PDA

View Full Version : Kata



Paihequan
7th December 2002, 23:43
Without sounding controversial, I'd like propose the question "Are Kata necesssary?" to members. What are the values derived from Kata and what are the disadvantages?

To start the ball rolling:

Forms or Kata are not important at all! Forms can disappear, they can die slowly or quickly like flesh on a decaying body until all that is left is the skeleton. It does not matter. The essence, the inner-features of the art must remain intact.What "Secrets" do the Kata contain that can not be found within technique or a series of technique???

The "Kata Secrets" thing is an amusing bandwagon that a great many have hitched a ride on without fully understnading just where the "Wagon" is headed or for that matter, where its been!

Many talk of these secrets but few can show them or write of them in a convincing manner (I await someone doing just that!).

Keep in mind that application (i.e. essence) came before kata and that kata is made up of application!!! Its very simple. Those who claim to be truly traditional should be teaching in English only, not wearing uniforms or belts, not advertising, not posting on forums and keeping the applications to themselves and a few trusted students.

I await someone's expose on the "Secrets" Kata contain that cannot be found in application of individual technique!!! Kata are great tools to an end but they are not the "be all and end all". Rather they originally served as a modest vehicle via which the arts could be transmitted in a complete manner. They were and are however, made up of fighting applications and it is these upon which the kata rests not the pattern now known as kata. Without the creation of these individual fighting applications then kata would not exist so again I state it is these applications that form to make thge kata that are important and not the whole kata itself. Look at many "traditional" (which are actually modern in time standards) kata of karatedo and one will see endless repitition of movements which by and large act as fillers to the actual applications. It is the "Essence' the original thought, concept, principle that is the real secret of kata, not the kata or the techniques they contain!!!

Without the essence no technique or series of techniques exist and without these no kata is formed.

There really are no techniques in Karate nor should their be. Any move which embodies the essence of the art becomes a kata in the original sense.

Victor
8th December 2002, 03:15
Ron,

I beg to differ with you.

Kata contain a great secret, not found in the indivdiual technique. Their study and practice are a tool to develop the energy that is expressed in the component techniques.

Now secret is a troubling word to many, but it really is quite simple.

A secret is something many haven't been shown, or has been deliberately hidden. Such as a techique in a kata which can kill but when training beginners is explained elsewise to divert their minds.

Or secrets are things that I know but don't choose to share with others, and they may or may not discover them either.

The greatest secret, one very often overlooked, it that of time. A great deal is required for most progress, and if one dosn't discover that secret, the rest becomes meaningless as they move on leaving the training behind.

The essence of the way I've been tuaght the Okinawan arts, and the Chinese arts, are the major use of the tool represented by the name kata (or other labels).

The essence of which doesn't change, it just may lie dormant for decades, or be neglected, or forgot, but resides there still.

It's all a matter of perspective. And where kata is the soul of Okinawa, a far different secret, is there is much more too.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Heck, tomorrow morning I'll be holding my normal Tai Chi class outside. Here it will be far below freezing the ground is snow covered, but Tai Chi, the quintessence of kata and energy, will flow. You should drop on by and join us. Perhaps my Crane technique could play with your Crane technique on ice and the snow too<GRIN>

Kevin73
8th December 2002, 14:18
I have seen this argument (debate) many times before and it always seems to come down to one important fact. How did you first learn kata? If you learn from someone who just has you practice over and over and over with no hands one things or pulling the moves out of the kata and playing around with them other than to JUST block/punch than I would agree that they are not good and you would be better trained learning hands on things.

BUT!!! If you learn kata and think of them as a guideline for strategy or think "what ifs" with the moves you can come up with a lot of different applications and then the kata becomes a reminder that sparks your memory of what lessons can be learned from it.

For example: Probably one of the first things many students learn is retracting your hand to the hip and performing a middle block. That's pretty basic. Now if you think differently about it and have a hand grabbing your opponent and you are pulling that to your hip and using the middle block to strike above the opponents elbow you can use the move to perform a straight armbar takedown (PPCT).

In the above scenario that is considered a "secret technique". I realize you may be thinking, "Well, everyone knows that it's not a secret". That's true now that you've had training and with the advent of such free sharing , many people know that. But, if you had no training you wouldn't know that, or when it was first taught students wouldn't have known that either. I think the word "secret" is misused alot to market things. Think of it more as "hidden" it's there in plain sight but you have to look deeper to find it.

kusanku
8th December 2002, 16:52
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehe.Phlap.:D

Hank Irwin
9th December 2002, 04:04
Ron, Ron, Ron. This is like a yo-yo, up and down. Are these the principles to teach to students? Kata is garbage is basically what you are saying. With the so called level of experience you have in Okinawan Crane Fist and Karate, how can you say that? Kata IS the essence of Okinawan karate. It verifies the ancient methods validity. This is a junk thread and should be dropped. Nonsense. All it will cause is desention in this sector of the forum and petty squabbling... Again! And Ron, if you can't find something constructive to be objective about, you should stay out of the forum. All you do is piss a lot people off, and that is dangerous my friend.

kenshorin
9th December 2002, 09:46
Originally posted by Hank Irwin
All it will cause is desention in this sector of the forum and petty squabbling... Again!

Thanks. This thread needed that statement.

If you want to see what people have said in the past about why kata is necessary, do a search for kata on any thread here on e-budo. This topic is not a new one. And if your heart is so set in stone about how useless kata is, then it will be just that for you my friend. Absolutely useless. And no manner of argument will change your mind.

I will agree that "kata secrets" don't exist however. They aren't secret at all. They're sitting there, waiting for you to come along and grasp them. But if you don't want em, thats your choice. You don't need them. Do whatever you want. Far be it for me to attempt to change your mind.

9th December 2002, 09:53
Soke:rolleyes: Goninan,

While I admit that most members on E-Budo are not PhDs they also are not idiots either, well a few are idiots anyway.

So while reading your post I can't help but wonder what is going on in you brain when you make these kinds of statements:


Originally posted by Paihequan
Without sounding controversial.......Forms or Kata are not important at all! .........The "Kata Secrets" thing is an amusing bandwagon that a great many have hitched a ride.................Many talk of these secrets but few can show them or write of them in a convincing manner (I await someone doing just that!). (No statements like these are not "contraversial" at all.....:rolleyes: Your including yourself in that last statement I hope)

Those who claim to be truly traditional should be teaching in English only, not wearing uniforms or belts, not advertising, not posting on forums and keeping the applications to themselves and a few trusted students. (Again, Your including yourself in that last statement I hope since I seem to recall you wearing your KungFu pajamas on your website and throwing out lots of foreign words too)

I await someone's expose on the "Secrets" Kata contain that cannot be found in application of individual technique!!! Kata are great tools to an end but they are not the "be all and end all". Rather they originally served as a modest vehicle via which the arts could be transmitted in a complete manner.

(Uh......didn't you just contradict yourself? If they are a "complete manner" then they are just that COMPLETE)

Look at many "traditional" (which are actually modern in time standards) kata of karatedo and one will see endless repitition of movements which by and large act as fillers to the actual applications.

(That statement right there just reinforces what I already knew about you...........you know very little about kata)


There really are no techniques in Karate nor should their be.

(Again, that statement right there just reinforces what I already knew about you...........you know very little about kata)

Tatsu
9th December 2002, 11:37
Originally posted by Paihequan
Forms or Kata are not important at all! Forms can disappear, they can die slowly or quickly like flesh on a decaying body until all that is left is the skeleton. It does not matter. The essence, the inner-features of the art must remain intact.What "Secrets" do the Kata contain that can not be found within technique or a series of technique???

Are you asking a question? It sure doesn't seem like you have a clue. I dunno. You're a trip. OK, you are right kata doesn't matter. Kumite doesn't matter. Hojo undo is a waste of time. The traditional way of Okinawan training and the modern methods are fruitless. For real knowledge listen only to your viewpoint, and for self-protection buy a gun and get a permit. Oh I'm sorry, you're in Australia and that's not allowed. Well take Krav Maga or carry a knife or something. You got all the answers. Why train? Why cause any static?

The "Kata Secrets" thing is an amusing bandwagon that a great many have hitched a ride on without fully understnading just where the "Wagon" is headed or for that matter, where its been!
Many talk of these secrets but few can show them or write of them in a convincing manner (I await someone doing just that!).
Keep in mind that application (i.e. essence) came before kata and that kata is made up of application!!! Its very simple. Those who claim to be truly traditional should be teaching in English only, not wearing uniforms or belts, not advertising, not posting on forums and keeping the applications to themselves and a few trusted students.

You want answers, huh? I'm sorry no one will explain these "secrets" to you. I have a feeling you'll never get any answers. Did you know that the word "secret" is a derivative of the word "sacred"? That might explain things in your case.
You just like to see your junk on the net, huh? Are you alright man? You're not an attention hound, are you? Yes, there are no secret things ever. No enigmas and no real truth. We have all of reality figured out and MAs is no exception. The art of "no way" is the only way. Didn't someone named Bruce LEE say that? Very original. Forms are silly dances, not made to transfer martial knowledge. Maybe you could rename your art Jeet Kune Do, too!

Whatever language you teach Okinawan and other TMAs in doesn't matter. Only the language of proof, empiricism and logic matter. Emotion does have some influence too. Most of all effectiveness speaks volumes when it comes to things "martial" in nature. Also, if you decide to teach with a 3-piece suit on that is up to you. I have a feeling that some folks could wear anything they wanted and still not be able to fight or teach the MAs.

Look at many "traditional" (which are actually modern in time standards) kata of karatedo and one will see endless repitition of movements which by and large act as fillers to the actual applications. It is the "Essence' the original thought, concept, principle that is the real secret of kata, not the kata or the techniques they contain!!!

Each kata technique has a purpose. Each movement is a defensive or offensive technique. Some moves counter and others initiate. Each has multiple meanings. One technique has a myriad of interpretations. A "reminder" of some options if you will. How you eventually interpret these techs is based on your own knowledge of confrontation and intention.This is based on the knowledge passed on to you and how you interpret it and teach it. You can rarely focus on something you have little or no experience with. So, if you have a limited perspective or limited catalog of options, then repetition is seen. Forget about ambidexterity training, "maai", rhythm, proprioception, proper biomechanics and ambulation, positioning, power distribtution, qigong and muscle memory. That's a short list of the benefits of kata training. I don't know exactly what you are trying to imply by indicting "traditional" kata training. Yes, many forms are "modern" but interpreted correctly still have merit in passing on a systems ideals and methodologies. I know you're not talking about the people on the Ryukyuan forum anyway. You have not one inkling as to how we train and what we know.

Without the essence no technique or series of techniques exist and without these no kata is formed.

If your "essence" wreaks of bovine scat, then the resulting aroma will be easy to detect. Please, tell me what THIS essence is. ILL-uminate us all please.

Speaking of decay, PLASTIC is the result of petroleum by-products which are the result of "death" and "decay" as you stated in your opening silliness. Get real, bro.

CEB
9th December 2002, 19:47
The kata is the ryu.

tetsu
9th December 2002, 20:00
If I give up kata, can I get some of those great pajamas?

Tetsu Johan

Paihequan
10th December 2002, 00:54
Your missing the point, I was/am playing Devil's Advocate in an attempt to start some meanignful discussion. The views posted are actually not mine but were said to me by Sifu Lio Chin Long of the Paihequan Wuyangkuang of Taiwan. I was simply interested to see what others had to say of these views.

Robert and Hank, I believe the rules of this board state one should be respectful. Your posts fail you on that account.

Now if we can stop "slinging off" at each other, I feel some very good points have been rauised durinmg this discussion.

I for one value "Kata" (Taolu) to a high degree and belkeive in searching for the essence of each form. We only use eight forms:

* Yong Chun Kuen
* Pah Puh Lien
* Ba Bu Lien Er Lu
* Hua Pa Pu (Ba Bu Lien Sam Lu)
* Sai Hequan
* Ershibada
* Wohng Shan Hequan

Each of these forms have a natural progression in principles towards the next form.

Lets try to keep the discussion on track and forget about the insults and personality clashes.

Regards to all

10th December 2002, 02:27
Originally posted by Paihequan
Your missing the point, I was/am playing Devil's Advocate in an attempt to start some meanignful discussion. The views posted are actually not mine but were said to me by Sifu Lio Chin Long of the Paihequan Wuyangkuang of Taiwan. I was simply interested to see what others had to say of these views.

Now Soke :rolleyes: is trying to back peddle.


Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert and Hank, I believe the rules of this board state one should be respectful. Your posts fail you on that account.

Looks like I better put a call through to Wisconsin and order some more cheese to go with that whine of yours Ron.


Originally posted by Paihequan
Now if we can stop "slinging off" at each other, I feel some very good points have been rauised durinmg this discussion.

What does “rauised durinmg” mean?


Originally posted by Paihequan
Lets try to keep the discussion on track and forget about the insults and personality clashes.

Soke :rolleyes: Ron,

If you want to play lumberjack you had better learn how to hold up your end of the log first.

Paihequan
10th December 2002, 02:50
Robert, I was wondering when you would raise your head and your personalized agendas again. It seems that you have to write and attempt to belittle others in order to make you feel good about yourself. You have to use insulting terms, sarcastic comments to try and justify yourself. Such is the actions of an internally insecure person. I truly feel sad for you.

If you don't like me or that which I post, then simply ignore my posts. It's really that simple.

Of course if you did this you would not be able to make yourself look superior to others. I don't know you. Your probably a really nice bloke but one has to wonder what tragedies in life have left you so sad, insecure and bitter towards those who don't fit your narrow-minded view of life.

I truly feel sad for you.

I will not respond to your childish and petty attempts at justifying yourself again. It is simply beneath me to do so and only serves to create disharmony on this board. You are simply not worth it.

If you feel you have something genuine to contribute towards the actual discussion taking place other than your own personal and petty agendas then I bid you welcome ... otherwise please desist from posting off the track comments which are obviously politically motivated at best. Please stop lowering yourself.

Paihequan
10th December 2002, 02:59
Please excuse my comments to Robert. Lets return to the subject of discussion.

It has been interesting to see the reactions to the views of Lio Chin Long. Some of you have respectfully begged to differ and explained your views. Others have simply gone on to make personalized attacks.

It seems that the subject for and against Kata (or Taolu) is an emotive subject which shows that many of you feel greatly for your respective arts and the forms they contain. Nothing wrong with this admirable trait.

To be honest one of the first things I seek from forms is to try to comprhend each form's lesson or essence. I look to the applications first then the actual form in it's entire being.

I'd be interested in hearing of how some of you approach the concept of forms within your own respective styles.

10th December 2002, 03:07
Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert, I was wondering when you would raise your head and your personalized agendas again. It seems that you have to write and attempt to belittle others in order to make you feel good about yourself. You have to use insulting terms, sarcastic comments to try and justify yourself. Such is the actions of an internally insecure person. I truly feel sad for you.

I have no “agenda” against you……I merely post my opinions on your posts. I do have an agenda against “Trolls” though. As for justifying myself……I have no need to justify myself for the like of you Soke :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Paihequan
If you don't like me or that which I post, then simply ignore my posts. It's really that simple.

You would love that since I expose some of the BS you seem to love to post.


Originally posted by Paihequan
Of course if you did this you would not be able to make yourself look superior to others.

Not my intention at all. I just don’t like BS artists, fakes, and liars that post crap.



Originally posted by Paihequan
I don't know you. Your probably a really nice bloke but one has to wonder what tragedies in life have left you so sad, insecure and bitter towards those who don't fit your narrow-minded view of life.

When you get a license to practice Psychology then you can analyze me.


Originally posted by Paihequan
I will not respond to your childish and petty attempts at justifying yourself again. It is simply beneath me to do so and only serves to create disharmony on this board. You are simply not worth it.

You keep promising that but never keep your word……….why?

Paihequan
10th December 2002, 03:20
Hi everyone,

The comments in my original post on this subject are actually a paraphrase of those made by Sifu Lio Chin Long of the Paihequan Wuyangkuan of Taiwan.

It was intertesting to note how most of you replied to this post. I'm pleased to see that the "hounds" were immmediately not released upon me for "attacking kata"as this is not the case.

Its pleasing to see that those on this Board are able to discuss matters in civil manner.

I teach eight (8) Taolu or forms (Kata):

* Yongchun Kuen
* Pah Puh Lien
* Ba Bu Lien Er Lu
* Hua Pa Pu (Ba Bu lien Sam Lu)
* Zhongkuang
* Sai Hequan
* Ershibada
* Wohng Shan Hequan

Yongchun Keun is a basic or introductory form.

Pah Puh Lien, Ba Bu Lien Er Lu, Hua Pa Pu and Ershibada are all interlinked in their natural progression.

I approach forms from the perspective of attempting to firstly understand their essence or the the lessons each contains. Following this, I look to the applications of each form, lastly the mastery of the actual form in question.

In traditional Crane-Fist of both the Okinawan and Chinese origins, Applications (Qingqui or Bunkai) are the first thing taught followed by the actual form from which the applications arose. In this way, the student comes to understand the form more fully.

Hank Irwin
11th December 2002, 22:55
Devils advocate huh? This is BS. Ron, this forum does not belong to you. Piss off enough of us here and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for John Sensei to kick you out of here, for good. You have decided to ostrasize(?) yourself from some really good people here, just to make your point? Which as a matter of fact, I would like to know most of the time what that is! Sooner or later karma will rear it's sometimes ugly head. I myself don't like to bite off more than I can chew. You(Ron) on the other hand, have a mouthful. If you can't see what your presence here has gotten you, then so be it. Ron, just off they cuff, when was the last time you did kumite? :p

Paihequan
11th December 2002, 23:13
Hi Hank,

Top of the morning to you too! Kumite (San Shou) was done yesterday Thanks for asking!

As for your post mate, your the type of bloke that would be out of depth in a carpark puddle! You have delusions od adequacy. If Moses had known you, there would be another Commandment.

Relax, lighten up and enjoy this thing we call life! (Cue entry by Robert)

Anybody out there want to discuss the value of kata???

Tatsu
12th December 2002, 06:40
On point Hank, on point!

Hahahahaha, wooooooooooooo!!! Oh boy...
Ron, get 1 clue please! Put your "San Shoes" back on and walk out the Dojo! Don't forget to bow.

Daito
12th December 2002, 08:15
Ron,

I don't read this thread often, and even less often I indulge in any discussion here. However there are some points I must straigten up.

Why do you bring the name of my teacher up? Lio, Chin-Long shifu has not made such statement.Have you met him, trained under or/and talk to him?

If the forms are not important, why are they still secret within Paihequan/Shihequan? Why one must sacrifice so much time, show complete dedication and pay quite a lot to learn the next form if they were of no value?
The forms of Shihequan are the core of the system, guarded by Lio shifu and few dedicated students. Even now, there is noone who has been taught all 12 Shihequan forms by Lio shifu. The highest ranked students were taught 5.

I have not visited shifu for long time, but surely I will ask him about it soon.

And, yes, without forms, there would not be a system / ryu / quan.

Althought Shihequan emphasizes applications, these are based on forms, and there are forms not applications, which are very important for the style to survive.

I'm sorry to write it publicly, but you have written about my teacher publicly. My duty is to stand by Shihequan and it's true values, which I must do as a representative of this school.

To make it clear:

1. Paihequan (Shihequan, Minhequan, Feihequan, Suhequan) all have their unique forms which mostly are considered secret and not taught openly.

2. The forms are important part of every system, for without them there would not be a system.

3. It's true, Lio shifu eagerly emphasizes the applications, since most people get caught in forms, without being able to practically use the style. However without the forms there would be no applications.

I'm not happy to post it at all, however to clarify this issue is very important.


Paul Wollos
Wuyang Paihemen Shihequan HQ, Taiwan

12th December 2002, 09:24
Originally posted by Paihequan
Hi Hank,

Top of the morning to you too! Kumite (San Shou) was done yesterday Thanks for asking!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hank I think it's time to pass out the lifejackets as it's getting deep around here.....know what I mean?


Originally posted by Paihequan
Relax, lighten up and enjoy this thing we call life! (Cue entry by Robert)


And you wonder why I dislike your posts..........

Paihequan
12th December 2002, 09:34
Hi Paul,

I have sent a private e-mail to you regarding my mention of the views of the Paihequan Wuyangkuan. I hope you recieve it:)

Please get in touch with me. My e-mail is:

tsuruken@austarnet.com.au

Best wishes

Paihequan
13th December 2002, 01:03
Merry Christmas!

To all (Yes that includes you Robert & Hank ;)... no hard feelings!)

I wish you and your families all the best for the festive season and a Happy and Peaceful New Year! :) :) :) :)

kusanku
13th December 2002, 01:37
Hank, Robert, good stuff, and Paul Wollos, thank you for the post, that is very interesting.

My understadning about White Crane is very small but I had thought it was the way you, Paul, said, and not the way Ron, had.

Ron, you are kinda acting like you are the moderator of this forum, and you are not, Neither am I, but Doug Daulton is.

Now, Hank and Robert happen to be both very knowledgeable martial artists, and if you knew either one in person, you might be a bit more respectable to them.I am of course, dawse peaceful warrior, ah, smell dawse flowers in the spring, enlightenment!:D

As for kata, why don't you do a Google Search for the Baylor University Karate Club, go to Genjumin's world there, and read the ten articles?One may even be called Kata's secrets, or is that John Vengel's Alphabet O' Destruction? I forget.

If you can't find them there, they may also be read at SRSI or at the Kissaki-Kai Malaysia Website, to name a couple other places, or at Shawn Jefferson's Kata Analysis website on Shotokan Planet, some have some different stuff too.

Then come back here and tell me why, how and where I am wrong.:D


Always ready to learn.
Dozo, Onegai Shimasu.

Y feliz Navidad!Also to all a good night!

Hank Irwin
13th December 2002, 04:45
I am a very simple man with unfortunately very frugal means, but, I wish I had the money for a round trip ticket to the Land down Under. I want to see proof in the pudding. I am not challenging you Ron, just put up or shut up. Maybe I could show you some of the techniques from Naihanchi that you didn't see in the tape my Sensei sent you. I don't know if you REALIZE why he sent it to you. We don't screw around with Karate Jutsu. And we take great offense to ANYONE who would diminish what we do. Our art comes from the OLD MASTERS of Okinawa. All you could find was ways to chastise my Sensei for what you see as brutality. You better hope you never meet my Sensei, revalation to say the LEAST. I also find it kinda duplicitous that you would send Paul Sensei a "private" e-mail concerning your "concerns", but let everybody here know it. You come off as a great proponet of MA. Nahhhh! If you have something to share with the MA community, then do it. If you could come off with some enlightning insights, everyone here would dote on you, but that has not been the case. I have met MANY intelligent folks that are scum bags(not calling you one either) that talk the talk, but when it really comes down to it, they don't even want to walk the walk, scared stiff. This ain't a threat, just FACT! bra! Maybe the Matsumura Group will tolerate your behavior, but not here. Remember, just as we grow old, our intent is more substantuated. Real Karate Jutsu is not a chess game where you shake hands, congradulate each other, and walk away when you are done. There is only one man standing. Literally!!!

Paihequan
13th December 2002, 06:14
Thanks for the words Hank, Your welcome at my place anytime.
Best wishes for the season.

Hank, Robert, and John I'm not going to enter into yet another go-nowhere slanging match with you guys. Irespect your arts and the years out into same just as I have value for what I do.

Each to his own. If I can learn from your views I will. No one of us is the "better man", we each are human.

I'll try to be a little less pushy and over the top in future. Seriously my desire on this board is not to make waves. Its not what separates us that matters but that which brings us together. If I csn share something of my research into Crane-Fist I will (that's if any of you are interested that is!) Again all the best for the season

Paihequan
13th December 2002, 06:34
Paul,

I consider you an very good friend and mentor. I sincerely apologize for raising Sifu Lio Chin Long's name, views and the views of yourself and the Paihequan Wuyangkuan. I take this opportunity to wish you the best for Christmas and the New Year. I hope to hear from you soon.

CEB
13th December 2002, 14:57
Originally posted by Paihequan
...
Seriously my desire on this board is not to make waves. Its not what separates us that matters but that which brings us together.
...

Huh? Then why do you stir up these damn tsunami then. Aren't you the same guy that got banned from the Matsumura Shorin list list for calling Soken Hohan a child pornographer? My god man, there are men who knew Soken personally that hang out there.

The only thing these kind of actions do is piss people off, hurt people's feelings, and ostracize you from some good people.

I thought I recognized your name from somewhere but I didn't remember where. My son's Matsumura Seito's teacher reminded of the Soken incident one night at his dojo. I thought 'OK that explains his behavior on e-budo, Ron just likes to stir up ¤¤¤¤ for no good reason'. You can keep posting if you want but my gut feeling is that most of the men on this list are done conversing with you.

14th December 2002, 03:44
Folks,

Ron's typical M.O. is he likes to insult you in a post/thread and then in the next post/thread say something like he thinks your nice guy and would like to sit down and have a pint with you, wishes you a Merry Xmas blah, blah, blah......my personal opinion of Ron is he is a gutless coward/troll that bought his rank rather than earned it……case in point…..his Soke :rolleyes: title.
To date Soke :rolleyes: Ron has only stirred up trouble here with his bogus content posts and chameleon like posting tactics.

Soke :rolleyes: Ron,

If you have something intelligent to say please do so…..because so far most of what you have posted has been pure crap.

Tatsu
14th December 2002, 09:43
I guess that's that. Mudslinging from across the pacific shows lack of cajones! Be careful of where you tread!

Felis Navidad, Maligayang Pasko, Glorious Kwanza and Happy Chanukah!!! A new year is almost here!!! Happy Holidays Rob, Hank, Ed, Paul and John--you warrior/scholars, you!!!

Paihequan
14th December 2002, 23:47
Robert, Hank, Tatsu etc,

I see that you are still (after many many years) out to get me in some way as you always have! However, I will save you any more time and effort and heart ache and serious psychological problems by telling you that in no way are you able to harm me in any way what-so-ever, physically or with the pen!

And you know why? It is because I have a life and your life revolves around me! I should be flattered! But I am indifferent as I have so much to do in life that I have no time to even listen to this rubbish (as I have told you in the past).

My martial arts is a personal and private thing. I continue to learn from people like Yap Leong, Shifu Gu-Ping, Master Tan, Erle Montaigue and Paul Wollos who are not my teachers but my friends. I am too busy learning this great stuff, researching, learning more and having a great life to be bothered with your rather childish and on-going petty-minded comments which only serve to reveal your true characters.

I have nothing I have to prove to you people so say what you wish.The rumour mill will continue to produce its grist, & I have no wish any longer to even engage in the task of correction. At the end of the day, people will say & believe what they will, no matter what the reality is.

It as it is what you know and not from whom you learnt. However, my art stands as it is, paying no attention to the Web Warriors, Dollar $ensei and like that of yourselves.

Give it up mate, go and get yourself a life out of the martial arts as it is killing your mind!

I'll not lower the good names of those I value over the petty childish-minded comments of those who should know better as both persons and martial artists.

I will no longer visit this board so you may now go about your business of continuing to spew forth your petty-minded comments in my abscence all the while showing others the type of people you truly are.

There is nothing you can say or do. You see, I have a life!

15th December 2002, 02:13
Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert, Hank, Tatsu etc,

I see that you are still (after many many years) out to get me in some way as you always have!

Paranoid?




Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert, Hank, Tatsu etc,
............by telling you that in no way are you able to harm me in any way what-so-ever, physically or with the pen!

Physically? Sounds like a challenge to me.....

15th December 2002, 02:29
Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert, Hank, Tatsu etc,

I will no longer visit this board so you may now go about your business of continuing to spew forth your petty-minded comments in my abscence all the while showing others the type of people you truly are.

Soke :rolleyes: Ron,

I don’t care whether you stay or go but if you do stay don’t “Troll” like have so far.

Hank Irwin
15th December 2002, 04:55
For as long as I live, I will remember the names and the people I have spoken to here at this wonderful place of enlightenment, because for as long as E-Budo lives and after that, these conversations here amongst us and those that watch will NEVER be forgotten. Sounds like a rock and a hard place to me,for you Ronchan. You may find that challenges are not a myth or romantisism of times gone by. I look forward to meeting you one day. You've had the opportunity to make good on many things, but instead, duplicity, but you are a wolf in sheeps clothing amongst Lions of our Day. Only the strong survive little man. 'Nuff said!:mad:

nytoothfairy
16th December 2002, 08:27
Gentlemen,

A few questions if I may?

I have followed this issue with Mr. Goninan here and elsewhere for some time now and finally decided to sign on and comment.

With a known history of plagarism and jumping from style to style like leap-frog, each time masquerading as a seasoned *black belt,* how can Mr. Goninan possibly be angered that other´s (who´ve actually done the work, made the sacrifice and paid the price) will not respect him? Now, jumping ship from one Okinawan style (new, eclectic and convoluted as it may be) to a Chinese tradition (new, eclectic and convoluted as it may be) to become an overnight sifu without ever going through the ranks (again) and expecting that we admire him is simply preposterous!

How deluded can this person truly be to actually believe that he is disrespected for any other reason than the obvious? Surly, he must take us as fools?

Mr. Goninan, the only place I see that you´re admired is by your new host and friend, Michael (Mike) Davis (AKA the DSI phony Navy Seal;-)over on the Budogeeks List. Perhaps that is a better place for you.

My 2 cents.

Hank Irwin
16th December 2002, 14:12
Goninan sent me an e-mail yesterday telling me to stop acting/looking like a school-yard bully. Hahaha! For almost 5 years I have been listening to the crap he has been putting out. He also tells me not to bother sending a reply as he has blocked my e-mail address from getting to him. So what! He should be banned from here forever. This whole thing smells of money and ego to me. Definetly insecurities on his part. If he thinks he has nothing to worry about, think again. If he is worried now about what he has said in past, I guarantee he hasn't got a clue what will eventually happen because of it. To quote some rockers, "I'm 6' from the edge and I'm thinking, maybe 6' ain't so far down." Hahahaha! Look behind you Nadsy.:D

17th December 2002, 07:31
Funny Soke:rolleyes: Ron should mention blocking someone's email since I had to block his because he was sending me up 20~30 spam emails a day during one of his tempertantrums after reading something I posted about him.

I too find it amusing that Soke:rolleyes: Ron has made lateral rank moves from not only one style to another but from one art to another...........but I guess when you "buy" rank it's pretty easy to do. As for Soke:rolleyes: Ron's words/past posts catching up with him.....from what I have read/heard there is a long line of people ready to hand him his ass if they see him. It doesn't surprise me since people of his calibar often find themselves in just such a situation.

Tatsu
17th December 2002, 07:38
Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert, Hank, Tatsu etc,

I see that you are still (after many many years) out to get me in some way as you always have! However, I will save you any more time and effort and heart ache and serious psychological problems by telling you that in no way are you able to harm me in any way what-so-ever, physically or with the pen!

And you know why? It is because I have a life and your life revolves around me! I should be flattered! But I am indifferent as I have so much to do in life that I have no time to even listen to this rubbish (as I have told you in the past).

Don't crazy people always think that everyone else is crazy?? You've been on every forum Goninan, bashing this person and that person, denouncing every style that was not BUTO-ryu, or whatever you call it now. You don't know the first thing about these folks you criticize and many of them are well respected Okinawan karateka. I think you're stuck in the meat grinder. I forget nothing and in fact the anger grows with each reminder I see of you on the net. Do you understand who you've dismissed and who they are? You can't, otherwise you would have never embarked on this solo stupidity.

What the hell is up with the world? Why are people so blind to reality. Contrary to popular belief the concrete being that -concrete- there are certain things that are truth and things that are not. Just because you WANT to be something or someone, doesn't mean that you ARE that something or someone. That takes diligence, respect, time and sacrifice. Just because you believe something to be true doesn't make it so. You have to have proof. It's obvious that you think all traditional Okinawan martial artists are Ringling-Bros. Barnum and Bailey types. You'll find very few suckers amongst well-versed and trained Okinawan karateka, PERIOD!

You really do need to GET A FRIGGIN' LIFE. Medication will help with the delusions of grandeur too, hahaha.

Tom Douglas
31st December 2002, 18:00
Ron Goninan used to list Paul Wollos as his "technical advisor" for Shihequan. Given Mr. Wollos' ("Daito")responses on this thread, I wonder how close the relationship was, how "technical" the advice on Feeding Crane was, and whether Mr. Wollos ever realized he was the official "technical advisor" for Mr. Goninan's group.

Paihequan
1st January 2003, 01:49
Kenneth,

Yeah I guess so as they seem "out to get me" in any way they can. Pretty sad ..... for them. Just goes to show the level of character and maturity. Oh well, while they are having a go at me their leaving someone else alone LOL:p

As for Paul Wollos (a good friend and person), on the 16/12/02 he gave me permission to place the following on my web site:


Some information about Paihequan is provided by Paul Wollos, who is representative of the Shihequan's Headmaster Lio, Chin-Long (Paihemen Shihequan Wu-Yang, Taiwan, R.O.C.).

Furthermore, Shifu Gu-Ping, along with Sifu Yap Leong, Sifu Paul Wollos and Master Erle Montaigue act as advisors to the KOBGK Paihequan International.

Paul is only interested in the martial arts not the personalities, pride, vanity and politics of others.

Paihequan
1st January 2003, 02:08
Kenneth,

As far as I am aware it never got off the ground which is sad. It would have been great to heve Hokama Sensei there as he has taught on other courses along with Gakiya Sensei.


"Treat your fellow E-Budo members with respect."

Paihequan
1st January 2003, 05:11
Kenneth,

Looks like they had a great time!

What's your connection to the Natsu Kosu?

Regards

Doug Daulton
5th January 2003, 20:40
Folks,

This thread is closed. Consider this notice that all generic "you suck" and "my teacher was bigger and badder than your teacher" threads will be shut down.

To be completely honest, I have not read the entire thread, but have seen enough of this verbal battle to shut it down. To ALL parties involved, some of whom I am sure are very much my seniors, I say "Tsk, tsk."

If actual technical, historical or other research-related questions are contained within this thread, please start new threads specific to those topics.

Else, know that mud-slinging will not be tolerated in any of the RUMA forums. If you have legitimate concerns/questions about someone's lineage, please take them up in person via PM, IM or email.

Finally, this should NOT shut down intelligent, reasoned debates about technical or historical points. As always, those are strongly encouraged. However, to paraphrase "The Godfather" ... 'Keep it strictly business, not personal."

Regards,