Roots of Kodokan Judo

[jodirren]

I am trying to discover the roots of judo, i.e., which ryu of traditional jujitsu were absorbed into Kano's judo. So far, I have concluded that Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and Kito Ryu were major influences. Is this correct? Are there other ryu with equal or more importance? The literature talks about other ryu which Kano encountered *after* he had already created his judo, e.g., Fusen Ryu which defeated his school on one occasion because of their superior groundwork. What I can't tell, is if he then absorbed their techniques in his style or not. (Sounds like he did, in which case I would say Fusen Ryu is just about as important as the other two ryu). Also, apparently at some point after this, Kano got a bunch of koryu jujitsu masters together of various leading ryu and had them help him create his syllabus for judo. Is this correct? If so, how much influence did this process have? Could it be considered minor relative to the previous three?

For those practicioners of judo out there who know judo and some jujitsu, I would greatly appreciate your insight. Thanks in advance.

jd

[lemalin66]

I don't think that judo absorbed complete ryus but rather some technics. Of course tenshin shinyo and kito ryu are the main ryus that influenced judo. Kito ryu specialised a bit more on throws and it is said that the koshiki no kata (judo kata rarely practiced)origins are directly from Kito Ryu. Kano's approach was to observed new techniques and adopt them once their value was proven under certain criterias. It had to be safe for both partners when practicing randori or kata and above all, It had to be useful and efficient. Finally it must be known that the adopted techniques were organised within a curriculum based on principles of apprenticeship they were not just a collection of individual techniques. Kano being an educator changed the old ways of seeing things.

Martin Durette

[MarkF]

Martin is essentially correct. The last of the "superior" kata was koshiki no kata, one originally done in armor. It is sometimes referred to as kito-ryu no kata (it is still one of the official kata taught at the Kodokan). The technique was refined from the original. A third ryu was Yoshin-ryu, but I can't recall and don't have any books to name the particular ryu-ha of this school of jujutsu. Not all judo technique comes from any jujutsu school, though.

Fusen ryu was important only in that it made newaza more important to Kano and Kodokan Judo. The school didn't win because they were superior in it, many matches were simply fusen players dropping to the ground as soon as they could. Since the groundwork of judo hadn't advanced to the next level, some matches were ruled draws, and, at that time, there really wasn't a sequence to deal with it. The Kodokan lost but learned a valuable lesson.

Another older school of Kito-ryu was jikishin-ryu (not jikishin kage-ryu) of the 18th century, perhaps older. This school of jujutsu was an example of what Kano really wanted, and since it was the first ryu to call it self Judo (more likely jiu no michi or yawara no michi, both accepted pronunciations of the kanji making up ju-do) and used "ran" in the school for the perfection of technique, Kano took the term Judo and applied it along with kodokan to differenciate it from jikishin-ryu Judo.

The original and final syllaba of judo were not a bunch of jujutsu masters, but Kano and his top students who developed it. Kano was the first academic to make a study of jujutsu and to refine it to make it available for even the smallest to affect the largest of people. If you study the kata you will see the differences clearly. Some kata were strictly for demonstrating the principles, such as the ju no kata and the itsu tsu no kata. In that day, only the strongest of the jujutsu schools performed nage-waza to any extent, and strength was mandatory. By refining these technique, Kano proved that the small and weak really could challenge the big and strong, with examples of taking one foot off the mat to execute a throw, something which hadn't been seen before.

Anyway, I've probably left a lot out, but as your questions were general in nature, this should help some.


Mark

[jodirren]

Thanks much for your help, Mark. A few more questions/comments .....


Originally posted by MarkF

Fusen ryu was important only in that it made newaza more important to Kano and Kodokan Judo. The school didn't win because they were superior in it, many matches were simply fusen players dropping to the ground as soon as they could. Since the groundwork of judo hadn't advanced to the next level, some matches were ruled draws, and, at that time, there really wasn't a sequence to deal with it. The Kodokan lost but learned a valuable lesson.

So, you're saying that Kodokan Judo more or less already had the needed newaza techniques in its curriculum to beat Fusen Ryu, but Kano hadn't emphasized them enough up to that point? Then, when Kano saw how Fusen Ryu used the techniques, it was sort of a wake-up call and from thereon he placed more emphasis on them? If that is the jist of what you're saying, then I would say that Fusen Ryu is *not* one of the major roots of judo (not that it didn't have an influence, as it obviously did, but in the sense of providing techniques), at least not nearly as much as Kito Ryu and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu.


Originally posted by MarkF

Another older school of Kito-ryu was jikishin-ryu (not jikishin kage-ryu) of the 18th century, perhaps older. This school of jujutsu was an example of what Kano really wanted, and since it was the first ryu to call it self Judo (more likely jiu no michi or yawara no michi, both accepted pronunciations of the kanji making up ju-do) and used "ran" in the school for the perfection of technique, Kano took the term Judo and applied it along with kodokan to differenciate it from jikishin-ryu Judo.

Yes, I have heard many times that Jikishan Ryu was the first to coin the word "judo". However, more importantly (for my sake anyway), is whether or not Jikishan's judo had a major influence on Kano's, not just whether or not they happened to use the same name. From what I have gathered, it sounds like it wasn't that important. Any idea?


Originally posted by MarkF

The original and final syllaba of judo were not a bunch of jujutsu masters, but Kano and his top students who developed it.

This is a given. Of course any new style of martial art has its own unique creations from the founder himself. However, in addition to any unique influences, my goal is to find out which ryu directly influenced judo.

I actually found an interesting article:

http://martialarts.boom.ru/judo.html

Unfortunately, the author (Steven R. Cunningham) puts no weight on how much each one influenced judo. If he were to give them some sort of weight (even as vague as major versus minor influence), the article would contain exactly what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, he does not and so I'm still not sure.

Martin mentioned Yoshin Ryu. Anybody else know if this was a major direct influence on judo?

Lastly, the reason I'm interested in all this is because I'm trying to make a flow chart of the genealogy of my style of martial arts (Zen Budokai Aiki Jujitsu). Judo was a big influence in my style, and then I'm linking judo back to its roots. So, obviously a flow chart with *every* single connection between various ryu and styles of martial art would only be confusing, not enlightening. Hence, I just want the ryu with "major" influences. In other words, if you look at a flow chart of the genealogy of judo and it shows two lines coming from Kito Ryu and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu (maybe a third from Yoshin Ryu, and possibly a fourth from Jiksihin Ryu), would that be enough to get the basic point across, ie, capture say 80% of the essence of judo's roots?

jd

[vadrip]

The thing with the fusen ryu is something of mystery because from what I've heard from people who've come into contact with it have said that it didn't have anything that resembled judo newaza in it.

I think even if any jujutsu styles of that time did have some newaza it was very minimal at best or more so aikido type holdowns and such rather than judo newaza.

I think the kosen judoists are the ones who really brought judo newaza to another level. Speaking of kosen judo, Phil Porter seems to be ranking people in kosen judo now, he even ranked someone who was later exposed as fraud who was claiming to be ranked as a bjj black belt on a bjj forum at mma.tv.

Now, that guy list himself as 3rd dan in kosen judo in the najjf. Here's the links www.najjf.org/kosen.html, and www.najjf.org/blackbelts.html; click on the membership page too so you can see the exhorbitant promotion fees and thing discussing rank in kosen judo.

[MarkF]

Orlando is correct about Fusen. The Kodokan always did have newaza, but those techniques are of no real consequence to judo (fusen's waza)

Kosen is Kodokan Judo. The dojo does concentrate its techniques on groundwork, but all the techniques are from the Kodokan. They have managed to specialize in escape and holding to not allow escapes. This obviously includes kansetzu waza and shime waza, as well.


Then, when Kano saw how Fusen Ryu used the techniques, it was sort of a wake-up call and from thereon he placed more emphasis on them? If that is the jist of what you're saying, then I would say that Fusen Ryu is *not* one of the major roots of judo (not that it didn't have an influence, as it obviously did, but in the sense of providing techniques), at least not nearly as much as Kito Ryu and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu.


You can say it like that, and fusen ryu definitely didn't have an impact as stated by Orlando. Kano was also exposed to western catch wrestling (free style) and may be the reason he replaced the nage waza tsuri otoshi with kata Guruma at the last minute, but it is conjecture.


Yes, I have heard many times that Jikishan Ryu was the first to coin the word "judo". However, more importantly (for my sake anyway), is whether or not Jikishan's judo had a major influence on Kano's, not just whether or not they happened to use the same name. From what I have gathered, it sounds like it wasn't that important. Any idea?


It was more than the term, the descriptions of this school's styles, and its closeness to kito-ryu is another reason. It was the first ryu to practice Ran (Randori) as a major learning system. Since Kano had refined jujutsu to such a point, he wasn't comportable with Kodokan-ryu jujutsu or any other similar name which were used, probably until WWII, even though it was changed. The systems value as a way of life and contained some of the principles on which he founded Kodokan judo also made Kano's jujutsu more like the judo of jikishin, thus the term judo. Jujutsu is what one learns on the way to achieving judo. I don't think it was the term per se, but that it described Kano's dreams for what turned out to be the salvation of many older ryuha of jujutsu.


This is a given. Of course any new style of martial art has its own unique creations from the founder himself. However, in addition to any unique influences, my goal is to find out which ryu directly influenced judo.

I actually found an interesting article:

http://martialarts.boom.ru/judo.html

Unfortunately, the author (Steven R. Cunningham) puts no weight on how much each one influenced judo. If he were to give them some sort of weight (even as vague as major versus minor influence), the article would contain exactly what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, he does not and so I'm still not sure.


Cunningham's article is an old one he based on what he claims were "kuden" or oral transmissions to him. If you go to the bottom of that page you will find he qualifies his brief history, and his aiki connection to judo is, IMO, just plain wrong. You could join (if you haven't already, the Judo-L and ask Steven himself for his thoughts since that article was published, at the very latest, 1999), I just don't happen to agree with all of it, but it is very short and does contain some basics. You may want to do a search of the Judo forum for old threads on this subject. The only person who was thought to bring aiki technique to his judo at the Kodokan was Shiro Saigo, but he was fourteen when he arrived at the Kodokan and sixteen when he competed for the Kodokan. He simply could not have brought much in that way since there is no proof that he studied it. The connection just doesn't hold water. He left the Kodokan and studied and taught swimming and kyujutsu and never returned.

See the film/video called Sanshiro Sugata (judo saga). While it is a novel it is a thinly-veiled story based on Saigo Shiro. If you read Japanese, the novel is available. There are on English translations of the book...yet. There are some opinions you may find on line concerning that book. The original film from 1943 is avaiable on tape, though the sound is horrible, it is subtitled in English.

Check out the Koshiki no kata of Kodokan Judo which was originally done in armor (I may be repeating myself but I haven't gone back to check) as it is referred to as the Kito-ryu no kata, as well. If you really wish to nail it down, Kitoryu and tenshin shin'yo are the two Kano received menjo in.

If judo was a big influence on your aiki jujutsu roots, it isn't known by anyone I would consider a scholar on the subject, but I assume you are also asking in the Aiki Jujutsu forum here on E-budo? More answers may be culled from reading its posts and asking some questions there. My cualification concerning aiki is that it has always been present in judo, but not as a collection of technique.

JD, I hope this explains it a little more to your satisfaction, but if seems lately that I haven't had the time to respond in detail. Anyway, I do hope it helps nail down your lineage.


Orlando,
Yes, Phil has his hands in a little bit of everything. The funny thing is that as an experienced judo man, he all ready knows the same katamewaza of the Kosen dojo which, at best, are extentions of Kodokan Judo. The old saying applies here: "If it is judo, it is Kodokan, and if Kodokan, it is judo." There is no other style of judo, but there are many who have specialized in certain technique. Kosen dojo is one.

He is also the President of the Board of Regents of a phony martial arts school selling degree programs, of the World College of Martial Science. You can find the thread in Baffling budo.

I appreciate the headsup on O-Phil. These days my fingers burn when I go to his web site.;)

Joe Svinth posted a link to an aricle written by Donn Draeger in which he is not so quietly mentioning Phil, at least by his actions. The article seemed to be edited heavily by a "researcher and editor" with questionable tools, and may be some of the reason why it is wrong. It is in one of the recent threads.

Donn had mentioned Porter by name concerning what he is doing with his organization (not the USMAA, obviously). It may have been that article as when I read it, it seemed very suspicios that way. Draeger hasn't been wrong about much, especially as a very good judoka, amongst all of his considerable talent and all too short life.
*******


Mark

PS: I have to get a couple of hours of sleep for work tomorrow afternoon.:confused:

PPS: Sorry I mentioned something Martin had stated in his reply. I did read it but was in a hurry at that time. My apologies, Martin.

[vadrip]

I found an interesting link related to all of this at http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/sensei6.html, take notice especially on the fusen ryu comment about something I was referring earlier in an above post.

[lemalin66]

Hello again JD

The article you mentioned martialarts.boom.ru.judo/htlm states daito ryu as existing in 1532 or so. You must know that there is a lot of controversy regarding daito ryu. Historians does not acknowledge or accept the theory pretending the existence of that ryu or Takeda ryu as soon as the 12th century due to the fact that there is a lack of documents proving so. They have the tendency to believe that Takeda Sokaku is the real founder of that style. It has nothing to do with its efficiency or qualities whatsoever.

I believe it is also wrong to consider Saigo Shiro as a ju jutsu or aiki jutsu when he joined Kano Jigoro due to his young age at the time.

Martin Durette

[Ben_Holmes]

Regarding Daito Ryu and Shiro Saigo, I've written an article on the subject... go to http://www.bestjudo.com and take a look at article #15.

[MarkF]

Sorry Ben, I have that article bookmarked and should have mentioned it. It is certainly one of the more accurate descriptions of Saigo Shiro.


Mark