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kenshorin
6th December 2002, 16:58
(sorry in advance for the long sometimes rambling post, hope you guys can follow along with the logic or lack thereof. :D )

Recently, I have been doing a lot of contemplating on the traditional karate chudan uke (middle / chest block). The way this block is generally done is from a two-arm crossed position at the beginning, and leading out to an extension of one hand out with the elbow set ahead of the floating ribs. I'll go along with that as the basis of this thought. Its what the block does in between that I am having trouble with. My approach on how I've been looking at this block is in two different ways, using the lower arm, and using more of a "smashing" block with the hand. I will mostly observe the arm block in this post to conserve space and make it manageable.

Generally speaking, it would make sense to me that for the most strength in your block (strength from here on meaning skeletally so your arm won't break, not muscular strength) the impact would need to be distributed across both the radius and the ulna. Examining the cross portion of the block first, it doesn't seem to make any sense to start the cross off with the ulna of both arms facing out and thumbs in. That is just broken arms waiting to happen. So we could approach the cross in two different ways (I'll label these as C#): C1) with the ulna and radius of both arms both facing out (knuckles of fists out); this is the way I was taught to do it back in the day, or C2) with the ulna of the lead hand facing out and rear hand aligned with both bones out, which still would be a relatively weak position considering the ulna of the lead hand is a weak bone, but at least it lacks the clashing of your own bones listed in the first case above.

Now to examine the extended part of the block, there are three basic positions the arm could assume (I'll label these as E#): E1) radius out to the side, fingers of your fist facing in towards you (this is how I was taught "back in the day"); E2) ulna and radius both facing out, knuckles also facing out, thumb facing in; E3) ulna out, knuckles facing up towards you (similar to the open handed blocks that are done frequently in Uechi-ryu). For a strike off to the side, the one that makes the most sense here is once again both the ulna and radius off to the side for maximum impact distribution.

Here's where stuff gets tricky, how to get from point A to point B. Most karate instructors teach that the cross should be done like C1 above and extension ends up at E1 like above. This would require no rotation at all in the hand and arm position, and mostly effort in rotation on the elbow. Hardly an evasive manuever, and puts a lot of stress on both the elbow and radius.

Since I have always observed position E1 for the extended block, another way of reaching this position would be to start from cross C2, catch the strike across the ulna and radius, and allow the hand at that point to turn over, giving some press back toward the opponent and the strike. I like the dynamics on this block, however as mentioned above the starting position C2 is somewhat disadvantageous.

The one I actually found the strongest did not end in that classic E1 position. It starts at the strong C1 position and extends out to an E2 / E3 position. Once again, both bones are out at the cross for a strong position, the arm and fist rotate outwards to catch the strike across the two bones at the E2 position, and then there can be some extra roll to a moderate E3 position to lead the punch in a little further and open up the attacker to a counter. However, I have to hesitate to teach this block, because it doesn't end in the "classic" E1 position, and God forbid another karate person saw our students doing that style in a kata, thereby mangling it. :rolleyes:

The other considerations for position would be if you were doing a locking manuever with the cross portion of the block (like a scizzor smash kinda thing) but thats a discussion for another day.

OK.... now that thats out there, comments? Maybe someone can enlighten me as to how to still work a classic position while still maintaining skeletal integrity, or if you see flaw with any of the above, please comment. I have just been in the process of re-evaluating things I have been doing for years, and looking for other ideas.

X-1 Falcon
6th December 2002, 18:29
We have always done this as a high middle block for head shots.

Generally a middle block would be Yoko-uke (inside middle) and Yoko-uchi (outside middle).

Chudan is also good for those TKD axe kicks, I have found. :)

Tatsu
7th December 2002, 00:16
Using strictly your radius or ulna to take the brunt of impact is risky. The answer for most things usually is somewhere near moderation. Using a 45 degree arm position, vs. a radial only impact or ulna only impact, is ideal. You have to understand, which you probably do, that many of the older ways were changed to a 90 degree angle format, including punching and chambering the knee at 90o, when karate-do was formalized for the Japanese school system. Use of karate as a true self-preservation art was not the aim. It was a means to make kids stronger so that they would be ready to become better Japanese soldiers. Most punches were linear, and blocking hook techs was rarely emphasized.

If you use the 45o method, meaning your forearm and fist are at a relaxed 45o position as opposed to the twisted position of the "classical" karate-do chudan uke, the radius and ulna can share in impact "duty". Deflection as opposed to hard blocking is better for real world application. Also, anatomically (you can test this yourself) structural integrity and strength of the "blocking arm" in the 45o position is much more sound. Have someone push against the blocking hand/wrist in the 90o versions. You will find that the weakest block is this "traditional" karate chudan uke. The ulna forward (@90o) variety is strong, but like you said the ulna is the weaker and smaller of the 2 bones and can be broken easily. The strongest, and this is an anatomical truth, is the arm at a "natural" 45o position.

I don't know if you've ever heard of a "double-bone" block. It can mean using 2 arms to block (ie: use of the radial side wrist bones to contact and trap an extended low front kick), or using your blocks so that the strength of the radial and ulna bones are maximized. As for form, it must follow function and vice-versa. Proper posture, bio-mechanics and technique are crucial to make karate work for real. A lot of these principles have been lost or were never there (in certain systems). It's up to you to experiment with what you know and what you've been taught.

Another overlooked fact of the middle block, is the fact that the elbow can be used to strike and block and that a chudan uke can be used as a block/back-knuckle strike with the fist snapping out as the block is executed. Have a great weekend.

Hope this helps...

kusanku
7th December 2002, 02:28
Catch the incoming attack on the crossed arms at the muscles, not the bones.Forty five or backs of the fists facing opponents is fine, he'll hit at the middle in the outer forearm muscles, whic can take a lot of impact, especially crossed.Can alkso trap an incoming punch here, or strike with hammerfist on top hand of cross, radius in to cut arm, and punch across and down to lower abs or pubes, with lower hand, now lock over with block(hahahahahah) and strike neck with forearm (ulnar area) or head nerves with backfist(drop it down on 'em.'

Was that supposed to be a secret?:D

Tai sabaki to the outside forty five or ninety degrees in natural or cat stance or flat cat, and you wind up with opponent's attack deflected or trapped and countered and you in blind spot able to follow up while opponent can not.Shame about that, tsk tsk.

Way I figure, these are self defense waza, opponent shouldn't attack anyway.

kenshorin
7th December 2002, 09:10
Bryan -

Thanks for the insightful post. Sounds like your thinking is pretty parallel to mine. Just a couple quick comments as a follow-up...

Using strictly your radius or ulna to take the brunt of impact is risky. The answer for most things usually is somewhere near moderation. Using a 45 degree arm position, vs. a radial only impact or ulna only impact, is ideal. You have to understand, which you probably do, that many of the older ways were changed to a 90 degree angle format.

Yes, that is the primary reason for this post. As you mention later, form should follow function, but if people are still being taught the twisted ulna-only or radius-only style block, the form is not necessarily following function. I am looking to begin teaching back to the older method where form DOES follow function, but before modifying or touching anything I want to make sure enough thought and preparation are put into what I am doing, and looking to also gain insight on how, if at all, the 90 degree block may serve a greater purpose than maximizing the surface area.

If you use the 45o method, meaning your forearm and fist are at a relaxed 45o position as opposed to the twisted position of the "classical" karate-do chudan uke, the radius and ulna can share in impact "duty". Deflection as opposed to hard blocking is better for real world application.

Agree wholeheartedly here. However, even on deflections, we would want to make sure that we have the most structurally sound techniques available involved in the deflection as well in case something gets fubared. It is a relatively easy task to engineer what was taught as a block to be an avoidance or deflection; however, just because a deflection is the goal instead of full-brunt impact, doesn't stand as an excuse as to why a substandard technique is passable. (I realize that probably wasn't what you were implying, but it is a good point to add)

Also, anatomically (you can test this yourself) structural integrity and strength of the "blocking arm" in the 45o position is much more sound. Have someone push against the blocking hand/wrist in the 90o versions. You will find that the weakest block is this "traditional" karate chudan uke. The ulna forward (@90o) variety is strong, but like you said the ulna is the weaker and smaller of the 2 bones and can be broken easily. The strongest, and this is an anatomical truth, is the arm at a "natural" 45o position.

Yes, once again that is the whole basis for this post. I guess an alterior motive behind this post was, how do we get back to form following function, instead of some substandard technique?

I don't know if you've ever heard of a "double-bone" block. It can mean using 2 arms to block (ie: use of the radial side wrist bones to contact and trap an extended low front kick)

Yes, and I've actually messed with this one a lot. I prefer to use the inside part of the arm, however, once again trying to maximize the surface area and structural integrity of the contact point rather than focus on the bone.

Another overlooked fact of the middle block, is the fact that the elbow can be used to strike

Actually, one of my favorite block techniques is smashing an elbow down on someone's hand or letting the hand intercept my elbow instead of the intended soft target. The funny looks people make when they get the "yeeee-owch!" :D

kenshorin
7th December 2002, 09:26
Kusanku -

Thanks for you reply, I also wanted to follow-up your post as well.

Catch the incoming attack on the crossed arms at the muscles, not the bones.

This is my goal, I guess I didn't make it clear in the original post with all the talk of bones and whatnot. To catch the strike lower on the arm where there is more meat, and also the bones are thicker is of course the obvious way to go. However, even behind the meat there is bone, and there are several different positions which greatly enhance or deteriorate structural integrity of this bone. Relying on meat alone to do the work is substandard, and as always, we want to strive to a higher standard wherein we are executing the strongest technique possible, in case something goes horribly awry. Yes?

Forty five or backs of the fists facing opponents is fine, he'll hit at the middle in the outer forearm muscles, which can take a lot of impact, especially crossed. Can also trap an incoming punch here

A favorite technique of mine is catching incoming techniques in the meatgrinder of the cross on the block. Some fancy footwork after the trap can usually get an attacker all discombobulated. :p

Tai sabaki to the outside forty five or ninety degrees in natural or cat stance or flat cat, and you wind up with opponent's attack deflected or trapped and countered and you in blind spot able to follow up while opponent can not.

Once again, another favorite of mine. Did you steal my kumite playbook? :D However, as I have said a few times, I don't want to rely on my tai sabaki being better than my opponent's as an excuse to use a substandard technique, hence my inquiry into the greater function of the chudan uke. Thanks for the feedback, I am really getting some good stuff here.

n2shotokai
7th December 2002, 15:48
All great points. Two points come to mind I don't believe have been addressed.

Bone impact. I was taught that most blocks are applied with a last moment wrist twist. I always liked the analogy of an object striking a spinning ball. The object is deflected in another direction. Therefore, the wrist twist deflects the strike in another direction. Thinking back I don't recall getting bruised / banged up using a (inside) middle block unless I made the mistake of applying it to a bo strike.

Two arms. I can hear my first instructor now. "You have two arms, use them both". Some styles use the upper crossed arm only for the purpose of pulling back. I use the upper arm as a primary and the bottom arm as a secondary. The upper arm is a parry that can knock opponents off balance and the bottom arm is backup (for very strong strikes or ooops you missed), or used as a trap etc. etc.

Steve Beale

kusanku
8th December 2002, 17:27
Originally posted by kenshorin
Kusanku -

Thanks for you reply, I also wanted to follow-up your post as well.

[B]Catch the incoming attack on the crossed arms at the muscles, not the bones.

This is my goal, I guess I didn't make it clear in the original post with all the talk of bones and whatnot. To catch the strike lower on the arm where there is more meat, and also the bones are thicker is of course the obvious way to go. However, even behind the meat there is bone, and there are several different positions which greatly enhance or deteriorate structural integrity of this bone. Relying on meat alone to do the work is substandard, and as always, we want to strive to a higher standard wherein we are executing the strongest technique possible, in case something goes horribly awry. Yes?

The bones back the meat. Up to standard.:-)Believe me.

Forty five or backs of the fists facing opponents is fine, he'll hit at the middle in the outer forearm muscles, which can take a lot of impact, especially crossed. Can also trap an incoming punch here


A favorite technique of mine is catching incoming techniques in the meatgrinder of the cross on the block. Some fancy footwork after the trap can usually get an attacker all discombobulated. :p


Yes.
Tai sabaki to the outside forty five or ninety degrees in natural or cat stance or flat cat, and you wind up with opponent's attack deflected or trapped and countered and you in blind spot able to follow up while opponent can not.


Once again, another favorite of mine. Did you steal my kumite playbook? :D

Yes.:D Actually, it is in the secret Manual of Shorin Ryu Nasty stuff that all us instructors have been sworn to say it does not exist. That manual, by the way, does not exist. Many others will say the same.It doesn't, either!




However, as I have said a few times, I don't want to rely on my tai sabaki being better than my opponent's as an excuse to use a substandard technique, hence my inquiry into the greater function of the chudan uke.[quote]

The arms are to be conditioned through two person drills, and used as sai would be used.Ever note the twin sai above the fist on the Matsubayashi ryu emblem? There is a reason for them.

[quote]Thanks for the feedback, I am really getting some good stuff here.

Most wecome.:-)

Tatsu
9th December 2002, 01:27
Originally posted by n2shotokai
All great points. Two points come to mind I don't believe have been addressed.

Bone impact. I was taught that most blocks are applied with a last moment wrist twist.

Two arms. I can hear my first instructor now. "You have two arms, use them both". Some styles use the upper crossed arm only for the purpose of pulling back. I use the upper arm as a primary and the bottom arm as a secondary. The upper arm is a parry that can knock opponents off balance and the bottom arm is backup (for very strong strikes or ooops you missed), or used as a trap etc. etc.

Steve Beale

Yes twisting is also a key. As for 2 arms for every block. Yes, yes and yes!!! This is not emphasized enough nowadays. Matsumura Seito always uses the rear hand as a "spare block". Some of the force of a strike can be lessened by use of a slapping action. The open hand also allows for tuite and controls. Like John and Steve said, trapping and unbalancing is facilitated by this 2 arm philosophy.

2 hands/arms are there so everyone should utilize and maximize this aspect. This post dealt with the inward-outward middle block. The outer-inner variety is a different beast altogether. It truly operates as a limb destruction dealie in many cases. This type of middle block lends itself to the immediated block/strike (ricochet) philosophy vs. the block then strike variety.

It seems we are all on the same page (WOW!). Must be a ShuriTe thing, hahaha! Thanks for the good discussion Ken'. Happy and safe training to all....