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O'Neill
9th December 2002, 18:06
Does anyone have this book that can do a review of it? How many photos? Is it true aikijujutsu? Thank you in advance.

Erin O'Neill

Daito
10th December 2002, 05:27
Aikido no Ogi - by Yoshimaru Keisatsu, 371 pages

I've brought this issue while training under Kimura sensei this year. Mr.Keisatsu have studied under Sagawa Yukiyoshi sensei from 1961 to 1974/5. He was also ranked in Gojuryu. He left Sagawa Dojo and trained Chen Taiji, then joined Yamamoto-den Daito-ryu, where he became kyojudairi.
The book advertises Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu 1st and 2nd Gen. It seems Mr.Keisatsu's memory fades, since many techniques in the book are not correct Sagawa-ha Daitoryu, neither the names of waza.

The first part (p.28-134) deals with Aiki-Kempo, however it is not Aiki-kempo as formed by Sagawa sensei. It is Mr.Keisatsu's own development, which he calls Goshinken. Aiki-kempo is different.

Next part (p.136-222) is explaining Aikiage, and some variations, however Kimura sensei warned everyone here that the explanation of Mr.Keisatsu is not only completely wrong, but even "dangerous" in sense that if one follows it then one's improvement of Aiki or Daitoryu would stop. It's the same for previous 3 books of Mr.Keisatsu.

The last part (224-358) shows Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, however the structure (names, number of waza, etc) of both 1st and 2nd Gen are not correct. The form (or appearance) of waza are correct to some extend.

The great value of the book is in Sagawa sensei's sayings. This book has really a lot of them. From this point the book is worth buying.

I base all this on information I've received from Kimura sensei in Japan, November this year.

Regarding photos: not all mentioned waza appear on photos in this book, since the author wrote "Aikido no Kagaku" before, and many waza of the 1st Gen were shown there.
Personally I think that "Aikido no Ougi" is quite good in regards to form/outlook of Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, yet again I must emphasize this very important point: explanations given by the author are not related to Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu. They are based on Mr. Keisatsu's own observations and thinking, which resulted in his own theory on Aiki and waza.

Paul Wollos

Chris Li
10th December 2002, 06:44
Originally posted by Daito
The book advertises Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu 1st and 2nd Gen. It seems Mr.Keisatsu's memory fades, since many techniques in the book are not correct Sagawa-ha Daitoryu, neither the names of waza.

Of course in 30 years things may have changed...


Originally posted by Daito
The first part (p.28-134) deals with Aiki-Kempo, however it is not Aiki-kempo as formed by Sagawa sensei. It is Mr.Keisatsu's own development, which he calls Goshinken. Aiki-kempo is different.

That's true, he also notes that fact in the book.


Originally posted by Daito
The great value of the book is in Sagawa sensei's sayings. This book has really a lot of them. From this point the book is worth buying.

There are a whole lot of quotes from Sagawa in the book, complete with dates that the quotes were made. Some of the quotes are repeated multiple times, which can get a little annoying, however, many of the quotes are quite interesting.


Originally posted by Daito
Personally I think that "Aikido no Ougi" is quite good in regards to form/outlook of Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu, yet again I must emphasize this very important point: explanations given by the author are not related to Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu. They are based on Mr. Keisatsu's own observations and thinking, which resulted in his own theory on Aiki and waza.

I enjoyed this book, and his other ones. Right or wrong, the books more or less present his theories and the results of his research in a fairly reasoned manner, and he makes some interesting points.

Best,

Chris

Nathan Scott
10th December 2002, 08:21
Mr. Wollos,

When you say "Yamamoto-den", do you mean the Daito ryu as taught by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi? Just curious.

Thanks for the review though guys. Saves me some translation time!

Chris Li
10th December 2002, 08:31
Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Mr. Wollos,

When you say "Yamamoto-den", do you mean the Daito ryu as taught by Yamamoto Kakuyoshi? Just curious.

Thanks for the review though guys. Saves me some translation time!

I'm not Mr. Wollos, but yes - that's the one.

Best,

Chris

Daito
12th December 2002, 06:18
Hello,

Thank you for your reply, Chris.

Kimura sensei also said that things could change, and that Gen could be different long time ago, but also since Mr.Keisatsu have been gone for so long, it could be that his memory is not accurate. In addition, he trained Yamamoto-den Daitoryu (yes, the one taught by Mr.Yamamoto Kakuyoshi), so it could be that some waza he mixed-up. Yamamoto-den and Sagawa-ha share some similarities in outlook of some waza forms.

It's also important to add that Mr.Keisatsu formed his own system known as Aiki-Rentaikai, where he teaches 1st and 2nd Gen of Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu (that's what he advertises in "Hiden" magazine).

Chris, thank you for your help, since my Japanese is really bad.

sincerely,

Paul

O'Neill
13th December 2002, 20:41
What is gen? That is interesting, is it unique to sagawa ha?

O'Neill
13th December 2002, 20:44
You mean that the author trained with Sagawa sensei that long and never grasped aiki age? That is strange indeed. Sometimes when ones leaves a group, they become "wrong". Not to flame (never my intention) a great group like sagawa ha but it does seem strange that he wouldn't understand aiki age. When did kimura sensei train with sagwa sensei?

Daito
14th December 2002, 05:22
Hello

Sagawa sensei arranged Daito-ryu techniques into 10 Gen, each gen about 200-250 waza. "Gen" - being explained as "source" or the "root". So one starts with ichigen (1st gen) and progresses from there on. However, everything from nigen on is taught on personal basis, being available only to those who are permitted to learn particular gen.

Kimura sensei studied under Sagawa sensei for about 20 years. He has been taught all 10 gen by Sagawa sensei.

It is very possible to study even 40 years and be unable to do Aiki. Since the core of Aiki-age is Aiki, then off-course it's difficult to grasp it. In Sagawa-ha Aiki-age and Aiki in general is completely different from any other Daito-ryu. Today, only Kimura sensei is able to do waza with Aiki, although all students are very capable. However, to capture the essence of Aiki-age is very difficult, although it is the first technique taught in Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu.

Additionally, Sagawa sensei taught in the same way as Takeda Sokaku sensei: very secretive. Oral instruction was seldom given. Sagawa sensei emphasized that Aiki must be felt, and even if one is told what Aiki is, still one would not be able to capture it.

It all sounds confusing or even unbelievable, however this is the way things are in Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu.

Regards,

Paul

Dan Harden
14th December 2002, 12:41
It is very possible to study even 40 years and be unable to do Aiki. Since the core of Aiki-age is Aiki, then off-course it's difficult to grasp it. In Sagawa-ha Aiki-age and Aiki in general is completely different from any other Daito-ryu. Today, only Kimura sensei is able to do waza with Aiki, although all students are very capable. However, to capture the essence of Aiki-age is very difficult, although it is the first technique taught in Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu.

****************************

I have heard much the same thing from a different source. This alone has verified Mr. Wallos's experiences for me. I appreciate and applaud the first sentence above all.
It concerns me not that people do not understand the differences in Aiki and why there are people who have been in systems for years who are basically "less than" their fellow adepts. Further, that there are complete systems that are deeper than others.
Sagawa Dojo is very high level Aiki.
Most consider it the best in the world.
In the strangest of circumstance the one who is currently most popular is generally considered to have only mediocre understanding of Aiki by most, even considered to be low level in Aiki by some other Daito ryu styles out there. Though they are hopeful this will change over time and they support the effort.

Aiki has nothing to do with rank, or time in. It takes decades of sweat and some people just don't get it.
Even then, not all can "use it" outside of a dojo.

So yet another (of the small number of people who have felt it) who voice that Sagawa Aiki is the best in the world.
Very daring commentary Paul!
You will at once be considered a fool, inexperienced, or ignorant along with a host of other views.
Hold on, very shortly I am sure you will hear from people who think he was low level after visiting the dojo.
I have found that over the years- feeling the technique of a host of Aikidos top men in the world, and then four different styles of Aikijujutsu doesn't allow for many agreement of opinions here-but has at least led me to various conclusions.
Stay your course
cheers
Dan

Chris Li
14th December 2002, 21:13
Originally posted by Dan Harden
Sagawa Dojo is very high level Aiki.

I agree.


Originally posted by Dan Harden
Most consider it the best in the world.

I think that most people have never seen Sagawa dojo's stuff, because the dojo has historically been so closed :).

Anyway, question for Paul - Yoshimaru Keisetsu lists himself as "Chokuden hachi-gen, okuden yon-dan". I understand the "gen" rankings, but does that mean that there is (or was) a seperate dan ranking structure at Sagawa dojo?

Best,

Chris

Dan Harden
15th December 2002, 14:18
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dan Harden
Most consider it the best in the world.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think that most people have never seen Sagawa dojo's stuff, because the dojo has historically been so closed

Chris Li


********************************

I was reffering to those of us who I know have experienced it. "Most" have repeated the same comments about its superiority.

Dan

Daito
16th December 2002, 05:48
Hello,

Regarding Gen and Dan:

There is a structure of 10 Dan ranks within Sagawa Dojo. Yet, it doesn't go together with Gen. The highest rank awarded in Sagawa Dojo (to best of my still limited knowledge) is Okuden Yondan.
Perhaps because nobody really cared about dan rank, but they all wanted to learn as many Gen as possible.
The practice of Gen was/is closed to only those, who were allowed to learn particular Gen.

Mr.Keisatsu states that he has learnt 8th Gen...This I cannot discuss publicly.

Dan,

I sincerely thank yuo for your support. I know I am already being criticized, but it doesn't matter to me. I simply don't care.
What's most important for me is training, understanding even a little of these wonderful techniques, and... training again.

And, as Dan stated, I will always second:
Sagawa-ha Daito-ryu Aiki is the best in the world.

More daring statement:
The students there are above the commonly understood/known level of any Daito-ryu.
They work real hard. For so many years they repeat 6 basics for 2-hour long class. Every time. It takes real perseverance to do it.

Paul

O'Neill
16th December 2002, 14:25
I too have long held the belief that noone could match what the sagawa dojo had to offer, based on several things but I also have another question. Can Sagawa ha daito ryu be considered a seperate form of aikibujutsu now, considering the "gen" system and since it has changed over the years? Do they still faithfully teach hiden mokuroku, hien ogi,etc?

Perhaps it is now sagawa ryu aikibujutsu? Certainly he would have been qualified to form his own method. Not that he did, but is his version of the art so far removed from other lines that it is no longer daito ryu? I only ask this out of curiousity and mean no disrespect.

Daito
17th December 2002, 05:51
I don't think Sagawa-ha Daitoryu is a separate system. Rather the opposite. Sagawa sensei has fathfully taught Daito-ryu preserving the teaching method as well as waza to what he's been learning from Takeda sensei.
To give example of one basic waza: Ikkajo - the elbow is lifted and arm of opponent is folded. This is said to be the technique Takeda sensei used. It is similar to what we see in today's aikido and also in souden of Takumakai. Kodokai (although not stressing on locks) also uses this method. However it opposes the one taught in Daitokan (ippondori). Takeda sensei taught atemi to beginners for each waza, but Sagawa sensei stopped doing this. Takeda sensei said "Ikkajo is also Aiki", and Sagawa sensei spent many years to understand how to do Aiki in Ikkajo.
When Sagawa sensei was about 70 years old he has invented another method of Aiki, allowing him to throw people instantly on contact. This was the major change.
I don't know how Takeda sensei taught, but Sagawa sensei said about learning Gen's from Takeda sensei, while talking how much it costed in old times. So maybe the order of waza differs, but all waza are based on Takeda sensei's teachings it seems. However I may be wrong about it. Nobody knows how Takeda sensei's waza really looked like. It is quite pointless to say the word "mainline" today, since the system of aikibudo was designed by Takeda sensei's son, and the waza were changed along with some of the names. We simply cannot tell what Daitoryu was in times of Takeda sensei. There is a lot of material of Sagawa sensei' sayings in "Toumeina Chikara", the book written by Kimura sensei.
Many people in Japan (and hopefully abroad) are convinced that the most complete/faithful Daitoryu system preserved in our times is Sagawa-ha Daitoryu indeed.
The name Sagawa-ha was not always used. Sagawa Dojo's name was (and still is): Seiden Daito-ryu Aikibujutsu So-Hombu.

Again, about mokuroku/densho: there is no branch of Daitoryu that teaches accordingly to densho. Takeda sensei never taught this way either. So Hiden Mokuroku, Hiden Ougi, etc, are just what they are: densho showing the curriculum of the art.

Paul

O'Neill
17th December 2002, 16:40
Thank you for the valuable post and info.

Nathan Scott
10th January 2003, 05:45
Since Keisetsu Yoshimaru's publications are becoming a popular subject recently (though some have been around for 10 years now), I thought I'd post a loose translation of the bio he provides for himself in the back of his books. Keep in mind though that these are what he claims, and may or may not be completely accurate:

1950 - Received a shodan in Judo.

1951 - Trained in Goju ryu karate-do. Senbukan Honbu Shihan-dai, Yondan.

1961 - Trained with the Seiden Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Sohan [Sagawa]. Jikiden hachigen [true transmission 8th gen], Okuden [inner transmission] Yondan.

1976 - Quit Sagawa dojo, began training in Tai Chi.

1994 - Trained in Yamamoto Kakuyoshi (Kyoju Dairi) Daito ryu Aikijujutsu [aka: Yamamoto-den] under Sato Kinbei sensei (Kyoju Dairi).

1998 - Received Kyoju Dairi in Daito ryu Aikijujutsu [Yamamoto-den].

FWIW,

megan
2nd August 2004, 16:18
I have several books on daito ryu and am curious if anyone has these?
I would love your opinion on the technical contents. I have heard people from the sagawa camp knock his understanding of "aiki but am leary of this, as he left their group to join the yammamoto-den.

I wanted to know if the books contain many techniques and if they look like standard daito ryu? If they only show techniques that
offer something new, then I'll purchase them. I have much of the material from Kondo and Okamoto sensei, would these be a good buy?

Thank you for your time and interest in my post.

Nathan Scott
3rd August 2004, 00:21
Hi Megan,

I've merged your thread with this existing thread on the subject. Please have a look through it.

Also, you might have a look at these links:

Aiki books (Japanese language) (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16323)

Book: "The Hidden Roots of Aikido"/ Shiro Omiya (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6256)

Supplemental Technical/Technique Manuals (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15718)

Virtually everything discussable has been discussed here, so I think you'll find that the search engine will result in good times (in most cases).

Regards,

morpheus
20th October 2006, 15:09
Hi all. I was wondering whether or not Mr. Keisetsu is viewed as a legitimate teacher of Daito ryu. It was listed in the above post that he had been awarded kyoju dairi but was now teaching his own system.

thanks
Jeff

Nathan Scott
25th October 2006, 01:44
Hello Jeff,


I was wondering whether or not Mr. Keisetsu is viewed as a legitimate teacher of Daito ryu. It was listed in the above post that he had been awarded kyoju dairi but was now teaching his own system.

I can't really say for a fact, but here is what we know. He claims to have trained at the Sagawa dojo for roughly 15 years, and hold fairly high ranks (Jikiden hachigen, Okuden Yondan). It sounds like there may be some differences of opinion about the accuracy of his claims regarding Sagawa dojo.

After that, he trained in Tai Chi for almost 20 years before resuming DR under Sato Kinbei. Both Yamamoto and Sato both held Kyoju Dairi. After only four years of training, he was awarded Kyoju Dairi in the Yamamoto-den, which is pretty amazing. But assuming all of this is true, it would seem like Yoshimaru Sadao (Keisetsu is his pen name) would be pretty experienced.

At the same time, any branch of Daito-ryu that is not led by someone at least Shihan level (which is above Kyoju Dairi) it generally not recognized as being legitimate, since they would not have received the higher levels of intitiation in the art yet. Menkyo kaiden (full transmission) in the art is preferred. From looking at his books, Yoshimaru appears to be interested in researching and comparing his Daito-ryu experience with that of Chinese arts and other cultures, similar to Sugawara Tetsutaka. It does not appear that he is teaching straight Daito-ryu (since he calls his art "Aiki Rentaikai" instead), and that combined with the fact that he left the Sagawa dojo supposedly after 15 years only to resume training under a less qualified branch of DR 20 years later (and quickly receive a teaching license from them) is cause for question and concern.

Anyone else?

Nathan Scott
11th April 2008, 21:18
The following was recounted in the Japanese language book "Transparent Power", by Kimura Tatsuo:


December 27th, 1976 (Showa 51) - one of Sagawa’s students, Yoshimaru Sadao (also known under the pen name Yoshimaru Keisetsu), wrote a letter to him saying, “As Sensei has pointed out, I am not talented in regards to the martial arts, and have come to realize my own limitations. Taking this opportunity, I think I will dare to begin a new life in another direction”, and with this he quit the Sagawa Dojo.

According to the introduction in his book “Kankotsu-ken Nyumon”, published on March 20th, 1978 (Showa 53) - which is not publicly sold, but authored by Yoshimaru Keisetsu – late in 1976 (Showa 51) he became a student of Horibe Seishi, who was also a former student of Sagawa, and had learned up to the third level of direct teaching. Yoshimaru Keisetsu wrote several books describing Sagawa Sensei, most of which were published after Sagawa Sensei’s death.

FWIW,

R_Garrelts
9th January 2010, 22:54
Ha! I knew that would get your attention!

Can anyone identify the older gentleman in these clips?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=929VChlVZ5w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYyD9LyAYE

He looks a bit to me like Yoshimaru Sadao (aka Keisetsu), but, if so, the years have not been kind. These clips appear to be of the same fellow (taken when he was a bit younger):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgoGeI1shnc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9E5CsWUhcY

The Aiki Rentaikai also has a webpage (homepage2.nifty.com/aiki-rentai/ (http://homepage2.nifty.com/aiki-rentai/)) in addition to the Youtube account. With all the interest in Sagawa's Daito-ryu, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet (given that some of the videos have been around for over a year).

Of course, the usual caveats apply:

No one but Kimura got aiki from Sagawa. No one but Sagawa got aiki from Takeda. No one before Takeda had aiki because their eyes look funny. Takeda must have made it all up... but it's impossible learn without a teacher... just make sure it's not a Japanese teacher--they'll never teach westerners anything. So, I guess you should make sure its not a western teacher either--westerners never get the goods... unless, of course, they agree that no one else has the goods--only people with the goods claim that no one else has the goods. Everyone else's aiki is fake... but if it looks fake that means it's really good... unless, of course, it's fake. If you're curious which it is, just ask me and I'll tell you (hint: it's fake). If you think it looks at all like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you can't see the difference(s) on film. If you think it feels even a bit like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you aren't at a high enough level to tell the difference. Rest assured, though, everyone who has ever experienced it agrees they'll never go back... except for all those people who just visit once or twice and then go back to what they were doing before--life's too short to deal with those people (time is better spent on the internet!). Oh, and it's not magic, just physics--but not the kind that makes any sense!

Ollie
10th January 2010, 12:15
The technics and principles look very much the same as in Kodokai and Roppokai , Takumakai has also showed these type of Waza´s , lately some Aikido shihan also beging to show similar waza
as these waza´s called Aiki "something" ( aikiage-aikisage ect) i suspect they are waza on a high level , some wants to show them some not, some are able to do them some not.
and yes you do have to have some knowlege /experience to se if the people/waza on a video are fake/or weak , or not that well trained yet.

R_Garrelts
10th January 2010, 15:27
yes you do have to have some knowlege /experience to se if the people/waza on a video are fake/or weak , or not that well trained yet.

Of course, but I think the crux is experience with what? Is it enough, for example, to have trained in a similar art (such as aikido)? Or must one have direct experience in Daito-ryu? If so, how much? Does it have to be in a specific branch? With a particular teacher? During a particular period of the teacher's life? When the teacher is demonstrating a particular technique? On a particular day of the week? For the sixth (but not fifth) time? Does the acceptance of any of these criteria as sufficient depend on whether or not the person agrees that it "felt different"? Do we need to have been present when Sagawa was on his deathbed throwing around unnamed Olympian judoka (per the account of a longterm and almost certainly unbiased student)? Perhaps that was the only time he showed his real capabilities, thereby invalidating all the training experiences and opinions of so many students from years prior.

If someone comes along and says "I didn't find it particularly different from the aikido I was doing before*," the response, almost invariably, is that he/she is not experienced enough to understand what was felt. But when "experienced enough" can have such wide ranging interpretations as those above, an environment has been created in which it is basically never acceptable to say, "I don't think there is anything particularly unusual here"; someone will always be able to say "well, I don't know what sensei showed you, but, when you were looking the other way, he showed us the real deal."

But even so, I suspect I'll still continue to poke around as much as I can; it might just be the next teacher I meet who can show me how to thow around Olympic death-squad power-lifters on my deathbed. Not that any of this matters--I really just want to know whether the fellow in the clips is Yoshimaru Keisetsu.

*or more correctly (if pedantically): "I think that what I felt/saw is well within a standard deviation of what I have felt/seen in aikido."

Nathan Scott
11th January 2010, 17:57
No one but Kimura got aiki from Sagawa. No one but Sagawa got aiki from Takeda. No one before Takeda had aiki because their eyes look funny. Takeda must have made it all up... but it's impossible learn without a teacher... just make sure it's not a Japanese teacher--they'll never teach westerners anything. So, I guess you should make sure its not a western teacher either--westerners never get the goods... unless, of course, they agree that no one else has the goods--only people with the goods claim that no one else has the goods. Everyone else's aiki is fake... but if it looks fake that means it's really good... unless, of course, it's fake. If you're curious which it is, just ask me and I'll tell you (hint: it's fake). If you think it looks at all like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you can't see the difference(s) on film. If you think it feels even a bit like what your aikido teacher does, it's because you aren't at a high enough level to tell the difference. Rest assured, though, everyone who has ever experienced it agrees they'll never go back... except for all those people who just visit once or twice and then go back to what they were doing before--life's too short to deal with those people (time is better spent on the internet!). Oh, and it's not magic, just physics--but not the kind that makes any sense!

Ha ha ha!! That is REALLY funny! Someone has been spending too much time reading the internet forums...

The clips posted are interesting. I can't say for sure if they are Yoshimaru or not, but the age looks about right. The first two clips make reference to "Gojuryu Koden" (old teachings of hard-soft style). This could be a descriptive phrase they use for the techniques, or, it could be a reference to Goju-ryu karate, which Yoshimaru used to study. I've never seen techniques like those in karate though. The last two clips are striking techniques, and the demonstrator definitely has a karate feel to the strikes when performed to speed.

Thanks for pointing these out.

I'm going to merge this thread with an existing one on the subject to facilitate future searches.

Regards,