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MindBlade
8th December 2002, 04:56
After a number of conversations, a very good friend of mine has decided to come and check out our Ninpo training. Now being the diligent guy that Chuck is, he has done some research. He's checked out a few books and many many websites. Charles had a couple of questions for me about AfricanAmericans in Ninpo to which I really had no good answers so, I told him I ask a few friends. ;) Here goes:

1) There don't seem to be many African Americans involved in Ninpo/BBT as compared to other martial arts. Why do you think that is?

2) Who are some of highest ranking African Americans in Ninpo/BBT?

Any insight or background would be highly valued.

Taharka Mena

icynorth
8th December 2002, 16:07
At the 2000 Tai Kai I met with a really cool Bujinkan Judan who was black. I am afraid I don't remember his name.

My longest training partner is also black, and I live in a town where there are less than 8 black people, so that ratio is pretty good LOL.

Michael Coleman
9th December 2002, 00:43
Dear Mr. Mena,

Your friend asked some interesting questions:

"1) There don't seem to be many African Americans involved in Ninpo/BBT as compared to other martial arts. Why do you think that is?"

I believe that the answer to this one is the same no matter what art of profession we are discussing - lack of role models. The Japanese/Chinese character "shi" (as in renshi, kyoshi and shihan) has the meaning of model (the positive aspect of being a master).

The difference in the Asian words for "master" is that if one stops acting in "masterful" or "model" ways, then they cease to be one. Of course, there are still abuses. But at least the idea sounds like a good place to start.

"2) Who are some of highest ranking African Americans in Ninpo/BBT?"

My new friend from Ohio already answered this for the Genbukan and KJJR, but I don't know about the BBT. -- Tell your friend that he can come to my dojo anytime. If he stays with it, maybe he can become a great role model for all of us!


Sincerely,

Michael Coleman

MindBlade
9th December 2002, 00:48
posted by Shojin
I also had a few African American students in Ninpo as well. One thing I have seen that in my city, is that the Japanese arts seem to be in the suburbs and the white suburbs mostly. Thecity has mostly Kung fu, so maybe it is just because that is what is around. most people go to what is close.
hmmm...sounds like maybe economics plays a bit of a part here.


posted by icynorth
At the 2000 Tai Kai I met with a really cool Bujinkan Judan who was black. I am afraid I don't remember his name.
Would anyone happen to know this gent's name? Judan is quite impressive.

Taharka Mena

icynorth
9th December 2002, 03:40
I only remember him being there for the first day. I had a smoke with him, he was really nice. He had just finished some Tyson bodyguard work. I'd figure as a Judan he'd have little time for me, but he ws the one along with Ed Martin that gave me a new respect for that rank and its humbleness. That is the one thing about the Tai Kai that opened my eyes the most. Those who should have ego don't and those that shouldn't do LOL
I had no problem approaching any Judan at all, I met many of them there. Unfortunatly the one in question is the one I didn't get the name for LOL Sorry!

bencole
9th December 2002, 04:43
Originally posted by MindBlade
Would anyone happen to know this gent's name? Judan is quite impressive.

A word of advice, Taharka. Look at the Budo, not the rank. :rolleyes:

-ben

Todd Schweinhart
9th December 2002, 05:47
Hello,
The man you are speaking of is Mr. Robert Johnson from Indiana. He is a very talented budoka and long time practitioner of Taijutsu. He used to train with Mr. Stephen K. Hayes back in the old days.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Todd Schweinhart
Louisville KY

Jason Chambers
9th December 2002, 15:30
Let's not forget about Darryl Caldwell.... but why is this an issue?

MindBlade
9th December 2002, 15:35
posted by Jason Chambers

.... but why is this an issue?
Please see first post in this thread.

Taharka Mena

Jason Chambers
9th December 2002, 15:45
Maybe its a matter of persoanl preference... as opposed to economics. If you don't have the money for Ninpo, chance are you don't have it for another art either.

The Tengu
9th December 2002, 16:40
Originally posted by Jason Chambers
Maybe its a matter of persoanl preference... as opposed to economics. If you don't have the money for Ninpo, chance are you don't have it for another art either. Yeah, I haven't noticed much of a difference in monthly fees between Taijutsu schools and other clubs.

If you can afford the money and time typically associated with Tae Kwon Do for instance, you can surely afford Taijutsu training.

I trained with a few Black guys at Tai Kai this year, and from what I can remember I can only recall seeing two other Asians in attendance besides myself (other than Soke and the shihan). That means there were more Blacks than Yellows who attended the 2002 US Tai Kai.

What's up with THAT?!? ;)

O'Neill
9th December 2002, 19:23
Demeaning a bit, don't ya think? Should we start referring to African americans as colored again? African American.

shinbushi
9th December 2002, 20:50
Matt Woodard who run the Todai Dojo (http://www.todaidojo.com) is African American.

Jason Chambers
9th December 2002, 22:02
How about "people of color"? There are very few naturalized Africans in America.

This is another debate in and of itself but why can't it just be AMERICAN?

MindBlade
10th December 2002, 00:15
posted by Jason Chambers
.
How about "people of color"? There are very few naturalized Africans in America.
The question that I relayed asks about a specific group of Americans. Regardless of your chosen definition of "naturalized", I can safely assure you that African Americans (Americans of African descent,naturalized and native born) do, in fact, exist like any other subgroup of Americans (Chinese, Japanese, Italian, Catholic, Protestant, obese, wealthy, septugenarians, Masons, Elks, etc, etc.):p.

Come on Mr. Chambers, because a question is asked about a particular subgroup's presence/participation does not mean that the larger group, AMERICANS, is any less valued.

No need for a debate as there is nothing in contention.

Be well,

Taharka Mena

Jason Chambers
10th December 2002, 04:19
;)

Jim_Jude
10th December 2002, 10:36
Originally posted by O'Neill
Demeaning a bit, don't ya think? Should we start referring to African americans as colored again? African American.

WHO CARES!?! They can call us Crackers or whatever. Who cares...

My friend Tonisha refered to me as her "Niggah" to a bunch of guys at a party. I asked her how much she'd had to drink. They all laughed & she said that she could say it, but I shouldn't. Now THAT was confusing.

Andy Watson
10th December 2002, 11:57
Sorry for a non-ninpoist to be posting in this section but there is a commonality in the iaido/jodo world. I only know of one black guy in the British Kendo Association and I then met one black guy from Canada who came to one of our seminars. These are the only two black people I have ever seen in seven years of iai/jo training in Japan and Europe.

There does indeed seem to be a lack of ethnic mix in the Japanese martial arts and the only reason I can think why is by making a racist statement - the Japanese are/were extremely racialist themselves against those who were not pure Japanese or of a white western background.

I won't go into too much detail about the way that people of an Indian, African or Arabic origin have been treated in Japan and some of this still continues today. Thankfully racial prejudice is diminishing but it has left it's mark.

On this basis it seems very likely that
a) many Japanese teachers of the "old days" would have accepted white students but may have turned away black ones.
b) realising the racialist tendency of the Japanese, black communities in the west never saw the Japanese as role models (as indicated in an ealier posting)
c) black martial artists turned away from the classic Japanese martial arts and involved themselves with those arts which have already been heavily adopted in the west i.e. karate, judo, Chinese boxing etc.
d) karate originates from Okinawa and "Kung-fu" from China, both of these countries having seen serious racial prejudice from the Japanese in the form of war and post-war behaviour, isn't it likely that people of an ethnic background would feel more of a kinship to these people

Most of the above is based on my own opinion of course. I guess the best thing to do is to ask some black people who do martial arts what they think about the Japanese and the classic Japanese arts.

Michael Coleman
10th December 2002, 13:27
For Everyone,

There has been some interesting guesses on this subject, but not many personal experiences. Please consider these things - #1 WHY, #2 HOW, #3 HOW LONG, #4 LEGACY:

WHY

I stand behind my earlier post on this one. Without proper role models a child doesn't even DREAM about becoming a chosen profession (because they don't identify with that subject). I've seen it happen in my own family.

HOW

There has to be a clear path to the goal. -- In the sixties, my uncle was in the military. While in Asia, he trained with the famous Karate-do master, Gogen Yamaguchi. He eventually reached the master level and returned the the US. Now he has many dojos and teaches all over the world. In 1972, I started training with him. I know for sure that if I hadn't had him as an example, I wouldn't be where I am today.

The military flew him to Asia, but his super hard work and serious dedication got him accepted in one of the most difficult schools in Japan. -- We can all do it, if we try hard enough.

HOW LONG

Most Sport martial arts seem to peak eariler than traditional ones. But, of course, that all depends on the individual. I see Ninpo and Jujutsu as traditional Budo, so perhaps the height of one's abilities come in their 50's (though I've seen great masters in their 70's-90's). -- Most of the black people that I have met like martial arts, but, like any group of people, some are dedicated and some are lazy.

LEGACY

The more black instructors (or teachers of any one race for that matter) we have in any given profession, the more kids of that same race will see it as a possiblity.

ANY OF US CAN DO ANYTHING, BUT WE MIGHT HAVE TO BLAZE OUR OWN NEW TRAILS!



Sincerely,

Michael Coleman

Jason Chambers
10th December 2002, 13:37
AMEN!

(Referencing Coleman Sensei's comments...)

Rick,

I think that may be a possibility. When I was teaching "marrtial arts", there was a very large populace of ethnic (a broader term) children and adults who were interested in training but just didn't seem to feel comfortable in the enviroment which was mainly Caucasian.

Here in my city we have been forced to racially mix our schools (academic), I think this may be a factor. Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do does not leave a pleasant taste n the mouth... I think tensions, whether people admit to it or not, are still very high, at least in Louisiana anyway.

If anyone knows where I was going with this thought, please tell me... I seem to have forgotten my train of thought.

:D

Bradenn
10th December 2002, 14:12
Hasegawa is probably the most famous Black Ninja.

Michael Coleman
11th December 2002, 04:31
Dear Mr. Ray,

You bring up an interesting point, but I think that it is difficult to address second-hand. The person who asked the question is not even posting on this site (to my knowledge), so I will try to comment only on his exact questions.

To your thoughts I'd say that it they certainly make sense. Only please remember that someone elses feelings are a very hard thing to gauge. - I have been black my whole life. I am used to it, so I accept several facts of life with which you may or may not have had to deal.

For example:

Some years ago, I was buying a martial arts magazine on a news stand downtown. Suddenly, two detectives yelled "Up against the wall!" and I did what I was told. One of the officers started questioning me face-to-face, and I was a little confused at what happened next.

Thoughout the interview, I looked at the policeman and tried to find any trace of recognition in his eyes. -- You see, he had been to my dojo not two months before. I remember him very well, because while he was stretching (he was wearing shorts and a loose shirt) his gun fell onto the mat. Of course, I asked him to put it away for the next class, and we had a nice conversation about his job as a detective.

Back on the street, his hand was on his firearm, so I didn't feel comfortable bringing up old times. Of course, I was not the thief for which they were looking. I only "fit the description." - He never realized who I was, at all!

Maybe it is understandable when it happens once, but even I (a person who doesn't go out to bars, etc.) could fill this post with several such stories. In addition, EVERY black martial artist to which I have told that story had another (even more serious) one to tell me. We all know that it comes with the territory. I don't know how to communicate that to you. Most just accept it and move on with their lives.

Anyway, as I've already said, I've been black all my life, so I don't choose to get angry about the small stuff. I know (just like you) that there are lots of black people who do very bad things. And I am sorry about that (just as I am sorry that non-black people do terrible acts of violence too).

We are all just people, so we should all try to help each other. -- If the original guy who started this has more questions, he can write me at michael@spsp.com. Other than that, I think that I've said enough.


Sincerely,

Michael Coleman

Bradenn
11th December 2002, 14:46
What about Ronald Duncan. He is a person "of colour" and is a Ninjitsu grandmaster.

How can you all overlook him???

The Tengu
11th December 2002, 15:22
Originally posted by Bradenn
What about Ronald Duncan. He is a person "of colour" and is a Ninjitsu grandmaster.

How can you all overlook him??? I cannot tell whether or not you're being sarcastic...

Bradenn
11th December 2002, 15:45
Sarcastic? You mean Grandmaster Duncan isn't really the Soke of Koga Ryu Ninjitsu? What with his Japanese name and all.

Mountain Kusa
11th December 2002, 18:09
I certainly do not believe that color has anything to do with training. I have had the good fortune over my years in this art to Train with some fine "african americans". Our group here in Chattanooga has two fine gentlemen both of which add much to the group. Our group here consists of 3 whites, 2 african americans, and 1 philipino. I am white and the leader of the group. I absolutly cant stand nor see the need for having to classify each other by color. We all have names. I guess that you would think that i am a democrat but i am a republican. Hmmmmm

We are americans in our shibu & no one gets treated any differently because of color nor has knowledge hidden from them. When I attended the 2002 taikai no one seemed to react any differently because of color. We all just train and have a good time. There is way to much divisiveness in the world to allow it to affect a group. Just be, and allow others to be. It is all about freedom and choice. :)

Andy Watson
12th December 2002, 14:25
Mr Sanders

I don't believe that whether we should discriminate or not was the topic of this thread.

We were discussing that certain branches of the martial arts seem to attract different levels of ethnic population. If we can understand that and realise what might be causing this imbalance then we can work towards removing the obstacles which might be turning some groups of people away.

Previous postings strongly suggest that there is indeed an imbalance. I, like you, also do not see the need to classify people by their colour but this has certainly happened in the past and I feel that the majority, if not all, of the contributors to this thread wish to redress what has happened before.

With best respect

Qasim
13th December 2002, 22:47
Originally posted by O'Neill
Demeaning a bit, don't ya think? Should we start referring to African americans as colored again? African American.

I prefer to be called "Black Guy" or Black American. Africa is a continent, not a country. African America could mean that I'm from Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Ethiopia, Sudan, Nigeria, Algeria, etc. From these examples, it doesn't say anything for us in terms of identity.

We have people in this country who are Italian, German, Polish, Russian, etc. Stick "Americans", at the end and you have family origin and nationality. African American say's I'm an American of non-descrip origin.

So I don't find that demeaning in the least bit being called a "Black Guy". If anything, African American only reaffirms that fact that our ancestors whether they were brought here or to South America or the West Indies were kidnapped from somewhere in Africa and denied the right to carry their nationality and heritage because they were considered "property" and not living breathing human beings.

MindBlade
14th December 2002, 01:14
Hello Qasim,
Let's have a meeting of the minds here. I agree with you that the term "Black guy" is in no way demeaning (We should all remember the term "Black" was self adopted by African Americans during the 60's era of Civil Rights protest and "Black is Beautiful").

However Qasim, I must say that what you posted about the term "African American" really doesn't stand up logically, reasonably or historically. Let's take it one step at a time:

Qasim posted

I prefer to be called "Black Guy" or Black American. Africa is a continent, not a country. African America could mean that I'm from Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Ethiopia, Sudan, Nigeria, Algeria, etc. From these examples, it doesn't say anything for us in terms of identity.

The last sentence here can not be true because the term African American does say the following about identity:

1) Africa is a physical location so, on the simplest level, it designates the place of origin of the forerunners of Americans of African descent. The term African American identifies this.

2) Africa is a cultural location in the very real sense that the roots of the African American's religious, artistic, culinary and social aspects are found in Africa. African Americans most obviously did preserve much of there heritage. Look around. The term African American identifies this.

3) Let’s have a sense of proportionality. The cultural reality that African Americans brought to the new world took thousands upon thousands of years to develop and billions of lifetimes. A few hundred years in America expanded upon this foundation; it does not erase it. The term African American proudly recognizes this.

Next mistep Qasim also posted

If anything, African American only reaffirms that fact that our ancestors whether they were brought here or to South America or the West Indies were kidnapped from somewhere in Africa and denied the right to carry their nationality and heritage because they were considered "property" and not living breathing human beings.

While it is true that “African American” is not as specific as say “Ashante American” or “Yoruba American”, simply identifying African Americans as “African Americans” in no way reaffirms slavery any more than the term Asian American or Latin American reaffirms slavery! Slavery is a fact of American history and the use of “Black” or any other word can not avoid the history and implications of slavery! But ponder this. “African American” is a classification that technically includes those with and without slave ancestors.

Finally, not using a more precise term such as “Ashante American" points to the fact that African Americans are thoroughly intermixed. This is true in terms of tribal nation and in terms of culture. Some of the prominent aspects of African American culture can be traced to the Yoruba some can be traced to the Fante some to the Ashante, etc. Some can be traced to many West African groups. Given this mix “African American” could be considered more precise.

Finally, any review of African American owned/produced media will show that, amongst African Americans, there is pretty much a consensus on this point. Generally, African Americans have decided that they now prefer the term "African American" to formally identify themselves and their heritage. Now, even though you (or the guy who applauded) still may not agree with the legitimacy of African Americans’ use this term for themselves, given the above, surely you can’t think it is an inappropriate mis-identification.

I hope this helps.

Be well,

Taharka Mena

Qasim
14th December 2002, 03:58
Originally posted by MindBlade
Hello Qasim,
Let's have a meeting of the minds here. I agree with you that the term "Black guy" is in no way demeaning (We should all remember the term "Black" was self adopted by African Americans during the 60's era of Civil Rights protest and "Black is Beautiful").

However Qasim, I must say that what you posted about the term "African American" really doesn't stand up logically, reasonably or historically.Taharka Mena

You quoted this statement but you avoid the reality of it in your response.


Africa is a continent, not a country. African American could mean that I'm from Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Ethiopia, Sudan, Nigeria, Algeria, etc.

Do you know of any Yuroba in Algeria? What religion is the African religion? If you ask someone from Nigeria or Ghana what they are, they will say, "I'm Nigerian or I'm from Ghana". If they are asked if they are African they will say yes but my country is Nigeria or Ghana. They will not leave it at "I'm from Africa."

What about the Moroccan, or Algerian, what do you say about that? They are from the African continent are they not? Yet, would you say that their religion and culture is part of the African American reality that you speak of?

MindBlade
14th December 2002, 09:40
Hi there Qasim,

You mention that I am overlooking the reality of the situation. I don't think so. In many regards we make our reality. Your reality seems to be that African Americans can't use the word "African" mostly because Africa is not a nation. Is this really a rule or do you just assume it to be true? No such thing right? A hundred years ago the term "Black" was not considered an acceptable term amongst African Americans. That reality changed in the 1960's. Reality is not totally rigid. In many respects, reality changes in responds to creativity and to circumstance. Now again, lets take your concerns one major objection at a time.

Qasim wrote

Do you know of any Yuroba in Algeria?
Yoruba are primarily from Nigeria. But the Yoruba and Algerians are both Africans. The word African can be used to describe that which is indigenous to OR related to the continent, peoples and cultures of Africa. When Africans group themselves into larger groups that include more that one nationality they use the word African in just this way (such as the multi-national Organization of African Unity).

Qasim next wrote

What religion is the African religion? There are a great number of African Religions. If you doubt this, I will provide a list. But for demonstration purposes take the Ewe religion and the Ashanti religion. These are separate African religions but both are indeed African religions.

Qasim next wrote

If you ask someone from Nigeria or Ghana what they are, they will say, "I'm Nigerian or I'm from Ghana". If they are asked if they are African they will say yes but my country is Nigeria or Ghana. They will not leave it at "I'm from Africa." That works for them. I agree that the label “Nigerian” may for everyday purposes adequately (though not completely) describe a person from Nigeria. BUT why should African Americans be confined to the definitions and descriptive constructions of other groups. I mean it sounds as if you believe in some unstated rule that goes like this, “You can only legitimately identify your cultural/historical background with a legally constructed nation state”. Such a narrow definitional scheme is not adequately broad enough to describe African Americans. Because as we know African Americans are descendant not just from the people of one nation state but several African peoples (mostly West African). So the more general term “African American” is actually a more precise identifier of culture, history and related peoples than “Black”. This is reality isn’t it?

Think about it Qasim, nation states are temporary constructions anyway (Soviet Union, Prussia, Songhay). Nations are much much less permanent than the geographical and cultural complexes which may persist for ages. If, tomorrow, Nigeria conquers and joins Ghana (no offense to any Ghanaians), all of the people of the new nation will STILL be Africans. This is reality.

Qasim next wrote

What about the Moroccan, or Algerian, what do you say about that? They are from the African continent are they not? Yet, would you say that their religion and culture is part of the African American reality that you speak of? I think that you will find that Africans share many common cultural aspects. Some groups are closer to others but that does not negate the broader inter-relationship. There is a mountain of scholarship on this and when I get around to it (it’s late). I’ll send you some titles. If you ask me to be as strict as I possibly could along geographical and tribe national history, I might say that West African Americans would be the most precise term that we could use. But that does not make “African American” incorrect or affirmative of slavery. It is quite the opposite. It is a recognition of thousands of years of cutural heritage. The "American" part of "African American" clearly indentifies the nation.

Be well,

Taharka Mena

The Tengu
15th December 2002, 02:49
Taharka,

Do you prefer to be called Black or African American yourself?

MindBlade
15th December 2002, 03:16
Hmm..... Sounds as if you assume that I am of African descent. Just curious here but why do you assume that?

Taharka Mena

The Tengu
15th December 2002, 06:19
Originally posted by MindBlade
Hmm..... Sounds as if you assume that I am of African descent. Just curious here but why do you assume that?

Taharka Mena You just seemed to be so highly opinionated on the subject that I had assumed you were Black/African American based upon your level of knowledge on the matter.

I'm sorry to have assumed that you were Black/African American, if you are not indeed of African descent.

Qasim
15th December 2002, 07:12
Originally posted by MindBlade
Hmm..... Sounds as if you assume that I am of African descent. Just curious here but why do you assume that?

Taharka Mena

Hmmm.... sounds like it's a straight forward question.

MindBlade
15th December 2002, 17:33
posted by Tengu

You just seemed to be so highly opinionated on the subject that I had assumed you were Black/African American based upon your level of knowledge on the matter.

OK I see. Well, I have not said what my race/nationality is. With all due respect, I think that my race is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So I'll keep that to myself for now.

Taharka Mena

elder999
16th December 2002, 19:29
A little perspective.
I am “black.”
I have an anglicized GHANIAN name.
Most “black” Americans-whether of North or South or Caribbean origin-are descended, in part, from West African regions:Ghana, Ivory Coast, etc. Principally because these were easy parts of Africa to capture and ship slaves from-coastal regions controlled by the Portuguese.Any claims of Nigerian or other “interior” origins are specious or erroneous attribution of shared customs.
So, Qasim is right-and wrong, as is Taharka.
Right about Africa as a continent, but quite wrong about our origins, and what “African-American” means.
As emigration from Morocco, Algeria , Nigeria, et. al. is a relatively recent phenomena independent of slavery, the designation “African American” has some validity. A person from these places is as likely to identify himself as “Moroccan,” as an “Italian-American” is to say ”I’m Italian.” Please note the period after “Italian.”
“African American” does specifically connote those of us descended from the slavery diaspora. Period. It does NOT, nor is it meant to include Algerians, Moroccans, Senegalese, Somalians, Zulus or Falashas. And what’s wrong with that? Are we to simply forget that part of our history?
As an aside, many people are under the misconception that Christopher Columbus called the people he found here “Indians,” because he stubbornly believed he was in India. This is not so; he called them “en dios,” or “with God,’ because of their tractability and amiability-traits that he noted in his journal as making them ideal slaves. Most of my “Native American” brothers and sisters call themselves “Indians.”
What you call yourself(or what others call you) is of little impact in this particular situation. We are in the unique position of generally being immediately identifiable. Distinct from Italians, Slavs or Nigerians. I could lie or quibble and say “I’m a Moroccan American,” but I’m not.Why would I choose to do so, anyway. When you get right down to it, “black” and “African American” lack a certain specificity. I could tell the truth and say that I’m a “African, Native, Scottish, Polynesian American” but that’s a waste of time and breath, as most people see “a black guy.”
Just don't call me "nigger."

Mance Thompson
26th December 2002, 11:53
Just read what could have been an interesting thread. Oh well. Getting back to the questions originally posed, I would say that it comes down accessibility. Oh and plus the fact that most black parents I know didn't exactly encourage their children to dress up and play ninja. There are already enough stereotypes out there to avoid adding anything associated with black garbed assassins into the mix. Anyway, back to my point. During the early stages of the ninja boom, the only place it seemed one could get training was rural Ohio. Added to that the kind of pseudo para-militaristic leanings of some of the early neophytes, and we can see a pattern forming here that doesn't necessarily appeal to nor welcome African American participation. But what do I know, I could only dream from afar as I was still in high school living states away from the action. Now I reside in Japan and have seen more blacks training at Ayase then I ever came accross in the States. There were several black people stationed in Japan that trained there regularly. In the dojo I train at now, about a third of the foreigners there are not Caucasian. As for names, there are certain names you shouldn't use unless you are looking for a certain response.

Asia
28th December 2002, 07:51
OK I see. Well, I have not said what my race/nationality is. With all due respect, I think that my race is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So I'll keep that to myself for now.

I find it odd that you would think that your own race is irrelevant when dealing with an issue on race. I am grew up in Japan, Germany, England, Korea, Italy, and more (military brat) Even thought I lived among pple of different race I can only veiw them from MY own racial and cultural veiwpoint. In a debate of this nature RACE is truly relevant.

H3resy
5th January 2003, 21:20
Mark Davis Is a great instructor.
Http://www.boston-ninpo.com

nitflegal
6th January 2003, 00:12
>Mark Davis Is a great instructor.
>Http://www.boston-ninpo.com

I was scrolling through the thread and was very suprised to have not seen him mentioned yet. I'll have to take some correction with calling him a great instructor. He's an EXCEPTIONAL instructor! :D I miss the northeast so bloody much, Mark Davis, Greg Kowalski, Dennis Mahoney. . .

Matt

kakuma
6th January 2003, 06:53
Being black and training in Ninpo since 1988, it seems to me this entire thread has lost sight of the initial question that was posted.

It seems to have now deviated from the original question to identity issues concerning blacks and their origins.

For the record I am half black and half Indian (India) and Iranian. What does that make me a Mutt American?

Concerning the original question. I think that depending on background or role models, even upbringing or economic status has a vital role in a "black" persons decision to partake not only in martial arts but in any type of training wether it be martial arts or sports. There are not that many black people that train in tennis, gymnastics, polo, nascar racing etc. But there are also many other american nationalities that we could also include in this as well. (i.e. Hispanics, American Indians, etc.)

When I first began training I worked at a job that only paid me minimum wage. However, I was able to afford and attend training and go to seminars. My initial instructor (John Lindsey) was not necessarily in it to make a buck. He wanted to train and so did I.

I remember times in below freezing weather and sometimes in the rain only a selected few that were gung-ho would show up to train. I can remember times when it was just me and him. I will admit to this very day this is where most of my skill advanced.

I don't feel that color is actually the issue. How bad do you want it is the real issue. The desire is in the pursuit, wether you are black, white pink, blue or polka dotted.

George Kohler
6th January 2003, 09:46
Originally posted by kakuma
My initial instructor (John Lindsey) was not necessarily in it to make a buck. He wanted to train and so did I.

Hmmm,

Could this be Dale?

kakuma
6th January 2003, 15:56
Hmmm. Mr. Kohler, Yes it could be. Please forgive the fact that I FORGOT to post my name at the end of my message. I am an only a 2 day old member. As I did not realize that my name did not post.


Dale Joseph
Lubbock Kobudo Dojo

George Kohler
6th January 2003, 23:16
Originally posted by kakuma
Hmmm. Mr. Kohler, Yes it could be. Please forgive the fact that I FORGOT to post my name at the end of my message. I am an only a 2 day old member. As I did not realize that my name did not post.


Dale Joseph
Lubbock Kobudo Dojo

Hi Dale,

No worries. Just wanted to make sure that was you. BTW, what's up with "Mr. Kohler?" We've known each other at least since 1988 and you use to call me George :)

kakuma
7th January 2003, 01:05
BTW, what's up with "Mr. Kohler?"

Hello Goerge,

I don't know. I guess I was being Politically Correct so to speak. Good to hear from you again.

Dale Joseph
Lubbock Kobudo Dojo

william northcote
8th January 2003, 22:36
Only one way that I can think of getting the original question answered is to do a poll of students in America and anywhere that the budo is trained who are of black/oriental appearance/white.

As for the bit in this thread of african american: does it matter? After all, saying or labelling a place to a person is, to me, pulling down the individual as a whole. I do not see people as African, Asian, Oriental or any other proverbial label that we may inadvertanly place onto a person by thier background.

The less we label the more we will get to be more tolerent. After all we are not all members of the KKK are we?

kakuma
8th January 2003, 23:27
As for the bit in this thread of african american: does it matter? After all, saying or labelling a place to a person is, to me, pulling down the individual as a whole. I do not see people as African, Asian, Oriental or any other proverbial label that we may inadvertanly place onto a person by thier background.

Here, Here, Mr. Northcote

I agree whole heartedly.:cool:

Dale Joseph
Lubbock Kobudo Dojo

Kikbaq
8th April 2004, 01:33
I bet that the Shihan at the TaiKai may have been Shidoshi Michael Simien. His Dojo is located near the San Francisco area.
I have never trained with Shidoshi Simien personally, but he is a very talented martial artist. I know he has a website on Winjutsu.com

Dale Seago
8th April 2004, 18:11
Originally posted by Kikbaq
I bet that the Shihan at the TaiKai may have been Shidoshi Michael Simien. His Dojo is located near the San Francisco area.
I have never trained with Shidoshi Simien personally, but he is a very talented martial artist. I know he has a website on Winjutsu.com
The one at the 2000 Tai Kai was already identified and wasn't Michael Simien.

You're right, though, Michael is very talented. :-) He's my "oldest surviving student", and the first of mine to reach judan (there are two now); and he was promoted to 11th dan last week while we were at the Japan Tai Kai.

He's no longer in the US, as he now lives and teaches in Brazil (as of last year); but he does still have a dojo group across the bay from San Francisco, a number of whose members train regularly with me.

I'd say you can expect to see a lot of very good budoka coming out of Brazil in the next few years. :-)

Kikbaq
9th April 2004, 03:56
Brazil is definately a safer place. I am proud to be posting here with Michaels first Shidoshi. I can't wait to see you @ Buyu Camp this year Shidoshi Seago, it is always a pleasure. Always my favorite time of year.

momotarosan
23rd July 2004, 15:30
Originally posted by Michael Coleman
For Everyone,

There has been some interesting guesses on this subject, but not many personal experiences. Please consider these things - #1 WHY, #2 HOW, #3 HOW LONG, #4 LEGACY:

WHY

I stand behind my earlier post on this one. Without proper role models a child doesn't even DREAM about becoming a chosen profession (because they don't identify with that subject). I've seen it happen in my own family.

Michael Coleman

Michael, my old pal

Remember the difficulty in getting accepted into Master Higuichi's dojo (not Genbukan) before meeting Soke Tanamura? I hope that race won't be a factor for anyone to train in Ninpo here or in Japan. In my opinion, many Chinese and Japanese can have the wrong sterotype view of blacks and other races and nationalities just like many Americans. I've supported your training and the school because I felt you were truely gifted, and you have demonstrated that worthiness. Good luck and I hope you will be coming to Chicago soon.

Tim

momotarosan
23rd July 2004, 15:34
Originally posted by Kikbaq
Brazil is definately a safer place...

How so?

JamesGarcia
23rd July 2004, 16:14
Jeesus... Where did this post come from... Never seen it.

Ummm, I have trained and taught many Black people over the years. You have already mentioned Darrel Caldwell, I didn't know Mr. Simien was black, and what about the guy in this pic? I can't remember his name and he has been around forever, he passed the godan with John and I in 90'.

geosync
23rd July 2004, 18:46
Originally posted by JamesGarcia
...what about the guy in this pic? I can't remember his name and he has been around forever, he passed the godan with John and I in 90'.

Mark Davis

Jason Chambers
23rd July 2004, 19:09
Those of you interested in continuing the lecture & lessons on ethnicity will find the listserv at www.swirl.org to be of more interest.

Denkken
23rd July 2004, 19:36
Wow, thats an old pic of Mark.

Dale Seago
24th July 2004, 06:20
Here is (http://www25.brinkster.com/ralphpelisson/seminario_michael.jpg) a recent one of Michael Simien.

Mekugi
24th July 2004, 09:17
Ya gotta copy and past that link to make it work:

http://www25.brinkster.com/ralphpelisson/seminario_michael.jp

I prefere the term "Wonderbread" when being described, and I usually fill that in when they ask my ethnicity in the "Other" category on forms. Caucasian sounds too dull. Needless to say, I will still never, ever-ever-ever-ever understand why the color of someone's skin has to with anything. Makes no sense to me.

adouglasmhor
25th July 2004, 20:58
We have one Pakistani girl one Pakistani Guy and two Grays in out Dojo. Us Grays look nothing like we were portrayed on the X-files.

ElfTengu
29th July 2004, 20:11
I think that there are many reasons why we don't see as many people of Afro-Carribean descent in ninjutsu as in other arts, and the simplest answer is probably that ninjutsu is one of the newest arts on the international scene in terms of public exposure. As our friend mentioned earlier in his experiences with training in an all-Korean dojang, people are put off if they see themselves as a minority, and feel the almost tangible sense of suspicion that so many people have as an inbuilt reaction when meeting anyone that is different to them in some way, be it race (although I personally believe that there is only one race and that is the HUMAN race), religious denomination, gender or sexual orientation.

It takes time and some brave pioneers to tread the path first, and then others will follow.

Also there are many cultural aspects such as (and this is only a small example, not a stereotyping blunder)modern hip-hop culture with all its bling, which lends itself more to visually flashy or sports based martial arts, rather than the traditional, and this goes for all ethnic groups including caucasions.

Sports such as boxing are unquestionably dominated by the black communities of all multi-cultural societies, with a strong tradition of this being in place for almost a century now. Any spin-off from this for people seeking something a little different, is bound to be largely in the direction of arts like kick boxing and full contact karate due to the similarities with boxing.

But that notwithstanding, arts such as traditional karate and judo have been around long enough and are so widespread that they enjoy participation from all cultures and ethnicities.

And kung fu was as cool as disco in the 1970s which is why so many of the Western world's foremeost practitioners of Chinese martial arts are of Afro-Carribean descent. They were the coolest at disco and added much to the coolness of kung fu.

We will see more people in ninjutsu whose ethnicity isn't white european, but it will take time.

My club already has a few long term members from ethnic minority groups and I don't think any of us think "I'm training with a black girl or an Asian guy or a fat Welshman," at any point during a session because we just get on with it. A training partner is simply a human being standing in front of you who will hit you if you don't perform the technique correctly.

If anyone really feels that it is an issue that ninjutsu doesn't attract enough people from different cultural or ethnic communities then all they have to do is promote the art in such communities, and if it means using photos of students from these communities in your posters, then why not if it works?

kenkyusha
29th July 2004, 22:00
Ninja suit. What would be the allure? Not enough patches/crap to attract most young people w/out respect to ethnicity.

While the above is tongue in cheek, as pointed-out in earlier posts, there seems to be a lack of people of color in legitimate Koryu/Gendai arts in general.

It is didn't even occur to me (I'm a mutt), until one of my training partners (who is Jewish), said after a seminar something to the effect of, "wow, seeing nani-nani sensei (also Jewish) makes it feel possible to be that good." Since then, one finds oneself asking: is it helpful to see people of advanced rank/understanding who look like them? Probably not for me, but who knows... in another 10-15 years, there may be a ton of legit afro, latino/a, aboriginal American folks out there. Considering the alternatives (the professors, the self-appointed shihan and soke, the crap artists, or the simply misinformed), one can only hope.

Be wel,
Jigme

william northcote
30th July 2004, 12:57
In our dojo we have a few non white and one black American that has trained with Von Donk and a South African. So I guess it is all a matter of perceiving the way we are, as an open dojo, is bringing in the general community.

Kikbaq
11th August 2004, 22:31
I did not realize that I made such a vague statement when I said Brazil is a safer place, I meant to say: "Now that Shidoshi Simien is there (In Brazil), Brazil is a safer place." The Bujinkan Buyu have a warrior creed, and what I said applied to the creed. It was merely an observation, sorry I did not respond sooner.

Kagemaru
12th October 2004, 05:39
Wow, I can't believed I missed this one. I know this thread is old, but myself being a Ninpo practitioner and being Black, I feel obliged to comment.

Speaking from my own experience, in the early days of Ninjutsu in America (circa 1980-1989) or the "Ninja boom" as it has been called, there seemed to exist an "Old Boys" network of practitioners, and most taikai resembled, for the most part,KKK rallies. As the?@majority of African Americans live in the inner city, they didn't subscribe to the whole "woodsman" ethos, as did most of the Anglo practitioners from the mid-west and other areas where so-called "Authentic"Ninjutsu was being taught. However, in the inner city, where violence is a day to day reality for many people, we had people that exposed us to the concept of the art. One such person, who has been subjected to much ridicule, is Ron Duncan. Yes, Ron Duncan.

Despite what has been said about the man, and some of the faults with his organization, Ron Duncan is a martial artist worthy of respect in terms of his ability. He has always stated that Ninjutsu was an artform developed by the Japanese, and inherently belonged to them. He called himself a practical practitioner of the art known as Ninjutsu or Shinobi no jutsu.

As an ex-student of his system and derivatives of it, and as a current student of Genbukan Ninpo directly under Tanemura sensei, I can honestly say that the things I learned while with O-sensei Duncan have been totally transferrable to what I am doing now. Moreover, in terms of realism and sel-defense application, I would say that the training I recieved in his system was superior in some ways. I do not mean that as any dis-respect against my current teacher, and I know for a fact that when Tanemura sensei was training himself back in the days, the training was much more real. But as far as time and place is concerned, the training I recieved at that time in that place was more realistic to what one would encounter during a real situation that what I am doing now. It is because of that training that I can fully appreciate the applicability of what I am doing now with having to really do it, because I know what works and how it should work. I think for many people coming into the Genbukan today, that is an element of training that is lacking. So even though that person may be a 4th or 5th dan, and can quote all kinds of Ninpo history, in a real situation that person's skill might fail them because they have never had the psychological aspect of the training to compliment the physical application. Knowing how to deal with fear, knowing how to work through pain and diress, knowing how to modify a roll so it can be applyied on concrete or gravel, these are all things that I learned while with Duncan.

So in conclusion, I would like to say thank you to an African American role model, a great martial artist who I think represented the concept and philosophies of Ninjutsu to the best of his ability, and a good Marine, O'sensei Ron Duncan.


Tony Villanueva
Genbukan Zensho Dojo-cho

ElfTengu
12th October 2004, 08:58
Hi Tony,

In typical e-budo form I think you're likely to receive a barrage of comments regarding the authenticity of Ronald Duncan's ninjutsu, and very little comment on your other extremely valid comments on the relationship between inner city and rural dwellers' general ethnicity and the way this links to ninpo. I hadn't thought of that, but this is probably because all the British ninpo clubs are in towns and cities and not at mountain/woodland retreats, therefore there is equal opportunity for people of all cultural backgrounds to become aware of local ninpo clubs, they just choose not to participate, possibly for some of the reasons I suggested before.

Now for two questions that your last post posed:

1. I have heard (and read on this forum) that the Japanese public tend to exhibit greater xenophobia towards black people than towards other gaikokujin. Have you found this to be the case and if so, how do you deal with it?

2. What is Tanemura sensei's opinion of your involvement with Ronald Duncan and of the authenticity of his methods? (This should prevent some of the barrage)

Cheers,

Kikbaq
13th October 2004, 04:04
I know of several Bujinkan Shidoshi who have had urban located Dojo, for some quite awhile, including Oakland, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, NYC, Chicago, Houston, etc. I would like to believe that ethnicity has never been an issue. I have had a 10 hour drive to and from my teacher(who used to live in the same town as I do)for the last 5 years. I think that it boils down to how badly you wish to learn, and what resources are within your means. I agree that there are times when the battle hits closer to home and we need as direct a source as possible.

"Anecdotally",I had a fifteen year wait for a Bujinkan instructor to come to my area, so I can certainly understand that other places may have been more deserving of a ninjutsu instructor than my area, as we in the Lane County area did not have severe criminal violence and gang activity until primarily the last decade or so.
What I did realize is that if I wanted to make the trek, other dojo were a car's drive away.

Kikbaq
13th October 2004, 04:15
Also, out of curiosity; What is a "woodsman" ethos, and I was under the impression that Anglo is an outdated term used to describe a white person from ancient Britain. Again I am geniunely curious, because I am not familiar with the terms. Thank you for your time.

Tamdhu
14th October 2004, 18:19
I, for one, am very glad to hear something positive from someone who has trained with Ron Duncan. I've never met the man myself, but it seems very clear to me when I look at his site that he has a lot of very devoted students who clearly enjoy and get a lot from the training he provides. That is the most important thing of all in my book, and tells me that his heart is in the right place.

Gambatte ne!

Tamdhu
14th October 2004, 18:25
Also, out of curiosity; What is a "woodsman" ethos, and I was under the impression that Anglo is an outdated term used to describe a white person from ancient Britain.

Funny, I had no problem whatsoever in understanding what he was getting at.

If you're offended by his choice of terms, then say so, and we can all have a good cry together!

Kikbaq
15th October 2004, 03:14
I doubt that the KKK would allow themselves to be taught by a middle aged Japanese man for one.

I hate to tell this guy, this is a Japanese martial art, not an ANGLO one. It wasn't some secret racist conspiracy to prevent all of one ethnicity from learning a martial art.

Yes I am offended by his racist remarks, but I am a big boy (or ol' boy I guess)and I'll live.

Kagemaru
15th October 2004, 06:56
Mr. Aitken,


I know of several Bujinkan Shidoshi who have had urban located Dojo, for some quite awhile, including Oakland, San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, NYC, Chicago, Houston, etc. I would like to believe that ethnicity has never been an issue. I have had a 10 hour drive to and from my teacher(who used to live in the same town as I do)for the last 5 years. I think that it boils down to how badly you wish to learn, and what resources are within your means. I agree that there are times when the battle hits closer to home and we need as direct a source as possible.

I am not sure how long you have been training, and I say this with no disrespectful intent. But when I started training in Ninjutsu (or facsimile thereof) I was just old enough to get a junior liscense. In other words I was fifteen years old, going on sixteen. Add to that the fact that, as I said, I grew up in the inner city, and needless to say most adults didn't own a car, much less a teen-ager.
Also, we didn't have the funds or resources available to travel by train for ten hours or whatever to the nearest "authentic" Ninja school. So we went with what was accessible to us, as you stated. Duncan sensei used to let students who couldn't afford classes clean up the dojo or hand out flyers on a saturday, or do other odd jobs to pay for classes.



I hate to tell this guy, this is a Japanese martial art, not an ANGLO one. It wasn't some secret racist conspiracy to prevent all of one ethnicity from learning a martial art.

Allow "this guy" to retort. Whether you feel comfortable accepting this fact or not, America has always been racist, was built on racism, and although progress IS being made, we still have a ways to go before we can say that society has been purged of this cancerous disease called "Racism". Again, I don't know how long you have been doing this, but in the 80's I can tell you with no remiss that a group of young Blacks and Hispanics from the "hood" would not have been too warmly recieved by the average white (or Caucasian, or European American, or whatever term is "Politically Correct" these days) Ninjutsu instructor from the southern or mid-western states of America. I lived in Texas and visited some of the places in question, such as Wisconson, Oregon, Montana, and some of these places during that era, and I can tell you from first hand experience that I was definately reminded of my ethnicity by the people in those locales, and that's wording it nicely. If I am wrong about that, then it leads back to the original question, where are all the African American high ranking instructors? If there was no discrimination, there should be at least ten from that era. Where are they? If you say it boils down to how bad you want it, are we to believe that there wasn't any African-Americans with the drive and ambition to make it? Are we all that lazy? Yet if you go back you can clearly see that is the not case, as there are many African American martial art pioneers that thrived in other arts. So that would lead one to believe that it was not as "open" to everyone as you say.

The reason why the "authentic" Ninja instructors went to the area's I described and not to the inner city boils down to sheer demographics, and good business sense. If Hayes sensei, for example, wanted to build an empire, he would need revenue, That means he has to target a demographic that can afford to pay for taikai's, which includes insurance for participants, and to fly his teacher over from Japan, pay his teacher, open dojo's (read businesses), pay Federation dues, buy videos and training manuals, not to mention his books, and so on. It doesn't take an econimics major to see that it makes more sense to go where the money is. In America, the land of the "have's" and the "have nots" those that have always discriminate against those that have not. This is a matter of class. When you add to this the issue of race, you can quickly realize the reason why Blacks were not openly accepted in the early Ninjutsu circles. Being in the "real Ninja" schools at that time was like being in the "In-club". This is not specific to Ninjutsu, but rather it is an element and by product of a capitalist society, and the American way.

If my use of the term "Anglo" has offended you sir, then I sincerly apologize. As you may be aware of, socially acceptable terminology changes. In the sixties we were Negroes (or Nigger), then we became Colored, then Black, and now we are African American. Again, I mean you or no one else any disrespect. One of the greatest things that I gained from training with Duncan sensei and his black belts, was the chance to meet people of different races, white included, who didn't look at me different because I was Black, but treated me as a brother in arms because we trained under the same instructor, who himself also happened to be Black. Some of these people I still consider my brother to this day, twenty years later. I Hope that answers your question.


Now, on the the next question. Mr. Hurley:



1. I have heard (and read on this forum) that the Japanese public tend to exhibit greater xenophobia towards black people than towards other gaikokujin. Have you found this to be the case and if so, how do you deal with it?


Yeah, as you know Japan went through a long period of seclusion, so they have had a hard time accepting foreigners. While they have, unfortunately, imported some of the racist doctrines of white supremacy along with their quest to Westernize, they remain for the most part "equal opportunity racist". That is to say, they don't discriminate differently against westerners of different color. A gaijin is a gaijin, pretty much. However, as a matter of class, most families would feel more comfortable if a white foreigner married their daughter than if a Black one did, simply because the public opinion in the First World is that white people are more affluent.

As for how I deal with it, fortunately I can say that I have NEVER felt anything but compassion for all human beings, and incredible patience, from my instructor Tanemura sensei. As for the rest of the populace I fall back on my childhood training from my mother. When I was a child, I went to a private school, and I was one of the only Black kids there, andI would get teased and called names daily. When I would come home feeling blue, my mom would always tell me to be proud of who I am, and to carry myself with self-respect, and as long as I had that, no one could take it away from me. It all boils down to knowledge of self. If you know for a fact you are a carrot, no one can convince you that you are a tomato, right?


2. What is Tanemura sensei's opinion of your involvement with Ronald Duncan and of the authenticity of his methods? (This should prevent some of the barrage)

When I met Tanemura sensei, I was still a student of my old instructor. At that taikai, I was determined to show my purest spirit in training. We trained hard in the old dojo, and we didn't fatigue quickly. I gave him 150% percent at the taikai. He asked me to demonstrate some techniques at the taikai, and what I did was very effective. He apreciated it. He said to me "you had a good teacher". That was it. He never brought it up again, and neither did I. I think he never felt threatened by Duncan or any other Ninja practitioner, so he didn't feel the need to comment. It was the American "sensei's" that always felt a need to degrade the man, even though he had been teaching and training longer than many of them have been alive. That said alot to me about Tanemura sensei, which is why I decided to join his organization. It also said alot to me about the other "sensei's".

I hope this helps clear things up.

Peace.

Tony Villanueva
Genbukan Zensho Dojo

ElfTengu
15th October 2004, 13:06
Cheers Tony,

Ronald Duncan is obviously worthy of more respect than many other non-Takamatsuden ninjutsu teachers, even if the Japanese lineage of his style in terms of it being 'ninjutsu' is open to more scrutiny.

As long as we don't get followers of Ashida Kim jumping in and making similar claims, because that would just be too much to bear!

I like to think of myself as a Celt by the way, and not in any superior way, it just seems to link my Scots and Irish ancestry and the three generations that my family have been effectively English in terms of where we live. But in terms of legal nationality I'm British, although eligible for Irish citizenship.

There's nothing wrong with cultural identity until it causes problems in the greater whole of a multicultural society, and peace can only then ensue if culture becomes secondary to citizenship.

bu-kusa
15th October 2004, 13:23
im not even gonna get onto the poor lil me victim line this guy seems to be on, but

a) mr duncan has no training in any ryu-ha ninjutsu or aki-jutsu
he may be affective and a lovely bloke who bakes cookies for kids and maybe hes a bad !!! secret kumite winner but he is not a ninjutsu soke, simple!

why to people try to be things there not, you dont see the SBG guys pretending to be anything other then what they are, damm effective street/sport martial artists!

Kagemaru
15th October 2004, 20:38
im not even gonna get onto the poor lil me victim line this guy seems to be on

First of all, I don't see myself as a victim, I am a survivor. I am blessed, because I am living in Japan and training with one of the last grandmasters of the art I have chosen to pursue, as a direct student. It is a far, far cry from were I was raised, and I give credit to the influences of those who helped put me on the path that lead me to where I am today.

Obviously, you have no idea about the challenges we face because you are not one of us. How do you know where I'm at when you haven't been where I been, understand where I'm coming from?


a) mr duncan has no training in any ryu-ha ninjutsu or aki-jutsu

One question. have you ever trained with him, or even spoken to him personally? If not, then quite frankly you are not qualified to make that judgement. As long as I trained with him, he never claimed to be a Soke of Ninjutsu. He is a Soke of his own system, which is called "Way of the Winds" and which is influenced by the precepts of Ninjutsu, along with other arts and military concepts. Why don't you ask him if you really want to know?

People have called him the "Father of American Ninjutsu" because he was teaching his system and introduced the concept of the "Ninja" before any of the Kans existed. Whether it was "authentic" is not my argument. Let me say this though. Musashi was never born a Samurai, and never trained in any traditional Ryu-ha. He was self taught. Hendrix taught himself how to play the guitar. My grandfather was a self-taught carpenter who also taught himself how to read, and has made a living building houses for the past 40 years. What's my point? If you can't figure it out on your own, then maybe YOU had better ask somebody.

I won't lower myself by arguing with anybody about this, because as I have stated, this thread is very old, and I know from experience that no matter what is said, someone will always have something negative to say. To each his own. I have what was given to me, and it has taken me this far. I plan to keep going on my path. Good luck on yours.

Peace,
Tony Villanueva
Genbukan Zensho Dojo

BigJon
15th October 2004, 21:48
People have called him the "Father of American Ninjutsu" because he was teaching his system and introduced the concept of the "Ninja" before any of the Kans existed

HORSE FEATHERS!

WindDemon
16th October 2004, 02:03
Originally posted by Jon G.
HORSE FEATHERS!

When Hayes was not even in the martial arts and the bujinkan was not yet bujunkan. Tanemura was still a student under Hatsumi and Duncan was teaching his system and exposing America and the world to weaponry and the art of the ninja. Go read some old martial arts magazines compare some dates and see who's on the headlines.

My first experience with a ninjutsu instructor just happened to be in the now closed "New York Budo" of the Bujinkan.
The instructor at the time just happened to be an African American with glasses, his name slips my mind at the moment. I had already read Hatsumi's book "the essence of ninjutsu" and was determined to become part of the group. I was greeted well but when he saw my patch that read "nindo ryu" the treatment changed and I was not impressed with the brown belts performance. I was a white belt at the time a broke their balance everytime and they did not know how to break falls. Every one there was of fair skin, with the exception of me and the instructor.

Afterwards I found Duncan's Dojo above an active GUN RANGE and had to pass a series of interviews. He saw my patch that read "nindoryu" and said only one thing about that. He said you better work hard when you put my patch on. This group was mixed with Italian and Irish cops, Indian american and Latin american service men and African american corrections officers plus more.

From the first day I was given a handshake from everyone in the class that saw my "FRESH FACE" As I was one of who could not afford the lessons let alone the weapons and uniform I was offerd a uniform free of charge from the class mates after two weeks of torturous uke duty.

I say it depends on what area you look at. Here in the east there are many more African American and like myself Afrolatin martial artists practicing openly. I dont see many White American martial artist and thought they were minority practitioners.:D heh, heh, heh.. I was surprised to see some AfricanCanadian practitioners up in Ottawa among the mixed Canadian groups!

It is all subject to the population and what they can AFFORD, I think! In sensei David James's class who is African American himself and the inheritor of Vee Arnis Jitsu from the late Profesor Florendo Visitacion and considerd to be one of the worlds best Knife fighting instructors, the majority of his students are all White Americans. Needless to say his fee is a bit upthere and he is situated in the heart of the World Trade Center and Wall Street.

Kikbaq
16th October 2004, 03:36
Mr. Villanueva, or Tony if you prefer,

I would like to let you know know that we have alot in common. I started my Bujinkan training when I was 15 years old, I had no car and no support sytem after school hours, my little brother and I pretty much had raised eachother and we lived with a drug-abusing father, while we only seen our mother a few times a year. I too consider myself a survivor and far from a victim.

I dont know what it is like to be African American and I never will, but I defintaly lived the definition of poor white trash. I never accepted pity and I worked really hard. I couldnt get a job until I was 17, so I did everything "legally" possible to keep myself training and to reserve hope for my future.

It has been a long hard road for myself, as well as our training group, but I really need what I get from our training. I am extremely thankful the one of my dojo classmates moved back here this year. We are both Shodan and we have both essentially been training 8 years. For the last 4-5 years he had lived about three hours closer than I did to our Shidoshi. And for all of us currently in the group, it is financially difficult and time consuming to get regular training in with him. But it is worth every moment we get to train with him. In the last few years we have worked extra hard to time a road trip in conjunction with the Stockton seminars and the Buyu Camps, I have never yet been to a Taikai or had the pleasure of visiting Japan, but I will when the time is right for me. I like all of us have to balance our training with the rest of our lives.

I truly received the impression in your earlier post that you were bashing white practioners of our respective arts, I sincerely apologize for the way that I received it. I have never had anybody apologize for a statement before. Thank you for appreciating my feelings on that matter, as I sincerely appreciate yours.

I think that the Genbukan and Way of the Winds Dojo did not go wrong by having you aboard. I really hope I can someday represent the Bujinkan with the sincerity that you give to your Kan.

As far as America goes, I think that you are very accurate about the "haves" and "have nots", but I am a very fortunate "have not" in my opinion, and the one thing that I feel purpose for is our training.

Thank you for your time.

Kagemaru
16th October 2004, 17:04
Well said Chris. You are right, we do have alot in common, and that is the beauty of the martial arts, in that it helps us to realize that, and in so doing we are able to focus on our similarities and not our differences, and live more harmonious lives.

If you ever get the chance to come to Japan, and are in the Tokyo/Saitama area, send me an e-mail and I will try to facilitate your transition in any way that I can.

Take Care, Good Luck, and Good Skill.

Sincerly,

Tony Villanueva
Genbukan Zensho Dojo.

Kikbaq
16th October 2004, 21:14
Thank you sir, it would be an honor to run into you over there.

bu-kusa
18th October 2004, 11:14
''As an ex-student of his system and derivatives of it, and as a current student of Genbukan Ninpo directly under Tanemura sensei, I can honestly say that the things I learned while with O-sensei Duncan have been totally transferrable to what I am doing now. Moreover, in terms of realism and sel-defense application, I would say that the training I recieved in his system was superior in some ways. ''

As a Genbukan student publically saying that a made up system is superior in self protection isn't exactly what i would call a 'polite move'

as long as your happy fine, but as you yourself has stated mr duncan has no training linage in any ninpo ryu-ha, therefore not ninjutsu/tai-jutsu etc end of story.

bu-kusa
18th October 2004, 11:28
i may of seemed a little over harsh but i do not see what mr duncan teaches as having any relavence to 'true ninpo' as regards to the ethnic issue, all i can say is that it must be very different in the USA thenit is in england, my first dojo was roughly 40/50 mix and my major regular training partner was also non-white? who is still a friend. i did not mean to belittle your experiences. but the comments about Tanemura's sensei's arts not being as efffective as mr duncans, did indeed 'rattle my cage' im sorry if i caused offense.
having said that, if people truly want to learn they will do, eventually we are all training under people from japan, im sure when mr hayes & mr chambers first went over to japan to learn from mr hatsumi and Tanemura sensei they felt 'out of place', it didnt stop them learning!
again sorry if my initial post seemed over harsh, offense was not intended.

Kreth
18th October 2004, 16:58
Originally posted by WindDemon
When Hayes was not even in the martial arts and the bujinkan was not yet bujunkan. Tanemura was still a student under Hatsumi and Duncan was teaching his system and exposing America and the world to weaponry and the art of the ninja. Go read some old martial arts magazines compare some dates and see who's on the headlines.
Your claim, you prove it. Provide a scan of a magazine article, complete with date, with Duncan teaching, and the techniques described as "ninjitsu." Go ahead, I dare you.

Jeff

bu-kusa
19th October 2004, 09:02
'' Villanueva sensei began training in Ninjutsu in 1985 directly under Shihan Felix Vazquez (Circle of One System), and indirectly through Shihan Vazquez’s teacher O’Sensei Ronald Duncan (Way of the Winds System), and remained a student for thirteen years until he joined Genbukan in 1998. ''

- from Mr Villanueva own website.

I have no argument with anybody, and will be my last post on the subject.

Again i am sincerly sorry if my absent comment to Mr Vilanueva caused any offense to him, as a member of the Genbukan i hold him in the highest respect, i miss speed read his post and mistook him for a indie/koga etc troll.
I only whish to point out that the circle of one system is not the equal to ANY of The Xkans.

good luck and good training to everyone here.

Kagemaru
20th October 2004, 09:39
Thank you Mr. Greaves. I respect your opinion. However, let me just say this in closing. By quoting only a portion of what I said in your prior post, it is very easy to take what I said out of it's context. Allow me to put it back in it's proper perspective.

In the military you have four main branches of service. Ex-military guys will sometimes come to blows over whose branch of service is better, but in reality no one branch of service is better than the next. What differentiates them are what they specialize in. If I was the president and I wanted someone assassinated, for example, I wouldn't call on the Coast Guard. Or more specifically, if I needed an insertion team to execute a Hi Altitude/Lo-Opening insertion into frigid water, roundevouz with a sub, and enter into hostile country through territorial water using a Swimmer Delivery Vehicle, I wouldn't call on Delta Force for that, I'd call on a SEaL unit.

My point is, it's not what you do, it's how you do it. When it comes to doing the kind of work that calls on you to utilize your martial art training in the face of a clear and present danger, Duncan has done it, many of his black belts, including Vazquez, have done it, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, TANEMURA SENSEI HAS DONE IT. However, with the exception of a few that I have met, many people in Genbukan have not had to do it. So from that perspective their ability to transmit what would really work , or I should say how it really works in a real situation, is limited.

As a system, there is nothing that needs to be added or taken away from Tanemura Soke's teachings. It is complete unto itself. My statement is not about what is learned, it is about how well it can be used effectively in a real encounter, and the methodology of practice for practical use.

If I thought there was anything but the highest level or Martial Art to be learned from my teacher, I would not have up-rooted my life, and left my family and loved ones behind to move all the way across the planet to train with him. But as devout students, I think it is critical that all of us in the Genbukan avoid the temptation to delve into fanaticism about our art. In many ways I see the kans and other martial arts systems as being very similiar to religions. Initially, religion was a good thing, but as you can see by turning on your TV that taken to fanatic extreme what you believe can become distorted, and very dangerous. Not all Muslims are bad, but it only takes a few and a little bit of C4. No matter what your belief system is, there is nothing wrong with looking at other belief systems and extracting the value from it. It doen't mean you will convert, but perhaps you can learn to appreciate and respect the other for what it's worth.

In my Dojo in L.A. I use to dedicate one night to self defense, in which I would allow students to try and experiment with different situations to see how they would use what they were learning in the street. When your out there, there is usually no time to assume any Kamae, and the attacker is not going to give you any opportunity to apply your technique. So you have to know what to do if you meet someone with boxing experience, and he is pumping that jab into your face every half second. In a case like that, I can tell you from experience that it's not going to work like it did last Tuesday night in the dojo. If students learn how to modify the techniques once they have learned the proper way to do them according to the syllabus, they will truly understand them, and truly own them.

That is what I meant.

If anyone thinks that Circle of One or Way of the Winds is useless garbage, then that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. As I stated before I have what was given to me, and it has yet to fail me, and each day Tanemura Soke adds to it. And I will be forever grateful to him as I am to those who came into my life before him to impart their knowledge upon me. I am at peace, and I wish you the same.

Tony Villanueva
Genbukan Zensho Dojo

bu-kusa
20th October 2004, 11:01
Thank you too mr Tony Villanueva,
Your beliefs seem to be very similar to mine, in regards to how to approach the difference between kata kumite/randori and shinken. i fully respect your opinion, and can definatly see what you mean by experience being the best guide and simulated experience being the next best thing.
I look foreward to meeting you in the future when i eventually get to japan if your still there,
Many thanks for the explaination,

Kreth
20th October 2004, 20:16
Originally posted by Kreth
Your claim, you prove it. Provide a scan of a magazine article, complete with date, with Duncan teaching, and the techniques described as "ninjitsu." Go ahead, I dare you.

Jeff
Due to the resounding silence, I guess we can consider this claim dead in the water. :rolleyes:

Jeff

drizzt777
21st October 2004, 17:14
Two of my best friends in the Bujinkan are black. My best friend is one of them and he is also my training partner. (He's found he can best utilize the system of Koto Ryu as well! This is evident when he punches you!)

Anyway, I've met many people from all walks of life and culture in the Bujinkan. You see, that's the beauty of it....no matter who you are or where you come from, if you have the right HEART you can belong to the family.

God Bless,