Bujinkan schools - hypothetical

[Bradenn]

I often hear/read that techniques and even the individual ryu-ha are not important. Here's a hypothetical question:

If Takamatsu-sensei had not taught Hatsumi-sensei the 9 schools that we know of (Togakure, Gyokko, Koto etc.) but had instead taught him

Shotokan Karate,
Wing Chun,
Tenshin shinyu ryu Jujutsu,
Kyokushin Karate,
Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu,
Koga ryu ninjutsu (if it existed!),
Escrima,
Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu
and Gracie Jujutsu,

would Hatsumi be where he is today? Would he move in the same way or be as incredible an artist? Would the Bujinkan be where it is today?

If it really is all about flow and feeling then I don't imagine Hatsumi-sensei would be any different to what he is today. If techniques really don't matter then he should have been as good regardless of what arts he learned from Takamatsu.

I know it's purely hypoethical and speculation, but what do others think?

[Bradenn]

It's hypothetical!
How the hell did that come out as hypoethical?

[Rokushakubo]

I think it was mentioned elsewhere in this forum that Soke Hatsumi does not teach techniques (which is left to Shihan and Shidoshi), but he teaches "principles" and "flow".

You use the techniques to learn principles, then once you have mastered the principles, you no longer need the techniques and can begin to work on flow. It's kinda like learning to ride a bike. At first, you need stabilisers (techniques) to learn the principles (pedalling, steering, correct balancing, etc...). Once you've mastered those principles, you can dispose of the stabilisers. Before too long, you can apply those principles almost sub-consciously (flow).

So the question is, would the techniques from those arts you listed teach the principles which make Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu so effective?

[fifthchamber]

Hi Bradenn..
I think that Hatsumi-S. 'flows' in the way he does BECAUSE of the training he recieved from Takamatsu-S...If it had not been those 9 Ryuha then he would (I guess..) 'flow' in a different way that was taught by which-ever Ryu replaced them.
I don't think that this 'flow' was inherent in him...I would offer that his experiences in his life have made the Bujinkan what it is today. But it was the teachings of Takamatsu-S. that started the evolution off...If it had been different then the Bujinkan would not be as it is today....And Hatsumi-S. would move with different patterns picked up in the years of his training..(In whatever art...)
This would mean that if he had learnt Karate and Capoeira he would use those arts as a basis for his movement (It would be odd perhaps but the idea is the same..).
I would also suggest that Takamatsu Sensei knew that those particular 9 Ryuha would result in all that Hatsumi-S. is today...In other words that Togakure Ryu would teach so and so, while Takagi Yoshin Ryu taught another element...The total 9 would be the Bujinkan as it is.
Look at it this way...Would I say that MY flow will stay the same as I learn an art or can I anticipate that that art will influence my way of thinking, moving, fighting, etc when it finally 'seeps into me'? We are not naturally what we are after this process and to second guess it all is almost an impossibility....Would Tyson have won against Douglas if he HAD taken longer lessons with Shioda-S.? Who knows?
Pretty good question though...
I hope this helps someone...:o
Abayo

[Tamdhu]

I think one needs to learn the rules before they can productively be broken or thrown away.

That said, the 'rules' one chooses to persue and learn have a tremendous influence on what remains once those rules are internalized and transcended, as does the nature of the learner, and the nature of the 'rule-set' in question as it relates to other rule-sets.

In other words, I have no idea!

Interesting question, though.

[Mountain Kusa]

I have been Training about 4.5 years total. I have taken My training slowly not trying to get somewhere in any hurry since ninpo for me is a way of life and a lifelong journey. To overcome myself first.

I Have a 3rd kyu certificate. I have been training on Tenchijin, sanshin, Kihon, da dada dada. I have also been exposed to Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Togakure ryu, Kukishinden ryu & possibly Gyokushin Ryu at the 2002 taikai in collinsville illinois. (I was told i was & even what By some shidoshi) However i have noticed i will be performing a thing and in some cases my body and move may start with the attitude of koto, then an aspect of gyokko, then takagi and soforth. It is getting all mixed up. But i dont think about it. "Ok I am going to do x kata now" I think a person needs to train in the kata and allow your body to absorb the movement on its own. Motor memory. This is for me feeling at my level. How does it feel, how does my uke feel, what is going through his mind. Feeling, it is the most important, But to get there i believe a person needs exposed to the kata.

My two cents

:nin: