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TimothyScott
13th December 2002, 18:18
I have heard that the three Naihanchi kata I study, Naihanchi Shodan, Naihanchi Nidan, and Naihanchi Sandan, were actually derived from an older former called "Naihanchin". Has anybody else heard of this? If this is true, it makes me wonder who split it up into three, why it was split up, and what it looked like before it was split up.

Doing a quick search on this site for the term "Naihanchin" pops up a thread dating back to December of 2000. One of the contributors mentions that Itosu and/or Matsumura may have been the one(s) to create the shodan, nidan, and sandan forms from the older form.

Given the similarities between Kusanku and the Pinans at least makes me think that it is a possibility. However, in all that I've read, I have never heard of a single "Naihanchin" kata.

kusanku
14th December 2002, 00:36
Naihanchin is just an old way of spelling/saying Naihanchi. It may derive from Chinese Nei Huan Chien, meaning uncertain.

Some say it was one kata, some others like Shoshin Nagamine say it was three, some say it was two.

One guy even said there were four but he was wrong.:D

Tell you what: No one knows, really.Unless Nagamine was right and some two hundred years ago someone named UKU Giko taught the three that Nagamine does now.And I would not doubt that a biot as I do those among others, and there are a class act. It is said that Itosu changed the Naihanchi a bit.Mainly though, they are all the same or similar kata, and have tremendous applications

Take care.

Geoff
16th December 2002, 11:45
I'm not near my library right now, but I thought I read that Naihanchi was originally the Chinese xing called "nei xie" (or something like that). The source, if I recall correctly, stated that it was brought to Okinawa and was "now" (whenever the quote was recorded) no longer practiced in China.

Naihanchi, to me, seems to feel kind of like Sanchin, Hangetsu, etc in that you are rooted solidly to the ground while making strong offensive and defensive applications. I don't think it is any surprise therefore to see that Naihanchi was a Fujian form and was originally a fundamental form like Sanchin and Hangetsu.

Geoff
16th December 2002, 11:47
Oops - Forgot to sign my post.

Geoff Wingard

Tatsu
17th December 2002, 07:59
Originally posted by Geoff
I'm not near my library right now, but I thought I read that Naihanchi was originally the Chinese xing called "nei xie" (or something like that). The source, if I recall correctly, stated that it was brought to Okinawa and was "now" (whenever the quote was recorded) no longer practiced in China.

Naihanchi, to me, seems to feel kind of like Sanchin, Hangetsu, etc in that you are rooted solidly to the ground while making strong offensive and defensive applications. I don't think it is any surprise therefore to see that Naihanchi was a Fujian form and was originally a fundamental form like Sanchin and Hangetsu.

Naihanchi has been called the ShuriTe Sanchin. No dynamic breathing is done though. The position of the legs, almost pigeon-toed, mirrors the hourglass stance shape of Sanchin Dachi. The difference being one is one with the feet side-by-side with lateral movement (Naihanchi) and Sanchin is done from a walking position, with movement forward.

Placing your legs in such a manner gives one more power for rising techs. Watch when some guys shoot freethrows in the NBA. You'll notice they get their upward push from an almost pigeon-toed stance.

My sensei says that some Okinawan Shorin sensei liked to beat on the legs (thighs especially) and arms when their students perform Naihanchi. This is also done in Sanchin. It's also been said that Naihanchi use to be one kata, not 3. As for Pinan (Heian) and Naihanchi being similar, I don't see it. Where are the similarities? I think these 2 kata series teach different fighting principles.

Hangetsu and/or Seisan in some ShuriTe-based styles, may be a beginning form. In Matsumura Orthodox it is a Yudansha form. I think it may differ somewhat from the other versions. Regardless, all the forms you mentioned have something to teach. Unless of course, the form has been too altered, then many principles will be missed. An example is Shotokan's version of the Naihanch-Dachi. There isn't even a hint of the hourglass stance left in its execution. Your legs and feet should at the least have the "feel" of pigeon-toedness, or the concentration of outward pressure at the heals, lower thighs and knees. Firm rooting is a must. Tuite abounds in Naihanchi.

TimothyScott
17th December 2002, 12:47
Originally posted by Tatsu


As for Pinan (Heian) and Naihanchi being similar, I don't see it. Where are the similarities? I think these 2 kata series teach different fighting principles.


I think you misunderstand me. I didn't mean to imply that the Pinans and Naihanchi are similar. I was just pointing out the the Pinans appear to be derived from Kusanku. Given this, it doesn't seem to be too far of a stretch to assume that the Naihanchi may have been derived from some earlier kata (and who knows what that may have been).

CEB
17th December 2002, 15:41
Originally posted by Tatsu


Naihanchi has been called the ShuriTe Sanchin. No dynamic breathing is done though. The position of the legs, almost pigeon-toed, mirrors the hourglass stance shape of Sanchin Dachi. The difference being one is one with the feet side-by-side with lateral movement (Naihanchi) and Sanchin is done from a walking position, with movement forward.

Placing your legs in such a manner gives one more power for rising techs. Watch when some guys shoot freethrows in the NBA. You'll notice they get their upward push from an almost pigeon-toed stance.
.....


Actually many many years ago I started shooting free throws from a modified Sanchin Dachi and my free throw shooting percentage really improved, maybe it was just from improved concentration.:eek: I have also been able to apply some lessons from Kendo to my golf game with good results.:cool:


There is something I have thought about in the pasts and I have never heard a karate teacher expound on this. The stretching feeling I get in my legs when I do Sanchin and when I try to do Naihanchi from the Seito Matsumura system reminds of the feeling I get in my arms when I work out with our local Taijiquan teacher and we do the tendon exercises that he is so very fond of. I can't help but think that a primary purpose of Sanchin and Naihanchi is to improve tendon strength in the legs. We often discuss the benefits to the arm tendons when we do Tensho and Sanchin and various hojo undo routines but like I said I've never heard anyone address how we work the tendons in the legs. I guess no one has to. If you work the stance right it just happens.

You can't really GRIP the floor with your feet. But when you try it changes the whole dynamic of your leg work out. I don't really know how to say what I want to say. Maybe someone can say it better or maybe I'm off base on this. What do guys think?

Tatsu
21st December 2002, 07:42
Originally posted by TimothyScott


I think you misunderstand me. I didn't mean to imply that the Pinans and Naihanchi are similar. I was just pointing out the the Pinans appear to be derived from Kusanku. Given this, it doesn't seem to be too far of a stretch to assume that the Naihanchi may have been derived from some earlier kata (and who knows what that may have been).

My bad man. It's hard to say for sure, but I would bet that your "Chinese Connection" is pretty accurate.

Tatsu
21st December 2002, 08:28
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CEB


Actually many many years ago I started shooting free throws from a modified Sanchin Dachi and my free throw shooting percentage really improved, maybe it was just from improved concentration.:eek: I have also been able to apply some lessons from Kendo to my golf game with good results.:cool:

Yeah definitely caught that too, being a baller myself. For rising power Naihanchi or Sanchin Dachi is used. For sinking power, or pushing down, a moderate width horse stance (Pai Sai Dachi, Jigotai dachi, etc.) is used. Basic biomechanical principles, but things alot of folks never glean. Knowledge is power!

There is something I have thought about in the pasts and I have never heard a karate teacher expound on this. The stretching feeling I get in my legs when I do Sanchin and when I try to do Naihanchi from the Seito Matsumura system reminds of the feeling I get in my arms when I work out with our local Taijiquan teacher and we do the tendon exercises that he is so very fond of. I can't help but think that a primary purpose of Sanchin and Naihanchi is to improve tendon strength in the legs...

Strength from the sinew vs. muscle is the aim of many internal arts. When one gets older and muscles begin to atrophy, how do you compensate for the loss of raw strength? You train the "connections". In this way the "cables" that facilitate movement and power delivery in the body can help compensate for this aspect of senescence. I think traditional MAs is training that evolves to be more effective and efficient with the ravages of time. This is something that alot of modernists fail to recognize. I also feel exercises/forms like Naihanchi, Sanchin, Tensho, etc. point towards the "hard" AND "soft" influences in Okinawan Karate. Okinawan Karate, whether it be Naha Te or Shuri Te/Tomari Te is supposed to be a balance of "Hard" and "Soft" principles. I definitely agree with your analysis. The nejia contribution is especially overlooked or misunderstood.

You can't really GRIP the floor with your feet. But when you try it changes the whole dynamic of your leg work out. I don't really know how to say what I want to say. Maybe someone can say it better or maybe I'm off base on this. What do guys think?

Keeping your lower body "rooted" by exerting pressure down and outward, and "gripping the floor" with your feet is another aim of this type of forms training. Conversely, the upper body is supple, pliable, relaxed and teaches the student how to maintain a good base to deliver block-strikes, throws, locks and even sweeps from. Tension (Goho) is present only during offensive action, during execution of these techs or at the moment/point of "impact". Juho is utilized in the antagonistic components of the strike, kick, sweep etc., and to some degree in your root. The upper body then returns to a state of complete sensitivity/pliability (Juho). Goho is again maintained in the hips, legs and feet. From the earth to the target, with whipping power at the terminus. It's basic Ryukyuan inside striking and grappling theory. I like it alot...

Happy Holidays Ed and all!

CEB
6th May 2004, 19:12
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Blackwood
19th July 2004, 15:47
TanRen (http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/003/index.html)

This happens to use all the time when we do kata. Sensei (hmm, is the plural of Sensei, Sensei?) will even use your thighs as a step and climb up it.

Michael Bland
19th July 2004, 20:24
Sensei (hmm, is the plural of Sensei, Sensei?)

Japanese language doesn't change nouns when they are pluralized. So, yes - "Sensei" is both singular and plural.