first two ZNKR kata -- where cutting?

[renfield_kuroda]

Last night in practice we ran through the 12 ZNKR seiteigata. First time I'd actually been taught them. I sort of remember the first first 2, but they're VERY different from Mugairyu and I have some basic questions. Forgive my ignorance on seiteigata!
* Where am I cutting? On Mae and Ushiro it seems like a cut to the artery in the neck (not a full beheading) and then a standard whack straight into the head.
* How does the right hand move from the end of the 2nd cut to next to the right ear (prep for chiburi)? Seems like you tilt the blade right, left hand to hip, then bring the kissaki around as if stabbing behind?
* For the 'horizontal noto', at what point do I straighten the saya to be vertical? Immediately after kissaki enters koiguchi? Or after 1/3 of the blade has entered? Is it a slow tilt back to vertical, or a quick rotation?

Many more questions, but as I can barely remember the first 2, this will do for now.
Also, are there any RECENT books that detail the ZNKR? I asked my instructors last night and they said the kata do change slightly, so older books might not be so good. Of course being in Japan I will purchase some Japanese books (including the "official" ZNKR text if such a thing exists) but I want to compare to English books.

Thanks and regards,

renfield kuroda

[Cady Goldfield]

Jack,

Interesting tidbit about using the whistle as a diagnostic to gauge cutting technique. But, wouldn't a blade without bo-hi also make sounds that vary according to movement, speed, etc. that could be used as a diagnostic as well?

Cady

[samuel-t]

Ok, I'll give it a try. :)


Last night in practice we ran through the 12 ZNKR seiteigata. First time I'd actually been taught them. I sort of remember the first first 2, but they're VERY different from Mugairyu and I have some basic questions. Forgive my ignorance on seiteigata!

Although I train ZNKR and MSR, I have the fortune of having a sensei who used to train Mugairyu, and have had the fortune of trying some of the Mugairyu kata, thus I can appreciate that you find ZNKR quite different. It is. ;)

Let's start by handing you a link to illustrated ZNKR kata: http://www.geocities.com/nobaradojo/Deel1.htm
The images doesn't show every single movement, but most of them. You might find the site handy. You might also find this link http://www.yushinkan.com/UK/ukshiai.html useful. It points out some of the specifics on each kata, and makes them slightly more realistic. Bear in mind though that Ishido-sensei is quite "koryu" when doing ZNKR (or at least that's what I've heard, and... well, when I was at Ishido-sensei's training camp in Amsterdam this summer, I think I can agree with that view. Doesn't do ZNKR bad though. At least not in my book. :))

And then: On to the questions.


* Where am I cutting? On Mae and Ushiro it seems like a cut to the artery in the neck (not a full beheading) and then a standard whack straight into the head.

On Mae and Ushiro, you cut across the eyes of the opponent -- from temple to temple, and the sword should stop right after exiting the opponent's right temple. This is not a beheading, as you so rightly have noticed, but merely wounding the opponent, preventing him/her from retaliating. Then you do the "standard whack", and split the opponent from head to hip.


* How does the right hand move from the end of the 2nd cut to next to the right ear (prep for chiburi)? Seems like you tilt the blade right, left hand to hip, then bring the kissaki around as if stabbing behind?

Right. Just a slight tilt, though. And bring the kissaki around with a stiff wrist. This will make the sword point backwards at a say 120 degree angle from your right arm.


* For the 'horizontal noto', at what point do I straighten the saya to be vertical? Immediately after kissaki enters koiguchi? Or after 1/3 of the blade has entered? Is it a slow tilt back to vertical, or a quick rotation?

Slowly tilt it, so that it reaches the vertical position after about 2/3 of the blade has entered. The entire sheathing is much slower than in Mugairyu -- not the rapid sheathing in to 2/3 and then slow, but slow all the way after kissaki has entered saya. My sensei has said that the three steps of ZNKR noto should realte to each other approximately the following way:

Starting a tsuba, slide the sword up to kissaki at the speed of 3 (not that fast).
Let kissaki enter saya at the speed of 1 (fast).
Slide the blade into saya at the speed of 6 or slower.

Hope this helps some. :)

And hey: Ignorance greatly forgiven. ;)

/Samuel

[Ric Flinn]

I think Samuel did a good job explaining. I have a question on noto though. I don't know how Mugai ryu noto works, but in seitei, MJER guys do MJER-style noto, MSR guys do MSR noto, with relatively little variation from the koryu shoden noto. It's a stylistic difference that's accepted in the seitei kata. Why isn't Mugai ryu's noto used? It sounds like the speed/timing might need to be changed, but what else makes it different that you have to learn an unfamiliar noto to do seitei?

[renfield_kuroda]

Samuel, first thanks -- very helpful!


Originally posted by Ric Flinn
Why isn't Mugai ryu's noto used? It sounds like the speed/timing might need to be changed, but what else makes it different that you have to learn an unfamiliar noto to do seitei?

I was explicitly told that ZNKR noto is different than Mugairyu and doing Mugairyu noto is NOT ZNKR.
Biggest difference is Mugairyu noto saya is vertical, first 1/3 quick, last 2/3 slow.
Also chiburi is very different and no o-chiburi.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

[samuel-t]

Originally posted by Ric Flinn
I don't know how Mugai ryu noto works, but in seitei, MJER guys do MJER-style noto, MSR guys do MSR noto, with relatively little variation from the koryu shoden noto.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between MJER and MSR koryu shoden noto? Aren't they very much the same?


Originally posted by Ric Flinn
It's a stylistic difference that's accepted in the seitei kata.

Not that I actually want to question you, but are you sure about this? I'm asking, because at the forementioned Amsterdam training camp I were at this summer, everybody did ZNKR noto exactly the same (at least it seemed so), regardless if they trained MJER or MSR. :confused:


Originally posted by Ric Flinn
Why isn't Mugai ryu's noto used?

I've learnt that ZNKR is a system of kata used to learn to handle the body and the sword and that everybody are supposed to do the kata exactly the same -- no room for individuality there because individuality is supposed to be explored within a koryu... And there is no use to try to explore individuality within a ryu before one knows the basics of handling a sword. And then, as Mr Renfield Kuroda mentioned, Mugairyu noto is very different from ZNKR, MSR (and I suppose MJER) noto.

On a side note: The 12th ZNKR kata has its origins in Mugairyu, but the noto should still be a ZNKR noto, and not a Mugairyu noto. And the overall timing is different too, or at least that's what I've learnt. :)


/Samuel

[Ric Flinn]

Actually MJER noto and MSR are quite a bit different. MJER uses a "parallel" noto (starts with the sword and saya parallel, both edge up, tsuka facing forward) where MSR uses a "perpendicular" noto (starts with the sword and saya sort of T-shaped in front of you, parallel to the ground). The overall style of noto doesn't change all that much from shoden to chuden, etc, in the respective styles, but the speed and timimg do.

I suspect the noto you were shown for seitei is the MSR style. Lots of ZNKR people are MSR, and I think all of the ZNKR guides and such show MSR-style noto.

I also suspect that the style of noto used in Mugai ryu is closer to MJER; sounds similar to MJER chuden noto to me (an MSR guy, btw, so don't shoot me if I'm way off). But the places I've seen and done seitei, the noto was always done according to the koryu style of the practitioner, like tying the sageo. Everything else was standardized, but even then, different instuctors choose different things to be picky about, and I've seen enough disagreements to know that its not as cut and dried as it's supposed to be.

[samuel-t]

Hmmm. Interesting. And you're right: The noto I've been shown is the MSR style noto. And most ZNKR people here in Sweden seems to be MSR.

I'm an MSR guy too, so don't shoot me either, but Mugairyu noto seems to be sort of a combination of MSR shoden noto (starting close to tsuba) combined with MSR okuden noto (a quick sheathing of 1/3 of the blade, and slow sheathing of the rest of the blade), but with the sword and saya turned 90 degrees to the right. :)

Although I wouldn't actually call it "a combination" (its a very different ryu altogether), other than from the perspective of MSR. I think it is a really cool noto. Actually I think that Mugairyu is a really cool ryu (I've seen all the kata on video), but unfortunately it is unavailable here in Stockholm. So I stick to MSR (which is quite cool too -- especially okuden). At least for the time being. Times may change, though. ;)

I also noticed the MJER style of tying sageo, not only when doing MJER kata, but also during ZNKR, at the camp. Guess ZNKR isn't that standardized after all...

/Samuel

[Chidokan]

It will be interesting to see how this style develops over the coming years. Bearing in mind there have been several kata added since the original set were published, and it is supposed to be textbook stuff, no doubt they will standardise on everything in time to come...dont forget its not the done thing to be different in Japan...;)

Tim Hamilton

[renfield_kuroda]

Originally posted by samuel-t
Actually I think that Mugairyu is a really cool ryu (I've seen all the kata on video), but unfortunately it is unavailable here in Stockholm.

I wasn't going to mention anything until it's more official, but we're printing up English translations to go with the Japanese kata introductory videos we have, and we will soon make them available to any and all, with the long term goal of establishing instruction all over the globe.

Will post when more details are available, but there are some beta-testers on this forum already who can comment on the videos and text.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

[samuel-t]

I've read about that here. The japanese Mugairyu manual. I'm really looking forward to it. I know that I will buy two copies right away. :D

/Samuel

[renfield_kuroda]

Glad to hear that! Will let you know when it's available.

Regards,

renfield kuroda

[hyaku]

I posted in earlier thread that ZNKR seitei is not the same everywhere. I wish it was. I have had to change mine three times.

Hyakutake Colin

[Jack B]

Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
Jack,

Interesting tidbit about using the whistle as a diagnostic to gauge cutting technique. But, wouldn't a blade without bo-hi also make sounds that vary according to movement, speed, etc. that could be used as a diagnostic as well?

Cady

How'd this get into this thread? ;)

Answer is yes, but it's quieter and you have to already have a good stroke before it happens at all. That's another reason to wait a while before getting your shinken.

Jack

[stevemcgee99]

Jack , I was wondering about the hi reply here,too, seemed out of place. But reading the last sentence of your reply, I thought it would be cool if it ended up in the "cheap sword" thread.
I rock climbed for years, the push by beginners in that pursuit was to climb too hard of a route, and especially to lead, which is basically the only dangerous part of the sport. Testing one's skills when the stakes are high (physical in addition to ego injury)without experience is similar to betting it all on a game you don't really know the rules of.
How did I get so high and mighty all of the sudden? I'm at home with the flu!
Anyway, the meat of this thread is educational. I'd like to get this technical in my classes, but that's not the style of Dov-sensei.