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MindBlade
1st December 2002, 09:22
As I was searching the web for a translation of a Ninpo related poem I found this unusual website of a Mr. Butch Johnson.

http://www.kukishin.org/hombu.html

The site is rather unusual because of it's language and blending of concepts. For example, it refers to the Bujinkan as the "Bujin Den". And it also speaks about Amatsu Tatara which is tradition taught by the Genbukan! ...Very unusual no?

Direct quote from the site:

This Web Site is your best source for information concerning the Kukishin Den Ha-No-Kukishin Ryu, direct from Masaaki Hatsumi Soke, head of the Kukishin Den Ha, and Director of the Bujin Den organization.
By the Bujinkan patch and stars it would seem that Mr Johnson is represented as a "13th dan". Does this site legitimately represent the Bujinkan?

Taharka Mena

John Lindsey
1st December 2002, 10:12
Hi,

Hatsumi S. can also claim knowledge of the Amatsu Tatara, but I don't think he is actively stressing it in his teachings like Tanemura S. is.

Butch's website is interesting, but some of it sounds like he has been watching too many Don Angier videos :).

Jim_Jude
1st December 2002, 10:57
Originally posted by John Lindsey
Hi,

Hatsumi S. can also claim knowledge of the Amatsu Tatara, but I don't think he is actively stressing it in his teachings like Tanemura S. is.

Butch's website is interesting, but some of it sounds like he has been watching too many Don Angier videos :).

I believe that right now, Hatsumi-sensei is making the medical aspects of the Amatsu Tatara available to medical professionals w/in the Bujinkan. If they want training in that system, they need to speak to him about it, it isn't something normally covered. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong or the situation has changed.

George Kohler
1st December 2002, 18:22
How about this quote for his website?


Originally from Denali Alaska, Mr. Johnson began his martial arts studies at the age of 6 in Japan under Sato Toyama, Soke, of Toyama Ryu Jujutsu.

Sato Toyama sounds like 2 last names.

George Kohler
1st December 2002, 18:52
Originally posted by MindBlade
And it also speaks about Amatsu Tatara which is tradition taught by the Genbukan! ...Very unusual no?

I couldn't find any references to the Genbukan on all web pages.

MindBlade
1st December 2002, 20:38
Hatsumi S. can also claim knowledge of the Amatsu Tatara, but I don't think he is actively stressing it in his teachings like Tanemura S. is.

Thanks for the clarification.

Taharka Mena

Oni
1st December 2002, 21:19
Originally posted by MindBlade

By the Bujinkan patch and stars it would seem that Mr Johnson is represented as a "13th dan". Does this site legitimately represent the Bujinkan?

Taharka Mena

Thats one of the interesting thing about the Bujinkan. There is no 'one' representation. This page DOES represent one training group under one American Shidoshi. Reading through their 'rules' and so forth it in no way represents most of the schools I have visited or trained in...including the training I did in Japan. Nothing wrong with that...it seems that Mr. Johnson wishes to have a very formal school. To each his own. I have seen varying degrees of formality at the various schools I have been to; most being pretty informal. I prefer somewhat of an in-between area myself.

egeneto
2nd December 2002, 05:46
"His origins have been clouded in mystery... some tales say that he is in reality a shape shifter. Another story claims that he is a shaman. For the record allow me to state that both are true... He was born on 16, December 1947 CE on the morning side of Denali Mountain in the great state of Alaska. His given name is Butch Grim Jaws Johnson but the indigenous people call him the Great Walking Bear.

HEIGHT: 5'8
WEIGHT: 240 pounds of solid titanium
EYES: Brown
WEAPONS: Battle Hammer, Machete, Bayonet, Remington 700 Sniper Rifle, M-60 Machine-gun, 10mm Pistol, WP Grenades, or any weapon that is in the hands of the opposition.
FAVOURITE COLOUR: Blood Red
OCCUPATION: Peacemaker (Note: Even if it means the total destruction of every living thing on the planet.)
FAVOURITE FOODS: Mutant Ninja Turtle Chowder"

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA<breath>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

sincerely,
Jamie Weakley
Houston,Texas

shinbushi
2nd December 2002, 20:06
Originally posted by MindBlade
As I was searching the web for a translation of a Ninpo related poem I found this unusual website of a Mr. Butch Johnson.

http://www.kukishin.org/hombu.html

For example, it refers to the Bujinkan as the "Bujin Den".
The Bujinden is the name of our Hombu Palace of the Divine Warrior.

MindBlade
2nd December 2002, 21:52
I see. Thanks!

Teharka Mena

Jim_Jude
3rd December 2002, 15:34
Why do people think that they can train with Hatsumi-sensei for ten years & then start their own "art", or that they can specialize in some select Ryu-ha that was covered maybe twice in a decade?

I don't understand!!! :cry:

michaelCODY
3rd December 2002, 18:21
Well, Hatsumi sensei does say, "After 10 years of training, it is yours." I suppose what you do after that is up to the individual. Me, I would continue "polishing" myself opposed to showing others how sharp I could be.

Tamdhu
3rd December 2002, 18:41
I wondered that too. I do remember hearing/seeing the idea/quote that after the first ten years of training, you should know whether ninpo is for you or not, in the sense of "Am I getting anywhere with this or should I let it go and take up basket-weaving instead?"

I have a feeling that might be the quote in question which led to the confusion that after ten years "It's yours". "It's for you" would be more appropriate! I believe it's from Hatsumi Soke's 'Ninpo - Wisdom for Life' book.

I keep that question in mind always as my first ten years of training draws closer. In a few years I'll either 'gambatte' or make a clean break and never look back. We'll see!

pete lohstroh
3rd December 2002, 19:42
According to his own schedule, Mr. Johnson is in Japan at Daikomyosai training. Where, exactly, does he indicate a split from the Bujinkan and from Sensei?

bencole
3rd December 2002, 20:48
Originally posted by Tamdhu
I have a feeling that might be the quote in question which led to the confusion that after ten years "It's yours". "It's for you" would be more appropriate! I believe it's from Hatsumi Soke's 'Ninpo - Wisdom for Life' book.

This "ten years" quote has been misinterpreted, imo.

In "Ninpo--Wisdom for Life," Hatsumi-sensei explains that we all hit plateaus in our training. He states, if memory serves, that if you hit a plateau, you should "keep going" because it will lead to a breakthrough. If, however, after ten years of trying but still not overcoming that plateau, he suggests rethinking things. :D Perhaps this Budo is not for you.

At least that is what I took out of that particular paragraph.

It DEFINITELY had nothing to do with "make up your own art after ten years."

-ben

Jim_Jude
3rd December 2002, 22:54
Sound like a classic case of selective hearing to me. Too bad.

Kamiyama
4th December 2002, 10:27
Much has been said about Master Butch Johnson. I believe I can clear up a few things about him. I was his senior and his teacher for four years. In the Bujinkan and in my personal system Art of Combat. You can see many photos of him on my web site from these times-dates.

Web site statement, Johnson began his martial arts studies at the age of 6 in Japan under Sato Toyama, Soke, of Toyama Ryu Jujutsu.

Kamiyama, this is not the statement he filled out when he began his training with me. I have his original membership sheet, which Master Johnson signed. When he came to me he had only trained in taichi at a rec center and jujutsu for a few months in his youth. Master Johnson said he only traveled through Japan in the US ARMY. From what I remember and have video tapes of him, his movement was beginner level with no experience at all in any martial arts training. But this is only my point of view.

Web site statement, 1978, he was introduced to his only true master Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi the Grandmaster of nine arcane Japanese martial art traditions.

Kamiyama, the first time he met Hatsumi sensei was at the Texas Taikai in 1992. This was when he was a student of my dojo. He was a green belt at this time, 1st grade. His membership statements were he had not ever had any training in the Bujinkan arts from anyone else when he first came to me to train. He was under Eddie Moore, Andre Vaguine, Don Smith, Larry Graham and Andrew Tate at my dojo. Master Butch Johnson got his shodan from me in my dojo system in 12 of 1992. And a nidan soon after because I was not going to teach ninjutsu publicly and wanted him to have a honorary higher ranking level because of his military background.

Web site statement, Mr. Johnson was duly authorized to open a branch school in 1992 by Hatsumi Masaaki Soke. He and his students participate in many national and international Bujin Den Tai Kai events.

Kamiyama, this is not true because he was a student of my dojo at this time and for two years after this date, which are stated. I believe the facts are very misleading.

I don’t wish to disprove Master Butch Johnson’s claims or his shocking skill level. I just believe if his statements on his web site about honor and integrity are a correct view of his dojo he should follow them.
Yes, the Bujinkan is a large and at times complete vortex of misleading statements. But come on. Let’s get a grip.

(I have complete video tape and photos to back up what I’m saying when it comes to the statements I’ve made here)

And by the way, what happen to the old Dragon web site ?
Peace,

Kamiyama, Ralph Severe

Jim_Jude
4th December 2002, 19:22
Shades of Excitement! Some Drama!!!

Everyone come quick!

Tamdhu
4th December 2002, 19:45
I stagger before the echoing thunder of a seek, slam, submit applied in no uncertain terms...

In other words, whoa!

IKE
5th December 2002, 08:11
Shapeshifter Hmm?

Isnt this the gentleman that Soke said through Ben Jones (at the '99 or 2000 tai kai, I believe it was '99) that he was the first person that he met and trained with in america?? And then had him....demo..a couple of techniques?

Tamdhu
5th December 2002, 15:58
I don't think so. I remember that man being pulled from the audience, wheras I believe the instructor in question was on stage at the time with the tenth dans. I could be wrong.

Onmitsu
5th December 2002, 18:45
According to his own first hand account, Butch Johnson claims to have met Hatsumi Masaaki S. at an Enbu he was giving at the US embassy.
He claims to have thrashed several of the Shihan until Hatsumi s. got a hold of him. He relates how The grandmaster said "Here comes Godzilla to destroy Tokyo!". For many years he went by the nickname of 'Godzilla'. He said he realized that the Shihan were taking it easy on him for the sake of the embassy and based on the fact that he was a veteran in the armed forces. Mr. Johnson also went on to say that at that time he was already a black belt in Koga ryu Ninjutsu under Seiko Fujita and that he had also recieved exstensive training in Jujutsu from his own father.
I find it interesting that his web site reflects a different bio than was personaly told to me. Could this be because the site was written by one of his senior students? Hmmm..
Mr. Johnson did admit that he had trained under Mr. Ralph Severe (Kamiyama) but I got the impression that their relationship wasn't always 'rosey'. I first met Mr. Johnson at a Kamiyama Enbu in the early '90's. My first impression was that he was either the head of a biker gang or an ex-truck driver. He was a pretty scary looking dude in person. (LOL!) Mr. Johnson also related to me that he was in in the Special Forces and served in Viet Nam. According to him his flashbacks have diminished greatly and his journey on the Martial path has served him well in the preservation of his health and sanity. :)

Kamiyama
5th December 2002, 19:21
Strange, Master Butch Johnson's history is a complete vortex of misleading and confusing information.
I believe it would be very easy to get his military record. I have the date when he served in the US military from his membership form he signed. When did he say he was in Japan doing his Godzilla crushing techniques? And I believe this would be very easy for him to clear up as well.
Also during the 2000 Taikai he was on stage with the mega dans and made a comment about being in a war in the middle east as well. But that was the time he was training with me.
And if the web site is written by one of his students then why has he let it be so misleading?
As for him being a black belt in Koga ryu. Well I'm sure he is. I'm sure he has many black belts and training he has not told us about. Secrets.. many secrets..

kamiyama, ralph severe

Onmitsu
5th December 2002, 22:47
Kamiyama,
Thank you,
...very curious indeed.