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Shoki
18th December 2002, 21:11
Anyone out there ever fought with a shinai against a naginata equivalent.....if so what were the strenghs/weaknesses of the naginata.

I have seen photos etc of such matches but have never heard from someone as actually having fought against one.
Just out of interest...

Regards

Rob Anderson

Budoka 34
19th December 2002, 12:36
Rob,

While I'm not an official student(yet)of JSA I have played against naginata.

I purchased a naginata for my wife last year. We conducted a short play session for the neighbors.:D Hakama and all!

I was taken by surprise! My wife (who has a background in Kobudo) kicked by tush! If I stayed out, she used the length to make cuts and slashes to my legs and grion. If I closed she defended with the shaft and then attacked my belly and neck with the blade!

The worst was when I tried to deflect the blade up and away, she swept my foot with the shaft and then went to town on my head!

The neighbors laughed their a$$es off. :D

We both agreed then, if we ever have accese to a Koryu naginata school, we are there!

btw- Take a look at Ellis Amdur's "Old School" lots of good stuff there about Koryu sword vs naginata.

:smilejapa

R A Sosnowski
19th December 2002, 17:00
Shoki wrote:


Anyone out there ever fought with a shinai against a naginata equivalent.....if so what were the strenghs/weaknesses of the naginata.

Naginata strengths: length (making it harder to get in with the shorter Shinai), ability to strike Sune, that is, the shin (Kendo-ka are unfamiliar with Gedan no Kamae), ability to use both ends to strike and thrust.

Naginata weaknesses: length (there is very little offence inside of the effective range, which can be breeched with some difficulty; Koryu Kata in Tendo Ryu have an interesting way to deal with this).

Nito Kendo players stand the best change against the Naginata as they can engage the Naginata with the Shoto, get inside of the effective range, and then strike (score a hit) with the Daito.

Issho Jidai, in this case, Kendo Shinai vs. Shiai Naginata, has been demonstrated at the Guelph (Ontario) School of Japanese Arts in 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2002. Kata from Atarashii (New) Naginata and Tendo Ryu Naginata-jutsu have also been demonstrated. Workshops in both styles have been given there (I assisted in 1998, 1999 and 2000).

Budoka 34 wrote:


I purchased a naginata for my wife last year. We conducted a short play session for the neighbors. Hakama and all!

I was taken by surprise! My wife (who has a background in Kobudo) kicked by tush! If I stayed out, she used the length to make cuts and slashes to my legs and grion. If I closed she defended with the shaft and then attacked my belly and neck with the blade!

The worst was when I tried to deflect the blade up and away, she swept my foot with the shaft and then went to town on my head!

I am not surprised at all. :D Got videotape? :laugh:


We both agreed then, if we ever have accese to a Koryu naginata school, we are there!

btw- Take a look at Ellis Amdur's "Old School" lots of good stuff there about Koryu sword vs naginata.

Koryu Naginata in the US is extremely rare. I have limited experience training in Tendo Ryu Naginata-Jutsu (I am a US member of Shingetsukai, the Tendo Ryu organization in Japan); I have to travel for instruction - I can count the number of qualified people on the fingers of one hand. Either send me a PM or use the ECNF contact information (http://www.ecnf.org/ecnf/contact.htm) if you are interested in either Atarashii (New) Naginata or Tendo Ryu - as the Administrative Secretary and a co-founder of the East Coast Naginata Federation, a regional member of the USNF, I have the contact info. on hand.

Ellis' new book is wonderful. His Naginata articles are reprinted from the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. After the initial publication of "Women Warriors of Japan," I contacted him to see if he had figures of other Kata from Tendo Ryu as he had included a figure of the first Kata, Ichi Monji no Midare, in the article; unfortunately, he did not.

There are also two interviews with Koryu Naginata-ka in the Skoss' books, Koryu Bujutsu (1997) and Keiko Shokon (2002) [BTW, Ellis also has an essay in each text too], and one with an Atarashii Naginata-ka in Sharp Spear, Crystal Mirror: Martial Arts in Women's Lives by Stephanie T. Hoppe (who happens to be the USNF Treasurer), published by Park Street Press, Rochester, VT, in 1998.

Sawada Hanae of the Tendo Ryu is interviewed in Koryu Bujutsu, Nitta Suzuyo, soke of Toda-ha Buko Ryu, in Keiko Shokon, and Malyne Hazard (formerly Chiu), Naginata Renshi and Kendo Godan, and USNF Executive Secretary, in Sharp Spear, Crystal Mirror.

FWIW, I have also published several articles on Atarashii Naginata and Tendo Ryu seminars in the US and Canada in the now-defunct Journal of Japanese Sword Arts in the 1997-2000 time frame.

HTH.

Bruce Mitchell
19th December 2002, 17:16
Hello,
I really enjoyed your story. While I am a firm believer in seeking excellent instruction in any art one takes up, I also appreciate stories from anyone who has the gusto to to grab a weapon and give it a go (within reason).

I have participated in naginata vs. kendo matches, but from the naginata side. I have also watched a number of these matches. They are actually common, if not frequent.

The person fighting with the naginata has a serious advantage for several reasons. Of course the length of the weapon is a big one. The person using the naginata can switch hands/sides at will. The speed of the weapon can be suprising if you are unfamiliar with it. The naginta also allows the practitioner to use the "ha" (blade) and the "ishizuki" (but end) of the weapon. The "e-bu" (shaft)can also be used for blocking. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, naginata shiai offers more targets than kendo by adding the lower legs. Kendoka are often unaccustomed to this.

A swordsman's best bet is to close the distance and neutralize the advantages that the long weapon has. It is also generally harder to use a long weapon at close distance. Many Naginata Koryu have specific techniques to deal with the possibility, that include the use of auxillary weapons. But since those aren't used in matches I will leave that out of the discussion.

I would say that in at least 80% of the matches that I have seen and participated in the "win" went to the person using the naginata. Although I have seen some Kendoka who were truly amazing (one guy scored do-uchi on me that knocked my socks off). Kendo who are experienced in these kinds of matches look to close the distance as quickly as possible, and generally fare better.

These matches are tons of fun, and I hope to participate in more in the future.

DCPan
19th December 2002, 17:28
> Naginata weaknesses: length (there is very little offence inside of > the effective range, which can be breeched with some difficulty;
> Koryu Kata in Tendo Ryu have an interesting way to deal with this).

I don't understand. I haven't used a naginata, but it seems like that much like a jo or a bo, you could choke up the shaft and have a variety of maai not available to the sword...though you may not have much leverage in some situations, you can always trip the guy with it if you can't hit him hard enough.

At the children's day in LA, I saw a demo where the naginata guy struck the kendo person's leg at tsuba-zeriai. I don't know if that ashi-barai was a valid strike or not, but it looked like it hurt :D

I don't know the criteria for a valid hit in naginata, but it seems like at the range where you can't get a valid hit with a naginata, you would also be too close for a valid kendo strike (itto).

What is the "effective" range of the naginata?

Is the "interesting" way in Tendo Ryu the kata where you discard the naginata and draw the kodachi?

Thanks!

R A Sosnowski
19th December 2002, 20:08
DCPan wrote:


I don't understand. I haven't used a naginata, but it seems like that much like a jo or a bo, you could choke up the shaft and have a variety of maai not available to the sword...though you may not have much leverage in some situations, you can always trip the guy with it if you can't hit him hard enough.

Movements of the Naginata are based on the Katana, Yari and Bo. There is not a variety of Ma as effective placement of the hands on the E-bu (shaft) is somewhat fixed.

Tripping is not allowed in Atarashii Naginata Jigeiko and Shiai. ;)


At the children's day in LA, I saw a demo where the naginata guy struck the kendo person's leg at tsuba-zeriai. I don't know if that ashi-barai was a valid strike or not, but it looked like it hurt

Yes, it is valid. And it would hurt a lot more if it weren't for Sune-ate (shin guards). :D



I don't know the criteria for a valid hit in naginata, but it seems like at the range where you can't get a valid hit with a naginata, you would also be too close for a valid kendo strike (itto).

Not quite true. The principles for a valid point are the same as in Kendo; the execution, especially in the manner of exhibiting Zanshin, differs.

There are basically four zones here. In the longest range, neither weapon can be used effectively as neither one can reach a target. A little closer in is the range of the Naginata. A little closer in still is the range of the Shinai. Anything closer in than that renders both weapons ineffective (it would be grappling-time, if that were allowed).

There is a bit of an overlap between the effective Shinai range and the effective Naginata range, depending on the targets and the body dimensions of the individuals.


What is the "effective" range of the naginata?

Where the Mono-uchi or the Kissaki impact the target (same as in Kendo) while in the proper Kamae. These targets include Shomen & Sokumen, Do, Kote, Sune, and Tsuki to the throat. Unfortunately, this is a bit difficult to describe without some visual aids.


Is the "interesting" way in Tendo Ryu the kata where you discard the naginata and draw the kodachi?

Yes, it is - I am looking forward to learning that one. :D Actually there is more than one form like that.

BTW, Bruce Mitchell, a fellow practitioner of Atarashii Naginata and Tendo Ryu, also makes note of another asset in Naginata: Mochikae - the ability to change sides. In fact, this aspect is reflected in the design of the Naginata Kote - it has a split mitt (Kendo Kote have a single mitt since there is no grip changing).

HTH.

Shoki
19th December 2002, 22:40
Thanks for the replies......I always imagined that in a skillful hand the naginata would be an amazing weapon.....

When fighting do you use all the kamae available or is it like kendo when most of the kamae is in judan or sometimes jodan,

regards

Rob Anderson

Dan Harden
19th December 2002, 23:24
Another important consideration and of interest is application and manipulation of power. Some arts use the Naginata closer toward the end- others in the middle. Of the various grips offered the adept by gripping in the middle the transition speed can be fast-surprisingly so. With the body and hips driving the weapon- and not the shoulders or arms- you can make very rapid reversals to re-engage at close range. Of courss this is advantagous to using both ends to hit stab or slice, but mores the point it allows you to depress, control or cut to the inner thighs under the arms and up to suigetsu in a controled manner similar to sword work. I think that sometimes people think it is a all-or-nothing, slow moving but powerful weapon and donot expect the rapid changes and cutting angles available that are backed up by the power of the size and wieght.

The blades are powerful even when unmounted, I have used ones I forged myself to cut very hard targets with duct tape wrapped nakago. There is a logic to the various shapes and blade curves in cutting.

cheers
Dan

R A Sosnowski
20th December 2002, 00:05
When fighting do you use all the kamae available or is it like kendo when most of the kamae is in judan or sometimes jodan,

Chudan is the primary Kamae; you start and end there. A few advanced people use Jodan - it usually confuses the heck out of opponents; however, it is also quite vulnerable as well, so quick responses are the order of the day. :)

However, during Jigeiko and Shiai, other Kamae are also used including Gedan and Hasso. You can launch a wicked Tsuki from Gedan which usually takes your opponent completely by surprise. :D

HTH.

Bruce Mitchell
20th December 2002, 01:00
Hello,
Ray Sasnowski makes some great points in his post. I would have to respectfully disagree with his statement that the "movements of the naginata are based on the katana, the yari and the bo" (Sorry Ray)

Evidence suggest that early naginata may merely have been tachi mounted on a long shaft. Although the exact origin of the naginata is unknown.

The naginata, as a weapon predates the Katana, although not the Yari or the Bo (heck, sticks kind of predate every thing short of rocks, which can also cause a good bit of damage). However, I have not come across much written material that describes the use of the Bo as a battlefield weapon during the period in which the naginata arose. During this period the use of yumi, tachi and naginata were most prominent. The tachi at this time was primarily used from horseback, while early written records suggest that the naginata was used on foot, against mounted warriors.

From the morphology of the blade we can draw fairly clear conclusions about it's use historically. A curved blade is not ideally suited for thrusting. Many early naginata also have very long tangs, which suggest that they were used for cutting, rather than thrusting. Therefore I would question the relationship betwen the yari and naginata as far as usage goes. There is also historical evidence which suggest that the yari supplanted the naginata as a battlefield weapon (Bieri; "Naginata:The Japanese Halberd {part II}; hoplos, December 1994, vol4, #3).

I can quite easily imagine that later on down the road that methods of using the sword (in whatever form, tachi, katana, etc), spear and Bo may have influenced the techniques of the naginata, but I have not heard this theory put forth before.

Lastly, tenouchi (the use of the hands in gripping) is an intergral factor in the use of the naginata. So while the naginata most definetly has a range at which it is most effective, closer distances can be accomidated for by "choking-up" on the naginata. Different schools also emphasize gripping the naginata in different positions. Some schools emphasize holding the naginata towards the center of the weapon while other schools look to maximize on the full lenght of the weapon and grip it towards the end.

R A Sosnowski
20th December 2002, 20:12
Hi Bruce,


Ray Sasnowski makes some great points in his post. I would have to respectfully disagree with his statement that the "movements of the naginata are based on the katana, the yari and the bo" (Sorry Ray)

That is actually from a quote for which I have not been able to quickly find the reference - after a year in MD I still have a garage AND a basement full of boxes, mostly magazines, journals, and photocopied articles, not to mention material I have misplaced in the new house already. :laugh:

As I recall, that quote was not meant to be a historical representation of the development of Naginata, but an analysis of the motions used in Naginata, particularly Atarashii Naginata. I apologize for the confusion.

Cheers. :beer: :toast: :beer:

Brian Stokes
20th December 2002, 22:07
Hi Rob,

The last time I was in Japan I challanged my Soke, Katsuse Yoshimitsu Kagehiro of the Suio Ryu, me with a naginata, he with a shinai. (We did switch sides but that was absolutely pathetic.) I didn't last too long. Without getting into to much detail he quickly defeated me, holding his blade with one hand. I will say however, that the naginata is a fearsome weapon and I would be loathe to face one without a correspondingly lengthy weapon in my own hands (or one that fires some sort of missle).


Brian Stokes