so much for me.

Dan

O'Neill
27th November 2002, 16:46
Over on the Aikido jourenal boards, Mr. Pranin has validated the claims of a Korean group that studied daito ryu under Matsuda sensei!
This is a very big deal for Jang, In Mok whose claims have been doubted for some time. Kondo sensei looked at the documentation and said that it is authentic.

By the way, Jang, In Mok does not teach hapkido, so this isn't in anyway connected to the claims of Yong Sul Choi of hapkido fame.

Erin O'Neill

Cady Goldfield
27th November 2002, 17:28
I saw Stanley Pranin's post, too. No doubt some hapkido exponents will try to jump on the bandwagon. I've noticed that on some hapkido websites they put Yong Sul Choi and In Mok Jang in the same sentence, as though to make a connection between them and an implied influence of Daito ryu on hapkido on the part of Jang.

BTW, Stanley also noted that he's a bit "thin on details" at the moment.

DaveB
27th November 2002, 19:31
I have seen a video interview of In Mok Jang, oh about 10-12 years ago. When asked if he knew Choi, In Mok Jang replied in Korean and it was translated in English, that he had heard of him in Japan but did not know him.


Dave Boylan

Nathan Scott
2nd December 2002, 00:01
Look, I would not make too much of this. Korean artists have been dying to validate their studies through associations with DR and other popular Japanese arts for many years now. It is really an irrelevant search, IMO.

To my way of thinking, it is not as important who met or attended seminars with someone as what their art has *historically* (not added in later to justify the claims) to demonstrate any technical influence. We don't know what type of methods were taught to who, for how long, or to what level they learned them. It is all guesswork, which is what makes it irrelevant. The methods share some general shapes in some cases, but that is about it. The only reason to pursue this frantic desire to create connections would be for arts like Hapkido to justify using and in some cases misusing the names or arts like Daito ryu in their marketing. Why not just do what you do and continue to develop these arts internally?

In addition to contact with Matsuda, there have been members from the Seishinkai group that have gone more recently to teach Korean "aikijujutsu" groups. So what? Mas Oyama studied under Yoshida Kotaro at the Daitokan, and used some of the methods in the goshinjutsu forms of Kyokushinkai Karate. But mention of the source of this influence is rarely mentioned if at all. The Kyokushinkai stands strongly on it's own merits.

If somebody digs up some old film or photos, then I'd be interested in seeing them. But what is being practiced as Korean Aikido and Aikijujutsu now does not show much relationship technically to DR.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
22nd July 2003, 02:43
At the risk of reviving further pointless debate about this subject, I'd like to paste a quote here from the Daito ryu instructor in question (who was being credited with verifying that Hapkido/Hapkiyusul is derived from Daito ryu) who posted on the Aikido Journal forum, under the sub-forum "Daito-ryu - History", in the thread named "Daitokai (Seishinkai?) Shihan confirms that Choi's student is doing Orthodox DR?" in July, 2003:


What I have been saying is

1)There are no evidence of relation between Choi Young-sul and Takeda Sokaku.

2)Generally, HKD stemed from DR techs and has developed on their own way.

3)GM Kim Youn-sang's skill is authentic (It can be reliable for Korean students). No need to rely on Takeda Sokaku's myth.

Why must I help them who claim ridicurous. Actually this topic name (it's CRASY!!,isn't it?) is making me strongly disgusted. Why do some strange mails come to my job adress, it is against public rule!

I hate this vicious circle of Korean issue. 3 years ago, a person helpfully adviced me I had better not go Korean MA dojo any more, they (not only I visited) will make it up other myth and cause troblesome on me. After then I never been to Korea.

It's better of me giving no more coments on. And hope it has depleted.

This was posted by Fukuoka Masami, an ex-student of the Daito ryu Daitokan dojo. Mr. Fukuoka was the one that posted the controversial article in Hiden magazine debated earlier in this thread.

Regards,

glad2bhere
22nd July 2003, 16:49
When I was a child I enjoyed merry-go-rounds. However, as an adult I find them a bit tedious unless I am taking my grandkids for a ride.

The only people who seem hellbent on proving a connection between Hapkido arts and DRAJJ are those folks who have a vested interest organizationally. If such a connection WERE documented I don't think you would see the Korean contingents lining up to subsume their efforts under DRAJJ. I don't know that the Japanese organizations would be real excited to admit Korean practitioners under any guise.

In the Hapkido arts names like "Choi, Yong Sul" and "Ji, Han Jae" have become mantras around which lesser informed individuals rally. I have continually asked for futher and deeper study and investigation and been advised to "bugger-off". The people who are advocating for the material being discussed here are not interested in actually delving into Korean martial science or tradition. It is, quite honestly, a matter that people have a particular belief system that they have decided to champion and facts and information actually have very little to do with it.

If anyone ever decides to get off the "Choi-Takeda" Mental Masturbation Railroad there are a variety of alter directions to consider.

There are four major lines of Chinese traditions in Korea all of which have Chin Na and Weapons aspects and all of which contributed to the development of the Hapkido arts before during and after the Japanese Occupation.

There are grappling aspects to Taek Kyon which are rarely discussed and have been almost entirely lost. One single venue for this material is a recent advertisement for a pricely set of photos by the last recognized authority on Taek Kyon which included this grappling material. The two books are about $200 a pop or $400 for the pair, but this is the sort of resources one will need to fall back on if studies are to progress.

There is the MU YEI TOBO TONG JI which is probably one of the best know sources of Korean Martial Science but also one of the rarely investigated resources when it comes to discussions like this.

Finally, there are the oral traditions of the current Hapkido arts leadership which, as their time on Earth draws to a close more and more truthes about the genesis of various styles is coming to light. Few people really care to investigate this material. I suppose they have simply grown comfortable in their myths. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

txhapkido
26th July 2003, 01:16
Originally posted by Brently Keen: You cannot prove in writing that someone practices "real aiki". <snip> ...the proof is in what exactly are you doing when you're doing it?

Mr. Keen, what exactly is your definition of "Aiki?"


The question is what exactly are you skilled at doing? Hapki or aiki?

And the difference is? Notice that the word "ki" is present in both.


We don't agree about what it is that Hapki-do/yu sul practitioners are doing.

Here's some of what I do when doing Hapkido: centering, grounding, relaxation, deflection, evading, balance breaks, intent, small circles, angles, harmony, etc., etc.....many of the same concepts, principles common to both arts.


I am interested in aiki, which is why I do Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

I am also interested in DR which is why I purchased all your videotapes of Seigo Okamoto's seminars, another one of Okamoto, and two of Katsuyuki Kondo. I also played with one of Okamoto's students for an hour or so. I even considered going to Japan to study with Okamoto but settled in Hawaii instead (wife had input). So if you ever come here or have a seminar here, let me know.

I personally don't care about any discussion on the DR connection with Hapkido cause no one was there with a videotape to document any connection. I just train; Hapkido suits my personality. It is a fine art and very effective and my teacher spent 51 months in Vietnam proving it's effectiveness. It worked for me in seconds when attacked by a psychotic nut.

I have no problem with people who want to train in the traditional way and continue that "exact" art. Hapkido is an eclectic art and can't claim any link to any one person who sat under a tree for years and "came up with it." As one Hapkido master told me, "if you see a technique from another art that you like, that's now Hapkido!"

So I quess I'm interested in exactly what Aiki is in DR so I can make a comparison. Hope I'm clear; I just woke up!

Nathan Scott
26th July 2003, 02:18
Mr. Sexton,

Please search the "aiki" threads in this forum for Brently's views on DR aiki. Unless new evidence is going to be introduced, I'd rather not make this thread any longer than it already is with debates that have already taken place elsewhere.

Thanks,

newtongj
28th November 2003, 08:09
This is an old thread and this is my first post to e-budo, but here goes. Back in the late eighties and early nineties, I studied Hapkido from a Korean master who was a student of Han Jae Ji and after five years I achieved a hard earned Shodan. What I learned was heavily influenced philosophically and technically by Japanese budo. I was taught a blend of basic Shotokan blocks and punches, Korean kicking, Judo, and joint manipulations and throws. The throws utilized circular motion, non-resistance, and the water principal. These techiques are very similar to aikido an it is my understanding that the throws and the joint locks came from Yong Sul Choi's original art.

Nidan would learn kendo basics and would practice throwing and joint locking techniques in seiza. We also practiced Ki development through some yoga like exercises called Ton Jon Ho Hup. My opinion is that I was studying quality martial arts, despite the unclear lineage, and I am glad for the experience.

At that time period, despite the obvious Japanese influences on Hapkido, the official line from the Korean masters was that Yong Sul Choi practiced royal Korean arts passed down from monks, and went to the hills to practice until the Japanese left Korea. None of the masters wanted to talk about Choi. My curiosity became piqued when I was told that the Hapkido eagle that was used to represent most schools and associations was the eagle indigenous to the island of Hakkaido. Later, I came across information that Choi had been a displaced person in Japan and became a servant to Sakaku Takeda and that is where he had learned his martial art.

I also remember back in the late eighties seeing a picture of Sakaku Takeda demonstrating atemi waza in a Black Belt magazine article about the origins of Hakko ryu jujitsu. What made this picture stand out in my mind was that sitting amongst the students sitting in seiza and wearing hakama was a chap with the visage of Yong Sul Choi. That hang-dog expression and those pointy ears were unmistakeable.

I am not trying to say that Choi was a favored student of Sakaku Takeda. What I do want to point out is that until the last decade give or take a year, Daito ryu or aiki-jutsu were not well known terms save for martial arts history buffs like myself. After WWII Choi was a pig farmer who was discovered using unusual self-defense techniques in a brawl over left over hopps from a brewery. He identified the techniques he was using then as Daito ryu. With all the anti-Japanese sentiments in Korea at that time, he could have just as easily concocted a story about mountain monks.

Was Choi a student of Sakaku Takeda? By Choi's admission he was a servant to Sakaku Takeda. Did Choi learn Daito Ryu? Probably indirectly and imperfectly. Did Choi have legitimate teaching credentials? Probably not. So why is the Daito ryu community so set on denying Choi? Legitimacy is the problem. Choi learned somewhere from someone elements of an unusual jujitsu art that he claimed was Daito Ryu. This is similar to the bastard son or daughter no one wants to claim.

Last, I am going to make a speculation that has no basis in fact other than supposition. But it may explain why the Korean masters didn't use to want to claim Choi and why Sakaku Takeda's descendants don't want to claim Choi either. It may also explain Choi's story of supposedly being adopted by Sakaku Takeda.

Choi claimed to have been kidnapped as a child by a Japanese couple and taken out of the country by them. He also said they abandoned him at a monastary, because he cried too much. From there he was taken in by Sakaku Takeda. This is pure speculation, but having been a police officer for some eighteen years, and knowing how much the Japanese looked down on the Koreans at that point in history, it sounds to me like Choi had been kidnapped for child prostitution. I am not trying to cast a cloud on Sakaku Takeda, but child prostitution was not a unknown thing in Japanese culture and this could possibly explain Choi's relationship to Sakaku Takeda and why no one wants to admit to it.

Greg J. Newton

glad2bhere
28th November 2003, 12:52
Dear Greg:

Suppose for a single instant that everything you said is true.

What exactly does this mean for the Hapkido community?

Will all of the people practicing the Choi lineage of Hapkido arts now pay deference to the DRAJJ people? Will all practitioners subsequently need to go to Japan to put the finishing touches on the more basic material that they learned at the hands of a Korean instructor?

The fact is, Greg, people who get into these debates want to have it both ways. On the one hand they want the validation of being related to an established MA tradition, even if it is founded in another culture. On the other hand they want the independence to keep authority and monies in their own hands. You simply can't have it both ways. Neo-Confucian thought says that one respects their teacher and elders. If a connection is made through Choi to DRAJJ then, by the injunctions of the Koreans' own culture, deference is owed to the Japanese art and hierarchy. If there is no connection then the Korean art must stand on its own for better or worse. The Koreans have their own culture. I guess I need to know why you do not trust in that. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Nathan Scott
1st December 2003, 22:32
Mr. Newton,

Some of us here have spent massive amounts of time reading interviews from and articles about Daito ryu and Aikido historical figures. Not all of the information is in accord, but some of it is. I think if you were to do the same research, you would see how clearly impossible it was that a Korean national was a serious/long time student OR Sokaku's house-boy. It would take far too much time to try to post all the factors why this is.

Daito ryu and Aikijujutsu have only become really popular in the West in the last 10-15 years. This is true. However, in Japan Sokaku Takeda and Jigoro Kano have been famous as the two famous jujutsu exponents from the Meiji/early 20th century. Those in SE Asia (including Korea), or anyone searching Japanese language texts about this period would learn of this. Thus, you can't look at trends in the West and compare them to what is known in SE Asia. For example, there are quite a few famous sword masters in Japanese history that are rarely mentioned or written about in the West to date. I'm sure this will change eventually, but this oversight does not mean that such kengo have not been legends for many years.

To me, the most compelling factor is the fact that Choi/KMA are claiming roots in a Japanese art. We all know that everything was invented by the Koreans, so it is interesting to see deference towards Japanese origins - famous or otherwise. This seems to be uncharacteristic.

BTW, which picture are you referring to of Sokaku Takeda and Choi?

Regards,

newtongj
1st December 2003, 23:53
Nate,

You remind me of the time I was talking to a high school kid in a pizza joint. In the course of the conversation he'd asked me about my martial arts experience and I said yes, I used to teach at a college club. A man thrust himself into our conversation and demanded to know what I had taught. I politely replied, "Hapkido, but that has been some years back."

He then bowed up his chest and said, "I study Shotokan."

I don't know if he expected me to fall in the floor in terror or if he expected me to challenge him so he could mop up the place with me. I politely said, "That's nice," and continued my conversation with the high school student.

I do think it is rather silly for western practitioners of oriental martial arts to become so xenophobic that they adopt the prejudices of that culture. Especially being disparaging of other cultures and traditions. But, bullys will always be bullys, whether they wear funny pajamas or not.

Nate, I humbly beg your forgiveness for daring to enter your aikijutsu domain with my meaningless meanderings. I bid you adieu, never more to return, sweet prince.

Sincerely,

Greg J. Newton

Nathan Scott
2nd December 2003, 00:28
Mr. Newton,

I don't know what part(s) of my post got you so pissed off, but I don't appreciate your condescending attitude. I replied to you in the spirit of exchanging views, not in shutting you down or slighting Korea. I also don't recall mentioning any of the arts that I study in reference to my post. The fact is, I've heard nothing but good things about Hapkido from a practical standpoint. But that isn't the subject.

Korean arts and their Korean exponents typically DO claim origins in Korea, whether it is historically true or not. This is not simply my opinion, and I am not by any means xenophobic. This characteristic of Korean nationals is so common that there are running jokes about Korean's claiming to have invented this and that, and funny responses that some of us usually offer in return. On the other hand, I've met many Korean nationals that I've liked and respected very much (one of which was a student of mine), martial arts and otherwise, but that does not change this cultural tendency by many.

The only thing I object to in this forum is people posting unsupported claims here with agendas. If you want to exchange opinions and information, fine. If you just want to spread misinformation, do it elsewhere.

Your welcome to post here, and I apologize if something I said in my last post came off rude, as that was not my intention. But I won't tollerate unwarranted BS from guests of this forum.

Regards,

Nathan Scott
20th December 2005, 02:26
Apparently there are some Hapkido schools now using the name "Daedong-ryu Hapkiyoosool" (Korean translation of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu) now to teach the Hapkido of Choi. The main one in America seems to be located in Florida:

http://www.hapkiyoosool.com

If Choi supposedly did not use the name Daedong-ryu, but rather Hapkido, then how do we get to Korean Daito-ryu? Who in Daito-ryu Japan licensed the formation of Daedong-ryu in Korea? Names like Aikido, Jujutsu and Judo are general names that are hard to protect, but isn't there some ethical considerations about using a specific ryu name (with specific references on webpages to the parent art in Japan), even if it IS translated into another language (though using identical characters)?

A quick look through another hapkiyusul.com page shows a Daito-ryu study group under Kondo Sensei training with a hapkiyusul yongsulkwon group:

http://www.hapkiyusul.com/eng/img/05.jpg

Maybe hapkiyoosool will become aikijujutsu after all? :)

Just thought I'd post this info in case anyone is interested.

Regards,

glad2bhere
20th December 2005, 05:20
Well, Nathan, at least in this particular case I can speak with some measure of authority as I was accepted into this kwan a year ago September, 2004.

The YONG SUL KWAN is led by Kim, Yun Sang who is currently the "keeper of the tradition" (Doju) of the Choi tradition as Kim was taught during his training period with Choi. To the best of my knowlege Kim does not identify his art as Daito-ryu, but does use the term "hapkiyusool". To the best of my knowlege Choi Yong Sul never used the term Daito-ryu, but the report has been attributed to him and never satisfactorily substantiated.

From whatever I can glean from my research most of the confusion seems to stem from the efforts of Ji Han Jae, Kim Moo Woong and Myong Jae Nam to formulate a sound synthesis of material and market it under the name "Hapkido". The effort was unsuccessful and there has been hell to pay ever since. The individual who may have contributed the greatest amount of confusion to this history is Myong Jae Nam himself. His efforts to align the Hapkido community in Korea with the Aikido community in Japan seems to have been the single greatest influence in developing and propagating the sorts of stories you are commenting on.

I beleive an extreme example of the principle can be found in the efforts of the Florida gentleman you cited, whose teacher was apparently only tangentially connected to the Hapkido community and apparently practiced Aikido. The connection, once again, are the common Chinese characters which, when read one way and then the other --Japanese and then Korean--- result in "aikido" and "hapkido" respectively. FWIW.

In the end, Modern Aikido has about as much to do with Modern Hapkido as Modern Daito-ryu has with its precursor from the Middle Ages. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Ron Tisdale
20th December 2005, 14:48
Hi Nathan,

The picture you posted includes Rick Fine. He is a member of the study group in Baltimore under Kondo Sensei, has been to Japan at least once that I know of to train at the Shimbukan, and has his Korean teacher's permission to do so.

As far a I know, he is NOT mixing the two traditions, but teaching them separately, the Daito ryu in a study group fashion. He does post here occationally, so if you send him an email, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to accomodate any curriosity. Perhaps he knows something of the school in question.

Best,
Ron (and happy holidays to all)

glad2bhere
20th December 2005, 16:18
The specific group pictured in this thread is a study group started by Shin Hoon during an extended stay in Texas beginning last year. Shin Hoon is the instructor at the YONG SUL KWAN in Seoul and has been an ardent supporter of Dojunim Kim's material for quite some time. Hope this helps.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

rickfine
20th December 2005, 21:43
Actually, this is not a photo of Shin Hoon's study group. This photo was taken at my school here in Austin, on May 14 of this year. At my invitation Shin Hoon came to visit and, with his teacher's permission, was our guest instructor that morning. The photo depicts some of our students and instructors afterwards, with Shin Hoon and an accompanying member of his study group (back row, far left).

Shin Hoon had come to the U.S. for a spring semester of graduate studies at Texas A&M. His Yong Sul Kwan study group was based there. That's about 120 miles from Austin (close by Texas standards :D ). During his stay here in Texas, we met twice to compare our research on these perplexing history questions: the occasion in the photo, and once earlier in the semester when I took a drive to A&M.

And that's all there is to it: just a little Texas hospitality, folks.

Nathan Scott
21st December 2005, 21:08
Hi Bruce,

Thanks for the info. I'm glad somebody has sorted it all out! :D

Ron, thanks for the post, but FWIW, I didn't post Mr. Fine's name because I didn't want the post to come across like an off the cuff attack. More than anything, I was surprised to come across his photo on their page (or course identifying him as a DR studygroup member, not a KMA member...).

Same goes for the gentleman in Florida. I feel like it is basically wrong to translate the name into another language and promote it as "Daito-ryu", but didn't know how others felt about it. It's kind of like Hakko-ryu - the name is different, but there is never a shortage of Daito-ryu references by Hakko-ryu exponents, both in person and in their publications. One individual teaching Hakko-ryu out in my area actually uses a picture of Kondo Sensei demonstrating DR technique as the centerpiece for his own Hakko-ryu flyer!

Anyway, my post was informational only. Opinions or clarifications welcome...

Regards,

TEA
19th April 2006, 14:33
What do y'all think? This GM is in his late '70s.

Hapkido Video (http://hapkido.re.kr/hapkido/3388/movie_138.wmv )

I think his technique looks very polished, but he seems to leave himself open to a strike from his uke's free hand in a lot of these techniques.

Jose Garrido
19th April 2006, 14:47
Mr. Cheavens,

Thank-you for this link. The video was wonderful. The man truly had very nice techniques. And his Ukes were excellent at ukemi.

IMHO I saw a very good example of excellent Jujutsu techniques, but as I stated this just my opinion.

I have rarely seen Hapkidoist do techniques like these. Most of what I have seen has been more of the "Billy Jack" kicking stuff.

Once again, thanks for the link it will go to my hard drive archives.

Jose Garrido

Ron Tisdale
19th April 2006, 16:21
Wow. To move like that when in your 70's. Man.

Beats the heck out of Billy Jack.

Best,
Ron

knghtazrael
19th April 2006, 17:20
Mr. Cheavens,
IMHO I saw a very good example of excellent Jujutsu techniques, but as I stated this just my opinion.

I have rarely seen Hapkidoist do techniques like these. Most of what I have seen has been more of the "Billy Jack" kicking stuff.
Jose Garrido

It was a very good video. I myself have only seen a little of Hapkido but have done some research on the art. It's my understanding that Hapkido got some of its origins from Daito-Ryu and i've been told later some influence of Aikido itself. However Hapkido teaches both the joint locks ect of jujutsu as well as the striking of TKD so you do get some interesting kicking. All in all I've been told it's a very good art.

Ray Bellville

chrismoses
19th April 2006, 18:35
Well, not to seem eletist or anything, but why is this in the AJJ forum? It's not Koryu and it's not AJJ.

As for the video itself, he's obviously skilled at what he does, and it's great that he's able to move that fast at his age, BUT there's a lot I don't like (if it's to be analyzed from an Aikido/jutsu mindset). There's not much kuzushi to speak of his uke is balanced throughout the technique until being wrenched to the ground at the end. His footwork is pretty sloppy for someone dealing with a cooperative attacker/student. Most of his throws are accomplished at the expense of his own posture and/or throwing his weight rotationally through his hips. So I guess you could say that I'm not super impressed, and don't really feel this is the right place for this video. Aikidojournal.com now has a Hapkido sub-forum, perhaps that might be a better place for discussion about this.

chrismoses
19th April 2006, 20:10
elitist even...

Ron Tisdale
19th April 2006, 20:16
Hi Chris,

I can't disagree with any of your critisisms (omph, I hate typing that word) but I'm not sure that disqualifies it from this forum. I know I saw some waza in there that very much resembled some of the Daito ryu waza I'm familiar with. Acknowledging the lack of provenance to "authentic" Daito ryu, I'm not sure that we can't look at the video here and discuss why we don't think of it as authentic Daito ryu.

Some of the points you mentioned came to mind when I watched the clip. For instance, when grabbed, it seemed the shite did no movement off line or entering or turning. He pretty much just stood there, with the attacker (as you said) remaining balanced. Most Japanese schools of jujutsu or aikido would probably not agree with that operating system. I don't think he even really used atemi for the initial kuzushi, though there were plenty of dynamic atemi once he got going.

All in all, I enjoyed the clip for what it was, and am really amazed that he moves like that in his 70's. So while I might not agree with all of the principles displayed, I am pretty impressed.

Best,
Ron

chrismoses
19th April 2006, 20:27
I know I saw some waza in there that very much resembled some of the Daito ryu waza I'm familiar with. Acknowledging the lack of provenance to "authentic" Daito ryu, I'm not sure that we can't look at the video here and discuss why we don't think of it as authentic Daito ryu.



Personally I see more in common between mainline Aikido and the publicly demonstrated aspects of DR than I do with this (or really any) Hapkido clip. This area isn't for the discussion of Aikido either. One could argue that there isn't a specific place for the study of Hapkido, but then you look up in that left hand corner and it says, "The Internet's Source For Japanese Martial Arts And Culture." Now, if the poster had discussed various specifics found in the video and how they relate to known and easily referenced DR kata, that would be something, but I don't see that happening.

John Connolly
19th April 2006, 20:35
http://www.hapkidoforum.com/

Ron Tisdale
19th April 2006, 21:13
Well, I just did a search on "aikido" in this forum, and came up with 20 pages of individual posts that mention aikido.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/search.php?searchid=143551


Now, if the poster had discussed various specifics found in the video and how they relate to known and easily referenced DR kata, that would be something, but I don't see that happening.

Cough...well, I was trying to start that off with the very words you quoted of mine...but...

Best,
Ron ;)

Jose Garrido
19th April 2006, 22:15
Just to clarify what I stated before.

I think that it was very nice Jujutsu. This does not mean that it was Daito-ryu. IMHO there was absolutely no AIKI being used in the wazas.

All that being said.........this gentlemen can really move, especially at his age.

Jose' Garrido

TEA
19th April 2006, 22:51
I posted it here because Hapkido is derived from Daito-ryu and to get input on what y'all think of his technique as compared to traditional DR AJJ. I should have been more specific in my first post.

kenkyusha
20th April 2006, 00:03
But from a Japanese jujutsu framework, he (while quite good at what he does) doesn't control the attacker's center. There is also a thing about w/potentially armed opponents: don't move more than he does- this gentleman doesn't seem to mind doing all of the work.

Be well,
Jigme

BTW, you might want to look around a bit re: connections between Hapkido and DRAJJ.

glad2bhere
22nd April 2006, 23:39
This may or may not help but I thought I would throw in something from the "Korean" side.

I know that, speaking for myself, I enjoy coming to E-BUDO for the simple reason that most-- nearly all-- of the contributors here are well-informed about what they do in Japanese traditions.

Because of the close influence of Japanese traditions on Korean traditions during the 20th century I tend to have to observe both sides of the Eastern Sea for input about my research. To make matters more complicated, not a few folks get "lazy" and fall back on using Japanese terms and culture to discuss Korean practices and this only makes things LESS clear not MORE clear.

Many of the contributions that I make are usually passing comments wanting to inject a comparable Korean take on something that closely resembles what we do. Purpose? Just to aid to the fund of information that helps us understand each other better, nothing more. That said, maybe we can just view the clip as a contribution to such an end as this, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

powerof0ne
24th April 2006, 02:34
I'm not even an Aikido/Aikijujutsu practitioner(have dabbled in both in the past)and I have to agree with Chris on this, why is this in here?

Mark Jakabcsin
24th April 2006, 03:19
why is this in here?

Advertising.

MJ

TEA
26th April 2006, 03:18
Advertising.

MJ

Surely you are not pointing that at me. If you'd bothered to read my bio, I do not nor have I ever practiced Hapkido. My interest in posting this here was solely to get some DR perspective on this video considering the Hapkidoist's claims that Hapkido is derived from DR AJJ.

My personal background is TKD and Aikido (Kumano Juku Dojo under Hikizutchi Sensei), so I really don't have a dog in this hunt with regards to Hapkido's DR AJJ origins. From cross training with some Hapkido practitioners I can tell that what they do (at least those in the US that I have trained with) is jujitsu based, but it is very different from the Aikido I learned in Japan. However, since Aikido is very different from DR AJJ, which it is derived from, and there are even so many "flavors" of Aikido (to borrow from a thread on the AikidoJournal forum), I wanted to submit this video in a DR AJJ setting to get some feedback. The comments that Jose made with regards to aiki and Chris made with regards to kuzushi were just the types of comments I was looking for. If you note in my original post, I too question the technique in this video. Chris actually got to the heart of my "issues" with Hapkido with his observations about the lack of kuzushi.

My own experience in Aikido is fairly limited, but I'd always seen weaknesses in the Hapkido (and most TKD hosinsul) tecnhique that I'd observed based on the tori's not moving out of position for a follow up technique from the uke (if someone is grabbing you its usually to set up either a follow up strike or takedown) and not taking the uke's ballance away in the process.

I see one of the moderators tacked my post on to a most acromonious previous thread about HKD and DR AJJ. I hope that some of you have been keeping tabs on this ongoing debate over on the aikidojournal fourms. Its seems to have progressed to a much higher plane than some of the debate here earlier in this decade. With that in mind, let me offer some of my own observations.

Koreans are not the only ones to have embellished and mythologized origins of their MA. Even Takeda Sokatsu's claims with regards to the Aizu clan's family fighting arts is suspect, which in turn throws DR AJJ's claim as a true Koryu in question. Lets not forget some of the claims made that DR AJJ was originally founded by Minamoto Yoshitsune, who learned his fighting arts from Tengu. Or how about the claims that Ueshiba studied under yama-bushi? Doshin So's claims to have been the head instructor at the Shaolin Temple? Or claims that Daruma introduced Shaolin Chuan Fa from India and meditated in a cave until his eyelids fell off? I'm not very familiar with European fighting arts, but I'd bet that there are a few whoppers there, too (hmm, Lancelot as founder of some obscure sword art?)

With regards to revisionism in the history of Tae Kwon Do, I think that its more of a recent phenomanum than most people recongnize. When I first started studying TKD back in the early '80s, my Subumnin told me that in the '60s TKD was originally called "Korean Karate" in the US because no one in the US knew what Tae Kwon Do was, the name being recently invented, and because the founders of the post-WWII kwans had all studied Karate in Japan. He did tell me that TKD was a combination of traditional Korean arts heavily influenced by Okinawan Karate, though (this brings up a point I will address later). He was what we might consider as a 3rd generation TKD master, having learned in the '60s from a Korean master who had studied under the Kwanjangnim of Jidokwan, Yun Kwei-byung. As far as I know, Yun Kwei-byung never claimed that what he taught was ever anything other than a combination of Shudokan and Shito-ryu, so this shows how stories can change in just a single generation. When I first got a copy of Richard Kim's "Advancing in Taekwondo," my original instructor warned me that the historiography was pretty fantastical, but yet just a few years later this TKD as having ancient roots from the Hwarang myth was the standard "accepted" history (since so many people new the real histor, I question how "accepted" it was).

As for the "combination of Karate and traditional Korean martial arts," I think this myth/theory might deserve a bit more examination and has some bearing on any possible relationship between DR AJJ and Hapkido. A couple of questions: what was the previous MA experience, if any, of the Koreans who went to Japan and picked up Japanese and Okinawan MAs? What previous experience did their senior students have when they came back from Japan and set up their own schools? For example, I am a relatively low rank in TKD and take TKD to some country that has never been exposed to it before. All of my senior students are accomplished boxers. Wouldn't it seem logical that my senior students would incorporate boxing once they take over? Since my own TKD skills weren't as developed as that one would find at the Kukkiwon, wouldn't it make sense that my students would develop a very different style, especially once they developed it past the level that I had when I introduced it to this fictional country?

Just a few thoughts to ponder in both the origins and development of HKD and TKD.

Could it be possible that Choi learned at least a basic level of DR AJJ in Japan and that his senior students already had some other Judo and Jujitsu training to weld this on to? After all, judo was taught in Korean public schools under Japanese rule and there were a smattering of jujitsu schools around Korea. After all, a lot of the techniques in the video I linked seem to be derived from DR AJJ (at least as I see it based on my limited Aikido training), but at a more "basic" level of the jujitsu sans aiki.

Lastly, I think Mr. Hukchu makes a valid point with regards to what most of us have seen in terms of Hapkido being largely the result of junior students branching out on their own prior to mastering the more complex levels of the art. I am at least going to keep an open mind with regards to this last point until I get an opportunity to train with one of these GM that claim to have received the true instruction of GM Choi. However, if this video is supposed to be evidence of this higher level of Hapkido, then I tend to agree that whatever Choi brought back from Japan was not based on the higher teachings of DR AJJ.

Nathan Scott
27th April 2006, 06:25
I see one of the moderators tacked my post on to a most acromonious previous thread about HKD and DR AJJ.

That'd be me. I merge threads like this with this existing "master" thread in order to keep the information together and more searchable. Since this isn't the "KMA" or "Hapkido" forum, and I've yet to see any evidence supporting the claim that Choi studied Daito-ryu, it doesn't make sense to me to clutter up this forum with incessant speculation.

There are KMA forums out there. Stan even created a forum for you at AJ. Why do some insist on rehashing the same, tired speculations on other boards?

Anyway, that's why the threads were merged (as will most future threads on the subject).

As far as the video goes, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Performing those kind of techniques from that kind of hand grabbing doesn't follow any logic, plus, the uke is just throwing himself around anyway. I've got no idea what it is supposed to be...

Regards,

Fred27
27th April 2006, 07:34
, plus, the uke is just throwing himself around anyway. I've got no idea what it is supposed to be...

Regards,

In all fairness here, isn't that what some critics say about aikido too? :)

chrismoses
27th April 2006, 17:10
In all fairness here, isn't that what some critics say about aikido too? :)

A lot of Aikido (IMHO) is crap too and would be just as out of place in this particular forum.


(edited for nice-ness...)

TEA
29th April 2006, 05:42
A lot of Aikido (IMHO) is crap too and would be just as out of place in this particular forum.


(edited for nice-ness...)

True. I think that Aikido suffers the same lack of quality control that Hapkido does (and most other popular martial arts styles,for that matter). That is one of the things that I find attractive about Daito-ryu, it seems to have a very high degree of quality control.

stanley neptune
10th May 2006, 21:01
Folks,

Has anyone ever heard of Master Hal Whalen? He teaches Hapkido in Beantown aka Boston Massachusetts. He is a 7th degree black belt and supposedly one of the highest ranking non Koreans.

I put this in the AJJ forum becaust it just seemed to fit considering recent discussions.

Thanks in advance

Stanley Neptune

chrismoses
10th May 2006, 21:11
I put this in the AJJ forum becaust it just seemed to fit considering recent discussions.

Thanks in advance

Stanley Neptune

Why? Are there aspects to his teaching that indicate a stronger connection to traditional Daito Ryu than would be seen in other lines of Hapkido? Is it REALLY too much to ask for the AJJ forum to be about AJJ?

John Connolly
10th May 2006, 21:29
Really, I dig Hapkido, and Whalen has a great reputation... but couldn't you post this elsewhere, like the Hapkido boards?

stanley neptune
11th May 2006, 05:57
Chris & John

Two things--

1. Ehhhhhhhhxxxxxxxxcuuuuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzzz meeeeeee!
2. I am not part of other boards and thought I might get some positive feedback here. Sorry to put you out! Most people here are helpful and open minded and considerate and don't mind answering a question. And holy cow the AJJ forum is so busy and has so many discussions this huge thought-provoking-question is just going to clog things up. It's like Howard Stern if you don't like him turn him off!! If my question annoys your aiki bunny sensibilities don't answer it. Blow past it. I am just using one of many venues for my own due diligence. Sorry I asked.

Honestly in all my years on this forum I have never had two people, back to back, get their panties in a wad about a simple one sentence question. It was a pretty innocous question don't you think? Chris and John really?

Stanley Neptune

Jock Armstrong
11th May 2006, 14:17
Actually Stanley- since this forum doesn't really deal with arts which aren't really Japanese / Okinawan- why the attitude? Hapkido is Korean right? No need for you to get pissy about people not thinking that Hapkido is irrelevant to a Japanese style forum.. Discuss it on a Korean/hapkido forum unless you really want to examine the links between Japanese and Korean arts seriously. the fact that most korean instructors actively talk shite about the origin of their korean arts is really irrelevant to most Japanese stylists [ be they Daito ryu or whatever]. This does not equate to a skill debate- most of the Korean Hapkido stuff looks well executed- but what relevance does it have to a forum dedicated to Japanese/ Okinawan arts?

chrismoses
11th May 2006, 16:08
Stanley, it appears that now three of us have our panties in a bunch, I suggest handbags at 30 paces and we all switch to thongs, since when those get bunched up, you hardly notice. :)

Anyhoo, if people want to talk Hapkido, there's a thread that Nathan has lumped that discussion into. You could have just as easily posted there with your question. Hapkido has MORE documented connection to judo than DaitoRyu, so why not post in the judo area? Personally I think hapkido (were it to be discussed on this board) would be best suited to the jujutsu forum. Fact of the matter is that it wouldn't be treated much better there. There are places to discuss hapkido elsewhere (hapkido forums, MMA forums, even AJ.com has a hapkido forum now) and I have nothing wrong with people with hapkido experience piping in and commenting on the commonalities and similarities. Certainly they exist and I think that some of the hapkido members on this board have added greatly to the board. I hope it's clear I don't have anything against Hapkido, I think that it's probably a more applicable and practical martial art than Aikido, its closest relative. I just don't think that it belongs here in this forum, and it particularly doesn't need another thread when one already exists to keep all the hapkido talk in one place. I could be wrong but I get the impression that this is the norm. Sorry to have offended, but it seems we've been through this already.

John Connolly
11th May 2006, 20:23
Stanley,

What Chris and Jock said.

Also, you should know, I am a Hapkidoin, as well as an Aiki Bunny. I am more than happy to talk about Hapkido... elsewhere.

What is precious about this forum is its restriction to discussion of Japanese Aikijujutsu. I would like to see it stay that way, simply because there are not many places like it.

Do you see why it is important to us to not have the mountains of contentious Hapkido discussion overwhelm the fairly rare discussion of fairly rare Japanese art(s)?

Nathan Scott
12th May 2006, 05:44
Merged with existing off-topic thread. Enjoy.

John Connolly
12th May 2006, 16:45
Oh. Well, now I have no real objection.

Stanley, Like I said before, Whalen has a great reputation. By all means check out his dojang.

Mark Jakabcsin
14th May 2006, 14:32
Personally I agree with Chris, Jock and John. Stanley your original post doesn't belong here and frankly Nathan was overly nice to merge your thread instead of simply deleting it. Your follow on temper tantrum and name calling was most unwelcome.

While you will probably take this wrong I am very curious about something. Stanely for the last couple years I have seen you post similar threads to this one asking about a specific teacher or art. Do you actually train in a martial art or are you simply curious about martial arts? If you do train I hope you don't mind me asking how often? I'm just trying to get a feel for where all of your constant 'art' questioning is coming from.

Take care,

Mark J.

Rob Gassin
15th May 2006, 15:40
My intention is not to inflame the situation any further. Just to make a few observations.

I have been practicing Shorinjikempo since 1983 and Hapkido concurrently since 1992.

I have no doubt that the breakfalls, wrist locks and throws of Hapkido have a japanese origin. Whether they derive from DR AJJ, I have no idea.

To complicate matters, the term Hapkido, does not describe a single MA style, it is akin to the term Karate, which encompases a number of quite different styles.

Even if Hapkido did derive from DR AJJ, given its training methods, it is not suprising that the techniques look so different today. Whereas in the Japanese arts, the student is taught the 'right' way of doing techniques, and the sensei will stop and correct mistakes, in Hapkido, the student is encouraged to repeat the techniques, with warts and all, over and over again until it works for him. By then, it may only retain a superficial resemblence to the original technique. The correct body movement, positioning of the feet etc is not emphasised, only the final result (whatever that may be) counts.

Whereas in the Japanese arts, the attacker has something in mind when he grabs a defender's wrist, arm or clothing, in hapkido, at least at the lower grades, and as seen in the video, the grabs are static and frankly, unrealistic. However, contrary to what has been posted earlier, breaking the balance and keeping out of reach of the attacker's weapons are crucial to the proper execusion of Hapkido techniques.

Compared to Hapkido, ShorinjiKempo (some claim that Doshin So studied Hakko Rytu), has much fewer techniques but much more stringent quality control. The entry into most techniques is different and the finer points of the techniques are taught in much greater detail. Interestingly though, to the casual observer, SK looks much less like aikido or AJJ, than does Hapkido!!

From all accounts, Choi was an exceptional martial artist. He obviously learnt his skills from somewhere. Given the scope of Hapkido techniques, AJJ is the most likely source of his knowledge. But frankly, the various styles of Hapkido have evolved so much since then that whatever style Choi might have learnt is of no more than academic interest.

I would suggest to the Hapkido crowd to accept that Choi's claim regarding DR AJJ is contentious. Video record of Choi performing techniques in the early days of Hapkido might be enlightning.

I would suggest to the DR AJJ crowd that the only way to put this controversy to rest is for your style to open it's historical records (if they exist) to scrutiny.

In the meantime, I agree, discussion of Hapkido has no place in this forum. Maybe a new forum specifically for non-japanese MA's with Japanese roots should be started?

Samurai Jack
15th May 2006, 17:18
I have been reading about this controversy for years! And I mean years because it has been going on for decades! :) This is what I have gleaned from this incongruous and unceasing matter, in a nut shell.

This public argument will never die; no one is going to cry uncle.

The romance went sour. The past and present history between the Japanese and Koreans is compounded diligently by the nature of each martial arts culture. Therefore, no concrete truth packaged for the "Western" mind will arise from the ashes.

He said, she said. Both sides have interest in keeping the conflict going. Neither side wants this to end or find resolution; the PR is too good for both. As along as their is conflict there is attention, and at this point the attention is not hurting either party, then why ruin the party when so many people are coming through the front doors.

The truth is out there. The facts that lead to the truth are not being presented for the "Western" mind. No shock to anyone, this can be a conundrum for those of us who don't think in Eastern terms. Remember this issue is between two similar "Asian" cultures, which developed almost completely differently then the "West." I would find it hard to believe either the Japanese or Koreans really care out side of who they can recruit for their side ( blatant or not ) that they lack a western PR package.

If the truth really matters, then to find the truth, drop that Western instrumentation, push it aside and then pick up that Asian brush instead. Clearly, with the numerous years of debate and jaw-boning over this matter has not uncovered the truth that satisfies the Western mind. Thereby, this matter of paternity can create a mental hell for those who seek a concrete and definite truth.

Finally, who cares other then these organizations' leaders and families, really. That is outside of bragging rights and avoiding embarrassment that might be experienced by the organizations. It's really has become internet martial -art -entertainment for better or worse.

I hope this helps those newly sucked into this bottomless pit of bandwidth. :)

Samurai Jack
15th May 2006, 18:02
To those newbies, I suggest you mosey on over to Aikidojournal and Google news groups where encapsulated is years and years of "discussions" about this topic in all its repetitive glory. I am sure there are other forums as well, but you only have one live time to read it all. The thing you might find valuable though is an insight to how Japanese and Koreans behave. Even though very few of the posters that post at either place are Japanese or Koreans, much less any with direct involvement in the issue. It maybe worthy to note that those posters are simply taking sides and repeating what they have been told and what they have heard. No slight upon them intended as it is a matter of illustrating how those Japanese and Korean instructors work through their students.

If you don't mind me saying, it is a small world and even smaller martial arts world. The video of Choi put on the net, and that of Daito ryu which Kondo has made public indicates a similarity in the arts. Where Choi learned those techniques or what have you, are similar enough in principle to credit or reference Daito ryu. In regard to the Hapikido crowd they fight for the recognition for their reasons, and strangely this is the opposite of what the Aikido people did up until the 1990's and tried like hell to have nothing to do with any association with Daito ryu; now as it stands I see mixed feelings, and opinions among the Aikido community.

For those who are suiting up for internet warfare, I hope I have provided you with the armaments you may need. For those for you scared poopless and are bolting from the keyboard then this is one time where flight pays off.


Well I hoped you enjoy your tour here and don't forget to tip your waitresses instead of the cows. Yuck, yuck, yuck. If you don't laugh then you cry.

Nathan Scott
15th May 2006, 20:27
From all accounts, Choi was an exceptional martial artist. He obviously learnt his skills from somewhere. Given the scope of Hapkido techniques, AJJ is the most likely source of his knowledge.

Or, from study and/or observation of pre-war aikido, or, from study and/or observation of any one of the approx. 30,000 students Sokaku Takeda claimed, one of which Choi MAY have come across some where (most of these would have had only had a few days of training if any training at all), or, from another Japanese jujutsu style that uses similar methods.

The debate about Hapkido history is and will be on-going because of lack of evidence to support the claims of some of its students, not from agendas, ignorance or egos from either side. Unfortunately, there has been so much lying about art histories from the Korean side that everything that comes out now is subject to skepticism. That is too bad.

Unfortunately, looking at relatively recent (post WWII) footage of Hapkido and related arts is not very good evidence, since anyone can have their students fall for them and try to imitate what they have seen others do. This kind of evidence in itself (technique currently found in these arts) is unreliable "evidence".

There is no guarentee that Daito-ryu has any more records available in regards to a Korean connection, even if they were enclined to further open their records up for public consumption. On the other hand, there surely exists various caches of pre-WWII footage of Hapkido and related arts. This footage, if authentic, would be the most interesting "non-concrete" evidence of what the art was, and as such, where it may have come from.

Regards,

Rob Gassin
15th May 2006, 22:06
Nathan,

Choi did not return to Korea until after WWII therefore there is no pre WWII Hapkido footage.

Further more, I do not think you can get good enough to demonstrate let alone teach wrists locks, throws, ukemis etc by observing or doing a few sessions with aAJJ or aikido practitioner. It takes years to become proficient.

Cheers,

chrismoses
15th May 2006, 22:09
Further more, I do not think you can get good enough to demonstrate let alone teach wrists locks, throws, ukemis etc by observing or doing a few sessions with aAJJ or aikido practitioner. It takes years to become proficient.

Cheers,

One word, Larry Barrish. ;)

DDATFUS
16th May 2006, 05:05
or, from another Japanese jujutsu style that uses similar methods.



I was under the impression, based on things read on this board and others, that Daito Ryu is very distinctive amongst the Japanese jujutsu styles. Just out of curiosity, could someone please recommend a link where I can learn more about styles of jujutsu that resemble Daito Ryu and how they are similar?

Thanks much,

Nathan Scott
16th May 2006, 08:55
Choi did not return to Korea until after WWII therefore there is no pre WWII Hapkido footage.

And there you have the problem - from approx. 1925 on, the new "aikido" movements of Ueshiba Morihei starting becoming popular, and more accessible than that of the Daito-ryu of Sokaku.

- In 1930 Kano Jigoro (Judo) sent some of his students to train with Ueshiba.

- By around 1933 Ueshiba was no longer using the Daito-ryu name, and Shioda Gozo of Yoshinkan began training with Ueshiba. Also, Ueshiba's 1st book "Budo Renshu", originally titled "Aikijujutsu Okugi" (Secret Teachings of Aikijujutsu) was privately published, which contained 166 techniques.

- In 1935 the documentary type film "Budo" was shot (Ueshiba doing Aikido).

- In 1938 the book "Budo" was privately published by Ueshiba.

- In 1943 Takeda Sokaku died.

- In 1952 Shioda Gozo (Yoshinkan Aikido) visited 83 police stations in Japan, establishing aikido in the law enforcement community.

- In 1955 Shioda Gozo founded the Yoshinkan Dojo in Tokyo.

- In 1956 Ueshiba gave his "first" open public demonstration.

Etc, etc. Point being that just the students of Sokaku within the Ueshiba line began demonstrating, teaching, and writing books prior to the end of WWII. There is various B&W footage of Ueshiba, Shioda and other Daito-ryu derived instructors that were becoming widespread and more accessible. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to establish where "Daito-ryu like" techniques and methods were to have come from if nothing exists prior to the popularization of aikido (based on what we have for evidence currently). All things considered, I just think that it is more likely that Choi was influenced by either a student of Sokaku or exposure to early aikido (directly or through books/videos) if there is any DR/Aikido influence to begin with.


Further more, I do not think you can get good enough to demonstrate let alone teach wrists locks, throws, ukemis etc by observing or doing a few sessions with aAJJ or aikido practitioner. It takes years to become proficient.

It does take years to become proficient at such techniques, but if you are naturally skilled and experienced in martial arts, you could steal the shapes and "make them work" (ie: crank away), supplementing the techniques with generous amounts of strikes to fill in any openings/gaps in the techniques. Many styles of old jujutsu did not even teach ukemi, you just got thrown and figured it out. There are some in Aikido currently that just throw in punchs and kicks to remedy controlling/throwing problems in the technical performance. It's a great fix. Others just have their students take falls for them (see Chris' comment), which I've also noticed in some of the various Hapkido/Hapkiyusool clips posted. That is also a great way to "make it work for you."

On the other hand, I do agree though that it is more likely that Choi had some type of training exposure, formally or otherwise, in some kind of judo or jujutsu - if throwing and locking techniques were in fact emphasized in early Hapkido.


I was under the impression, based on things read on this board and others, that Daito Ryu is very distinctive amongst the Japanese jujutsu styles. Just out of curiosity, could someone please recommend a link where I can learn more about styles of jujutsu that resemble Daito Ryu and how they are similar?

I'm not sure about this question, but I'm going to assume it is a sincere question anyway just in case.

The quick answer is Daito-ryu is quite unique as a jujutsu style in some ways, and typical in other ways. There are only so many ways to lock the joints in human beings, and as such, similarities in outer locking shapes are pretty common. The question of differences becomes a combination of historical context of development, operating principles being use, method of training, etc. Some of these are harder to see from the outside than others.

But to answer your question, there are a couple of places you can look for comparisons. One is a two volume series in English called "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts", by Sugawara Tetsutaka. Though it is not a comparison of aikido and jujutsu, it does illustrate how the methods of aikido can be taken apart and found in other systems. The other reference that best answers you question is a Japanese language only book called "Hiden Koryu Jujutsu Giho", by Hirakami Nobuyuki. Though I don't agree with much of the conclusions the author makes in regards to these comparisons, it is a good attempt at demonstrating how various jujutsu arts have some similar looking techniques.

Regards,

glad2bhere
16th May 2006, 15:47
Dear Dan, Nathan et al:

You must trust me when I say that it is no picnic from the OTHER side of the arguement, either. I have been doing research into Korean martial traditions for a few years now. I must report that the Koreans are no better in their self-reports to people on this side than they are to people in the MA community in general. Even within the KMA and Hapkido community itself there are grandiose claims, embellished historys and assertions that border perilously on outright fraud. Nor is the concept of the "Hermit Kingdom" dead. Just because it is not expressed politically does not mean that in their dealings with non-Koreans the Korean people have lost any of their xenophobic proclivities. Most or any accurate technical and historical information is reserved to a special few and attempting to prise loose even the most simple citations and references can be challenge worthy of Hercules.

All that said, I can report that the material I have been able to uncover is not so different from the material in any other culture that has been used for propaganda purposes. Take away the glizt and glamour and what you have are average people doing average things under extraordinary circumstances. The reality of this, though, does not sell a lot of TKD contracts at the local school, right? Furthermore, traditional Korean arts are often particularly difficult to learn and must be mastered a bit at a time. Such protracted efforts are not the stuff of successful commercial ventures in cultures where "quick, cheap and easy" rule. The result is that most Korean traditions that survived the 20th Century are dying from neglect. Sad but true.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Pizza
20th May 2006, 12:16
I partly agree with the last post. Korean arts are rare because the mastery was so long, and many masters in fact refused to train many students. Either that or their methods were so grpping that everyone quit.


But I do have to admit the Japanese eventually developed good sword skills especially from 1500s-1600s, but only because they kept fighting every day amongst themselves so of course they get good.

Korea used to have some unbelievable martial artists but several things prevented the legacy of Korean warriors today (they are not as famous as samurai)

1. Unlike Japan, Koreans were not allowed to "duel" outside of war, preventing both senseless killings and individual MA glory
2. Korean masters refused to teach anyone outside of "good students."
Since human beings are generally screwed up and many Koreans has baaad tempers most ended up having no one to pass on their knowledge

The last person I consider a true Korean-Martial Arts master was a descendant of a HwaRang and is the last person on earth to have direct HwaRang MA lineage training (all the rest are re-creations from old manuals). He was a monk and when he went to the city in the 70s (not sure exactly when) he got jumped by a roughly translated "stick gang" who as the name said all fought with sticks. He broke off a big umbrella handle and preceded to kick all their buts, and according to all eyewitnesses not once did he get hit. The fight lasted 4-5 HOURS and the last hour was caught by the media. Everyone looked for him so he set up a dojo, which closed down in less than two months because everyon quit. He refused to lighten the training for the purpose of keeping student, some of the training included "climb that mountain ten times" and craziness like that. He had them dig a huge hole about five feet, then asked them to jump in and out of it 500 times or something like that??? All of this before teaching anyone any techniques because "they were not ready yet" and so everyone left and the art is now dead.



It was a big thing with LOTS of eyewitnesses and pictures in the newspapers and plus my dad was there so I'm not gonna question him lol

My dad told me some crazy techniques he did, it's incredible, i've never even heard of some of the concepts this guy was using. I can't show you in person so maybe I'll draw some stick figures to show what he did, it was truly amazing stuff.

About the training, he really did have people climbing mountains and jumping off of crazy heights and expected more than his students were willing to do. See the problems is in modern society you can't just be a full-time monk and MA student, at least not normally. People couldn't be there all day climing and jumping and training all day, so it was too much to expect and so everyone quit, and the dojo did shut down in less than two months. It's possible there's one or two other people in the world who have his same lineage but so far we don't know and by now they probably all died.... in fact everyone thought no one still knew the original (non-re-creation) HwaRang until this incident, he said his family made it a responsiblility so it was passed on and since they didn't teach it, it ended up being kind of secretive.

The HwaRang were an elite force trained from the age of around 5 in the old Korean days, all they did was train to be soldiers, but of course that stopped in modern society, and in a way it's good that kids don't have to be soldiers in Korea anymore

DDATFUS
21st May 2006, 07:26
I'm not sure about this question, but I'm going to assume it is a sincere question anyway just in case.

The quick answer is Daito-ryu is quite unique as a jujutsu style in some ways, and typical in other ways. There are only so many ways to lock the joints in human beings, and as such, similarities in outer locking shapes are pretty common. The question of differences becomes a combination of historical context of development, operating principles being use, method of training, etc. Some of these are harder to see from the outside than others.

But to answer your question, there are a couple of places you can look for comparisons. One is a two volume series in English called "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts", by Sugawara Tetsutaka. Though it is not a comparison of aikido and jujutsu, it does illustrate how the methods of aikido can be taken apart and found in other systems. The other reference that best answers you question is a Japanese language only book called "Hiden Koryu Jujutsu Giho", by Hirakami Nobuyuki. Though I don't agree with much of the conclusions the author makes in regards to these comparisons, it is a good attempt at demonstrating how various jujutsu arts have some similar looking techniques.

Regards,

The question was indeed sincere, though the question-asker (me) is often sincerely misinformed. I had heard that DRAJJ was quite unconventional amongst koryu jujutsu schools, both in theory and in the methods of transmission, but I really wasn't sure about the accuracy of that information or about the specifics. Thank you for your answer, which clarifies many of the things I had heard, and for your book recommendation. I speak a little Japanese, but I am hopeless at kanji, so "Hiden Koryu Jujutsu Giho" is out, but I will add "Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts" to my reading list.

Thanks again,

Nathan Scott
22nd May 2006, 22:47
Mr. Pizza,

Sign all your posts with your full, real name, per the policy you agree to or I will delete all your posts. Thanks.

Mr. Sims,

Glad to have been of some service in that case. Daito-ryu is said to be unorthodox in many ways compared to koryu, and in my opinion this is both true and untrue. It is pretty different than extant koryu jujutsu that I've seen in many ways, but Daito-ryu is the only "internal" jujutsu art that has survived, so it is the only example we have of an internal jujutsu system. To me the most unorthodox thing about Daito-ryu is the seminar method Sokaku used to teach the art.

Regards,

John Connolly
23rd May 2006, 05:51
Nathan,

Pizza already got banned for multiple personalities and no name (one sig was William Dotrieve of "King of the Hill).

glad2bhere
24th May 2006, 13:53
My own experience has been that Korean instruction is VERY long on repetition and conditioning and short on structure, curriculum, theory and analysis. I have a growing sense that most Koreans are rather niggardly in sharing depth in their material simply because they come to find that they HAVE little depth to share. This is not to say that Korean arts are superficial, but rather that there is simply not the same sort of intense and detailed examination of the art that one finds in say, Japanese culture.

Taken a step farther, it is not uncommon for a conflict to arise when a teacher raised in an unquestioning culture finds himself faced with a Westerner steeped in "critical thinking". A Korean national would find in-depth questions almost affrontive no matter how well-intentioned the Westerners motives. I am sure that I am more than a bit of a challenge to my own teachers as I routinely ask questions regarding technical bits which they have been raised to accept as resolved by simply "more training". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

stanley neptune
31st May 2006, 23:35
Personally I agree with Chris, Jock and John. Stanley your original post doesn't belong here and frankly Nathan was overly nice to merge your thread instead of simply deleting it. Your follow on temper tantrum and name calling was most unwelcome.

While you will probably take this wrong I am very curious about something. Stanely for the last couple years I have seen you post similar threads to this one asking about a specific teacher or art. Do you actually train in a martial art or are you simply curious about martial arts? If you do train I hope you don't mind me asking how often? I'm just trying to get a feel for where all of your constant 'art' questioning is coming from.

Take care,

Mark J.

None of your bees wax Mister. How d'ya like them apples?

Take care and thank you for your concern. You have been most helpful.

Stanley Neptune

Mark Jakabcsin
2nd June 2006, 22:07
None of your bees wax Mister. How d'ya like them apples?

Stanley Neptune

Stanley,
I like those apples just fine as they tell me all I wanted to know.

MJ

stanley neptune
6th June 2006, 20:06
Okay here is the scoop although I don't know why it matters. I have a blue belt on Kenpo. I have studied Northern Shaolin, very little Tae Kwon Do and a smattering of Small Circle Ju Jitsu.

I am currently, and have been for the last 4 years, studying JKD in a study group under Big Sean Madigan. I only train 2 times per week max. Sometimes the job gets in the way and it may be less. It is a good workout and it is very Wing Chun oriented.

I ask about other arts and styles because I like to see what might be useful.

Sorry if I offended anyone with my line of questions.

Stanley Neptune

stanley neptune
6th June 2006, 20:12
PS In the future I will address my questions to the appropriate forum.

Stanley Neptune

chrismoses
6th June 2006, 20:17
Thanks Stanley, that was much appreciated. Kudos.

Hapkiyoosool
29th December 2011, 19:25
I beleive an extreme example of the principle can be found in the efforts of the Florida gentleman you cited, whose teacher was apparently only tangentially connected to the Hapkido community and apparently practiced Aikido. The connection, once again, are the common Chinese characters which, when read one way and then the other --Japanese and then Korean--- result in "aikido" and "hapkido" respectively. FWIW.

In the end, Modern Aikido has about as much to do with Modern Hapkido as Modern Daito-ryu has with its precursor from the Middle Ages. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello, I am Master Jeff Allen and I am the "gentleman" in Florida and student of Grandmaster Chang Young-Shil. Having been in Hapkido for 36 years and studied under GM Chang in Korea at his school, I have the duty to correct anyone who says that Grandmaster Chang Young-Shil trained in Aikido or teaches it. He NEVER trained Aikido. GM Chang recieved his first two black belt certificates directly from Choi Yong-Sul and his other Dan certificates through the (at the time) Korean Hapkido Association up to his 9 Dan. I and MANY others have held these very certificates in our hands. He established his own federation 51 years ago. He opened the first school with Han Bong-Soo on Osan Air base in 1960. He trained along side Ji Han-Jae and Han Bong-Soo. Grandmaster Chang did/does travel to Japan to share techniques and information with the Daito-Ryu and Aikiai but, never trained in Aikido EVER! He has NEVER claimed to be in Aikido nor has he ever claimed to teach Aikido. If you have any questions pertaining to this, you may call him directly in Korea and talk to him. You can get his phone number on our website. http://www.hapkiyoosool.com
I hope this ends the discussion on this. Thank you.

Hapkiyoosool
29th December 2011, 19:47
My own experience has been that Korean instruction is VERY long on repetition and conditioning and short on structure, curriculum, theory and analysis. I have a growing sense that most Koreans are rather niggardly in sharing depth in their material simply because they come to find that they HAVE little depth to share. This is not to say that Korean arts are superficial, but rather that there is simply not the same sort of intense and detailed examination of the art that one finds in say, Japanese culture.

Taken a step farther, it is not uncommon for a conflict to arise when a teacher raised in an unquestioning culture finds himself faced with a Westerner steeped in "critical thinking". A Korean national would find in-depth questions almost affrontive no matter how well-intentioned the Westerners motives. I am sure that I am more than a bit of a challenge to my own teachers as I routinely ask questions regarding technical bits which they have been raised to accept as resolved by simply "more training". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I know that Grandmaster Chang Young-Shil is the very opposite of your assumed Korean stereotype. Our training in Korea was VERY long on repetition and conditioning and STRONG on structure, curriculum, theory and analysis. We welcome "questioning" on the mat and encrourage it greatly. You really can't say ALL Koreans are like this. It is like saying all "Americans are fat, lazy and stupid", quoted directly from the Japanese Prime Minister. You have to take a careful look at ALL instructor as individuals and compare them to no other. We are all unique and teach in our own way. Same techniques and whatnot but different views based on education and culture.

Hapkiyoosool
29th December 2011, 20:01
Dear Erik:

I just finished fielding a question along these lines for another person and thought you would find the following information interesting. This is always a subject guarenteed to start a flurry of emails so have fun but be careful.

BTW: Check out that site on AIKIDO JOURNAL.com. Theres' a lot of good info there if I do say so myself.

"Now THAT is the $64 thousand dollar question for the ages!!! I wish I could give you some nice neat yes or no but life doesn’t always work that way. I will tell you what my research has found to date.

The American Hapkido Assn has published an interview with GM Choi and I believe it is still on their website. How about if we use this as a medium for discussing this, ‘kay?

According to the interview, there is no question that GM Choi went Japan when he was very young (8 or 9) and lived there until he was repatriated to Korea after the Second WW. The report is that while in Japan as a small boy at a Buddhist school, GM Choi came to the attention of OS Takeda of the Daito-ryu and stayed with him for the balance of his stay in Japan. So far this is not a problem. Lots of people were moved from Korea to work in Japan and from Japan to populate Korea at that time. GM Suh, in an interview even states GM Chois’ Japanese name (Yoshida Tatujutsu). When GM Choi came back to Korea he reports that all his documents associated with his years in Japan were stolen at a train station. No documents. GM Choi reported in his interview that he had mastered Daito-ryu aikijujitsu and so began teaching what he called “yu sool” or “yawara”.

Now, lets take this a step at a time.

1.) In order to MASTER Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu you need to be awarded a Menkyo Kaiden. There have only been three of these awarded in the Daito-ryu history and GM Choi is not recorded as one of them. Many, many more teaching licenses were issued by the Daito-ryu (Kyoju Dairi) but there is no record of one being issued to GM Choi under either his Korean or Japanese name. There are however, other Korean MA who are listed on the attendence lists in the archives of various factions of the Daito-ryu. There is even a tantalizing rumor that GM Chois’ name can be found in the rosters held by the Daito-ryu Kodokai or the Roppokai but these organizations tend to be very closed lipped about this matter (and anything else as well) and will not allow for an examination of their records.
2.) GM Choi represented himself as one of, if not THE student of OS Takeda, going so far as to say that he, Choi, accompanied Takeda all of Japan and even to Hawaii for a historic presentation in the 1930-s. No records. No one remembers this person. There are no pictures or newsclippings. Not in more than 30 years of “training” is there any record or memory of GM Choi serving in this capacity (or any other that I have been able to find).
3.) The teachings of Daito-ryu can be broken into three levels of sophistication beginning with ju-jitsu, moving to aiki-jujitsu and ending with aikijitsu. The techniques which were integrated into the Korean arts by GM Choi are only of the ju-jitsu level of sophistication. (Now there has been indications of aiki-jujitsu and aikijitsu level technique but this has not been traced to GM Choi and is very inconsistent. This could suggest introduction by another Korean national who also learned Daito-ryu but to a higher level of sophistication, or may be indicative a higher level of development by Korean MA independent of Japanese influence and inspite of the terrible Japanese occupation. Needs more study.)
4.) The teaching of Daito-ryu include Ken-jitsu (Japanese sword techniques) of the Ona Itto Ha Ken-jitsu style. There are also Jo (stick), Bo (staff) and knife as well. None of these weapons biomechanics have been identified with Hapkido except as a function of those arts already existing in Korea at the time of GM Chois repatriation. Hapkido practices weapons but after the fashion of traditional Korean weaponry. So one finds Kum-bop instead of Japanese Kendo, cane rather than jo, and Korean staff and spear instead of Japanese Bo. The practice of knife or short-sword has become a matter of personal selection much like the practice of rope or belt techniques. Also the rope techniques are more a function of snaring or entangling rather than binding.

So, where does that leave us.

COULD GM Chois have studied Daito-ryu? Certainly. He also could have taken one of the many seminars offered by OS Takeda and then focused on study in one of the lesser schools. Or he could have just picked-up odd bits during his many years in Japan. Who knows?

Did GM Choi master Daito-ryu? In my opinion, No. There is no documentation, there is no biomechanical evidence, and there is no curricular evidence.

Why does this historical position persist? Follow the money. Hapkido is big business with a minimum of 7 major and hundreds of minor organizations. Nobody is going to step up and say that the emperor has no clothes. And, be careful, those same people don’t want anyone else saying it either!


Now I know you are probably eye-sore reading all this babbling and its not my place to try to convince you one way or another. I just want you to consider ALL sides of the story. Nothing I have said here is anything that you can’t find out for yourself if you just dig a bit. In the meantime I want to mention (briefly, Honest) something you mentioned in your letter.

Just to keep things clear the emptyhand techniques didn’t “come from” the weapons anymore than the weapons techniques “came from” the emptyhand techniques. These techniques (armed and unarmed) share common biomechanics such that if you can perform a particular movement well with you body doing an emptyhanded technique, you will likewise do well performing that same movement with a weapon. A turning movement with a sword is a turning movement for a kick, is a turning movement for a throw, is a turning movement for a strike, yes?

The “entwining” techniques you mentioned (AKA “snaring”) are extant in Hapkido and from what I have been able to find in research may have been preparatory for binding techniques. "Snaring" whether by elbow, knee or ankle is a manipulation taught at BB level (for me, I teach it at first degree BB) along with the limited binding techniques I have been able to uncover. If you locate some of the material of the Daito-ryu you will occasionally find techniques which allow the defender to stand and clap their hands while the attacker is “magically” restrained on the floor. Nearly always there is a knee or ankle snare involved to lock the attackers’ arms behind and allow the defenders’ hands to be free for other duties (such as binding). "

Have at it.

Best Wishes,
Bruce W Sims
www,midwesthapkido.com

You are correct on this Bruce. There are no records of Choi ever studying the complete art of Daito-Ryu. The only evidene proven is that he did know something that resembled the "short version of Jujutsu". He taught no sword, staff or any other weapon to my knwoledge of research. He taught basic jujtusu that kids learn in school. It was the other instructors like Chang Young-Shil, Han Bong-Soo, Ji Han-Jae, Myung Jae-Nam and others who took the initiative to learn all the missing parts or add what they felt was necessary to make it the complete art that it is today. That is one reasons that Grandmaster Chang would go to Japan is to get what was missing and put it al back together along with Korean cultural perspectives and life experience during the Korean War. Han Bong-Soo added his knolwedge of KongSooDo that he learned before studying Hapkido as well as Ji Han-Jae with whatever else he knew. Choi did start a huge movement though. It was a cause and effect epidemic for sure.