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Rodgers
5th December 2002, 14:15
Hello,
I get the impression from a lot of people that Hatsumi-sensei's waza are difficult to follow. Why do you find them so?

How many times does he show a particular waza before sending you off to practice? How many movements are in the average waza? How quickly does he perform them? How many waza does he demonstrate in a class (On average)?

-Benjamin Rodgers

Rokushakubo
5th December 2002, 14:39
I'm certainly no expert since the only time I've ever seen Hatsumi in action is at the 1995 UK Tai Kai, but I have just finished reading "Understand? Good. Play!" by Hatsumi & Ben Cole, and that gives plenty of insight into why he runs through the techniques so quickly - he's not teaching techniques, he's teaching flow. He's teaching us to be natural. If you stop to think about applying a technique in a fight, you're dead. That's why I think he runs through things quickly. My recollection of that Tai Kai was that things happened very quickly. He got some Shihan up to demonstrate a technique a few times, then did a few variations on it and let us play around with them. But we only got a few minutes on each technique.

I didn't understand this at all at the time - I was merely a 7th kyu. Now I've risen to the heights of 6th kyu, I understand a lot more! :D

(Yes, it's true - I got my 6th kyu in September 1996 and I am currently in the middle of two grading weeks in my club in which I hope to get my 5th kyu! It's not that I'm that bad - I've only just got back into training earlier this year after four years out! But since returning, I have read a lot more about training in the Bujinkan and I understand a lot of the principles a heck of a lot better than back then!)

The Tengu
5th December 2002, 14:59
I suggest that if you are a very green beginner attending a Tai Kai or similar event, that you try to stick to the base kata shown by the shihan during training. You will have plenty of time to work on henka later (and see Soke on the video), but you should learn the kata first.

If you are not familiar with the base kata in the first place, you should focus on learning it before you start messing with henka.

Bradenn
5th December 2002, 15:07
Originally posted by Rokushakubo
he's not teaching techniques, he's teaching flow. He's teaching us to be natural.

There is a time for learning techniques and a time for learning flow.

If Takamatsu and the previous generations had only taught flow and not taught techniques, how did the schools survive for so long?

Good boxers flow. So do the Gracies. Bruce Lee did and so do lots of JKD people. And the Systema bunch definitely flow. So what is the difference between them and Bujinkan?

The Tengu
5th December 2002, 15:29
Originally posted by Bradenn
There is a time for learning techniques and a time for learning flow.

If Takamatsu and the previous generations had only taught flow and not taught techniques, how did the schools survive for so long?

Good boxers flow. So do the Gracies. Bruce Lee did and so do lots of JKD people. And the Systema bunch definitely flow. So what is the difference between them and Bujinkan? The shihan and shidoshi whom are our instructors are supposed to be teaching the basic techniques of the art. It's not Soke's job to teach the kihon happo and sanshin no kata to us. And by us I mean shoden level and below.

Chuden and above are supposed to already understand the basics and convey those basics to us, their students. That's how things are set up to work.

Were you implying that the Bujinkan doesn't flow like other martial arts do?

Rokushakubo
5th December 2002, 15:33
Soke also says in the book that he teaches 5th dan and above. By 5th dan, you should know enough about technique to throw them out of the window.

Same goes for the Tai Kai. He's effectively teaching the higher ranked students there, so that they can go back and teach their students, etc...

I agree that there is a time for learning techniques. When you are starting out in training, you have to learn techniques before you can learn to not use them, otherwise what's the point of training?

Bradenn
5th December 2002, 16:58
Originally posted by The Tengu

Were you implying that the Bujinkan doesn't flow like other martial arts do?

Nope. Just saying that flow is not the only thing to look at.
e.g. what makes Gyokko Ryu different from Koto Ryu? If you are equally as flowing when doing each school, what is the difference?

In other words, what makes a Ryu a Ryu?

paolo_italy
5th December 2002, 17:34
My two pennies (pls notice double n)...

As far as I know, at the beginning was that within 4th dan one should master the ten chi jin ryaku no maki, which also contains, in the jin scroll, samples from at least 6 of the 9 schools. If i'm correct, until 5th dan one is _mainly_ focused on the "external" aspects... After the godan test it seems that the path goes much more beyond the "physical" side of the stuff...

Concerning the Ryuha, it's a difficult matter. Someone says that we are studying "bujinkan" style of doing ryuha katas, others that we study the gokui of each ryuha in order to apply different feelings of doing techniques... I don't know: IMHO it's mostly up to the shihan you are studying with...

I merely summarize, rodgers, that the most important thing is that bujinkan is very different around the world (even when the core is the same) and the approach of both student and teacher is completely different from other MA's.

hope it helps.

Marc Renouf
5th December 2002, 18:49
People have offered some interesting insights, but no one has really come out and answered the actual questions yet. So here goes:

"How many times does he show a particular waza before sending you off to practice?"

He typically shows a particular technique once. Once. Even if he does it more than once before telling people to play with it, it will almost always be subtly different the second time around. I think this is for the simple reason that the situation has changed slightly - the distance may be a little different, the attacker may move with different timing, or whatever.

"How many movements are in the average waza?"

How many are there, or how many do I see? Soke's movements are incredibly subtle, and at the speed he's deomnstrating it's often very difficult to parse what's going on. I find myself catching the footwork but missing the spine twist, or catching the spine twist but missing what he's doing with his hands, or catching what he's doing with his hands but missing his timing.

"How quickly does he perform them?"

This varies. Not so much full speed, but quickly. Sometimes he'll stop in the middle of a technique to illustrate some point or other, but for the most part things are done at a pretty good clip.

"How many waza does he demonstrate in a class (On average)?"

Tough to say. Sometimes he flies through them like a man possessed, sometimes he slows down and pays more attention to detail. At the hombu or Ayase training he'll easily go through 20 techniques or variations in an evening. Sometimes he's going through them quickly enough that you and your partner will each only get a chance to try a technique once before he's moving on to something else.

"I get the impression from a lot of people that Hatsumi-sensei's waza are difficult to follow. Why do you find them so?"

Why do I find them so? In addition to the tempo of class and the difficulty of trying to understand the totality of a technique there's the fact that quite often you can't actually see what he's doing. You can sometimes see the effect on his uke (like a face contorted into a rictus of pain). You know that he's causing pain, but you can't see how. Or you can tell the uke is off balance, but you can't see how he got that way. Unless you're lucky enough to be in a position to see some subtle thing that's not blocked by either his or the uke's body, you'll miss it. And the subtle things are quite often the most important, the things that make the technique actually work. There are times when the uke is the only one who even has a clue as to what's going on.

In my opinion, this is why it's so hard to capture the techniques on video. Yes, video allows you to see the gross mechanics, but so much stuff is so subtle or easily hidden that it's difficult to tell what's really going on. I've lost count of the number of times I've been doing a technique that soke has shown and thinking I'm doing it more or less correctly, only to have Noguchi-sensei or Nagato-sensei actually do the technique to me and show me just how much I was missing.

The other observation I've made is that (again in my opinion) soke isn't demonstrating technique so much as principle. Even demonstrating widely different henka he manages to use the same principles. A lot of people look at all the different variations that he's doing and think to themselves, "well, hey, whatever works!" They then proceed to go off on all sorts of tangents and do techniques that aren't even remotely close to the principle soke has illustrated.

The trick is figuring out what the principle is and how it applies to all the henka. At this point in my training I'm not free-thinking enough to be able to do that kind of principled variation on the fly, but I can sometimes see it.

It's frustrating, but I guess that's why people always say "gambatte."

Jim_Jude
5th December 2002, 22:39
It seems like people want to flow immediately, but like everything else in the world that can flow, you need a container to hold it or it just flows down the drain. You need to build your container first. A cup of water w/o a cup to hold it is just a puddle, not worth @#$!, except maybe to a frog.
The more flow you got, the bigger container you need. Or the stronger container. You can compress alot of "flow" into a steel tank. Or you can pour an ocean into an ocean bed with a nice beach rim.
I think that's why the Kihon Happo are what they are. If you look at the techniques, they pretty much contain every way that you could manipulate an attacker's arm joints. You may create some henka later, but the attack to the joint will be the same as with the Kihon. That's how henka flow naturally, you don't force a waza, you know how the waza works on the Uke, so you can apply it from another angle, with the other hand or w/o hands.
Hell, look at the popular flying armbars & guillotine chokes. You need to understand the basic mechanics of a choke before you can apply it with an unlikely limb/tool. That's why you drill the basics.
I remember one time at Hombu, Nagato-sensei jumped on everyone because they weren't getting what Soke was doing. He said "It's rude to make Soke demonstrate more than once or twice!!! Now pay attention!" Really drove home the point that Soke doesn't teach technique, he's trying to transmit his level of flowing. But w/o your own technical base to catch the flow he's pouring out, you're just making a mess on the floor.

MindBlade
6th December 2002, 04:14
But w/o your own technical base to catch the flow he's pouring out, you're just making a mess on the floor.

Disclaimer: This is A Beginners Opinion

I think that Jim has made an oft overlooked (in some dojo), subtle and most excellent point. I have heard many practitioners speak heartily of the great and awesome importance of flow. True, the proper flow of timing, distancing, force, softness, breath, rythmn, mindset, and transition all in coordination is a most wonderful thing to behold. But as Jim points out so well, before approaching this flow, I believe that one needs the critical foundation in the fundamentals. And that these fundamentals must trained until they are second nature.

However, there are many dojos that don't place much emphasis at all on instilling the fundamentals. I think that this is quite unfortunate. I believe that "flow" is when all the pieces come together just right but to get there you first need the fundamental pieces.

This Has Been A Beginners Opinion ;)

Taharka Mena

Kamiyama
6th December 2002, 06:25
Please don't take this out of context.

*Soke also says in the book that he teaches 5th dan and above. By 5th dan, you should know enough about technique to throw them out of the window.

Kamiyama, I disagree. Hatsumi sensei is always doing this and that. I don’t believe he can say he is teaching godan and above when 98% of this level can’t do the basic kihon correctly. And by the way what is correctly?
And what is throwing the technique out the window mean?
Knowing is not really meaning being able to apply the technique does it?
I believe the training of any level should be sweaty and aerobic. It doesn’t have to be mystical or high level. Endurance is the key. I believe if anything he, Hatsumi sensei, is teaching endurance. This should not be thrown out the window at any stage of training.

*Same goes for the Tai Kai. He's effectively teaching the higher ranked students there, so that they can go back and teach their students, etc...

Kamiyama, I disagree. I believe he is there to cash in and have a good time.
I have not seen any special or high level techniques at the past taikai myself.
What I saw was some friends playing around at doing almost nothing.
The same ryuha he has shown on stage has been on his tapes and others tapes, shown by Manaka Sensei, Mark Obrian, Tanamura Sensei and others. Nothing special other than him being special.
I believe you might want to believe he is doing something special. This way you can justify the Taikai.

If the statement of him only teaching higher level students at the Taikai is true then why are all the lower ranked people going?

Just a point of view or another point of view.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Bradenn
9th December 2002, 14:40
Originally posted by Marc Renouf

"How many times does he show a particular waza before sending you off to practice?"

He typically shows a particular technique once. Once.

[SNIP]

Sometimes he's going through them quickly enough that you and your partner will each only get a chance to try a technique once before he's moving on to something else.




And then wonders why people are attracted to the Jinenkan:D

Jim_Jude
9th December 2002, 16:09
Originally posted by Kamiyama
Please don't take this out of context.
...I disagree. I believe he is there to cash in and have a good time.
I have not seen any special or high level techniques at the past taikai myself.
What I saw was some friends playing around at doing almost nothing.
The same ryuha he has shown on stage has been on his tapes and others tapes, shown by Manaka Sensei, Mark Obrian, Tanamura Sensei and others. Nothing special other than him being special...
Just a point of view or another point of view.


If that is the case, why did you go to TaiKai, Ralph?

PS: isn't that QUOTE function wonderful, guys?

MindBlade
9th December 2002, 16:34
Hello Mr. Mueller,

In all due respest, how can it be said that Hatsumi Sensei doesn't care about attraction to the Jinenkan but then it is said in other threads that he forbids cross training in the Jinenkan?

Taharka Mena

Jim_Jude
9th December 2002, 16:51
There is a time & place for form, and a time & place for flow. The trick for the average Budoka is to find these for himself, & not let his ego get away from him.
I think everyone should just worry about their own training & quit worrying about others. There are plenty of shihan out there, just like Tanemura-sensei or Manaka-sensei who can teach you structured waza, still within the Bujinkan, just as skilled, that can teach technique. I don't think that everyone should train with Hatsumi-sensei when just starting out. I know many people who agree with me.

Kamiyama
9th December 2002, 19:00
If that is the case, why did you go to TaiKai, Ralph?

kamiyama, To see friends,all in one place... and It was a special TAIKI for me and the wonderful Texico guys.


kamiyama, ralph severe

Jim_Jude
9th December 2002, 22:54
Originally posted by Kamiyama
If that is the case, why did you go to TaiKai, Ralph?

kamiyama, To see friends,all in one place... and It was a special TAIKI for me and the wonderful Texico guys.


kamiyama, ralph severe

What was so special about it?

Kamiyama
10th December 2002, 02:29
What was so special about it?

Mr Martin, Mr Glenn and Mr Dick put it on....what else can be said..?

It was very nice.. a warm and friendly TAIKAI...

kamiyama, ralph severe

DWeidman
11th December 2002, 20:21
Originally posted by paolo_italy
My two pennies (pls notice double n)...

As far as I know, at the beginning was that within 4th dan one should master the ten chi jin ryaku no maki....

Not that I disagree completely - but ***Master*** the TenChiJin Ryaku no Maki? Damn...

LOL :-D

Still trying to *Master* UkeNagashi (and other 9th Kyu material),

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo
www.sandiegobujinkan.com

Kamiyama
11th December 2002, 22:12
I believe another way of saying 'master' is to work it till it's yours....

The tenchijin no maki is a VERY basic outline. Should take about one year to 'master' it.

kamiyama, ralph severe

DWeidman
12th December 2002, 01:59
Originally posted by Kamiyama
I believe another way of saying 'master' is to work it till it's yours....

The tenchijin no maki is a VERY basic outline. Should take about one year to 'master' it.

kamiyama, ralph severe

LOL -

Either that is a pathetically ignorant statement - or I agree with you. Maybe if you trained a year's worth of training (8760 hours) on just the TenChiJin you might be able to claim to have it as *yours*...

Of course - maybe I have higher standards as to what "Mastering" something is - and a poor version of something that I can force and make "work" isn't up to par for me.

On second thought, maybe you are right. I could do everything in the TCJ poorly in a year (example: what?!? - - *my* way is supposed to have huge openings and use a lot of strength...).

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo
http://www.sandiegobujinkan.com

Kamiyama
12th December 2002, 05:41
Why would you feel this simple outline would take more than a year?



kamiyama, ralph severe

DWeidman
12th December 2002, 08:27
Originally posted by Kamiyama
Why would you feel this simple outline would take more than a year?

kamiyama, ralph severe

Hm. Well - lets start with some simple math. There are approx 200 items in the TCJ. Assuming 52 weeks in a year - 3 classes a week - puts you at over one tech. per class. This is fine - and works well for the different fists (for example). However, the Kata in the Jin Ryaku no Maki are hardly something that is going to be picked up as quickly (single class?).

If you were already proficient in the Bujinkan - it would be easier. I dare say the number of people who can claim to master a technique (or make it theirs) after a single class... well - most of them have the funny colored patch (and a good number of them probably wouldn't claim that as well). And the number of them who can remember what they did a year ago and still claim mastery over it ... well? I am sure you remember everything you do and can recall it at will?

Again - this assumes you only visit the items a couple times during the year - but again - it is such a BASIC outline - who around here doesn't remember Musan, Chingan, Amado Nage, Ransetsu to Soto, and Doku Kokeshi. Right?

Of course the TCJ is the Instructors Guide book - the book that defines what you are supposed to know by the time you reach Godan. So everyone should be able to reach Godan after a year - correct? Isn't that right Ralph?

Of course... like I said earlier - if you just wanted to say you did them all and you could do them all poorly after reading someone else's notes about it... then you are probably right.

Ciao.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo
http://www.sandiegobujinkan.com

Dave Pawson
12th December 2002, 10:00
Daniel

Got to agree with you. We hold a Dan class about every 6 weeks for a 4 - 5 hour class for those interested in England.

We have bee going for about a year, and have just got to the end of Ten Ryaku No Maki. Next up for the new year a couple of sessions to review before moving on.

Now bear in mind we are all Dan grades, and most have been around a while, I started 1984, so have see the techniques and can do them, however as you state each individuals grasp of mastery is different.

Basic's, basic's and more basic's, make the more complex easier in the long run. Just my 2 cents worth of input.

For information all my students work on the Ten Chi Jin and can do the majority of techniques in a fasion, i.e. read and do, they do not at this stage however have them internalised for the nuances (sp)

Kamiyama
12th December 2002, 10:27
Of course the TCJ is the Instructors Guide book - the book that defines what you are supposed to know by the time you reach Godan. So everyone should be able to reach Godan after a year - correct? Isn't that right Ralph?

Kamiyama, Well if this is the guidebook for trainers and if you would call someone who knows it a godan, I don’t believe that is very difficult at all. I would expect someone at shodan to know and understand this guidebook (and much more). I started the study of this booklet in 1985. It was of course very confusing to me. But with the information today I can’t see it being confusing at all to a beginner. If so that’s ok. It’s just a journey anyway. It means nothing in the end.
The booklet is so incomplete. It does not cover the basis of taijutsu as it should. It is only a theme of the Bujinkan. I feel to truly get anything out of this booklet you must begin with a booklet of your own. Something that would cover how to make a fist, what part of the body to hit with, how to hit, knees, elbows, kicks, strikes, defense and offense, timing drills, recovery drills, etc. more or less it’s outdated anyway, but I want say that out loud. And where is the weaponry?
If this is the ‘way’ for you or anyone else, hey that’s ok by me. This is why I looked elsewhere to fine the basic understanding that wasn’t written in this booklet.
And we have to get back to the statement you made here…. “the book that defines what you are supposed to know by the time you reach Godan”. This could be a booklet in itself, LOL….

Hey just my point of view.

kamiyama, ralph severe

DWeidman
12th December 2002, 18:46
Originally posted by Kamiyama
The booklet is so incomplete. It does not cover the basis of taijutsu as it should. It is only a theme of the Bujinkan. I feel to truly get anything out of this booklet you must begin with a booklet of your own. Something that would cover how to make a fist, what part of the body to hit with, how to hit, knees, elbows, kicks, strikes, defense and offense, timing drills, recovery drills, etc. more or less it’s outdated anyway, but I want say that out loud. And where is the weaponry?

Hey just my point of view.

kamiyama, ralph severe

Maybe this is where we are both different. When I see something on the TCJ that says "FudoKen" - I assume it means I need to know how to make a fist. I also assume it means I know how to use it - how to hit. And if I know how to hit - then I understand both the Defensive and Offensive sides to it - and how to use my body to generate power to strike with. I should also know where it is appropriate to use Fudoken and where other "fists" are more appropriate.

I don't treat the TCJ like a laundry list. There is a section on Mutodori in the Jin RnM. If you want to test your theory - I will take any one of your first year students and run them through that section.

By the way - it isn't my statement about the TCJ being the guidebook for Godan. Someone correct me if I am wrong - but that was the "purpose" of the TCJ - the reason Soke gave us all the Purple book.

Anywho - I am not really interested in arguing this much longer. If you can get your students through it all in a year - good for you. I, for one, still don't like Ganseki Nage (Kihon Happo). Until I can that throw to be effortless and accurate each and every time, I still don't feel like I *have* it. Can I make it work?!? - Of course. But I hold myself to a slightly higher standard. Just "making it work" isn't good enough.

If a technique doesn't work for me - it isn't that the technique is outdated or crap - it is that I need to work harder so I can get it to work. And I don't use "nagare" as an excuse for poor execution or understanding.

To each their own. Just my point of view.

-Daniel Weidman
San Diego Bujinkan TenChiJin Dojo
http://www.sandiegobujinkan.com

kimq
12th December 2002, 20:06
I would think that for one to learn the TCJ is an individual thing. The more quality training you put in, the shorter the learning curve. If you train infrequently or without proper mindset, the curve will expand.

Putting a timeframe prediction doesn't seem to fit. Some people learn/are more gifted than others. These are all factors in the bottom line.

Kamiyama
12th December 2002, 23:23
Very good point. To each their own.

kamiyama, ralph severe