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m.virmasalo
12th December 2002, 15:49
Hi to all!

I'm kenshi from Finland and I have studied Shorinji Kempo since -91. My current rank is 2. dan.

My question is that how long did it take from you to gain your 1. dan?

I go to practice aprox. 3 to 4 times a week and it took me 8 years to get my shodan.

During my trips to abroad to participate training seminars I have learned that in most of the other countries it takes some what 4 to 5 years to shodan. There all the kenshis I have talked with wondered why did it take such a long time to get shodan. For me it actually doesn't matter what my rank is as long as I can be part of the Shorinji Kempo family. One good point is that when it takes such a long time to train one also gains a lot of experiences and confidence and maby learns more on what lies behind technique. Any comments?

I'm not saying that it's not good if one gains shodan faster. I'm just curious to know how you have done?

Anyway, Merry X-mast to all :D

Tripitaka of AA
13th December 2002, 11:37
I started in 1983 (just before I went to USA on holiday - visited the Sanf Francisco branch as a White belt), and I got my Shodan just before I went to Japan for the International Taikai in November 1985.

I thought I had trained a lot, but in hindsight, of course, I realise that I knew next to nothing. I have met Karateka who knew they wouldn't reach Dan grades for a decade or more. Like you said, to be training with the Shorinji Kempo family is the good part.

johan_frendin
27th December 2002, 12:07
Gassho!

I started in 1984 and I got my shodan just before I went to Japan for the International Taikai in september 1989. During this 5 years I practiced 3 times a week and went to a lot of training camps.

During this time I thought that if I reach the level of shodan I would understand the idea and principles of Shorinjikempo technique. But it is sad to say I was very wrong.
If you look at the techniques that you need to know to reach shodan level it only contains the very the basics of Shorinjikempo and maybe 20 % of the total amount of Shorinjikempo techniques. Why should you stay in that ”area” for such a long time as 8 years? I had to wait for 5 years to reach my shodan and that is far to long time. My personal believe you should not wait more than 2-3 years before your teacher should allow you to try for shodan.

Johan Frendin

Kimpatsu
27th December 2002, 16:29
Gassho.
I agree with Johan Sensei's observations, but not his conclusions. To whit: Shodan literally means "first step", but like a baby, before you start to toddle, you first have to crawl. Being a kyu kenshi means learning to crawl. Put another way, it's warm-up before you can start to exercise. However, there is more to Shorinji Kempo than just techniques. There is an attidute that must be learned as well. Part of that attitude is humility, so being made to wait four or five years to take shodan is intended to teach patience, humility, and, above all else, respect for one's branch master. To jettison the patience requirement will reduce Shorinji Kempo to the level of just another martial art, when we aspire to be something so much greater. Techniques are easy; the wisdom to apply them is hard.
Kesshu.

Anders Pettersson
29th December 2002, 00:35
Gassho.

Considering time before shodan, or time between ranks in general, one can view it in some different ways.

Firstly one should be aware of that Japanese kenshi have a little shorter minimum requirements considering number of attended practice sessions and time between rank than we have outside of Japan.

In Japan
Minarai to 3kyu: minimum of 27 sessions and minimum of 2 months
3kyu to 2kyu: minimum of 24 sessions and minimum of 2 months
2kyu to 1kyu: minimum of 24 sessions and minimum of 2 months
1kyu to 1dan: minimum of 24 sessions and minimum of 2 months

Outside of Japan:
Minarai to 3kyu: minimum of 30 sessions and minimum of 3 months
3kyu to 2kyu: minimum of 30 sessions and minimum of 3 months
2kyu to 1kyu: minimum of 30 sessions and minimum of 3 months
1kyu to 1dan: minimum of 50 sessions and minimum of 6 months

(There is also quite some difference between Japan and outside of Japan concerning times between Dan ranks. I don't post that, but can check my Japanese kamoku if anyone is interested.)

This gives that if you don't miss any practice and have the opportunity to take the test on minimum time you could get from minarai to shodan in 8 months in Japan and for us outside of Japan you could get there in 15 months. I believe that very few, if any, make it in this short of time.

To get to the point, the most important is not how long time, in months/years you have between each examination, but how much you have practiced. 1-2 times a week for 1 hour each time, is quite a big difference from 3 times a week with 2 hour sessions.
If you practice regularly, all the year around and keep up the attendance to nearly 3 times a week, it should not be impossible in any way to reach shodan in 3 years. However, very few keep that level of attendance. Those of you who are shibu-cho and send in attendance reports to Hombu know this.

The basic principle, in my opinion, is that if you know the techniques for a certain rank and have met the minimum requirements of time in between ranks, I think that in most cases you should take the examination test. And by "knowing" the techniques I just don't mean to know which technique is which, but actually be able to do them in an acceptable way. (In some cases there can certainly be good to wait some extra time, but that is up to the individuals kenshi’s shibu-cho to decide.)

And to answer Mikko’s question.
For me it took a little less than 4 years to get from minarai to shodan (but in those days I often practised 4-5 days a week). Then I had about two years for nidan, and after that I have had 4 years between all of my following tests up to godan.


In my opinion, if you practice regularly and are of "normal" talent, a good time to get from minarai to shodan would be 3-4 years, I think Johan's two years is a little too short, one also need to get some basic under the belt as well, but it shouldn't be so centred around time, rather around knowledge.

Have a Happy New Year.

/Anders

johan_frendin
29th December 2002, 09:32
Gassho!

Firstly I find it very strange that the Shorinjikempo organization treat kenshis in different way according if they are Japanese or not.

Secondly I also think that we should focus on kenshis knowledge rather than time in the dojo. But very often everybody seems to focus on the belt and rank itself. If a person has a black belt does not automatically make him good in Shorinjikempo. Knowledge can not been found in a rank or in a belt but in knowledge itself. If I look when Arai sensei at hombu doing techniques I see that he is the "real deal". He can do them in a Santa Claus costume and there will be no doubt that he is skilled. Recently I saw a “Budo master” with 10:th Dan on video and he was terrible to watch. His exhibition looked like something in between John Cleese in "silly walks" and a Neil Armstrong walking on the moon in 1969. This person could have 72 dan and call himself Guru, Big white chief, Shihan, Shike or what ever but his techniques remains the same, useless.

Shodan in Shorinjikempo contains just the most basic of the art and must be treated like that, not as a master grade as it is sometimes done today in western world.

It is also very important that we in Shorinjikempo must try to focus more on the ideas, principles and the mission of the organization rather than the symbols that holds up the system. Sometimes it seems that the symbols is more important than the idea itself and that is very sad.

Johan Frendin
Visby Branch

Anders Pettersson
29th December 2002, 09:41
Originally posted by johan_frendin
... I also think that we should focus on kenshis knowledge rather than time in the dojo. But very often everybody seems to focus on the belt and rank itself. If a person has a black belt does not automatically make him good in Shorinjikempo. Knowledge can not been found in a rank or in a belt but in knowledge itself. If I look when Arai sensei at hombu doing techniques I see that he is the "real deal". He can do them in a Santa Claus costume and there will be no doubt that he is skilled. ....

Shodan in Shorinjikempo contains just the most basic of the art and must be treated like that, not as a master grade as it is sometimes done today in western world.

It is also very important that we in Shorinjikempo must try to focus more on the ideas, principles and the mission of the organization rather than the symbols that holds up the system. Sometimes it seems that the symbols is more important than the idea itself and that is very sad.

Very good post Johan. I think we agree on most things.

/Anders

tony leith
7th January 2003, 15:08
Er, I thought I'd posted on this yesterday. If my expertise with IT is once again manifest and it showed up somewhere else, apologies (can I be that crap - oh yes, and then some..)

For my money gradings serve a number of different purposes. Increasingly for me they compel me to make choices about the various interpretations of techniques that you see from senior instructors - they oblige you to find a working approximation, the state of your art at that point in time as it were. This crystallises your thinking about techniques. They help keep students motivated, and have diagnostic value for students and teachers alike.

As a member of the brute persistence overcomes all obstacles school of Kempo practioners, I personally am not that worried about when I grade as long as I feel that I'm making progress towards that end, and learning something about Kempo in general and my syllabus in particular. Some people are much more goal oriented, and need that spur. I certainly wouldn't see much of a problem with people pushing thorugh the syllabus to sho dan as quickly as they're able - I did it in three and half years, but I think the current record holder in the Glasgow club did it in two and a half, and his technical standard was better than mine when I graded to sho dan.

Tony leith