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hakuda
10th December 2002, 21:45
Ever noticed how we are taught to "go with the technique"? In most cases it's to avoid injury and to allow the tori to learn the dynamics of the body upon application of the technique, but you've got to wonder if it helps or hinders our training.

I have to admit though, I have wondered if someone caught off guard by a technique, someone not familiar with the style being used, would react in the perscribed manner in which we are accustomed to. Or would we be in for a rude awakening. I know it comes down to experience, skill, and how you have trained, but just a thought. I have used what I practice in an actual situation and it worked quickly and rather well. We train to be able to adapt our technique to the opponent and attack, but you have to admit sometimes your training partner may be too cooperative. If you're on a basic level that's fine, but if your advanced let them resist and have fun.

I just had this thought pop up while watching some hardly believable fight scene on the boobtube.

Eric Joyce
11th December 2002, 03:25
I have often wondered that too (will it work in a real situation). During training, I have had some ukes fall rather easily for me when doing techniques, others didn't fall like I would have liked them too. As time goes on, I have disovered that uke (or even a real attacker) has to be committed the whole way through. I have noticed the more committed the attacker is in trying to punch, stab or kick, the more effective the techniques can be. Just my 2 bits worth. :smilejapa

Benjamin Peters
11th December 2002, 10:49
Gentlemen,

Confidence in technique success is an issue I think all martial artists go through in their life as a student.

Not to take anything away from traditional class room training, but if we look at (say) some sport oriented forms (Ok OK, they have draw backs), we can see how they operate under resistive pressure. We can then see more clearly how expediency in technique can be achieved. For instance a boxer: even though the sport form is limited in comparison, its application is especially noted amongst martial artists for its deadly efficiency. Same could be said for other sport forms.

What works for your teacher may not work for you. What works in the dojo may not work for you on the street.

I'm sure if you gather a friends who are like minded and break away from the square of the dojo, you'll be able to see that you can resist some techniques and sometimes (under pressure or whatever), some techniques are successful and some not so successful.

The trick is to keep training and find the secrets to what you are learning so that all that knowledge can be applied. Experimenting isn't a crime - it can only help your training for real life, as can (as you say) "Going with it". That's how they did it in the old days ha, walking around and looking for opportunities to learn?

Mike Williams
11th December 2002, 11:34
Is a resisting Uke the same as a resisting 'real life' opponent?

A lot of techniques require atemi or the application of a lock to set up. I often have trouble applying these to resisting partners, but mainly (I feel) because I am concerned about injuring my opponent. Likewise, I'm a very compliant uke on some techs - because I know I risk injury if I resist too much, especially if I don't know my opponent all that well.

If the initial atemi was landed with full force or the lock was cranked on as hard as possible, I'm fairly sure you could create openings for the rest of the tech. to work a lot of the time - but your uke wouldn't thank you for it.

The times when it doesn't work, you have to be prepared to move into something else. That's where I think the real value of randori (or competition) comes in - teaching you how to adapt, to improvise, to think a few steps ahead of your opponent. Oh yeah, and it teaches applied kuzushi and maai as well.

Cheers,

Mike

Dan Harden
11th December 2002, 12:04
Most everything you know will work.
Most everything you know won't work.
What?

Defending yourself aganst a drunk may surprise you for what will work
Defendng yourself against me may surprise you for what won't.
And life happens somewhere in between.
you train for the unpredictably worst
The rest is a gift.
At some point you need to fight fighters. You won't learn that in most dojo

Cheers
Dan

hakuda
14th December 2002, 23:29
I have no doubt in my technique, I just posed the question because I've noticed others in our dojo struggling. I offered my help as best I could for their skill level. In my line of work unfortunately I get more oppurtunity to use what I have learned. That happened on Thursday with a "mean" drunk. Everything worked out fine with noone being injured. That seems to be a bigger question. Does humanity interfere with application of technique? Does a situation arise that makes you bring it down a notch, almost to the point of ineffectivness, because of a feeling of humanity or pity? I guess just a different light on my question.

Benjamin Peters
15th December 2002, 03:38
Originally posted by hakuda
I have no doubt in my technique, I just posed the question because I've noticed others in our dojo struggling. I offered my help as best I could for their skill level.

I think you've hit the nail on the head by saying that - some people need the encourangement to be able to go through the motions (fall with the technique) in order that they are able to truly recognize what is it about techniques that makes them effective. It's not until they are capable of understanding can they really evaluate their technique in more fluid circumstances. Probably more proactive that people fall initially - otherwise you'll have one trying to work the technique and the other resisiting. That would just look silly :p

poryu
15th December 2002, 09:38
Hi all

I think what you will find is if the situation does occur that it will look absolutely nothing like real martial arts.

I work in security doing a lot of bar and club work.
The main factor we come across is that the opponent is usually drunk and in many cases has none or little martial arts training. This gives them lot of bravery which they normally wouldnt have.

When thrown to the ground most people tend to try and tuck up into a ball, protecting themselves. Adrenalin when that kicks in also gives them a hidden strength and also blocks out the pain. I have seen guys trading punches to the face and not move an inch, but the next day i bet they can hardly get out of bed. Do that without alcohol and adrenalin and they would have been down and out with the first blow

I have also found that when we have had to remove someone and we wish them arrested, it is not always that easy to apply a restraint. Basicaly i just drop my body weight on them which lossens them up and allows me to quickly (and it has to be quick) to grab an arm and lock it. It takes a few seconds before they realise that they are going nowhere and then they tend to relax a little and stop fighting. pressing the thumb into a pressure point below the ear tends to soften them up also.

I doubt any highly skilled martial artist who has fought can actually say they fought perfectly in there style. I would say that it gives you an edge on that person, and if you do a striking art you will be more used to being hit than they are, a grappling at will give you the edge if it goes to the ground.

My advise - keep well away from fighting, when your adrenalin level drops you soon relaise what a situation you could have got into.

kobukai
16th December 2002, 14:30
Dont be fooled, if you dont fight, you dont know how to fight. I wouldn't worry so much about your opponent in the street, the techniques work. The problem is that most traditional martial artists do not have the ability to apply the techniques. If you receive your rank (if your school uses rank) by demonstrating a certain number of techniques for your level - this only means you can demonstrate - it doesnt mean you can apply them. You can never reproduce a real fight in training but you can get very close. You need to do unrehearsed self defense. Your "uke" attacks you any way they want, and then if he (or she) gets the chance, resists everything you try to do. If you throw him down and dont make him submit, he just gets back up and begins to beat you. (I would suggest some jujitsu gloves for this). Only through these kinds of training exercises will you be able to know at about a 90% level you can apply your technique. Do not let yourself get into the trap of using phrases like "this technique is so deadly I cant use it in training", or "this is where I would hit them - so this is what would happen on the street", or "I cant do the street version". Here is the truth - if you cant do it in class...you cant do it. It is a simple concept, but so few are willing to accept it.

poryu
16th December 2002, 14:38
Nice one Russ

I agree with you.

too often people recieve a grade/rank and think thats proof they are a fighter.

I have met lots of black belts who have the bottle to fight anyone on the mat with rules and regulations.

But put them in the street where they are going to get a real kicking many will back off

the best thing to do is back off if your unsure - walk away if you can, a Braver man walks away in my book

shadow42
17th December 2002, 03:40
Originally posted by hakuda
Ever noticed how we are taught to "go with the technique"? In most cases it's to avoid injury and to allow the tori to learn the dynamics of the body upon application of the technique, but you've got to wonder if it helps or hinders our training.

I have to admit though, I have wondered if someone caught off guard by a technique, someone not familiar with the style being used, would react in the perscribed manner in which we are accustomed to. Or would we be in for a rude awakening. I know it comes down to experience, skill, and how you have trained, but just a thought. I have used what I practice in an actual situation and it worked quickly and rather well. We train to be able to adapt our technique to the opponent and attack, but you have to admit sometimes your training partner may be too cooperative. If you're on a basic level that's fine, but if your advanced let them resist and have fun.

I just had this thought pop up while watching some hardly believable fight scene on the boobtube.

All I have to say about this really is, wristlock throws, very often dont result in any actual throwing, but a lot of actual screaming, after their wrist is broken and they are still standing there looking at it bending in most unnatural ways. When people who dont know to go with the technique, dont go with the technique, bad things can happen to them. But, depending on the severity of the situation, it can be a good thing for you.

L-Fitzgerald
19th December 2002, 16:48
About 17 years ago while working as a river guide another worker had been constantly goofing around with me. While he was standing on a small flat bed trailer I managed to grasp his hand and set up for a wrist throw. He laughed and dare me to try.... the next move found him spinning like a one-bladed propeller off the trailer to the ground.... his screams were heard for a half-mile on the river.... it worked, and worked very well... since an unruly bunch of drunks landing at the site saw what happened, starting picking up their empty beer cans and garbage and placed it in nearby trash cans...

L Fitzgerald

shadow42
20th December 2002, 00:24
Definitely a good litter deterent....
"You carry it in, you carry it out, or else the EMT's will be carryin YOU out!"

Neil Hawkins
23rd December 2002, 07:48
This is an old discussion that won't be resolved by discussion.

The effectiveness of the techniques that you are taught is dependant on how you train, how your instructor trained and the technique itself. There are many techniques taught in various styles of Jujutsu that are extremely difficult to apply in this day and age, however I have seen (and performed myself) some techniques in actual fights that I never expected to work, but worked brilliantly.

As many of the guys will tell you, experience is what counts when it comes to fighting. I don't condone going out and getting in fights to gain experience, and I don't expect you to try the latest technique from the dojo next time you get attacked or have to restrain someone.

The best thing is to make training as realistic as possible, train with people that are not from your dojo, so that you know their reaction is genuine. But most of all, practice. Practice until everything becomes second nature.

Feel the way your opponent moves and reacts and gauge what will work and what won't in the instant you come together. Changing techniques are important, if something isn't working, have something to change to, then change again if need be.

Having good unbalancing is the key to being able to change techniques, but having a broad range of techniques that you know well enables you to find something that works quickly. Of course reaching this level takes a long time.

Learning CQC will give you fighting skills much more quickly than learning Jujutsu. But to me the difference between CQC and Jujutsu is like the difference between a childs drawing and a work of art, both are effective at relaying a message. One is crude but quick and easy to do by almost anyone, the other takes considerable time and skill and many people cannot do it. But which would you prefer to look at?

But as always there's a catch. Beware of forgeries, beware of painters that over-value their work, beware of becoming engrosed in one style when another may suit you better and finally, don't be afraid to learn more than one style.

Regards

kusanku
30th December 2002, 05:02
Key to effective techniques is to learn first, the foundational priciples, ukemi, unbalancing,tai sabaki, and so forth, then apply these to mastery of the waza, then work the waza with as many different types partners as you can.

Then when you are in a situation, don't think about technique, just respond to protect yourself. Getting out of the way, get arms up to intercept, evade, unbalance,and apply. Forget about good technique, you aren't in the dojo.

Wristlocks work well when your wrist is grabbed, lapel is grabbed, or shoulder or throat is grabbed. Armbars and locks work well when you already have a wrist or hand or when you parry a punch or strike, unbalance and apply with as someone mentioned, weight dropped or raised.

Throws work dandy if you know them well, sweeps and reaps especially so.

Kick a puncher, grab the leg of a kicker, and push him back and away,or take him down,lock a grabber or full body grappler, and strike or punch a locker( atemi).Generally speaking.

Stay simple and don't get fancy.Fancy gets you kilt.

What makes for effectiveness for real?Well, hope you never have to find out, but some of you sound like you already have.

A real fight is a little piece of Hell, or a big piece, depending.It can happen very sudenly allowing you no time to prepare and little to react.Atemi is important as you can strike even as you are off balanced, tackled or pushed/pulled/hit.Not much time to do anything else. but if you can stun the attacker back as he does it to you, worst case, it can buy you time to move.Learn to keep your feet if at all possible.Try to stay away from the ground.

If you wind up down, try geting back up fast.Ground grappling is okay with one opponent if you are good, but boots to the head and ribs will kill you if more than one.Usually.

Figure on attacker probably being armed and respond to protect yourself, ie don't leave any openings if you can help it.

Figuring they are unamrmed can get you killed even if they are.Unarmed can be very dangerous.

The kata of various jujutsu ryu are often designed, in addition to specific responses, to teach general principles of respons to many types of attack. Not a news flash I am sure.

The complete techniques, usually contain or shopuld contain, caveat,all needed elements of self protection against attack, Learning them and internalizing them such that in a real attack you remain as safe as possible by human effort at least,gives you the best chance of survival.learn to control distance if you have the chance but often you won't.

Awareness, anticipation, and yes,wisdom, are key elements as well, though by no means the only ones.

There is also the possibillity of supernatural assistance,which starts with those human faculties that in modern life we do not develop, and goes much further than them- ie thru prayer, meditation and living in harmony with the great principles which remain the same down the ages and across cultures.

And then there are the technical principles, including those learned through much training and experience..

Hope that is of help.

MarkF
30th December 2002, 14:04
I agree with those basically talking about conditioned reflex (Neil and Dan said it pretty well). I found that, the one thing which seems to be true about all situations which happen outside the dojo, you don't know what technique, move, etc., you will use until it is over. If you come out on top and it's over, but can't recall what you did, well, that is the better test of those reflexes.

Changing a natural reflex similar to breathing is one of the most difficult to do, but it must be second nature, or first.

I find that attack drills, unrehearsed, but limited attacks and defense, over and over, have a way of working well. Then in randori, it just happens.

But outside, you really don't know what you know until it has ended, unless getting out alive and unhurt isn't enough, then, well, I feel sorry for the other guy.

Reflex, natural or second conditioned reflexes. Breathe, center, relax while finding what the rule of the fight will be. They all have a rule. Fighting next to a cliff with a two hundred foot drop is not the same as a parking lot, but in the parking lot you are bound to find something you can use as a weapon, you have a certain area in which to work, and you may find your way out when it comes to it. All this must be second nature.

BTW: There is nothing wrong with randori or drills, kumi uchi in which throws are exchanged with only the amount of resistence necessary that uke feels the center of your technique working. That isn't tanking, that is training. That's fine, we do it in judo all the time, but you need the conditioning, testing them in all out randori, or perhaps in a "challenge" to another dojo (we used to call them "invitationals" even when we weren't invited).

After that, well, I don't like to repeat myself, but if you are on the receiving end and can remember what you did even if you come out on top, you haven't perfected anything, you need more work.

There are naturals out there, as the musician who can just do it from instinct, but most can't so it has to be the same as breathing, nothing difficult, just regular breathing in and out, forgotten. In my experience, that is the first thing forgotten, just basic taking and letting out the breathe can be one of the most difficult reflexes to change. The sad fact is, most of us forget to breathe at all when in such a situation.


Mark

hakuda
30th December 2002, 15:53
I agree about the condtioned response. It seems that most of the schools I have visited try to perscribe this response for that attack and so on. Some of these schools have made the claim to be traditional. Which leads me to ask if they are traditional, what happened to mushin? I used to be skeptical about the mushin, non stopping mind and things of that sort. However the more I trained and experienced recieving uke from my instructor, the more I believed. To be attacked and try to apply some preselected defense, I believe, is virtual suicide. To have an open mind expecting everything, is more conducive to survival and reacting appropriatly. To use a said defense to a said attack is a good guide for beginners though. It shows them where they may want to look as far as blocks, parries, or strikes to counter attacks. Afterall there is only so much phsyiology to any punch and the variables to balance and stance. I don't mean to seem as though I'm contradicting myself. I guess just trying not to detract from some methods of learning. What may work as a learning tool for someone else, may not work for others. I only speak for my own experience and capacity of learning.

Jay Vail
31st December 2002, 01:09
Thomas, Jujutsu/judo is excellent for combat. But I have noticed one big difference between practicing in the dojo and in using techniques on the street. In the dojo, your practice partner takes the fall neatly. On the street, the guy holds onto you for dear life. This changes the dynamic of the throw. You end up going to the ground with the guy. You can't avoid it. His momentum takes you with him. If you are not prepared for it, you may be in for a hard time. The first time it happened to me I nearly got beat up badly. The second time it happened, I made sure I landed on top and stayed there. I have had this happen with ogoshi, koshigaruma, harigoshi, taiotoshi, and sukuinage. Otherwise the techniques work fine.

The locks work well enough, too, but you have to catch the guy off guard. If he senses you're going to put a lock on him or if you're slow in applying the lock, he'll tense up and then you'll have to struggle to get it. It helps to hit the guy once or twice as a distraction before locking him up. Or you try one lock, fail at it, go immediately to another.

I used to work with prison guards. One of them was an aikido guy. They all swore by the wrist-twisting stuff, those who knew it. Most don't put in the time and effort to master it, though.

Neil Hawkins
31st December 2002, 03:34
A couple of points from the discussion:

Firstly, just because the system teaches a specific defense for a specific attack doesn't mean that it is not traditional or practical. They can still be utilised if you practice, you just need enough defenses in the repertoire to cover the eventualities.

Also, one school I have trained at teach the defense from one attack at basic level, then the same defense from a different attack at subsequent levels until you can get the defense from almost any attack.

Next, if you have to struggle for a technique it's time to change. If you 'feel' your opponent correctly you should perform the approriate technique, if he resists you should seamlessly go to the next appropriate technique until one works. Mark will tell you that this is what most victories in a Judo match are based on. They will even try to trick the opponent by going for one thing, then as the opponent counters, quickly change direction and do something else.

On the street it is generally easier to fight because the opponent is not expecting resistance, and he is certainly not going to be as prepared as someone that trains with you all the time and can read where you are going and what you are trying to do. Having said that though it is usually much more dangerous because you have the same restrictions, you don't know what he'll do or how he'll react. And don't forget all the environmental variables.

What I mean by easier is the fact that, as Mark stated, it just happens, you don't conciously think about what to do, you just do what is appropriate. But to get there you have to train, and train, and train...

Finally, I'm going to mention the subject that usually gets people jumping up and down. PAIN COMPLIANCE.

Basically, in my mind it is a side effect of a good technique, the technique is designed to do maximum damage to a joint and the surrounding muscles, ligaments and whatever, but the fact that it causes pain means that you can in some circumstances get a submission before you destroy the limb. Body position, unbalancing and so on need to be such that if the pain does not cause the guy to comply, you immediately change (or continue) the technique to a break or whatever.

I can't even count the number of times I've seen people stand there and try to force a technique, no unbalancing, just strength. Regardless of how well they started and got into position, everything stops while they try and get it to work. It will rarely work under these circumstances and is one of the reasons that wrist locks and so on have such a bad name in some circles.

Don't focus on one technique, if it doesn't feel like its going to work discard it and try something else.

Regards

hakuda
1st January 2003, 20:30
First of all, thanks for all the feedback. I knew I could count on you guys for some different points of view.

I'm a law enforcement officer, so I get ample oppurtunity to see the true effectivness of what I learn. I can say without a doubt that all that I have learned has worked. I know that's due to my efforts in the dojo. I enjoy learning the traditional applications and learning how I can personally employ them in my line of work. I have a liability thing to worry about.

As far as the techniques taught are concerned, I believe that they were already tested in combat. They wouldn't have survived within any system if they were ineffective. This topic could lead to a style vs style conversation. There too, it would lead to the individual. In as far as effectivness goes for any technique, it comes down to the individual. The more any technique is practiced, the more it is understood by the practioner, and the more effective it becomes for that person.

There is a big difference between a controled environment(dojo) and an uncontroled environment(street). In the dojo everything works eventually. In the street you are not afforded the luxery of a cooperative "assailant". One can only train to be prepared for whatever situation may arise. There is no one technique that would cover all attacks, but mental preparedness will give you that fighting chance. I agree that most attackers don't expect resistance, but keep in mind the goodguys aren't the only ones practicing martial arts. There are vidoes showing prison inmates practicing gun disarms and techniques for 2 or 3 on 1.

As long as we don't fall prey to laziness, the one be-all-end-all technique, and we strive to keep survival in mind each time we enter the dojo, I'm lead to believe we can survive. Have faith in what you learn and train hard, and there won't be a question of does it really work. You will be able to make it work for you.:)

Jay Vail
2nd January 2003, 10:54
Thomas, your replies are well thought out and excellent. Your experience as a police officer is appreciated.


As far as the techniques taught are concerned, I believe that they were already tested in combat. They wouldn't have survived within any system if they were ineffective.

I believe that to be true. One of the striking things about the European fight books of the middle ages, such as Fiore dei Liberi's book from 1410 and Talhoffer's from the same period, is how similar many of their techniques are to judo/jujutsu.


There are vidoes showing prison inmates practicing gun disarms and techniques for 2 or 3 on 1.

This is true. You can't always assume that the bad guy will be poorly trained. One of the 9/11 hijackers trained for a time in knife fighting, and I have seen videos of prison inmates practicing knife fighting.

Stevo
24th January 2003, 15:26
I'd like to "throw" a slight "twist" into the discussion.

Quite often you see one novice trying as hard as they can to resist absolutely everything that their partner (also a novice) tries to perform. Naturally, it's not possible for them to learn anything this way. So initially, the attacker has to be taught to "go with it" to give their partner an opportunity to learn, and to reduce the risk of injury.

As you increase the defender's skill level, you must also increase the attacker's. The attacker has to learn how to resist the right way. Otherwise they won't be able to resist the technique as the defender's skill increases. Consequently the defender won't learn the limitations of the technique or their own skill.

So first you teach the attacker. Then the defender. Then the attacker. Then the defender. And so on. That way, you eventually end up with skilled defenders training against equally skilled attackers.

Finny
25th January 2003, 03:03
Thats one magic boomerang youve got there Andrew!!!:p